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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » The case for the three man group experience as standard in EQN

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102 posts found
  ghorgos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 129

9/07/13 6:22:01 AM#41
Originally posted by Enrif

3 is in fantasy setting always a magical number.

3 base armor classes: Heavy/Plate, Medium/Leather, Light/Cloth - you forgot the Chain-armor

3 base fighting styles: Melee, Ranged, Magic - can be reduced to just magic/physical or ranged/melee (as magic is ranged or melee as well)

3 base classes that appears in many games: Warrior, Rogue(mixed with ranger sometimes), Mage(mixed with priest sometimes) - a lot people will disagree on mixing mage with priest

3 base allaingments: good, neutral, evil

even the holy trinity of tank, heal, DPS! - not the holy trinity, only a bad trinity and its missing the support if you speak of fantasy in general(and there is almost always a bard)

 

 

  ghorgos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 129

9/07/13 6:29:01 AM#42
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by solarbear88
Everyone says they want to group then they solo 99% of the time.

Exactly. Its because something is wrong and no one can seem to admit it.

Don't think so. A lot people admit that something is wrong but they don't think your idea is a valid solution. Reducing group size isn't even touching the real problem.

I'm in that group as well but for me this something that is wrong is the design of the games. If the content is 99% solo than my intentions to group are realy low. If the content doesn't fit to grouping there is no need for it and in that cases grouping has more issues(lack of freedom, not your own pace, need to adjust real life things to the group) than benefits.

  Enrif

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 142

9/07/13 6:51:36 AM#43
Originally posted by ghorgos
Originally posted by Enrif

3 is in fantasy setting always a magical number.

3 base armor classes: Heavy/Plate, Medium/Leather, Light/Cloth - you forgot the Chain-armor-would fit into heavy armor,because chain armor is damn heavy

3 base fighting styles: Melee, Ranged, Magic - can be reduced to just magic/physical or ranged/melee (as magic is ranged or melee as well)-melee and ranged are different, magic gives access to things like healing and slows that dont counts as melee or ranged

3 base classes that appears in many games: Warrior, Rogue(mixed with ranger sometimes), Mage(mixed with priest sometimes) - a lot people will disagree on mixing mage with priest-in many games were are only 3 classes exist the mage is the one with the healing skills in 85% of the time

3 base allaingments: good, neutral, evil

even the holy trinity of tank, heal, DPS! - not the holy trinity, only a bad trinity and its missing the support if you speak of fantasy in general(and there is almost always a bard)-didnt said the trinity is good, a bard sings for entertainment not fighting and with that they are very rarly prominent in fantasy games.

 

 

 

  Vivasvan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/07
Posts: 374

9/07/13 8:00:35 AM#44

This game has no trinity. 

With it it will have no need for varied roles. The mobs will be easy kill zergfest mobs.

 

its being designed for a console too. 

At its best it will be a button bashing action/adventure game with elements of mmoRPG bits here and there. 

 

 

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

 
OP  9/07/13 8:06:19 AM#45
Originally posted by ghorgos
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by solarbear88
Everyone says they want to group then they solo 99% of the time.

Exactly. Its because something is wrong and no one can seem to admit it.

Don't think so. A lot people admit that something is wrong but they don't think your idea is a valid solution. Reducing group size isn't even touching the real problem.

I'm in that group as well but for me this something that is wrong is the design of the games. If the content is 99% solo than my intentions to group are realy low. If the content doesn't fit to grouping there is no need for it and in that cases grouping has more issues(lack of freedom, not your own pace, need to adjust real life things to the group) than benefits.

the truth is simple. people prefer to solo over grouping because of the issues associated with large groups of players. 6 players means youll always be waiting for something. Some guy is always afk, some guy cant find the place, some guy sucks, cant find the right class, cant fill the 6th spot, or 5th spot for that matter.

Ive played all the games and the analysis is simple. The larger the group size the larger the requirement for specialist classes, more downtime, and less personal participation. For years ive played these games as a healer. I see the patterns and they are always the same. Everyone wants to be a killer and no one wants to be a healer, tank or crowd controller. You've screwed yourselves with your own behavior. That's the truth. 

nothing else will ever solve it. you have to meet players half way and half way from 6 is 3. Everyone has to have a role in addition to dps.

 

and lets ask this: whats the benefit of a 6 man group over a 3 man group?

  HighMarshal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 242

9/07/13 8:41:55 AM#46

Let us make group sizes as large as we want like in SWG which you could have a group with up to 20 people in it. Even dungeons and raid content should scale based off of group size and average tier of the group.

Sure if you do a raid dungeon with only 5 people you will not get as good a reward as you would if you had 20 people, but with 20 people you may not be lucky enough to get anything.

  User Deleted
9/07/13 8:48:01 AM#47
The three person group has worked in many places before like Charlie's Angels, the Three Musketeers and the Three Stooges. It hasn't been tapped in the MMO market as much mainly because of the need for more than one damage dealer. If a monster has a small enough health pool to let one tank and one damage dealer kill it, there's really no reason to need the damage dealer since the tank could probably outlast the boss anyway w/ a healer. The higher health pools are why more DD are usually needed. EQN can probably get away with 3 person groups since tanking is dead in their game (right from the devs mouth). Players will just all go DD and burn them down.
  HighMarshal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 242

9/07/13 9:19:50 AM#48
Originally posted by Roxtarr
The three person group has worked in many places before like Charlie's Angels, the Three Musketeers and the Three Stooges. It hasn't been tapped in the MMO market as much mainly because of the need for more than one damage dealer. If a monster has a small enough health pool to let one tank and one damage dealer kill it, there's really no reason to need the damage dealer since the tank could probably outlast the boss anyway w/ a healer. The higher health pools are why more DD are usually needed. EQN can probably get away with 3 person groups since tanking is dead in their game (right from the devs mouth). Players will just all go DD and burn them down.

The "Three" Musketeers were actually four. Porthos, Aramas, Athos and d'Artagnan. Even the Three Stooges had a fourth member though I don't know if they were ever all together at once.

  Enrif

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 142

9/07/13 10:32:56 AM#49
Originally posted by HighMarshal

Let us make group sizes as large as we want like in SWG which you could have a group with up to 20 people in it. Even dungeons and raid content should scale based off of group size and average tier of the group.

Sure if you do a raid dungeon with only 5 people you will not get as good a reward as you would if you had 20 people, but with 20 people you may not be lucky enough to get anything.

I have to say it should works the other way. Cause, in normal life you take more people to make things easier, not harder. 

Say you hav a Dragon Boss encounter. With 20 People the responsebility of one is only 1/20th worth of the effort, But with 3 People every one is responsible for1/3rd of the effort. So they have to do more. Besides a Dragon is harder to kill with less people.

 

Or like the example from the Devs about Crushbone. Many Orcs. Without an Army you dont have a chance. But it could also mean high risky for high value. The more people are helping the less everyone gets. I think that makes more sense, then the more the mighiter stuff.

  HighMarshal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 242

9/07/13 11:13:16 AM#50
Originally posted by Enrif
Originally posted by HighMarshal

Let us make group sizes as large as we want like in SWG which you could have a group with up to 20 people in it. Even dungeons and raid content should scale based off of group size and average tier of the group.

Sure if you do a raid dungeon with only 5 people you will not get as good a reward as you would if you had 20 people, but with 20 people you may not be lucky enough to get anything.

I have to say it should works the other way. Cause, in normal life you take more people to make things easier, not harder. 

Say you hav a Dragon Boss encounter. With 20 People the responsebility of one is only 1/20th worth of the effort, But with 3 People every one is responsible for1/3rd of the effort. So they have to do more. Besides a Dragon is harder to kill with less people.

 

Or like the example from the Devs about Crushbone. Many Orcs. Without an Army you dont have a chance. But it could also mean high risky for high value. The more people are helping the less everyone gets. I think that makes more sense, then the more the mighiter stuff.

The problem with that in a game is that more people would make the content trivial and the rewards easier to get. If it didn't scale, then they would have to put a minimum and maximum group size on the content.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11416

9/07/13 11:37:30 AM#51
Originally posted by Vivasvan

This game has no trinity. 

Without it will have no need for varied roles. The mobs will be easy kill zergfest mobs.

regarding no trinity, what we know:

there is no taunt

EQN will have roles but no dedicated classes

 

EQN will support the skill slow -- a combat mechanic lacking in both EQ2 / WOW

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11416

9/07/13 11:40:27 AM#52
Originally posted by rungard
whats the benefit of a 6 man group over a 3 man group?

for me?  socialization

 

I've always preferred larger groups

it wasnt about the content, it was about the people

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6673

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

9/07/13 11:48:11 AM#53
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by rungard
whats the benefit of a 6 man group over a 3 man group?

for me?  socialization

 

I've always preferred larger groups

it wasnt about the content, it was about the people

I agree but going too big such as Raids/Alliances made it worse than 3 man because in all of my gaming years,i have NEVER seen a random PUG type large raid group size communicate what so ever.There would be a few orders given out but nothing social.

I also believe that you can have just as good a social aspect fro ma 3 m,an as a 6 man group,maybe even better.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11416

9/07/13 11:53:49 AM#54
Originally posted by Wizardry

I agree but going too big such as Raids/Alliances made it worse than 3 man because in all of my gaming years,i have NEVER seen a random PUG type large raid group size communicate what so ever.There would be a few orders given out but nothing social.

I also believe that you can have just as good a social aspect fro ma 3 m,an as a 6 man group,maybe even better.

i agree 3 can be better because its more intimate

but i'd rather have the option to know more people in adventuring

 

i'm a huge fan of pickup groups -- the more the merrier

 

I remember being in EQ1 having a full group of 6, we were all having fun

but there would still be others in the zone needing a group

 

I was sad  that couldn't invite them because we were already full at 6

these people that were LFG in the outdoor zone could be without a group for *hours*

 

sometimes my current EQ1 group would reform to accomodate more players

but it was awkward

some roles were needed and sometimes you didn't have enough roles for 2 groups

even when i could split my group up -- you had the added challenge of having to find a new hunting spot because 2 groups hunting together interfered with hunting mobs unless you had distance from each other.

 

EQ1 initially encouraged having a full group of 6 - you got an exp bonus if you had a full group

later, in PoP, EQ1 scaled back and gave groups the full group experience as long as you had 5 of the 6

 

all of my EQ1 PUG were social - the same group would be hunting for hours  (both dungeon and outdoors)

i never did PUG for quests,  it was all about mob grinding and dungeon delving

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

 
OP  9/07/13 12:54:39 PM#55
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Wizardry

I agree but going too big such as Raids/Alliances made it worse than 3 man because in all of my gaming years,i have NEVER seen a random PUG type large raid group size communicate what so ever.There would be a few orders given out but nothing social.

I also believe that you can have just as good a social aspect fro ma 3 m,an as a 6 man group,maybe even better.

i agree 3 can be better because its more intimate

but i'd rather have the option to know more people in adventuring

 

i'm a huge fan of pickup groups -- the more the merrier

 

I remember being in EQ1 having a full group of 6, we were all having fun

but there would still be others in the zone needing a group

 

I was sad  that couldn't invite them because we were already full at 6

these people that were LFG in the outdoor zone could be without a group for *hours*

 

sometimes my current EQ1 group would reform to accomodate more players

but it was awkward

some roles were needed and sometimes you didn't have enough roles for 2 groups

even when i could split my group up -- you had the added challenge of having to find a new hunting spot because 2 groups hunting together interfered with hunting mobs unless you had distance from each other.

 

EQ1 initially encouraged having a full group of 6 - you got an exp bonus if you had a full group

later, in PoP, EQ1 scaled back and gave groups the full group experience as long as you had 5 of the 6

 

all of my EQ1 PUG were social - the same group would be hunting for hours  (both dungeon and outdoors)

i never did PUG for quests,  it was all about mob grinding and dungeon delving

the 3 man actually prevents to many people being left behind because its a smaller multiple and anyone can do any of the roles needed. In your case if you had 6 and there were 3 more, it was too bad for them, whereas that could of easily been 3 units. Lets not forget that you could combine multiple units, and its way easier to combine multiples of 3 than 5 , 6 or 8.

im interested in seeing player behavior when levels are eliminated from the mix. Will people still grind at all?

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11416

9/08/13 2:11:09 AM#56
Originally posted by rungard

the 3 man actually prevents to many people being left behind because its a smaller multiple and anyone can do any of the roles needed. In your case if you had 6 and there were 3 more, it was too bad for them, whereas that could of easily been 3 units. Lets not forget that you could combine multiple units, and its way easier to combine multiples of 3 than 5 , 6 or 8.

im interested in seeing player behavior when levels are eliminated from the mix. Will people still grind at all?

i did overlook that - wish we knew how the EQN experience system worked

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 882

9/08/13 2:31:41 AM#57
Originally posted by rungard

im interested in seeing player behavior when levels are eliminated from the mix. Will people still grind at all?

I am also very interested to see what happens. Without levels, quest hubs, and general themepark elements, I think people might actually communicate with one another and enjoy the game. Instead of rushing off to reach max level in the quickest time possible, by-passing and ignoring all the content and lore made for them.

I imagine people on day one trying to figure out how to purchase land for a future home, how to go about discovering classes, participating in Rally Events, just going out and exploring, etc. Everyone will be able to focus on what they enjoy most instead of having some forced task that has to happen or they fall behind.

Unless killing mobs has a large benefit to progression, I doubt there will be much of a grind, at least not what many are used to. Still very curious how progression will work. I'm wondering if progress is linked to time-played or some other stat that can't really be sped up or rushed. Would make it very interesting if everyone progresses at the same speed regardless of "effort" as everyone's focus and effort differs.

  krage

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/11
Posts: 411

9/08/13 3:07:11 AM#58

IMO the more options the better, I do like 5 man dungeons but I also like the feel of 3 person groups for group questing and even running 5 man dungeons with 3 players. 

 

Questing = 1 player

Group Questing = 3-5 players

"Adventuring" Instances = 1-3 players (Like dungeons but less combat focused)

Standard dungeons = 5 players

Raiding = 6-10 players

Other = 10+  (Massive battle instance or open world events that scale to player numbers)

 

I see no reason why there shouldn't be more options like that or even more grouping flavors, so many of us have different play styles.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3259

9/08/13 3:37:50 AM#59
     Going with 3 for group is just insanely anti social..  Groups should be a minimum of 6, nothing less..  To hamstring a group to no more then 3 is just making the game more solo centric.. Any game can be designed for a variety of encounters.. Whether it be fixed strength such as mob groups of 1,2 ore more..  or use flexible mob strength like what GW2 has done.. If you only have a group of 3, then go fight areas that are tailored for 3, but why would anyone refuse to limit themselves to groups of 3.. Even WoW's group size of 5 was too limiting.. Personally I would like to see groups of 8 possible (which includes pets)..
  HighMarshal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 242

9/08/13 7:56:18 AM#60

Let groups have up to 10 people in them since they tend to design raids for 20 to 40 people. That way in the huge server events, we could form raid groups of 80 people. That way more people in a group keeps people from being left out.

I have 5 personal friends that will be playing this game and a 10 man group would mean that everyone could be in the same group with room to invite others if we want to or need to.

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