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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is it time for AAA (not indie) MMOs to change genres?

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41 posts found
  wargfoot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/26/11
Posts: 45

8/27/13 10:24:05 AM#21

The Secret World is set in modern times with a zombie/werewolf/vampire theme.

I didn't think I'd like it but it is damn good.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4689

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/27/13 10:31:39 AM#22
Originally posted by Demogorgon
Originally posted by Quirhid
F2P is not the same as FAIL. Not to anyone who knows what he's talking about.
[mod edit]

Well considering that several games that were not in danger of shutting down, that were making good profit, and had stable populations switched to f2p.... kinda proves your wrong.

[mod edit]

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19158

8/27/13 10:41:25 AM#23
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Demogorgon
Originally posted by Quirhid
F2P is not the same as FAIL. Not to anyone who knows what he's talking about.
[mod edit]

Well considering that several games that were not in danger of shutting down, that were making good profit, and had stable populations switched to f2p.... kinda proves your wrong.

[mod edit]

 LoL a failure? It is bigger than WoW.

WoT a failure?

Maple Story a failure?

 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2605

There... are... four... lights!

8/27/13 10:44:21 AM#24
Originally posted by nariusseldon

 LoL a failure? It is bigger than WoW.

I wasn't aware League of Legends was a MMORPG. I must have missed that memo.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19158

8/27/13 10:49:42 AM#25
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by nariusseldon

 LoL a failure? It is bigger than WoW.

I wasn't aware League of Legends was a MMORPG. I must have missed that memo.

Close enough. It is even listed here, and included in many MMO reports. You are not paying attention to shifts in the industry.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 998

8/27/13 5:48:19 PM#26
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Demogorgon
 

Then you have'nt been serious about any of the games you played. You're just a game hooper that can't figure out what MMORPG's are about.

/peace out

Well you are partly right.  I've never been serious about any game... they are games after all, not meant to be taken seriously. 

But I've been playing since 2000, several games for many years.  But of course that makes me a game hopper. 

But I do play several games at once, so far no game has offered me everything I want, so I will seek them out in variety.

I've figured out what MMORPG's mean for me.

Have you?

I game hop too. Don't talk as if it is a bad thing. It is fun for me. MMORPG ... they are just entertainment products to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

The problem is that a MMORPG is a product and  if everyone was you the MMORPG genre would fail.    

  DrCokePepsi

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 163

What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
~Sephiroth FFVII

8/27/13 5:57:29 PM#27


Originally posted by TheScavenger
Of course, indie MMOs try...but have not near the funding that an AAA company would have.

 

So what am I talking about? Every AAA MMO is themepark after WoW. Only one is going the sandbox route. Granted, it does seem EQNext is going to change things...so that is (from what has been revealed) a great step in the right direction.

 

Every themepark MMO that has been released has either shut down or went free to play. Even WoW is thinking of going down that path.

 

But no sandbox MMO has ever needed to be free to play. Some have free options (like Runescape), but all of them survive on a pay to play model...no themepark MMO except WoW (and even then, it doesn't look good) has needed to go free to play.

 

Lets see here.

 

SWTOR...failed and went free to play

LOTRO...failed and went free to play

EQ2...failed and went free to play

Age of Conan...failed and went free to play

RIFT...same thing...

 

list goes on.

 

However, Ultima Online is the oldest MMO...AND IS PAY TO PLAY! AND A SUCCESS!

EVE Online is a very successful MMO and completely pay to play (minus the stupid 50 dollar cash shop item that I still lol myself to sleep at)

Asheron's Call is also still pay to play, and it is as old as EQ

And...lets see...then some exceptions (like Ryzom has a free model, and probably only really true sandbox MMO that failed for some reason (which is a shame, as it is amazing))...and runescape having a free model, similar to Ryzom.

 

Now...what are the most successful games that MMOs can learn from?

Skyrim, X3 Terran Conflict, Minecraft (which EQ Next seems to be using ideas from), Grand Theft Auto, Saints Row 3...all are a super success, have more life span than a linear game AND...sell more copies than most themepark MMOs do.

 

And many companies are seeing that open world and sandbox games are a success and going that route...the next witcher...the next assassin's creed...and I'm sure others.

 

So to refer back to the title...is it time for AAA MMOs to change genres? All sandbox/openworld games (mmo, singleplayer or multiplayer) see FAR more success than any linear game.



I agree, why the hell aren't the two LABELED Themepark and Sandbox, instead it's left up to opinion. And It's true these AAA companies just go for the cash. They want to appeal to anyone not just MMORPG players. It's unfortunate.

  DrCokePepsi

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 163

What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
~Sephiroth FFVII

8/27/13 6:05:52 PM#28


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Demogorgon

 
Then you have'nt been serious about any of the games you played. You're just a game hooper that can't figure out what MMORPG's are about. /peace out
Well you are partly right.  I've never been serious about any game... they are games after all, not meant to be taken seriously.  But I've been playing since 2000, several games for many years.  But of course that makes me a game hopper.  But I do play several games at once, so far no game has offered me everything I want, so I will seek them out in variety. I've figured out what MMORPG's mean for me. Have you?
I game hop too. Don't talk as if it is a bad thing. It is fun for me. MMORPG ... they are just entertainment products to me. Nothing more, nothing less.  
 

The problem is that a MMORPG is a product and  if everyone was you the MMORPG genre would fail.    



The sandbox MMORPG genre is NOT FOR GAME HOPPERS. There is no exception to that rule. If you play a sandbox game, you play it for a long time, if you don't like it you leave. Sandboxes are meant to be explored with the community, built with the community, and experienced with the community. If everyone game hopped there would be no community. On the otherhand, there are themeparks. I personally don't enjoy them like a sandbox, but people enjoy them nontheless. Unfortunately the kingpins of this genre happens to be a handful of greedy assholes, who simply feed the casuals their quick snack so they can leave in a month or two. A good themepark such as older WoW, had a legitimate P2P sub method, and served the real MMORPG community what they wanted. It had loads of content, and no B.S. cash shops or other such payments. Nowadays, EVERY mmorpg is going the themepark route and it's leaving a bad mark on those who want a good sandbox MMO without all the F2P bullshit. The MMORPG industry is now being overrun by casual themepark players, the population needs to rebalance.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4689

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/27/13 6:06:03 PM#29
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Demogorgon
Originally posted by Quirhid
F2P is not the same as FAIL. Not to anyone who knows what he's talking about.
[mod edit]

Well considering that several games that were not in danger of shutting down, that were making good profit, and had stable populations switched to f2p.... kinda proves your wrong.

[mod edit]

Not calling out the mod or anything.  I'll assume I said something thats against the tos.

I just find it funny that I honestly have no idea what it was that got modded.  Can't remember for the life of me what I said there :)

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  DrCokePepsi

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 163

What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
~Sephiroth FFVII

8/27/13 6:11:19 PM#30


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by nariusseldon  LoL a failure? It is bigger than WoW.
I wasn't aware League of Legends was a MMORPG. I must have missed that memo.
Close enough. It is even listed here, and included in many MMO reports. You are not paying attention to shifts in the industry.


No. Not close enough. League of Legends is a MOBA. That's an entirely different genre. Call of Duty is not a racing game, you'r point is moot.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4689

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/27/13 6:33:36 PM#31
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

 


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Demogorgon

 
Then you have'nt been serious about any of the games you played. You're just a game hooper that can't figure out what MMORPG's are about. /peace out
Well you are partly right.  I've never been serious about any game... they are games after all, not meant to be taken seriously.  But I've been playing since 2000, several games for many years.  But of course that makes me a game hopper.  But I do play several games at once, so far no game has offered me everything I want, so I will seek them out in variety. I've figured out what MMORPG's mean for me. Have you?
I game hop too. Don't talk as if it is a bad thing. It is fun for me. MMORPG ... they are just entertainment products to me. Nothing more, nothing less.  
 

 

The problem is that a MMORPG is a product and  if everyone was you the MMORPG genre would fail.    



The sandbox MMORPG genre is NOT FOR GAME HOPPERS. There is no exception to that rule. If you play a sandbox game, you play it for a long time, if you don't like it you leave. Sandboxes are meant to be explored with the community, built with the community, and experienced with the community. If everyone game hopped there would be no community. On the otherhand, there are themeparks. I personally don't enjoy them like a sandbox, but people enjoy them nontheless. Unfortunately the kingpins of this genre happens to be a handful of greedy assholes, who simply feed the casuals their quick snack so they can leave in a month or two. A good themepark such as older WoW, had a legitimate P2P sub method, and served the real MMORPG community what they wanted. It had loads of content, and no B.S. cash shops or other such payments. Nowadays, EVERY mmorpg is going the themepark route and it's leaving a bad mark on those who want a good sandbox MMO without all the F2P bullshit. The MMORPG industry is now being overrun by casual themepark players, the population needs to rebalance.

 

Totally disagree.

I have played some for a long time.  Others for a short time, coming back again and again and again.  They offer some things I like, but generally are terrible long term games far far too grindy.  But since they offer some things I like I will come back.

You can absolutely have a community.  I play Istaria, one of the most sandboxy games out there, off/on several months a year, I know many people there.  When I'm back we resume our play and keep on going.  The community is great and I just go right back in. 

I play them casually and will continue to do so as long as they cater to my playstyle. 

edit - in fact I will go further to say that the sandbox games are even more casual than themepark games and with a little bit of advertising others would know that as well.  Yes things do take a long time bu there are no or very few scheduled runs/timed raids, timed access for anything.  You just come in, work on whatever you want and leave.  The ultimate sandbox game is the ultimate casual game.

Game hopping has absolutely nothing to do with sandbox or themepark.  It is simply that no game gives us everything we want.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  niceguy3978

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 1976

8/27/13 6:51:09 PM#32
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

 


Originally posted by TheScavenger
Of course, indie MMOs try...but have not near the funding that an AAA company would have.

 

 

So what am I talking about? Every AAA MMO is themepark after WoW. Only one is going the sandbox route. Granted, it does seem EQNext is going to change things...so that is (from what has been revealed) a great step in the right direction.

 

Every themepark MMO that has been released has either shut down or went free to play. Even WoW is thinking of going down that path.

 

But no sandbox MMO has ever needed to be free to play. Some have free options (like Runescape), but all of them survive on a pay to play model...no themepark MMO except WoW (and even then, it doesn't look good) has needed to go free to play.

 

Lets see here.

 

SWTOR...failed and went free to play

LOTRO...failed and went free to play

EQ2...failed and went free to play

Age of Conan...failed and went free to play

RIFT...same thing...

 

list goes on.

 

However, Ultima Online is the oldest MMO...AND IS PAY TO PLAY! AND A SUCCESS!

EVE Online is a very successful MMO and completely pay to play (minus the stupid 50 dollar cash shop item that I still lol myself to sleep at)

Asheron's Call is also still pay to play, and it is as old as EQ

And...lets see...then some exceptions (like Ryzom has a free model, and probably only really true sandbox MMO that failed for some reason (which is a shame, as it is amazing))...and runescape having a free model, similar to Ryzom.

 

Now...what are the most successful games that MMOs can learn from?

Skyrim, X3 Terran Conflict, Minecraft (which EQ Next seems to be using ideas from), Grand Theft Auto, Saints Row 3...all are a super success, have more life span than a linear game AND...sell more copies than most themepark MMOs do.

 

And many companies are seeing that open world and sandbox games are a success and going that route...the next witcher...the next assassin's creed...and I'm sure others.

 

So to refer back to the title...is it time for AAA MMOs to change genres? All sandbox/openworld games (mmo, singleplayer or multiplayer) see FAR more success than any linear game.



I agree, why the hell aren't the two LABELED Themepark and Sandbox, instead it's left up to opinion. And It's true these AAA companies just go for the cash. They want to appeal to anyone not just MMORPG players. It's unfortunate.

 

 Because you can't even get people to agree what is a sandbox and what is a themepark.  You also can't get people to agree on what a "AAA" game is or and "indy" game.  Is eve still indy  even though they are now a fairly large corporation?  How are we distinguishing between the two?  Can one start out indy and turn into AAA?  

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 998

8/27/13 7:28:35 PM#33
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

 


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Demogorgon

 
Then you have'nt been serious about any of the games you played. You're just a game hooper that can't figure out what MMORPG's are about. /peace out
Well you are partly right.  I've never been serious about any game... they are games after all, not meant to be taken seriously.  But I've been playing since 2000, several games for many years.  But of course that makes me a game hopper.  But I do play several games at once, so far no game has offered me everything I want, so I will seek them out in variety. I've figured out what MMORPG's mean for me. Have you?
I game hop too. Don't talk as if it is a bad thing. It is fun for me. MMORPG ... they are just entertainment products to me. Nothing more, nothing less.  
 

 

The problem is that a MMORPG is a product and  if everyone was you the MMORPG genre would fail.    



The sandbox MMORPG genre is NOT FOR GAME HOPPERS. There is no exception to that rule. If you play a sandbox game, you play it for a long time, if you don't like it you leave. Sandboxes are meant to be explored with the community, built with the community, and experienced with the community. If everyone game hopped there would be no community. On the otherhand, there are themeparks. I personally don't enjoy them like a sandbox, but people enjoy them nontheless. Unfortunately the kingpins of this genre happens to be a handful of greedy assholes, who simply feed the casuals their quick snack so they can leave in a month or two. A good themepark such as older WoW, had a legitimate P2P sub method, and served the real MMORPG community what they wanted. It had loads of content, and no B.S. cash shops or other such payments. Nowadays, EVERY mmorpg is going the themepark route and it's leaving a bad mark on those who want a good sandbox MMO without all the F2P bullshit. The MMORPG industry is now being overrun by casual themepark players, the population needs to rebalance.

 

Totally disagree.

I have played some for a long time.  Others for a short time, coming back again and again and again.  They offer some things I like, but generally are terrible long term games far far too grindy.  But since they offer some things I like I will come back.

You can absolutely have a community.  I play Istaria, one of the most sandboxy games out there, off/on several months a year, I know many people there.  When I'm back we resume our play and keep on going.  The community is great and I just go right back in. 

I play them casually and will continue to do so as long as they cater to my playstyle. 

edit - in fact I will go further to say that the sandbox games are even more casual than themepark games and with a little bit of advertising others would know that as well.  Yes things do take a long time bu there are no or very few scheduled runs/timed raids, timed access for anything.  You just come in, work on whatever you want and leave.  The ultimate sandbox game is the ultimate casual game.

 

The thing is regardless of what people say the genre is built on long term operation cost.  Meaning, your not just shipping and recouping.   Your have a whole operation that runs for years that requires money.   This is where the obvious maintain a player base comes into play.  The genre is not designed to be causal.   This is why ALL casual games failed to hold subscribers. The two main reason for losing the subscription base is recycled/tired content(WoW clone) and too casual content(polling over concept)  with all the hooks of what make the MMORPG genre different from multiplayer and single player games.  

 

Lucky for the MMORPG developers they have ripe whales to shake down money from.  Never thought people would express their financial elitism and materialism over MMORPG's.  Even better for developers it seems spenders spend outside of the quality or scope of the game and you get free players at the same time to give the whales their audience.  How long will this trend continue could be forever or you could have a collapse of F2P.   I don't know if I want to create games where I rely that a majority won't support it financially or making long term operation game planned around short term gameplay.

 

 

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4485

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

8/27/13 7:33:52 PM#34
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
UO capped at 250k, EQ almost doubled that.  EQ did not go f2p because it was not profitable.  I would be today it still has more subs than UO.

internet wasnt as widespread when UO came out. the playerbase widened due to interent access meanwhile...greatly.

 

I wasnt online until 2001...in my little second world country.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4689

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/27/13 7:46:07 PM#35

They failed to maintain subscribers because maintaining 2 million subscribers is not reasonable, very very very few games have done that.

They have succeeded in having the same or higher populations as all the old games despite a 100 fold increase in the number of games.

The genre is absolutely designed to be casual.  Casual doesn't mean game hoppping.  Casual just means consuming in smaller time chunks.  The casuals dont' burn through the content therefore they don't demand the resources.  So fewer resources, more times for devs to do things, just as much money being brought.  Again it absolutely is designed for casuals.

@robokapp, no doubt other factors fall into play and that (along with many others) would account for UO and EQ, but not EQ vs SWG, DAOC, AC...

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19158

8/28/13 11:02:22 AM#36
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by nariusseldon  LoL a failure? It is bigger than WoW.
I wasn't aware League of Legends was a MMORPG. I must have missed that memo.
Close enough. It is even listed here, and included in many MMO reports. You are not paying attention to shifts in the industry.

No. Not close enough. League of Legends is a MOBA. That's an entirely different genre. Call of Duty is not a racing game, you'r point is moot.

 

Not close enough for you.

Close enough for me, for mmorpg.com, whatmmorpg.com, and many industry sites.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 998

8/28/13 5:49:15 PM#37
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

They failed to maintain subscribers because maintaining 2 million subscribers is not reasonable, very very very few games have done that.

They have succeeded in having the same or higher populations as all the old games despite a 100 fold increase in the number of games.

The genre is absolutely designed to be casual.  Casual doesn't mean game hoppping.  Casual just means consuming in smaller time chunks.  The casuals dont' burn through the content therefore they don't demand the resources.  So fewer resources, more times for devs to do things, just as much money being brought.  Again it absolutely is designed for casuals.

@robokapp, no doubt other factors fall into play and that (along with many others) would account for UO and EQ, but not EQ vs SWG, DAOC, AC...

 

You don't have to maintain millions in subs to be successful.  

 

The genre really isn't meant to be casual to the point you have people who won't spend a dime like their playing single player games.  The genre supports this right now though.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4689

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/28/13 5:58:01 PM#38
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

They failed to maintain subscribers because maintaining 2 million subscribers is not reasonable, very very very few games have done that.

They have succeeded in having the same or higher populations as all the old games despite a 100 fold increase in the number of games.

The genre is absolutely designed to be casual.  Casual doesn't mean game hoppping.  Casual just means consuming in smaller time chunks.  The casuals dont' burn through the content therefore they don't demand the resources.  So fewer resources, more times for devs to do things, just as much money being brought.  Again it absolutely is designed for casuals.

@robokapp, no doubt other factors fall into play and that (along with many others) would account for UO and EQ, but not EQ vs SWG, DAOC, AC...

 

You don't have to maintain millions in subs to be successful.  

 

The genre really isn't meant to be casual to the point you have people who won't spend a dime like their playing single player games.  The genre supports this right now though.

I don't think you need a million subs to be successfull either, and only a ouple have that, most do not and are still successfull.  It's just odd.  People seem to agree that it isn't reasonable for the average MMO to maintain a million plus subs, but then scream fail when a game a. fails to get that much on launch and/or b.  fails to maintain that much after launch.

A million + subs is not a reasonalbe target considering what 4-5 MMO's have ever done that and only 3 have sustained that?

All the others get 50-500k subs, so that is a reasonable number.

Your right, it is not designed to be casual to the point of paying no money.  That is whole different ball game and likley will catch up to them at some point, having 600+ mmo's pushes that further imo.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Briansho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/06
Posts: 4786

Functionless Art is Simply Tolerated Vandalism...We Are The Vandals.

8/28/13 7:37:11 PM#39
LOL if games don't have the subscription numbers like World of Warcraft then 99% of all the MMOs on the list have failed. What happens when World of Warcraft dips below the next in line? Everyone will say no big deal it's normal? Crazy LOL

Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 998

8/29/13 2:13:34 PM#40
Originally posted by Briansho
LOL if games don't have the subscription numbers like World of Warcraft then 99% of all the MMOs on the list have failed. What happens when World of Warcraft dips below the next in line? Everyone will say no big deal it's normal? Crazy LOL

 

They're failures if they're not financially viable to maintain themselves.  
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