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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Utility-Based AI and EverQuest Next

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67 posts found
  Utinni

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/13
Posts: 358

9/08/13 11:50:12 AM#41

Still waiting to see this in action over time. The fact that all of this has to be written in code and things will still have triggers lead me to believe you'll still have scripted fights on a basic level. It's still an algorithm, which is inherently "step-by-step" thus being predictable.

I'd be more worried about their reasoning for all this. They honestly think tanks, healers, and support don't have fun and would rather be DPSing.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3552

9/08/13 12:03:07 PM#42
Originally posted by Utinni

Still waiting to see this in action over time. The fact that all of this has to be written in code and things will still have triggers lead me to believe you'll still have scripted fights on a basic level. It's still an algorithm, which is inherently "step-by-step" thus being predictable.

I'd be more worried about their reasoning for all this. They honestly think tanks, healers, and support don't have fun and would rather be DPSing.

     Exactly..  People can keep calling it whatever they want..  CODE is CODE.. The fight will either be scripted by code, or it will be random.. If it is scripted by code then players will learn that code and use it against the mobs.. So we are right back to square one...... If the fights are random, then smart AI is just smoke and mirrors..  Toss this in with all the twitch non tab targeting.. I would be greatly surprised to see medium size audience after a year..   

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

9/08/13 12:39:30 PM#43
Originally posted by Utinni

Still waiting to see this in action over time. The fact that all of this has to be written in code and things will still have triggers lead me to believe you'll still have scripted fights on a basic level. It's still an algorithm, which is inherently "step-by-step" thus being predictable.

I'd be more worried about their reasoning for all this. They honestly think tanks, healers, and support don't have fun and would rather be DPSing.

I believe its the opposite. DPS alone is not a role. Everyone gets to do that in addition to other things at the same time.

you pretty much have to do it that way these days because so few play the dedicated roles.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

9/08/13 12:42:13 PM#44
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Utinni

Still waiting to see this in action over time. The fact that all of this has to be written in code and things will still have triggers lead me to believe you'll still have scripted fights on a basic level. It's still an algorithm, which is inherently "step-by-step" thus being predictable.

I'd be more worried about their reasoning for all this. They honestly think tanks, healers, and support don't have fun and would rather be DPSing.

     Exactly..  People can keep calling it whatever they want..  CODE is CODE.. The fight will either be scripted by code, or it will be random.. If it is scripted by code then players will learn that code and use it against the mobs.. So we are right back to square one...... If the fights are random, then smart AI is just smoke and mirrors..  Toss this in with all the twitch non tab targeting.. I would be greatly surprised to see medium size audience after a year..   

expect there to be as much clothes as armor in this game. Expect there to be as much crafting and building as combat. Expect perfect world meets minecraft meets everquest meets wow.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

9/08/13 1:37:38 PM#45

I actually quite like twitch-based combat; the most fun I had in a fantasy-based mmorpg over last years was playing a double-knuckle warrior in Allods-online - no targeting, just arc of damage. Man, did I have fun! So, twitch-based is quite allright with me, provided it has no lag and smallest ping possible (like Allods for me).

 

And utility-based AI may be quite ingenious and fun too... But! And it's a big great but. If it's custom-tweaked for every encounter, with all those weights and rules. And that's a LOT of coding time and testing for every mob, for every thinkable combination of groups. We are speaking weeks for one single boss here, at least, for a group of highly-paid programmers. And storybricks will not help here, like they may help for macro-AI in the world interaction.

 

Whole "threat generation mechanics" were invented specifically to create a system which would work, more or less, for most mobs for most parties for most encounters, thus reducing the time needed for tweaking each and every mob, or at least boss, for each and every situation.

 

I don't see here anything that will make the AI in any way better than GW2 AI whatsoever. In fact, I'm betting the AI programmers will go the same way here (because it's the only actually reasonable way to go, based on where they started and where they want to go), and the AI will be very close in its behavior.

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 1108

9/08/13 3:28:12 PM#46
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Allein
Originally posted by Rydeson

     Smart AI has been around for ages..  It's nothing new.. AI is nothing more then programming the actions of the mob..  Most games choose to go "simple" where as other games allow "complex" or advanced AI.. This is just like playing strategy games..  Civ 5?  C&C?..  Players are given options to go simple or go "god" mode if they wish..  Players will ALWAYS find the best way to expose the weakness in AI codes and use it to defeat it..  Then what?  Make the code so hard that 80% of your customer base says "SCREW THIS SHIT".. and moves on..  People talk about playing a GAME for fun, but if you code the AI too high, then it's no longer fun to the masses, it's becomes more like a job.. 

     In conclusion.. The smart AI "HAS" to remain stupid for the masses.. So why bother?  Think about it..

Or they could have simple to "god" mode mobs and cater to everyone? With a huge world to explore, it is reasonable to believe that some/most players will not see everything nor beat it all.

WoW's high end raids were only completed by a very small percentage of players (out of millions), yet they still had millions playing. MILLIONS played it because the general open world AI was was stupid.. The hard raids were instanced..  HUGE difference..

I don't see why? EQN could still have mainly "dumb" AI in Tier 1-2 and then have Tier 3-4 be much harder, with a sprinkling of various degrees of difficulty in each (mobs that could one hit you in the Commonlands). 

That has since changed, but it was effective for many years. Add in numerous new things to do in the game beyond just mob grinding and raiding and people will stick around for a while. This remains to be seen.. None of us have any insider knowledge on what non-combat game play will be..

True, but they have given plenty of hints to what will be in the game. To make an educated guess.

Or just cater to only one part of the community and make everything the exact same difficulty, seems to have worked for many games... But you are asking them to "cater" to your desire of game play..  Double Standards? I have yet to hear anything from SOE about EQN cater to everyone.. EQN is going niche as well..

Guess I forgot the /s tag... Almost all games cater to everyone, difficulty wise. They have said that the while the AI will be "smart" there will be a scale of "intelligence." A random Orc may just swing at you mindlessly, but the Orc Chief may have a whole bag of tricks to choose from. Tiers will vary in difficult which sounds like an attempt to cater to a large audience. No clue how EQN will be niche if it is trying to cater to a wide variety of play styles. 

     If EQN wished to attract the masses it MUST be programmed for the lowest denominator.. PURE and SIMPLE and never open for discussion..  If the new smart AI offends too many customers, it will result in a very small niche game, or it will be tweaked down to dummy mode.. You mention "gode" mode mobs. UMmm.. EQ did that with dragons, and GW2 does that with open world bosses and both ended up being ZERGED..   It is what it is..  As the old sales slogan goes..  EQN is trying to sell the "sizzle" , and we have yet to see the steak..... Get the idea?

Again, all they have to do and what they've basically said they are doing, is have a scale of AI "smartness" that will allow for anyone to find something to do in a massive world.

As I've said to other Zerg comments, simple solution, don't reward people for doing so. Each mob should have a suggested player number attached to it and if it is exceeded, give no reward or one greatly reduced. On top of having non-static spawns to discourage a zerg of 50-100+ people running around the countryside killing everything in the way.

Risk vs Reward, reward those that actually play "fairly" even when it comes to mob slaying.

While some high end mobs were much harder then the regular trash, usually it was linked to massive amounts of HPs and hitting like a train. Not many have good AI that makes it a challenge. Just a set pattern (sometimes it is pretty tricky to figure out) to learn and then have the endurance to burn the mob down. EQN's AI may offer a lot more possibly. 

A large chunk of the game does need to cater to the "lowest denominator" in some form, but that doesn't mean it has to be content that the "highest denominator" doesn't want to experience either.

I might love Chess, that doesn't mean I have to hate Checkers.

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 1108

9/08/13 3:32:42 PM#47
Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by Allein
Originally posted by Grahor

Nothing new here.

*shrug* so far, nothing exciting at all.

The concepts may not be "new" but can you point me to a mmorpg that has them already or to the scale at which EQN may?

As with all things tech, I'm sure they are talked about and imagined long before anyone gets their hands on the finished product. Why you wouldn't be excited to see in action something you knew about 20 years ago is beyond me.

Every mmorpg uses the same methods to program the AI. "Threat generation" behavior in mmorpgs is programmed _absolutely the same way_, it's just that the mechanics of threat generations are added as rules to weighted behavior of monsters.

And it was done this way "because reasons" - because without additional rules and tweaking emergent AI quite often emerges either stupid and easily taken advantage of (say, a guy in a dress and with a magic wand in his hands gets "haste" from group-members and runs around screaming, while monster trying to attack him and everyone else just pounds the monster without any retaliation) or becomes boringly genius - say, the monster and all his minions focus their attacks on the healer no matter what, and it's a 100% wipe for a group, no way to overcome.

I see in action that "utility AI" in a lot of games and it's absolutely nothing special - it's how you implement rules what's important... and the descriptions given here are also nothing special: that's how every game programmer tries to implement his AI... but it has lots of limitations.

So, I'm not excited because what I read here is "we are going to make the same AI as everyone else have done everywhere, but ours will be totes better because reasons!" So no, I'm not excited until I see it.

Again can you point out some examples? I'm not doubting you, I just don't feel that I've played a mmorpg in the last 18 years that has what EQN is hinting at. It doesn't have to be ezmode kite until dead or hard mode, mobs kill everyone in 5 seconds because they can read your mind. There can be a balance and with enough "intelligence" programmed in along with an understanding of player expectations, I don't see why this won't be the case.

  Markusrind

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/22/13
Posts: 390

9/08/13 4:02:09 PM#48
Originally posted by Allein

Again can you point out some examples? I'm not doubting you, I just don't feel that I've played a mmorpg in the last 18 years that has what EQN is hinting at. It doesn't have to be ezmode kite until dead or hard mode, mobs kill everyone in 5 seconds because they can read your mind. There can be a balance and with enough "intelligence" programmed in along with an understanding of player expectations, I don't see why this won't be the case.

Yeah I would like some examples given too.

 

I cannot think of an MMO where an NPC ups their prices because you are friendly with his wife and he is Jealous. Or combat where, because you have killed a load of the mobs friends and are 'known' to them that they will target you. Or where mobs will move because the place they are doesn't have enough travellers on the road to attack.

All these things, unless you can provide examples, are new.

 

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

9/08/13 4:04:37 PM#49
Originally posted by Allein
Again can you point out some examples? I'm not doubting you, I just don't feel that I've played a mmorpg in the last 18 years that has what EQN is hinting at. It doesn't have to be ezmode kite until dead or hard mode, mobs kill everyone in 5 seconds because they can read your mind. There can be a balance and with enough "intelligence" programmed in along with an understanding of player expectations, I don't see why this won't be the case.

That's my point. I simply don't believe what EQN is hinting at. I don't believe that EQN AI would be in any way whatsoever different than any other AI - because while they are "hinting" and promising miracles and marvels, nothing that they actually show is in any way different than what was already done a thousand times.

 

If you want an example of "utility AI" implemented in recent games, you can check out Radiant AI, developed for Oblivion. You can also check the resulting hilarity (I think a lot of articles about that was titled "Radiant AI my a$$!") - even while it worked, and worked reasonably well, some emergent behavior was ranged from hilarious to ridiculous.

 

In any case, this AI haven't turned fights into miracles of sentience, "hinted at" by EQN devs.

 

If you want to see utility AI in mmorpg monsters - GW2 has it. If you want to say "yeah, but EQN is hinting at so much more" - they can hint at anything they want, but what we'll get is, at best, GW2 level AI, no more - simply because there are limitations on what can be done in reasonable time with reasonable manpower resources with current "utility AI" - and there is no indication whatsoever that EQN has anything esle in stores.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

9/08/13 4:15:34 PM#50
Originally posted by Markusrind

Yeah I would like some examples given too.

 

I cannot think of an MMO where an NPC ups their prices because you are friendly with his wife and he is Jealous. Or combat where, because you have killed a load of the mobs friends and are 'known' to them that they will target you. Or where mobs will move because the place they are doesn't have enough travellers on the road to attack.

All these things, unless you can provide examples, are new.

 

I'm talking about fight AI. What you describe is the world/story AI, which is where StoryBricks (supposedly) comes to play; what you describe is routinely done for any single-player RPG out there and is NOT done for MMORPGS because implementing it requires big tables of relationships for each and every player in the world, loaded from database servers at every interaction with the player character. 

 

Database connections and processing are one of the Great Bottlenecks of any MMORPG; implementation of such relationships is routine (as shows the example of single player rpgs); pushing that implementation through Database Connection Bottleneck is next to impossible.

 

Well, we have, of course, the example of EvE, where at least player's reputation with factions is taken into account and is, obviously, influenced by player's actions, but if EQN is planning on implementing something more complex than that (which I don't believe in), I expect quite serious lags in database connections.

 

But I may be wrong here, and it is quite possible that EQN has the solution for database lag, for the bottleneck here is not an AI implementation (which is trivial, as, again, is shown in any single player rpb since before Fallout), but database connections.

  Amaranthar

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

9/08/13 5:00:55 PM#51
Originally posted by IADaveMark

Wow... is it always like this around here? Some of you folks amuse me, some inspire me, some sadden me. And some of you... well... I don't know what to think.

Regardless, thanks for all the interest -- even the speculation and skepticism. Wish I could tell you more. 

Soon.

You'll notice your post pretty much got skipped over under the weight of arguments. THAT'S what it's like around here. Heh.

I hope you all do open up, soon, and a lot. PR schemes suck. I mean, what, a year or more of this crap based on the lack of info? The negativity will prosper, and there will be none to wage the battle for your side because they don't have ammo. And promises don't do it, hard info on mechanics do.

Once upon a time....

  andre369

Elite Member

Joined: 8/06/06
Posts: 842

9/08/13 5:11:27 PM#52
Originally posted by Rydeson

Dear OP.. 

     KUDO's on a well written article explaining your position on AI..  However.....  Regardless what you call the type of AI, from a players perspective the combat encounter will either be controlled or random (aka chaotic)..  Each have their own pros and cons, depending on your preference of play..  Using the common example of class roles vs. smart AI.. If we are using roles, each person has restrictive duties to fill, whether it be tanking, crowd control, healing, DPS, etc etc..  With this form of combat the encounter is often controlled by the players, such as mezing, taunting..  The players have the ability to control the fight of who is killed, and in what order.. (normally).. There is nothing wrong with this type of play.. Professional sports have used roles for decades..

     Then we have smart AI, where the MOB is so called in control of it's actions.. At this point, the players are unable to dictate the fight.. Instead the players must go into "response" mode.. This is more chaotic then what most want to accept or admit.. Given the fact that a smart AI will sometimes target soft targets (isn't that their purpose?), you either have to make the soft target durable enough to withstand a beating, or give them abilities to avoid damage.. What you normally end up with as this point are classes that are all able to mitigate damage, and often the best playstyle once that happens is zerg.. Except a few encounters that devs might require more strategy, but this will have to be isolated (instanced?).. Once the combat is out in the open, it's the players vs. the mobs as it is in GW2 and other games..

     The 3 mobs too smart to defeat by 2 players, go get some buddies and make it a 5 on 3 fight then.. ZERG.. Power of numbers will always trump smart AI..  But that doesn't mean that smart AI is wrong either..  They are just 2 different styles , hamburger or hot dog.... I prefer burgers myself..

     IMO the smart AI is to simulate PvP type of mechanics, which also encompasses MOBA games.. I don't enjoy that type of gaming, it's why I never played Call of Duty, and don't care for Planetside or LoL..  For me a trinity style is like playing football, whereas smart AI is like playing rugby.. 

     NCAA football for the win... I hope Johnny Football wins the Heisman again, just to upset the critics.. LOL

From what I've read/ listened to. Smart AI does not mean that they will excell in combat.

 

It's like GW2 taken three steps further. Instead of scripted DE's the mobs will "script their own" DE's based on factors. So If you have a large zerg that is constantly farming a orc camp. The orcs will move away to a area where there are less players/smaller towns. 

Lets just hope they pull it off. As for combat AI, thats a whole other area than the AI that decides where mobs will spawn, what they will atack and when to retreat.

GW2 has quests that are triggered at certain time intervals and players talking to NPCs. Leading into new quests.

All events in GW2 are pretty much like this

> 1 2 3 2 1.  

Look at the numbers as players vs mobs. It's a line of events that go back and forth. Theres no real dynamic in them. Just a repeatable quest line that goes from 1 where the players are pushed back/start of the event, to 3 where the enemies have been pushed as far as it gets. Then a new event will trigger where the mobs try to push back to event 2 then to 1. 

What they want EQN to have, is for the mobs to respond to the players and other factors. Not the other way around. 

I dunno, thats the impression I have of their AI, or atleast what they want it to be.

Not sure if this came out the way I visioned it in my mind but oh well.

 

  Amaranthar

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

9/08/13 5:32:16 PM#53
Originally posted by andre369
Originally posted by Rydeson

Dear OP.. 

     KUDO's on a well written article explaining your position on AI..  However.....  Regardless what you call the type of AI, from a players perspective the combat encounter will either be controlled or random (aka chaotic)..  Each have their own pros and cons, depending on your preference of play..  Using the common example of class roles vs. smart AI.. If we are using roles, each person has restrictive duties to fill, whether it be tanking, crowd control, healing, DPS, etc etc..  With this form of combat the encounter is often controlled by the players, such as mezing, taunting..  The players have the ability to control the fight of who is killed, and in what order.. (normally).. There is nothing wrong with this type of play.. Professional sports have used roles for decades..

     Then we have smart AI, where the MOB is so called in control of it's actions.. At this point, the players are unable to dictate the fight.. Instead the players must go into "response" mode.. This is more chaotic then what most want to accept or admit.. Given the fact that a smart AI will sometimes target soft targets (isn't that their purpose?), you either have to make the soft target durable enough to withstand a beating, or give them abilities to avoid damage.. What you normally end up with as this point are classes that are all able to mitigate damage, and often the best playstyle once that happens is zerg.. Except a few encounters that devs might require more strategy, but this will have to be isolated (instanced?).. Once the combat is out in the open, it's the players vs. the mobs as it is in GW2 and other games..

     The 3 mobs too smart to defeat by 2 players, go get some buddies and make it a 5 on 3 fight then.. ZERG.. Power of numbers will always trump smart AI..  But that doesn't mean that smart AI is wrong either..  They are just 2 different styles , hamburger or hot dog.... I prefer burgers myself..

     IMO the smart AI is to simulate PvP type of mechanics, which also encompasses MOBA games.. I don't enjoy that type of gaming, it's why I never played Call of Duty, and don't care for Planetside or LoL..  For me a trinity style is like playing football, whereas smart AI is like playing rugby.. 

     NCAA football for the win... I hope Johnny Football wins the Heisman again, just to upset the critics.. LOL

From what I've read/ listened to. Smart AI does not mean that they will excell in combat.

 

It's like GW2 taken three steps further. Instead of scripted DE's the mobs will "script their own" DE's based on factors. So If you have a large zerg that is constantly farming a orc camp. The orcs will move away to a area where there are less players/smaller towns. 

Lets just hope they pull it off. As for combat AI, thats a whole other area than the AI that decides where mobs will spawn, what they will atack and when to retreat.

GW2 has quests that are triggered at certain time intervals and players talking to NPCs. Leading into new quests.

All events in GW2 are pretty much like this

> 1 2 3 2 1.  

Look at the numbers as players vs mobs. It's a line of events that go back and forth. Theres no real dynamic in them. Just a repeatable quest line that goes from 1 where the players are pushed back/start of the event, to 3 where the enemies have been pushed as far as it gets. Then a new event will trigger where the mobs try to push back to event 2 then to 1. 

What they want EQN to have, is for the mobs to respond to the players and other factors. Not the other way around. 

I dunno, thats the impression I have of their AI, or atleast what they want it to be.

Not sure if this came out the way I visioned it in my mind but oh well.

 

I'm hoping they go farther than this sort of overall game plan, and add AI into the fighting. Not just a possible retreat after beat downs, but possible retreats in the middle of a fight. They can also have "retreat to defensive position" of they mark those positions. They can also have randomized but weighted reactions of spell casters, do they heal a companion MOB and when. (Does that spell casting MOB even like it's companions that much?) (Does it hate a player enough?) Do archers all attack anyone who attacks their healer(s)? Do they set traps on the ground as they retreat, or do they fire attacks or heals?

The whole point, in my mind, should be to randomize the NPC "choices", but maintain some form of "intelligence" to them. Maybe with a Faux Pas here and there, after all, wouldn't that just be "realistic"?

Once upon a time....

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 1108

9/08/13 8:54:35 PM#54

Originally posted by Grahor

That's my point. I simply don't believe what EQN is hinting at. I don't believe that EQN AI would be in any way whatsoever different than any other AI - because while they are "hinting" and promising miracles and marvels, nothing that they actually show is in any way different than what was already done a thousand times.

If you want to see utility AI in mmorpg monsters - GW2 has it. If you want to say "yeah, but EQN is hinting at so much more" - they can hint at anything they want, but what we'll get is, at best, GW2 level AI, no more - simply because there are limitations on what can be done in reasonable time with reasonable manpower resources with current "utility AI" - and there is no indication whatsoever that EQN has anything esle in stores.

This where I am on the other side of the fence. I believe the devs for the most part and think they are really trying to bring something new to the genre, maybe not mind blowing, but at least a bit more creative then what has been. Could I be proven wrong, yes, I'm not an blind fool. I'm just trusting them until I have a reason not to. To basically call them liars (which many tend to do) and that it is all just hype, does have some merit, but isn't any more insightful then those that choose to believe.

They could be completely lying, but I don't see the point in it. They aren't making vague statements about AI. They are flat out saying and describing it as something we haven't seen before. They have given clear examples to get our imaginations going. Which will either turn out to be truth or a lie, they aren't leaving themselves a lot of grey or back peddling room.

As far as GW2 is concerned, I don't remember anything that was "new" or outside the norm of AI I have seen from the last 18 years. Didn't help that everything was Zerged to death, but never did I go "Woah, what did that mob just do." Honestly, GW2 is one of the easiest PVE games I've ever played and never felt really challenged. Which is why I think a lot of people dislike it, most of the PVE requires no teamwork or effort beyond DPS DPS DPS. Which is the exact opposite of how the devs are explaining EQN's combat.

Originally posted by Grahor

But I may be wrong here, and it is quite possible that EQN has the solution for database lag, for the bottleneck here is not an AI implementation (which is trivial, as, again, is shown in any single player rpb since before Fallout), but database connections.

They again have stated that the game will remember what players do and actions will follow them through the lifetime of a character. Maybe you don't know how they are able to do it, but it seems they do and have a way where data can be collected from all actions and be accessed all the time. This has been done to some degree in single player games, so nothing too ground breaking, but it would appear they have figured out how to bring this concept to the mmo world. Only time will tell how well it works out. The concept of voxels and a destructible world didn't seem possible a short time ago as well.

Really it boils down to your first comment. If you don't have any faith in the devs and what they are clearly saying EQN will be like, then there is not further discussion. I have some faith in SOE (against my best gamer judgment) and until they do something to change my mind, I will keep believing in them. You are free to continue disbelieving them, but it seems silly to follow a game/company that you believe is misguiding or lying to customers.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

9/09/13 2:25:31 AM#55
Originally posted by Allein

Really it boils down to your first comment. If you don't have any faith in the devs and what they are clearly saying EQN will be like, then there is not further discussion. I have some faith in SOE (against my best gamer judgment) and until they do something to change my mind, I will keep believing in them. You are free to continue disbelieving them, but it seems silly to follow a game/company that you believe is misguiding or lying to customers.

You know, I wanted to answer your post, but then I've thought - why bother? You've completely missed or misunderstood all my points, you'll just do the same with my reply. I'll just add that first, I don't follow EQN and is not really interested in it - there is a nifty feature "recent posts" on the front page, and the words "AI" caught my eye, which is the pretty much only thing that interests me; and second, I actually read what developers say, while you read what you want to hear into what they actually say. 

 

For example: "They again have stated that the game will remember what players do and actions will follow them through the lifetime of a character." - yeah. And what does it actually means? Why, EvE's (and every other game which implements faction standings, say, Fallen Earth, Allods, you name it) does exactly that: whatever you do, every mob you kill, every mission you finish - game remebers it and it follows players through the lifetime of a character. So what _exactly_ groundbreaking have they said here?

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3552

9/09/13 2:51:04 AM#56
Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by Allein

Really it boils down to your first comment. If you don't have any faith in the devs and what they are clearly saying EQN will be like, then there is not further discussion. I have some faith in SOE (against my best gamer judgment) and until they do something to change my mind, I will keep believing in them. You are free to continue disbelieving them, but it seems silly to follow a game/company that you believe is misguiding or lying to customers.

You know, I wanted to answer your post, but then I've thought - why bother? You've completely missed or misunderstood all my points, you'll just do the same with my reply. I'll just add that first, I don't follow EQN and is not really interested in it - there is a nifty feature "recent posts" on the front page, and the words "AI" caught my eye, which is the pretty much only thing that interests me; and second, I actually read what developers say, while you read what you want to hear into what they actually say. 

 

For example: "They again have stated that the game will remember what players do and actions will follow them through the lifetime of a character." - yeah. And what does it actually means? Why, EvE's (and every other game which implements faction standings, say, Fallen Earth, Allods, you name it) does exactly that: whatever you do, every mob you kill, every mission you finish - game remebers it and it follows players through the lifetime of a character. So what _exactly_ groundbreaking have they said here?

In deed.. even the original EQ was all about factions..  Everything you did either gained faction or pissed someone off..  I love games like that, and I hope EQN does it proper.. BUT, It isn't anything new, and to hype it with sugar is unneeded..  And as to Allein.. you mention you have faith until there is a reason not to.. Well.. I been around the block a few times, especially with SOE, so I have numermous reasons to not trust a single thing they say.. I have not met a dev yet that doesn't treat games as used cars and will sell anything to put food on that table.. 

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 4102

9/09/13 11:17:21 AM#57
Originally posted by Grahor
 

For example: "They again have stated that the game will remember what players do and actions will follow them through the lifetime of a character." - yeah. And what does it actually means? Why, EvE's (and every other game which implements faction standings, say, Fallen Earth, Allods, you name it) does exactly that: whatever you do, every mob you kill, every mission you finish - game remebers it and it follows players through the lifetime of a character. So what _exactly_ groundbreaking have they said here?

I think you're missing the point. It's not that "the game" will remember it's that each NPC will remember what they know about you and act according to that particular NPC's world view. It's a subtle but very important difference:

 In most titles, reputation is little more than a bar you fill by completing quest after quest for certain members of the organization in question, and there's often little-to-no variation. A faction either hates you or loves you without any exception. With Storybricks, however, you could end up on the wrong side of the city guard faction, but what if you did a favor for one of those guards? While the faction as a whole would continue to view you distastefully, that single guard would remember your good deed and treat you with respect and gratitude.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/14/storybricks-demo-and-interview-with-brian-psychochild-green-an/

 

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

9/09/13 11:42:56 AM#58

I think what they are hinting at has more to do with mob behavior than combat AI.

there might be enhanced combat ai but I think what well see the most is that mobs don't spawn like in past games and are instead generated in their "headquarters" and "set free".

This means that it is unlikely that something will "pop" into existence right in front of you on a timer. This will also mean that the conquering of a place like crushbone will be extremely difficult even with an army.

in my opinion that's the best way to do it. No more static spawns or encounters. Mobs unleashed onto the world from "their" safe spot.

 

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

9/09/13 1:24:31 PM#59
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Grahor
 

For example: "They again have stated that the game will remember what players do and actions will follow them through the lifetime of a character." - yeah. And what does it actually means? Why, EvE's (and every other game which implements faction standings, say, Fallen Earth, Allods, you name it) does exactly that: whatever you do, every mob you kill, every mission you finish - game remebers it and it follows players through the lifetime of a character. So what _exactly_ groundbreaking have they said here?

I think you're missing the point. It's not that "the game" will remember it's that each NPC will remember what they know about you and act according to that particular NPC's world view. It's a subtle but very important difference:

 In most titles, reputation is little more than a bar you fill by completing quest after quest for certain members of the organization in question, and there's often little-to-no variation. A faction either hates you or loves you without any exception. With Storybricks, however, you could end up on the wrong side of the city guard faction, but what if you did a favor for one of those guards? While the faction as a whole would continue to view you distastefully, that single guard would remember your good deed and treat you with respect and gratitude.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/14/storybricks-demo-and-interview-with-brian-psychochild-green-an/

 

*sigh* Eve has that implemented already: agents, for example, have faction bars and personal bars, and you can get great status with one agent but be in bad favor with his greater faction.

 

And the only difference is that the number of faction bars will increase; each guard will have his own personal "faction bar" and the combination of bars will modify his response; and, as I've pointed out earlier, that means the huge relationship tables and The Great Database Bottleneck.

 

EvE gets around the Great Database Bottleneck through heavy (and I mean HEAVY) instancing of relationships data (sometimes you have to restart your game to renew your relationships data, because it's heavily cached on all levels to avoid the overload), which goes pretty much unnoticeable due to the nature of EvE's world and its server-farm architecture.

 

My opinion is that they will not do it this way, but rather a small number of specific NPCs will have their own bars you could fill; for example, a city may be closed for you usually, but one specific guard (and not all the others) will have his own faction bar and will have his own personal quest to fill that bar.

 

Sure, it adds flavor and has value and I'm all for that, but it's hardly anything new or exciting.

 

StoryBricks is an actually powerfull enough interface allowing barely trained monkeys to build enough such small quests for every guard and every person in the city, but calculation and database overload will destroy the server - unless, again, heavily instanced. Or at least that's my somewhat-educated opinion. 

 

P.S. Oh, I forgot: "It's not that "the game" will remember it's that each NPC will remember" - there are no NPCS to remember anything. It's all the game. It's all the database and tables in it. I'm sorry, but you are a big boy already, certainly over 12 years old - there is no Santa. Sorry, but that's how it is.

  Enrif

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 145

9/09/13 2:18:03 PM#60


Originally posted by Grahor

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Grahor

 
For example: "They again have stated that the game will remember what players do and actions will follow them through the lifetime of a character." - yeah. And what does it actually means? Why, EvE's (and every other game which implements faction standings, say, Fallen Earth, Allods, you name it) does exactly that: whatever you do, every mob you kill, every mission you finish - game remebers it and it follows players through the lifetime of a character. So what _exactly_ groundbreaking have they said here?
I think you're missing the point. It's not that "the game" will remember it's that each NPC will remember what they know about you and act according to that particular NPC's world view. It's a subtle but very important difference:  In most titles, reputation is little more than a bar you fill by completing quest after quest for certain members of the organization in question, and there's often little-to-no variation. A faction either hates you or loves you without any exception. With Storybricks, however, you could end up on the wrong side of the city guard faction, but what if you did a favor for one of those guards? While the faction as a whole would continue to view you distastefully, that single guard would remember your good deed and treat you with respect and gratitude. http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/14/storybricks-demo-and-interview-with-brian-psychochild-green-an/  
*sigh* Eve has that implemented already: agents, for example, have faction bars and personal bars, and you can get great status with one agent but be in bad favor with his greater faction.   And the only difference is that the number of faction bars will increase; each guard will have his own personal "faction bar" and the combination of bars will modify his response; and, as I've pointed out earlier, that means the huge relationship tables and The Great Database Bottleneck.   EvE gets around the Great Database Bottleneck through heavy (and I mean HEAVY) instancing of relationships data (sometimes you have to restart your game to renew your relationships data, because it's heavily cached on all levels to avoid the overload), which goes pretty much unnoticeable due to the nature of EvE's world and its server-farm architecture.   My opinion is that they will not do it this way, but rather a small number of specific NPCs will have their own bars you could fill; for example, a city may be closed for you usually, but one specific guard (and not all the others) will have his own faction bar and will have his own personal quest to fill that bar.   Sure, it adds flavor and has value and I'm all for that, but it's hardly anything new or exciting.   StoryBricks is an actually powerfull enough interface allowing barely trained monkeys to build enough such small quests for every guard and every person in the city, but calculation and database overload will destroy the server - unless, again, heavily instanced. Or at least that's my somewhat-educated opinion.    P.S. Oh, I forgot: "It's not that "the game" will remember it's that each NPC will remember" - there are no NPCS to remember anything. It's all the game. It's all the database and tables in it. I'm sorry, but you are a big boy already, certainly over 12 years old - there is no Santa. Sorry, but that's how it is.
We don't know if they found a way to get around that bottleneck you talk about. It's just assuming that they can't handle it by the amount of data needed and that in the past with older technologies it wasn't possible(your example with EVE). But the same would go for a destructible world. This has massive data too. So far SOE didn't talked about how mechanics work. Not combat mechanics or such mechanics like communications for AI and destructible environment. Maybe they found a way to handle massive data traffic.

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