Trending Games | Guild Wars 2 | Elder Scrolls Online | TERA: Rising | WildStar

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,645,773 Users Online:0
Games:687  Posts:6,083,636
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Everquest Next: Landmark Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Remember the good old MMO's? Taking off my rose-colored glasses and seeing reality

29 Pages First « 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 » Last Search
578 posts found
  Moirae

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/19/06
Posts: 2560

9/23/13 5:11:31 PM#481
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by FinalFikus

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I never gave a description of investors.   I'm just stating that its obvious that market trended towards the extraordinary success of WoW.  Not surprising considering the risk involved in the creation of MMORPG.   But until someone actually create a game with modern polish and old school MMORPG features it's all speculation it will or won't work.  If these developers were perfect with their metrics and polling then so many wouldn't fail into F2P.    
Your view on some of these things is a little off. Investors may be aware of games, but they invest in developers, not games. If some no-name developer says they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good, they are not going to get any investment dollars. If a developer has created profitable games in the past and has some people who worked on MMORPGs in the past they are much more likely to get funding if they say they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good. So, what can we take away from this? Developers and investors are the people who are most likely to know what will work and what won't. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but they certainly know more than anyone on these forums who isn't involved in the industry. It is significant that the only people who are trying to build the "old school" games are people with little experience in MMORPGs. It is also significant that they are having to use crowd funding to build their tech demos to try and secure further funding for their games. The developers who probably could secure funding aren't looking for it, and the developers who want funding are having to prove that an "old school" game can give a reasonable return on investment. This is no mean feat given the cost of MMORPG development and the fact that every comparison between the "old school" and "new school" games shows the "new school" games retaining more players and making more money. This is still true even if WoW did not exist. So on the one side we have people who have years of experience financing, building and yes, playing MMORPGs shying away from "old school" games, and on the other side we have people who have only played MMORPGs for years. Of the two, it seems that the people who have been involved in the industry would be the ones more likely to be right.  
Old school games were released during the old school days. You forgot to mention that. They also started from scratch.

 

You simply cannot compare the situations and determine anything other than online games have  gotten more popular as more people get on the internet.

A new mmorpg advancing that old school gameplay would be the only way to determine anything. Remember they weren't handicapped by DIKU either, so progression isn't "the game". They could use all the modern tricks and tech as well.

I would bet an new refined old school mmo would end up about the same as a new school mmo. I would bet.




We still have years of experience working in the industry and playing the games versus years of experience playing the games. The people working in the industry have all the experience of all the people playing the games, in addition to the experience of seeing how all the other players use and respond to the features they implement. The people with more experience, more knowledge and better access to information are more likely to be right.

 

I can't argue with any of that.

We only get half of the story on this end and 90% of it is spin.

World sim with the game built around it is not what people want. I should except that.

Thanks for responding in a kind manner. I appreciate your patience with us.

 

Instead, it might be a good idea to go research some other games that show true promise because they aren't funded by the big investors and are doing things never before seen. There is NO reason that we can't be given more in these games. None, other than laziness and greed. 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1174

Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute.

9/23/13 5:13:20 PM#482


Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Cephus404 I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore. The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
You couldn't be more wrong. I get tired of seeing the misconception that the old school players are no longer there or a viable target audience; its a seriously weak argument. The old school players didn't just up and disappear and the collective of the old school games
  • UO peaked out at 250k
  • EVE currently 500k,
  • EQ 450k+
  • Asherons call 120k
  • DAoC 250k Final Fantasy XI 500k+ Lineage 1.. 1.4million worldwide Lineage 2... 1.3million worldwide SWG 1 million boxes sold, no idea on sub numbers
Thats 4.7million people without taking into account SWG because I don't know where it was in subscriber numbers, or some of the other games unlisted. Don't say anything about Lineage 1 or 2 worldwide either because if you neglect that then you certainly have to neglect the 6 million that WoW has in China. Its not like these people died or just disappeared so is their a market for the more hardcore? Even if only a third of that number played the game it would still be more popular than the second most popular themepark game, so I would say yes. Not to mention the new crowd isn't all going to be in the new kids crowd; there are going to be people that play the games like WoW and want more and realize they really do want something akin to the old school. It is also tiring seeing people gauge a Companies success off of a games sub number. It doesn't work that way. If a game is pulling profit after 3+ years it is a success; it doesn't matter if they have 120 subs or 120k subs, from a business standpoint it was a success.


Excellent points cookie monster :)

I'm not going to a party full of clowns (F2P), then offer to buy them all drinks. -GregorMcgregor

Playing: XCom, Rome Total War, Master of Orion II, Majesty 2, and HOMM I.
Played: Everquest, Planetside, Vanguard, Pirates of the Burning Sea, EVE, UO.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

9/23/13 5:21:34 PM#483
Originally posted by Moirae
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by FinalFikus

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I never gave a description of investors.   I'm just stating that its obvious that market trended towards the extraordinary success of WoW.  Not surprising considering the risk involved in the creation of MMORPG.   But until someone actually create a game with modern polish and old school MMORPG features it's all speculation it will or won't work.  If these developers were perfect with their metrics and polling then so many wouldn't fail into F2P.    
Your view on some of these things is a little off. Investors may be aware of games, but they invest in developers, not games. If some no-name developer says they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good, they are not going to get any investment dollars. If a developer has created profitable games in the past and has some people who worked on MMORPGs in the past they are much more likely to get funding if they say they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good. So, what can we take away from this? Developers and investors are the people who are most likely to know what will work and what won't. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but they certainly know more than anyone on these forums who isn't involved in the industry. It is significant that the only people who are trying to build the "old school" games are people with little experience in MMORPGs. It is also significant that they are having to use crowd funding to build their tech demos to try and secure further funding for their games. The developers who probably could secure funding aren't looking for it, and the developers who want funding are having to prove that an "old school" game can give a reasonable return on investment. This is no mean feat given the cost of MMORPG development and the fact that every comparison between the "old school" and "new school" games shows the "new school" games retaining more players and making more money. This is still true even if WoW did not exist. So on the one side we have people who have years of experience financing, building and yes, playing MMORPGs shying away from "old school" games, and on the other side we have people who have only played MMORPGs for years. Of the two, it seems that the people who have been involved in the industry would be the ones more likely to be right.  
Old school games were released during the old school days. You forgot to mention that. They also started from scratch.

 

You simply cannot compare the situations and determine anything other than online games have  gotten more popular as more people get on the internet.

A new mmorpg advancing that old school gameplay would be the only way to determine anything. Remember they weren't handicapped by DIKU either, so progression isn't "the game". They could use all the modern tricks and tech as well.

I would bet an new refined old school mmo would end up about the same as a new school mmo. I would bet.




We still have years of experience working in the industry and playing the games versus years of experience playing the games. The people working in the industry have all the experience of all the people playing the games, in addition to the experience of seeing how all the other players use and respond to the features they implement. The people with more experience, more knowledge and better access to information are more likely to be right.

 

I can't argue with any of that.

We only get half of the story on this end and 90% of it is spin.

World sim with the game built around it is not what people want. I should except that.

Thanks for responding in a kind manner. I appreciate your patience with us.

 

Instead, it might be a good idea to go research some other games that show true promise because they aren't funded by the big investors and are doing things never before seen. There is NO reason that we can't be given more in these games. None, other than laziness and greed. 

Oh I know. there is no reason a big developer cant make a "world sim with the game built around it", other than their experience and metrics.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11363

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

9/23/13 5:35:58 PM#484
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Holophonist

What game did we sandbox players point to as being "the one"? The only one that I personally was really excited for was DFUW. And I do like that game, but it's not a sandbox unfortunately. So tell me, what sandbox game came out that we all claimed was going to be the big one?

 

Perpetuum

Dafrkfall Online

ArcheAge

Age of Wushu

Star Citizen

Black Desert

Everquest Next

You could travel back further and watch the pattern over and over again.

I was going to pull out a similar list but decided it was pointless, he's just going to say "I didn't want those games, therefore the list is invalid!"

Well I'm sorry if you don't understand, but it's a bs list. As I pointed out over half of that list even out in the us yet. Why are they on there? Also it definitely matters if I didn't say those games were going to be THE ONE because you're talking about individual people's credibility. You can't say I'm not credible because I've been wrong about games in the past if I haven't been.

You asked a question.

"What game did we sandbox players point to as being "the one"?"

"So tell me, what sandbox game came out that we all claimed was going to be the big one?"

I answered that. You even went as far as to give the exact scenario of excited prior and then disappointed with what was delivered on release

"The only one that I personally was really excited for was DFUW. And I do like that game, but it's not a sandbox unfortunately."

however when given the direct answer to your question, based exactly on the very scenario you presented, you reject the list because... they fit that scenario.

You then go on to defend against some aspersion of your credibility.

When someone gives you an answer you don't like, you either talk in circles or claim they are attacking you. When they give up trying, you decry them for "tucking tail and running away."

 

The worst part of it is that you are obviously rather intelligent, and the opportunity for some incredible discussions is actually possible if you would actually try to have a discussion rather than look for ways to deflect anything that doesn't agree with your own preconceptions.

 

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

9/23/13 5:48:58 PM#485
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Holophonist

What game did we sandbox players point to as being "the one"? The only one that I personally was really excited for was DFUW. And I do like that game, but it's not a sandbox unfortunately. So tell me, what sandbox game came out that we all claimed was going to be the big one?

 

Perpetuum

Dafrkfall Online

ArcheAge

Age of Wushu

Star Citizen

Black Desert

Everquest Next

You could travel back further and watch the pattern over and over again.

I was going to pull out a similar list but decided it was pointless, he's just going to say "I didn't want those games, therefore the list is invalid!"

Well I'm sorry if you don't understand, but it's a bs list. As I pointed out over half of that list even out in the us yet. Why are they on there? Also it definitely matters if I didn't say those games were going to be THE ONE because you're talking about individual people's credibility. You can't say I'm not credible because I've been wrong about games in the past if I haven't been.

You asked a question.

"What game did we sandbox players point to as being "the one"?"

"So tell me, what sandbox game came out that we all claimed was going to be the big one?"

I answered that. You even went as far as to give the exact scenario of excited prior and then disappointed with what was delivered on release

"The only one that I personally was really excited for was DFUW. And I do like that game, but it's not a sandbox unfortunately."

however when given the direct answer to your question, based exactly on the very scenario you presented, you reject the list because... they fit that scenario.

You then go on to defend against some aspersion of your credibility.

When someone gives you an answer you don't like, you either talk in circles or claim they are attacking you. When they give up trying, you decry them for "tucking tail and running away."

 

The worst part of it is that you are obviously rather intelligent, and the opportunity for some incredible discussions is actually possible if you would actually try to have a discussion rather than look for ways to deflect anything that doesn't agree with your own preconceptions.

 

That list is pretty ridiculous.

I think you made the perpetuum devs year including them.

Darkfall is the only one there that could be considered over hyped. I was hooked on that game until we got tossed, so it was fine for me.

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1867

9/23/13 6:33:07 PM#486
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Holophonist

What game did we sandbox players point to as being "the one"? The only one that I personally was really excited for was DFUW. And I do like that game, but it's not a sandbox unfortunately. So tell me, what sandbox game came out that we all claimed was going to be the big one?

 

Perpetuum

Dafrkfall Online

ArcheAge

Age of Wushu

Star Citizen

Black Desert

Everquest Next

You could travel back further and watch the pattern over and over again.

I was going to pull out a similar list but decided it was pointless, he's just going to say "I didn't want those games, therefore the list is invalid!"

Well I'm sorry if you don't understand, but it's a bs list. As I pointed out over half of that list even out in the us yet. Why are they on there? Also it definitely matters if I didn't say those games were going to be THE ONE because you're talking about individual people's credibility. You can't say I'm not credible because I've been wrong about games in the past if I haven't been.

You asked a question.

"What game did we sandbox players point to as being "the one"?"

"So tell me, what sandbox game came out that we all claimed was going to be the big one?"

I answered that. You even went as far as to give the exact scenario of excited prior and then disappointed with what was delivered on release

"The only one that I personally was really excited for was DFUW. And I do like that game, but it's not a sandbox unfortunately."

however when given the direct answer to your question, based exactly on the very scenario you presented, you reject the list because... they fit that scenario.

You then go on to defend against some aspersion of your credibility.

When someone gives you an answer you don't like, you either talk in circles or claim they are attacking you. When they give up trying, you decry them for "tucking tail and running away."

 

The worst part of it is that you are obviously rather intelligent, and the opportunity for some incredible discussions is actually possible if you would actually try to have a discussion rather than look for ways to deflect anything that doesn't agree with your own preconceptions.

I'm not sure what circles you're talking about. Over half of that list isn't out. The other half I don't agree that we as a sandbox community over hyped. Perpetuum, really? As others have pointed out, the only one even close was Darkfall. I would say that darkfall ended up not being a true sandbox, but if you want to put that on us as a game that we were excited for and turned out to be wrong, I'm not gonna argue with that. But it definitely matters if the game comes out and it's not what we were expecting. That's not sandbox games failing or us having some insatiable desire to go back to the way things were, only to find out that it's unattainable.

 

I feel like you guys make points and then forget the context in which they're being made. The claim is that there's some cycle that keeps occurring where we get super excited about some game, and then it fails or then we get bored with it. This is just not true. Darkfall is a good example of us (me at least) getting excited about a game, and then getting bored with it because it's NOT a sandbox. 

 

Have you ever thought that maybe you guys are wrong? You guys love to say we're just being stubborn, but every time I post I'm backing up my thought process with reason. For instance: a lot of those games aren't out. Also: I didn't even KNOW about perpetuum until it was already out. Age of Wushu I didn't even realize it was a sort of sandbox until it was out. Everything I've heard about Age of Wushu has come from people telling me about it after it was already out. I'm not sure how any of this fits into us getting hyped about a game until it turns out the game sucks or fails or whatever.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1867

9/23/13 6:33:07 PM#487
double post
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5382

I dare you to pin a label on me.

9/23/13 7:13:42 PM#488
Mortal Online, Xsyon, Heaven & Hearth, Fallen Earth, Fall of Mankind, Earthrise...

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1867

9/23/13 7:15:17 PM#489
Originally posted by Quirhid
Mortal Online, Xsyon, Heaven & Hearth, Fallen Earth, Fall of Mankind, Earthrise...

So what I'm hearing is you guys are coming up with nothing. You're seriously going to claim that these games were hyped up to be the savior of sandbox fans leading up to their release? Honestly?

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

9/23/13 7:36:48 PM#490
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
Mortal Online, Xsyon, Heaven & Hearth, Fallen Earth, Fall of Mankind, Earthrise...

So what I'm hearing is you guys are coming up with nothing. You're seriously going to claim that these games were hyped up to be the savior of sandbox fans leading up to their release? Honestly?

This is when you stop debating or arguing. Let people decide for themselves at this point. Ok?

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1867

9/23/13 7:40:48 PM#491
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
Mortal Online, Xsyon, Heaven & Hearth, Fallen Earth, Fall of Mankind, Earthrise...

So what I'm hearing is you guys are coming up with nothing. You're seriously going to claim that these games were hyped up to be the savior of sandbox fans leading up to their release? Honestly?

This is when you stop debating or arguing. Let people decide for themselves at this point. Ok?

Look, if it's at a point of "agree to disagree" then that's fine. I just want to make sure that they're claiming that heaven and hearth etc is a game that the sandbox community held up as "THE ONE."

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

9/23/13 7:43:04 PM#492
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
Mortal Online, Xsyon, Heaven & Hearth, Fallen Earth, Fall of Mankind, Earthrise...

So what I'm hearing is you guys are coming up with nothing. You're seriously going to claim that these games were hyped up to be the savior of sandbox fans leading up to their release? Honestly?

This is when you stop debating or arguing. Let people decide for themselves at this point. Ok?

Look, if it's at a point of "agree to disagree" then that's fine. I just want to make sure that they're claiming that heaven and hearth etc is a game that the sandbox community held up as "THE ONE."

Of coarse he did. Conversation over. Now let it ride.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10005

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

9/23/13 8:12:19 PM#493


Originally posted by FinalFikus

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by FinalFikus

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I never gave a description of investors.   I'm just stating that its obvious that market trended towards the extraordinary success of WoW.  Not surprising considering the risk involved in the creation of MMORPG.   But until someone actually create a game with modern polish and old school MMORPG features it's all speculation it will or won't work.  If these developers were perfect with their metrics and polling then so many wouldn't fail into F2P.    
Your view on some of these things is a little off. Investors may be aware of games, but they invest in developers, not games. If some no-name developer says they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good, they are not going to get any investment dollars. If a developer has created profitable games in the past and has some people who worked on MMORPGs in the past they are much more likely to get funding if they say they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good. So, what can we take away from this? Developers and investors are the people who are most likely to know what will work and what won't. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but they certainly know more than anyone on these forums who isn't involved in the industry. It is significant that the only people who are trying to build the "old school" games are people with little experience in MMORPGs. It is also significant that they are having to use crowd funding to build their tech demos to try and secure further funding for their games. The developers who probably could secure funding aren't looking for it, and the developers who want funding are having to prove that an "old school" game can give a reasonable return on investment. This is no mean feat given the cost of MMORPG development and the fact that every comparison between the "old school" and "new school" games shows the "new school" games retaining more players and making more money. This is still true even if WoW did not exist. So on the one side we have people who have years of experience financing, building and yes, playing MMORPGs shying away from "old school" games, and on the other side we have people who have only played MMORPGs for years. Of the two, it seems that the people who have been involved in the industry would be the ones more likely to be right.  
Old school games were released during the old school days. You forgot to mention that. They also started from scratch.   You simply cannot compare the situations and determine anything other than online games have  gotten more popular as more people get on the internet. A new mmorpg advancing that old school gameplay would be the only way to determine anything. Remember they weren't handicapped by DIKU either, so progression isn't "the game". They could use all the modern tricks and tech as well. I would bet an new refined old school mmo would end up about the same as a new school mmo. I would bet.
We still have years of experience working in the industry and playing the games versus years of experience playing the games. The people working in the industry have all the experience of all the people playing the games, in addition to the experience of seeing how all the other players use and respond to the features they implement. The people with more experience, more knowledge and better access to information are more likely to be right.  
I can't argue with any of that.

We only get half of the story on this end and 90% of it is spin.

World sim with the game built around it is not what people want. I should except that.

Thanks for responding in a kind manner. I appreciate your patience with us.

 




Well fine.

UO tried the "old school" route, and they only made it to 250k by adding Trammel and letting Feluca become a wasteland.

EQ tried the "old school" route and got thoroughly trounced by EQ2 & WoW.

Pick any "old school" MMORPG, even the ones that were AAA games and the same pattern repeats itself.

People keep bringing up this "old school" market and how great it is. If this were true, there should be some evidence to support it, other than the cries of of the disenfranchised on forums.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5382

I dare you to pin a label on me.

9/23/13 8:22:27 PM#494
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid

You pointed out a lot of people whine, I provided an explanation.
I said the word "whine", yes. Do you remember what the context was? I said it's not a coincidence that people whine about sandboxes and then sandboxes get made. You telling me about how vocal minorities work doesn't have anything to do with what I said. Instead, it proves that you didn't grasp the meaning. The point of me saying that was to say that there's probably a connection between people saying they want sandboxes and sandboxes being made... in other words it's a defense for you guys saying we shouldn't waste our time asking for sandboxes.
 
Also you totally ignored the rest of what I was saying and chose to hone in on one part, because that's what you do. It just turns out that you didn't even understand that one small part.
Then please do explain your position again, only differently. I've given you that courtesy over a dozen times (although in vain).
I ignore some of your claims and assumptions because picking them all apart would be exhausting.
That's not how grown-ups debate. You can't ignore points AND THEN claim some kind of authority. You have no credibility when it comes to referencing other discussions because in all of them you are constantly ignoring major points and just leading us into super concentrated bunny-trails where we debate the meanings of words and things like that. This keeps happening because you can't stay on topic. You pick out little phrases here and there because you have nothing to say to the major point. And so we end up arguing about tiny crap that doesn't matter and it becomes a battle over words and meanings of words. It's pointless.
I pick on those little phrases because your arguments rests on them. There's no point in entertaining wild theories and claims when I can direct my attention where it all went wrong. I'd rather treat the disease, not the symptom, you see?
 
I would be shocked to find out if you didn't care much about the validity of your rationale. Do you even care if your logic is sound when the conclusion you've arrived to is the one you want. Not the correct one, not the most likely one, but the one you like the most. And you act like its the truth.
It matters. You are imposing your standards and claim to know better. It is rude.
What standards are you even talking about? This is such a huge waste of time. Are you saying I can't say  game has failed? By the way, I don't even remember when I have said a game has failed. But it's not rude or derogatory to say a game has failed. 
 
Also, you claim I said things like certain games are "for kiddies." I haven't. You're misrepresenting what I've said and imposing OTHER PEOPLE'S comments onto me as if I said them and then say I come off as rude to these developers. Wrong.
You say WoW is dumbed down or watered down. You say they're not as deep as... whatever game you happen to like. And you've tried very hard to make a distinction between popular games and "good games". It is like anything you don't enjoy yourself can't be good.
 
Look at your posts. You are very rude.
No I don't know what you mean by the word developer. Language relying on a consensus among its speakers I can only assume you mean the same thing as I do. How do you know their design is not good? For one, often it is not even supposed to cater to you.
Should I point out that I don't mean the janitor of a certain company is making poor decisions, too? When I'm criticizing the decision making of a company, obviously I'm criticizing the people who are making the decisions. Did I really have to explain that to you? Or are you just trying to pick more fights? You're coming off as really petty.
Hey that "one coder", the indie dev? He was also the designer. He was a one man project. But I am anxious to find out: How do you know a design is good?

I am not attacking you I am attacking your arguments. You're the one making personal comments. I just can't be arsed to dust off old threads that have reached the point of ad nauseam. Declaring yourself victor or "right" on the basis of that doesn't speak highly of you.

ARE YOU EVER GOING TO STOP IGNORING POINTS? This is a perfect example of a moment in a discussion where YOU will claim that we're just going around circles and I'm being stubborn, but in reality you're not even coming close to responding to the original point. If we're going around in circles, it's because I'm chasing you around as you run away from the main and original point.

 

Yeah, that's what I said. That's different from what you claimed I said. And it absolutely is a reasonable thing to say. How is it not? It seems to me to be 100% intuitive. There are many things that you can't prove that aren't necessarily wrong... in fact the vast majority of statements made fit this exact description. What are you talking about?

 

Arguing with you is always so pointless because you are simply incapable of having a cohesive, sequential discussion. As soon as I respond to something inaccurate you've said, you change the subject to something else.

I guess I didn't make my view clear enough here or in the other thread so let me explain again:

The statement "Just because I can't prove it doesn't mean its true" is by no means sensible or intuitive because it implies that if I should want to prove the argument false, I would have to provide the evidence. Rather than you providing proof of positive you require me to proof the negative. Its just not good practice.

If we all operated the same way. Any argument could be considered true. It is the flying spaghetti monster argument. I can't prove that there is no FSM. But like the FSM argument, yours is so weak, so unlikely, that it crosses my threshold over to fiction.

Hopefully you'll now understand how comical it is to watch you defend such arguments like they were a certainty.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5382

I dare you to pin a label on me.

9/23/13 8:28:50 PM#495
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
Mortal Online, Xsyon, Heaven & Hearth, Fallen Earth, Fall of Mankind, Earthrise...

So what I'm hearing is you guys are coming up with nothing. You're seriously going to claim that these games were hyped up to be the savior of sandbox fans leading up to their release? Honestly?

This is when you stop debating or arguing. Let people decide for themselves at this point. Ok?

Look, if it's at a point of "agree to disagree" then that's fine. I just want to make sure that they're claiming that heaven and hearth etc is a game that the sandbox community held up as "THE ONE."

Of coarse he did. Conversation over. Now let it ride.

Apparently you missed all the hype.

Huh...

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  BMBender

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 423

9/23/13 8:41:11 PM#496

I seem to have a different definition to "old School mmo" than many here.  When I hear I hear/read old school (for me pre-wow)  I hearken back to the days when EVERY single one on the market FELT different, PLAYED differently,  LOOKED different and  and stayed true to it's core audience.  Back then initial investments were small enough most were willing to risk breaking new ground, it wasn't a cash cow to be squeezed.   Even Wow was an experiment in regards to the ease of access.  After that we've pretty much had the same recycled ideas for over a decade with one or two gimmicks thrown in  to be marketed as "different". 

 

I seriously doubt there will be any AAA mmos in the future; theme sandbox or hybrid, that feel much different.  As long as you have that huge front end investment hurdle there; risk is something you aint gonna see.  Now I can see approaches like EVE's(I don't play it but I agree with their approach) working well long-term.  Ie start small, stay with the plan come hell/high-water, but what you do build do so to the best of your limits.  Then grow from there over time.

Correct me If I'm wrong but isn't EVE the only mmo out there still that has had a consistent upward track long-term?  While It sounds like I'm shilling for EVE maybe I am un-intentionally I actually dislike the the game play but that's because it was never marketed towards me and I'm cool with that.  I just wish other developers/pubs would follow that roadmap instead of being blinded by $ signs they aren't likely to see, Ask TOR developers how that one turned out.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 852

9/23/13 8:58:44 PM#497
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by FinalFikus

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by FinalFikus

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I never gave a description of investors.   I'm just stating that its obvious that market trended towards the extraordinary success of WoW.  Not surprising considering the risk involved in the creation of MMORPG.   But until someone actually create a game with modern polish and old school MMORPG features it's all speculation it will or won't work.  If these developers were perfect with their metrics and polling then so many wouldn't fail into F2P.    
Your view on some of these things is a little off. Investors may be aware of games, but they invest in developers, not games. If some no-name developer says they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good, they are not going to get any investment dollars. If a developer has created profitable games in the past and has some people who worked on MMORPGs in the past they are much more likely to get funding if they say they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good. So, what can we take away from this? Developers and investors are the people who are most likely to know what will work and what won't. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but they certainly know more than anyone on these forums who isn't involved in the industry. It is significant that the only people who are trying to build the "old school" games are people with little experience in MMORPGs. It is also significant that they are having to use crowd funding to build their tech demos to try and secure further funding for their games. The developers who probably could secure funding aren't looking for it, and the developers who want funding are having to prove that an "old school" game can give a reasonable return on investment. This is no mean feat given the cost of MMORPG development and the fact that every comparison between the "old school" and "new school" games shows the "new school" games retaining more players and making more money. This is still true even if WoW did not exist. So on the one side we have people who have years of experience financing, building and yes, playing MMORPGs shying away from "old school" games, and on the other side we have people who have only played MMORPGs for years. Of the two, it seems that the people who have been involved in the industry would be the ones more likely to be right.  
Old school games were released during the old school days. You forgot to mention that. They also started from scratch.   You simply cannot compare the situations and determine anything other than online games have  gotten more popular as more people get on the internet. A new mmorpg advancing that old school gameplay would be the only way to determine anything. Remember they weren't handicapped by DIKU either, so progression isn't "the game". They could use all the modern tricks and tech as well. I would bet an new refined old school mmo would end up about the same as a new school mmo. I would bet.
We still have years of experience working in the industry and playing the games versus years of experience playing the games. The people working in the industry have all the experience of all the people playing the games, in addition to the experience of seeing how all the other players use and respond to the features they implement. The people with more experience, more knowledge and better access to information are more likely to be right.  
I can't argue with any of that.

 

We only get half of the story on this end and 90% of it is spin.

World sim with the game built around it is not what people want. I should except that.

Thanks for responding in a kind manner. I appreciate your patience with us.

 




Well fine.

UO tried the "old school" route, and they only made it to 250k by adding Trammel and letting Feluca become a wasteland.

EQ tried the "old school" route and got thoroughly trounced by EQ2 & WoW.

Pick any "old school" MMORPG, even the ones that were AAA games and the same pattern repeats itself.

People keep bringing up this "old school" market and how great it is. If this were true, there should be some evidence to support it, other than the cries of of the disenfranchised on forums.

 

 

Lol, you are comparing old games to new games.   I think most people are talking about moving the genre forward down a different path.  The problem is most people can't wrap their minds around the concept  of a path outside of following WoW casual gaming.  

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

9/23/13 8:59:37 PM#498
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by FinalFikus

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by FinalFikus

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I never gave a description of investors.   I'm just stating that its obvious that market trended towards the extraordinary success of WoW.  Not surprising considering the risk involved in the creation of MMORPG.   But until someone actually create a game with modern polish and old school MMORPG features it's all speculation it will or won't work.  If these developers were perfect with their metrics and polling then so many wouldn't fail into F2P.    
Your view on some of these things is a little off. Investors may be aware of games, but they invest in developers, not games. If some no-name developer says they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good, they are not going to get any investment dollars. If a developer has created profitable games in the past and has some people who worked on MMORPGs in the past they are much more likely to get funding if they say they can make a game like Mortal Online, but good. So, what can we take away from this? Developers and investors are the people who are most likely to know what will work and what won't. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but they certainly know more than anyone on these forums who isn't involved in the industry. It is significant that the only people who are trying to build the "old school" games are people with little experience in MMORPGs. It is also significant that they are having to use crowd funding to build their tech demos to try and secure further funding for their games. The developers who probably could secure funding aren't looking for it, and the developers who want funding are having to prove that an "old school" game can give a reasonable return on investment. This is no mean feat given the cost of MMORPG development and the fact that every comparison between the "old school" and "new school" games shows the "new school" games retaining more players and making more money. This is still true even if WoW did not exist. So on the one side we have people who have years of experience financing, building and yes, playing MMORPGs shying away from "old school" games, and on the other side we have people who have only played MMORPGs for years. Of the two, it seems that the people who have been involved in the industry would be the ones more likely to be right.  
Old school games were released during the old school days. You forgot to mention that. They also started from scratch.   You simply cannot compare the situations and determine anything other than online games have  gotten more popular as more people get on the internet. A new mmorpg advancing that old school gameplay would be the only way to determine anything. Remember they weren't handicapped by DIKU either, so progression isn't "the game". They could use all the modern tricks and tech as well. I would bet an new refined old school mmo would end up about the same as a new school mmo. I would bet.
We still have years of experience working in the industry and playing the games versus years of experience playing the games. The people working in the industry have all the experience of all the people playing the games, in addition to the experience of seeing how all the other players use and respond to the features they implement. The people with more experience, more knowledge and better access to information are more likely to be right.  
I can't argue with any of that.

 

We only get half of the story on this end and 90% of it is spin.

World sim with the game built around it is not what people want. I should except that.

Thanks for responding in a kind manner. I appreciate your patience with us.

 




Well fine.

UO tried the "old school" route, and they only made it to 250k by adding Trammel and letting Feluca become a wasteland.

EQ tried the "old school" route and got thoroughly trounced by EQ2 & WoW.

Pick any "old school" MMORPG, even the ones that were AAA games and the same pattern repeats itself.

People keep bringing up this "old school" market and how great it is. If this were true, there should be some evidence to support it, other than the cries of of the disenfranchised on forums.

 

 

lets forget about old school and talk about the new school.

Tell us of your successes. There is WOW of coarse.

Eq2- no one plays anymore either- join the old school

DDO- fail

LORTO- no one plays anymore either-join the old school

WAR-dead

AOC-no one plays anymore either-join the old school

Tabla rasa-dead

Vangaurd-fail

Final fantasy- looks like it will join the old school

Rift-joins the old school

Star trek-join the old school

COH-dead

Aion- joins the old school at least here

Fallen earth-old school

Guild wars 1- not an mmorpg but sold a lot of boxes

Guild wars 2 -sold a lot of boxes

Star wars old republic- lol

 unless you count box sales then you could only make a comparison if old school games were marketed at all let alone evenly. And at a time when more than nerds played games on the PC over dial up connections (wanna use the phone).

Plus the old school games need all the knowledge and trial and error of previous mmorpg makers.  Plus all the new tech.

Basically you cant know unless a new refined and polished game with old school features (freedom and open world) were made today. World sims with games built around them.

Im sure Im wrong about all the newer games. They make more in a week than UO ever did right? It didn't make any money for EA over its 15+ year life span. EQ definitely didn't make sony any money.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

9/23/13 9:22:36 PM#499
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid
Mortal Online, Xsyon, Heaven & Hearth, Fallen Earth, Fall of Mankind, Earthrise...

So what I'm hearing is you guys are coming up with nothing. You're seriously going to claim that these games were hyped up to be the savior of sandbox fans leading up to their release? Honestly?

This is when you stop debating or arguing. Let people decide for themselves at this point. Ok?

Look, if it's at a point of "agree to disagree" then that's fine. I just want to make sure that they're claiming that heaven and hearth etc is a game that the sandbox community held up as "THE ONE."

Of coarse he did. Conversation over. Now let it ride.

Apparently you missed all the hype.

Huh...

Sure. You win.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1867

9/23/13 9:23:56 PM#500
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid

You pointed out a lot of people whine, I provided an explanation.
I said the word "whine", yes. Do you remember what the context was? I said it's not a coincidence that people whine about sandboxes and then sandboxes get made. You telling me about how vocal minorities work doesn't have anything to do with what I said. Instead, it proves that you didn't grasp the meaning. The point of me saying that was to say that there's probably a connection between people saying they want sandboxes and sandboxes being made... in other words it's a defense for you guys saying we shouldn't waste our time asking for sandboxes.
 
Also you totally ignored the rest of what I was saying and chose to hone in on one part, because that's what you do. It just turns out that you didn't even understand that one small part.
Then please do explain your position again, only differently. I've given you that courtesy over a dozen times (although in vain).
What courtesy are you talking about? In this very discussion you've been ignoring 90% of what I've been saying, and the 10% you do respond to either has little bearing on the overall discussion or you just flat out don't understand. 
 
And I'm not going to explain anything differently, I'm going to repost what I said the FIRST time. This after you said I had no rational arguments to back up what I say:
 
"1. I've given a TON of rational arguments for why I'm in favor of old school games. I've explained how watering down works. I've explained how it makes sense that developers would go for the easy buck instead of making an innovative game. Why wouldn't they? They saw WoW's success so they try to emulate it. I've said over and over that I understand this is how the market works... the other side of the market is consumers voicing their opinions about what they want. I'm not sure how it's wrong for me to do so. Yours is the side that is tells us to just "move on" and "give up." How about you mind your own business and let use decide for ourselves how we want to spend our time? And as I've pointed out to you before, it's not a coincidence that so many people "whine" about wanting a sandbox and now a lot of sandbox games are on the horizon. Seems to me you don't have a leg to stand on."
I ignore some of your claims and assumptions because picking them all apart would be exhausting.
That's not how grown-ups debate. You can't ignore points AND THEN claim some kind of authority. You have no credibility when it comes to referencing other discussions because in all of them you are constantly ignoring major points and just leading us into super concentrated bunny-trails where we debate the meanings of words and things like that. This keeps happening because you can't stay on topic. You pick out little phrases here and there because you have nothing to say to the major point. And so we end up arguing about tiny crap that doesn't matter and it becomes a battle over words and meanings of words. It's pointless.
I pick on those little phrases because your arguments rests on them. There's no point in entertaining wild theories and claims when I can direct my attention where it all went wrong. I'd rather treat the disease, not the symptom, you see?
 
I would be shocked to find out if you didn't care much about the validity of your rationale. Do you even care if your logic is sound when the conclusion you've arrived to is the one you want. Not the correct one, not the most likely one, but the one you like the most. And you act like its the truth.
WRONG. Pretty much every time you're ignoring the points my argument rests on and leading us off into a bunny trail that doesn't matter.
 
And there are no "wild theories" here. Please do tell me what wild theories I've presented, because my "theories" are all extremely tame. In fact at this point I'm pretty sure you're just attributing everything a sandbox advocate has said to me.
 
You can keep insisting that I skew arguments or evidence to fit my opinion, but you never point out how. Every one of my posts is FAR MORE exhaustive than the best of yours. Did you ever consider that you're the one that has an agenda? That you just flat out don't like how bluntly and directly I argue that you'll do or say anything to make it look like I'm wrong? Because so far you've said some pretty indefensible things in your ongoing crusade against me. You said WoW had no effect on the market. You said Haven and Hearth was touted as "THE ONE" by sandbox advocates.
 
I defend my positions vehemently simply because I choose them carefully and sparingly. I'm not just posting theories willy nilly only to have to eat my words.
It matters. You are imposing your standards and claim to know better. It is rude.
What standards are you even talking about? This is such a huge waste of time. Are you saying I can't say  game has failed? By the way, I don't even remember when I have said a game has failed. But it's not rude or derogatory to say a game has failed. 
 
Also, you claim I said things like certain games are "for kiddies." I haven't. You're misrepresenting what I've said and imposing OTHER PEOPLE'S comments onto me as if I said them and then say I come off as rude to these developers. Wrong.
You say WoW is dumbed down or watered down. You say they're not as deep as... whatever game you happen to like. And you've tried very hard to make a distinction between popular games and "good games". It is like anything you don't enjoy yourself can't be good.
 
Look at your posts. You are very rude.
I'm rude when other people are rude. If you're going to be arrogant and condescending while at the same time ignore things when you can't think of anything to say to them, then you've given up your right to play the victim.
 
Saying a game is watered down or dumbed down is NOT inherently rude. What is it with you and this over the top PC attitude? It's rude to say something is inferior to something else? My gosh man, if somebody is offended by that, they need thicker skin. And by the way, one of my best friends who I've known for half of my life LOVES WoW. Again, you're projecting some kind of personality onto me that doesn't exist. 
 
Also, I do indeed think some things are good even though I don't enjoy them. EvE mainly. Also some TV shows like Homeland. Mmmm I never could get into Harry Potter, but I acknowledge that they're good books. Again, you're just assuming things about me because it fits your narrative.
No I don't know what you mean by the word developer. Language relying on a consensus among its speakers I can only assume you mean the same thing as I do. How do you know their design is not good? For one, often it is not even supposed to cater to you.
Should I point out that I don't mean the janitor of a certain company is making poor decisions, too? When I'm criticizing the decision making of a company, obviously I'm criticizing the people who are making the decisions. Did I really have to explain that to you? Or are you just trying to pick more fights? You're coming off as really petty.
Hey that "one coder", the indie dev? He was also the designer. He was a one man project. But I am anxious to find out: How do you know a design is good?
If he's making decisions that involve blatantly copying other games then I'm going to point that out. I'm not saying if he writes code then he's off-limits from people criticizing him. I'm saying I'm not criticizing the person that has nothing to do with my criticisms. If there's some young guy working at X Company doing his job and creating the content he's supposed to create, I'm not criticizing him. This isn't Nazi Germany, I'm not expecting him to make a point and stand up to whoever is responsible for what I think are bad decisions. That really should be obvious.
 
And how do you expect me to answer a vague question like that? The question is about if I've been insulting to developers. And I'm saying I'm only addressing the people in charge of the things I'm criticizing. Again, should be intuitive, but somehow you don't get it. You seem to think some indie developer is going to get distraught when I put down bigger, greedier developers and praise indie developers....

I am not attacking you I am attacking your arguments. You're the one making personal comments. I just can't be arsed to dust off old threads that have reached the point of ad nauseam. Declaring yourself victor or "right" on the basis of that doesn't speak highly of you.

ARE YOU EVER GOING TO STOP IGNORING POINTS? This is a perfect example of a moment in a discussion where YOU will claim that we're just going around circles and I'm being stubborn, but in reality you're not even coming close to responding to the original point. If we're going around in circles, it's because I'm chasing you around as you run away from the main and original point.

 

Yeah, that's what I said. That's different from what you claimed I said. And it absolutely is a reasonable thing to say. How is it not? It seems to me to be 100% intuitive. There are many things that you can't prove that aren't necessarily wrong... in fact the vast majority of statements made fit this exact description. What are you talking about?

 

Arguing with you is always so pointless because you are simply incapable of having a cohesive, sequential discussion. As soon as I respond to something inaccurate you've said, you change the subject to something else.

I guess I didn't make my view clear enough here or in the other thread so let me explain again:

The statement "Just because I can't prove it doesn't mean its true" is by no means sensible or intuitive because it implies that if I should want to prove the argument false, I would have to provide the evidence. Rather than you providing proof of positive you require me to proof the negative. Its just not good practice.

If we all operated the same way. Any argument could be considered true. It is the flying spaghetti monster argument. I can't prove that there is no FSM. But like the FSM argument, yours is so weak, so unlikely, that it crosses my threshold over to fiction.

Hopefully you'll now understand how comical it is to watch you defend such arguments like they were a certainty.

You most certainly did NOT make yourself clear because you never spoke a word about it.

 

And now that you have, let me explain why you're wrong. Saying "Just because I can't prove it, doesn't mean it isn't true" absolutely does NOT imply that you have to prove me wrong. What it DOES imply (or even outright says, actually) is that just because you've shown that I haven't proven it, doesn't mean it isn't true. In other words, some things are never meant to be presented as provable facts... hell, the vast MAJORITY of posts on this website and sentences uttered in the real world fit that exact description, that doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about it, it doesn't mean it's not true.

 

Example: I could say that Breaking Bad is going to win an Emmy for best drama next year. I could give a number of subjective reasons why I think that... and it also just happens to be a very sensible position that a lot of people would probably agree on. Now, just because I can't prove it, doesn't mean it isn't true. Does this seem like a statement that isn't sensible or intuitive? Whether it IS true or not isn't even the point saying that. The point of saying it is that just because you've shown that isn't a provable or knowable fact, doesn't mean it's wrong. I said the quote in question specifically to YOU because of your tendency to just deny deny deny without taking a stance in the actual discussion.

29 Pages First « 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 » Last Search