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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Irony of the Sandbox MMO

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127 posts found
  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/27/13 8:13:20 AM#61
Originally posted by WW4BW
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by WW4BW
Originally posted by UNATCOII
 

  

  A guild asserting control is exactly the sort of emergent game play I expect from a sandbox.  And it is what I expected from any MMO when I first started playing. The whole villain/hero dynamic is important to me. I dont think I've been the villain much in my "gaming carreer".  Only instances I can think of has been in situations where the pvp was consentual. (I kept beating up on guys that came in looking for a fight and kept comming back for more,) 

  The sort of control you describe is only a real problem if the game mechanics prevent you from doing anything about it. Like if someone is camping a spawn or someone last hits and ninjas the loot or something.. if you are blocked from doing anything about that, because of some themepark mechanic then it detracts from the quality of the game.

You are looking at this wrong. Rather than fiddling around with retribution mechanics, why not get rid of all the things that create the need for retribution? Get rid of spawncamping, killstealing and ninja looting.

  But all of those things are interesting.. They are annoying too, of course, but if you can do something about the situation, then its a game building mechanic. If you cant do anything about it, then its a game breaker.

  You should be able to dominate a game resource and monopolize. But at the same time it needs to be allowed to steal it fgrom under your nose or kill you and take it from you.. Its a goal to play for from either side. At least thats the sandboxy way of it. You can have a perfectly good themepark where everyone gets their own private monsters and resources to play with. I just dont go for that single/lan play kind of mmo.

  Also I would claim that in many cases it takes just as much effort to fiddle around with protection mechanics.

 

Interesting to one player =/= fun for everyone.

 

Bottom line: is an action more of a hindrance or an asset?

 

Annoyances that add up causes player unease, and if that unease becomes too difficult, they leave.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5736

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

8/27/13 8:37:18 AM#62
Originally posted by WW4BW
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by WW4BW
 

You are looking at this wrong. Rather than fiddling around with retribution mechanics, why not get rid of all the things that create the need for retribution? Get rid of spawncamping, killstealing and ninja looting.

  But all of those things are interesting.. They are annoying too, of course, but if you can do something about the situation, then its a game building mechanic. If you cant do anything about it, then its a game breaker.

  You should be able to dominate a game resource and monopolize. But at the same time it needs to be allowed to steal it fgrom under your nose or kill you and take it from you.. Its a goal to play for from either side. At least thats the sandboxy way of it. You can have a perfectly good themepark where everyone gets their own private monsters and resources to play with. I just dont go for that single/lan play kind of mmo.

  Also I would claim that in many cases it takes just as much effort to fiddle around with protection mechanics.

I thought I would never hear griefing called a "game building mechanic"...

Griefing is not a zero sum situation. The displeasure one gets from being griefed is disproportionate to the pleasure one might get from griefing. And what is the objective of all this griefing? Does the player want to instigate PvP? And if the other player doesn't want to participate, what then? You just get one guy upset, and another slightly less so.

Meanwhile, nothing stops people from picking a game that doesn't have griefing over a game that does. The market for people who want to grief or want to be griefed is marginal at best. It is an unsustainable concept. Fuck everything "what sandboxes should be". It should be about serving the players. If you can't make something work, or it doesn't make sense, get rid of it.

Even if you don't admit it. Nobody has ever played a game specifically because it is an MMORPG or a sandbox or whatever. They play the game because it is fun. The game only happens to be a MMORPG, a sandbox, etc.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

8/27/13 8:40:08 AM#63


Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by WW4BW

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by WW4BW  
You are looking at this wrong. Rather than fiddling around with retribution mechanics, why not get rid of all the things that create the need for retribution? Get rid of spawncamping, killstealing and ninja looting.
  But all of those things are interesting.. They are annoying too, of course, but if you can do something about the situation, then its a game building mechanic. If you cant do anything about it, then its a game breaker.   You should be able to dominate a game resource and monopolize. But at the same time it needs to be allowed to steal it fgrom under your nose or kill you and take it from you.. Its a goal to play for from either side. At least thats the sandboxy way of it. You can have a perfectly good themepark where everyone gets their own private monsters and resources to play with. I just dont go for that single/lan play kind of mmo.   Also I would claim that in many cases it takes just as much effort to fiddle around with protection mechanics.
I thought I would never hear griefing called a "game building mechanic"...

Griefing is not a zero sum situation. The displeasure one gets from being griefed is disproportionate to the pleasure one might get from griefing. And what is the objective of all this griefing? Does the player want to instigate PvP? And if the other player doesn't want to participate, what then? You just get one guy upset, and another slightly less so.

Meanwhile, nothing stops people from picking a game that doesn't have griefing over a game that does. The market for people who want to grief or want to be griefed is marginal at best. It is an unsustainable concept. Fuck everything "what sandboxes should be". It should be about serving the players. If you can't make something work, or it doesn't make sense, get rid of it.

Even if you don't admit it. Nobody has ever played a game specifically because it is an MMORPG or a sandbox or whatever. They play the game because it is fun. The game only happens to be a MMORPG, a sandbox, etc.




Some people find game play that would otherwise be described as "griefing" fun. They are willing to put up with being griefed themselves, as long as they have the option to grief someone else.

Luckily, those people are few in number relative to all the other people, so there are plenty of games where game play that would otherwise be called "griefing" isn't a standard mechanic.

**

Lucky for me. Not for the people who like mechanics otherwise known as "griefing".

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

8/27/13 9:24:17 AM#64
Griefing isn't a problem. The problem is whenever the "good" guys want to play, the devs step in and "solve" the problem for us instead. Hardcore.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  wargfoot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/26/11
Posts: 53

8/27/13 9:28:34 AM#65

The term 'griefing' is terribly mis-used.

 

If you buy a PvP game, create a character, and log into the game then the act of someone killing you, despite the fact you had a bad day at work, isn't 'griefing' in any meaningful sense of the word.   It isn't any more 'griefing' then a Rook taking your Pawn in a game of chess.

 

For too many people the term 'griefing' means: "I didn't win the encounter" - and that is nonsense.

 

When I first started playing these games 'griefing' was things like teleporting someone to a 1 square island in Ultima Online, stealing their reagents, and leaving them stranded there for hours with no way to escape or play the game.  A game master had to intervene or the character would be there forever.   Another example might be in early LOTRO where is was possible to root an enemy player indefinitely - the spell could be recast before the root would break - you could hold a player, helpless, in place all evening long.

 

Now some players consider it 'griefing' if you beat them to a node and harvest it before they do.  

Those sorts of players should be banned from the game as quickly as real 'griefers'.

  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3213

"A very special kind of stupidity"

8/27/13 9:28:48 AM#66

So the tl;dr of the OP is:

An MMO that lets me do whatever I want will also let other people do whatever they want, and most people aren't good at dealing with that, and will complain like crazy that other people are "abusing" their freedom by "playing the game wrong".

 

The obvious solution is for MMO developers to create sandbox MMOs which are each sold only to one person; all the other "players" will actually be paid staff who will only play the game in the way in which the purchaser approves of.

Naturally the game will also have to be F2P. Nothing justifies a subscription in this day and age of free developers, electricity, servers, customer service, GMs, tech support and of course those tens of thousands of guys who'd better play the game my way if they don't want to be fired from their unpaid job.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3213

"A very special kind of stupidity"

8/27/13 9:32:55 AM#67
Originally posted by sportsfan

EVE is not a sandbox.

EVE is a gear grind just like WOW.

You try to better the avatar (space ship), not by doing Raids but by crafting and playing in its economy.

Of course it is different enough to warrant an exclusive public, but in the end it is the same:

 

Try to better the stats of parts of your avatar.

The rest is blablabla sandbox blablabla theme park and ..." I am more intelligent since I play a game that needs a spreadsheet".

 

End of story.

 

Give me Diablo 3 hardcore/resource economy over EVE any time. At least I can fight mobs there.

 

You're dead wrong. The "best" ship in the game, a Titan, is dead meat if you're caught in one alone. The quality of the group you belong to matters massively more than your personal gear in EVE.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/27/13 9:40:29 AM#68
Originally posted by itchmon

considering nearly everything in eve is crafted by players you can see how important CCP have made the ever belittled care bear to their game's economy. 

in this way, eve assured that PVE and PVP will simply have to make nice, and (except for hulkageddon!!!!) this arrangement has made it possible for many a so called care bear to step into the pvp sandbox of eve and find a home. 

this is the economic engine of eve but (and here i am nodding to the OP) what systems are in place to assure that pvp/ pve relationship is maintained?  the High-sec / low-sec / nullsec system.  in it, some places are delineated by the game as safer from ill wishing pvp'ers than others.  the only 100% time a player is safe is when they are docked, but in high sec one has a very good deal of protection, mostly in the form of very swift punishment that CONCORD (in game police) will dish out to outlaws.

 to me this is just what the doctor ordered when the OP expressed their concerns for any game in which griefing is allowed to turn lots of folks away from a sandbox MMO.  "a safe place".  as much as I love eve and CCP i don't think for a second that it would have survived this long without the sec system.

 lets compare this to Darkfall (current iteration).  in darkfall there are actual small corners of the map where pvp cannot occur whatsoever.   however everywhere else, people are free game and no punishment exists to prevent someone from ruining a peaceful player's harvesting run, etc.  I personally dont mind this approach to the point of excluding the game (i played it for a while and only quit because it had adverse effects on my CPU temperature... funny for an 8 core CPU but that's for another thread aint it).  but it does a whole lot to make the sandbox mmo experience more shallow for pve players and therefore, as pve players leave, more shallow overall.  for example, to play darkfall without getting frustrated to the point of pulling hair out, one NEEDS to acquire the mindset that gear is completely throwaway and you don't need to sweat the loss of your gear at all.  in eve your "gear" (space ship) is also destructable but the nature of eve's security systems allow for gear to be introduced into the game that takes great endeavors to produce, the loss of which would be a DRAMATIC blow not just to a player but to a whole alliance of players (eve players know i'm talking about titans).  emotional bonds to a game are part of what keeps a gamer coming back to a game; I know that i would be upset if i lost my PVE dominix that has served me in 0.0 unharmed by other players for 2 years.  that's a good thing for ccp.  i have an emotional bond to their game.  When i lost a set of gear in darkfall that i had actually crafted myself i simply went to my bank and got an identical set of gear and equipped it. 

i guess this is my long winded way of pretty much (but not exactly) agreeing with the OP.  though it should be reaffirmed that EQN can very easily be a sandbox MMO with no pvp whatsoever or (this is my preference) exist in multiple PVP states on multiple servers with different rulesets.

Well certainly PVEers are required by EVE's gameplay.  In that respect, "carebears" are thrown a small bone although they have to submit to one of the most boring PVE games ever in order to participate, so there's that (but just because EVE's PVE is ultra boring doesn't make your point less true.)

But it really doesn't justify the big piece PVEers don't want, which is wholly negative to them, in being forced to PVP occasionally (even in high-sec.)  While it fits in EVE's overall systems design, it really isn't the type of fun PVEers are looking for at all.

Especially since it's shallow PVP.  Personally I only PVE in MMORPGs.  But I PVP a lot.  In other games.  Because PVP in MMORPG involves so many non-skill factors like population (zerging) and progression (gear/level advantages) that it's very casual, shallow PVP.  While casual PVP works for some, my standards are higher than that.  (Though tragically I'm playing Planetside 2 right now.  PS2 involves both those non-skill factors which I feel almost cripple the game beyond playability.  But in absence of another deeper FPS lately, it feels like my only option.)

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

8/27/13 11:50:13 AM#69
Originally posted by wargfoot

The term 'griefing' is terribly mis-used.

 

If you buy a PvP game, create a character, and log into the game then the act of someone killing you, despite the fact you had a bad day at work, isn't 'griefing' in any meaningful sense of the word.   It isn't any more 'griefing' then a Rook taking your Pawn in a game of chess.

 

For too many people the term 'griefing' means: "I didn't win the encounter" - and that is nonsense.

 

When I first started playing these games 'griefing' was things like teleporting someone to a 1 square island in Ultima Online, stealing their reagents, and leaving them stranded there for hours with no way to escape or play the game.  A game master had to intervene or the character would be there forever.   Another example might be in early LOTRO where is was possible to root an enemy player indefinitely - the spell could be recast before the root would break - you could hold a player, helpless, in place all evening long.

 

Now some players consider it 'griefing' if you beat them to a node and harvest it before they do.  

Those sorts of players should be banned from the game as quickly as real 'griefers'.

 

 Griefing only occurs when one side is helpless. Only a developer can make that happen.

Otherwise it would be called gameplay instead of griefing.

Cheating is breaking the rules. That's what you're describing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Naqaj

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1681

8/27/13 11:52:26 AM#70
Originally posted by Eyesgood

The Irony of Sandbox MMO’s

 

[... FREEEDOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!] 

(paraphrased)

 

--Eyesgood

Programmer, writer, and MMO enthusiast

 

Consider an alternative explanation: it's not about freedom. It's about meaning. Or rather the illusion of meaning, as we're still talking about a virtual world, not the real one.

 

A sandbox MMO gives players tools to play the game in a way that makes their actions meaningful to the other players around them, as opposed to a themepark game where the existence of other players means little to nothing to you, and your own influence over others vanishes once you log off.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/27/13 11:55:54 AM#71
Originally posted by Malcanis

You're dead wrong. The "best" ship in the game, a Titan, is dead meat if you're caught in one alone. The quality of the group you belong to matters massively more than your personal gear in EVE.

Good to know. I don't depend on others for my fun. Now i have one more reason to avoid Eve (the first one is that it is easy-mode boring pve missions).

  ray12k

Novice Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 479

8/27/13 12:10:05 PM#72

I think your views are old ideas that have created this current crappy situation in mmorpgs today.

Since you mentioned minecraft... Minecraft has crappy graphics but many new players enjoy the freedom to play as they like. You have one of the most harsh death penalties I ever seen. But kids, moms and teens are addicted to this game. On private servers people enjoy pvping and exploring new areas with the sense of danger being every where.

 

The idea of having a game were you decide how to play has come full circle. I do beleive that  any successful game should have dedicated pvp worlds as well ass your standard carebear world options.

But if you claim to enjoy the freedom of emoting in a field you should respect another players freedom to gang bang you back to town until you can raise a force to take back your emote area.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/27/13 12:21:40 PM#73
Originally posted by ray12k

But if you claim to enjoy the freedom of emoting in a field you should respect another players freedom to gang bang you back to town until you can raise a force to take back your emote area.

 

nah .. i can simply not play such a game. Having others spoiling my fun is .. well .. not fun to me.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/27/13 12:39:07 PM#74


Originally posted by Axehilt

But it really doesn't justify the big piece PVEers don't want, which is wholly negative to them, in being forced to PVP occasionally (even in high-sec.)  While it fits in EVE's overall systems design, it really isn't the type of fun PVEers are looking for at all. Especially since it's shallow PVP.  Personally I only PVE in MMORPGs.  But I PVP a lot.  In other games.  Because PVP in MMORPG involves so many non-skill factors like population (zerging) and progression (gear/level advantages) that it's very casual, shallow PVP.  While casual PVP works for some, my standards are higher than that.  (Though tragically I'm playing Planetside 2 right now.  PS2 involves both those non-skill factors which I feel almost cripple the game beyond playability.  But in absence of another deeper FPS lately, it feels like my only option.)


 


That's the thing I really don't understand in all of this. It isn't that PvErs would shun PvP in itself (leveled my main in WoW through the BGs, and if Horde shows up, out there healing my allies), but PvP centric games pigeonhole PvE players to a corner for their activities, then make them the prey. It's the prey part that sucks. The PvPers will claim that's a consequence for choice, but the choice is the PvE aspect, not being prey.


EvE is a great example of it. Like the trade side of the game? You are prey. The hunters don't even need to be terribly geared, because the PvEr is even handicapped so the hunters can have easier kills (PvE activity ships like a mining barge are totally defense, you couldn't even shoot back. The Procurer has some tank, but what is a tank if you're being blasted by a cheap throw away Destroyer with Ion weapons? See? Their 2mil ISK ship will always destroy your 30mil ship). It's cheap kills in a game that gets off on it. They will claim, "mine in a fleet for protection", but they know the PvPers hate babysitting like that, which is why so many solo mine. They have their excuses all lined up in a row, yet the overall gameplay IS griefing -- the prey is 100% defense (no weapons) in a higher cost/fit/skill ship and the hunter is in a 100% offensive ship that can be cheaper than 1mil ISK to fit, requires a couple days of training, and it'll blow it apart. Designed top down for pure griefing.


I would play EvE more if the game wasn't so one sided in gameplay, and IF I had a fighting chance. A healer in WoW has more offensive abilities than a miner in EvE. That's what off, to make it where 30mil ISK mining ship will have to be attacked by a 30+mil ISK fighting ship, so some griefer can't brag he's some pro hunting 100% sitting ducks (the game is full of that gameplay...zero skill PvP). Even the skill time to PvE is longer than to PvP. O.o

  ray12k

Novice Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 479

8/27/13 12:42:25 PM#75
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ray12k

But if you claim to enjoy the freedom of emoting in a field you should respect another players freedom to gang bang you back to town until you can raise a force to take back your emote area.

 

nah .. i can simply not play such a game. Having others spoiling my fun is .. well .. not fun to me.

 

lol then a open game world is not for you. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/27/13 12:50:39 PM#76
Originally posted by ray12k
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ray12k

But if you claim to enjoy the freedom of emoting in a field you should respect another players freedom to gang bang you back to town until you can raise a force to take back your emote area.

 

nah .. i can simply not play such a game. Having others spoiling my fun is .. well .. not fun to me.

 

lol then a open game world is not for you. 

No. It is not. I don't mind an open world, but it is certainly not required for a game to be fun to me.

  Torik

Novice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2328

8/27/13 1:00:23 PM#77
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ray12k
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ray12k

But if you claim to enjoy the freedom of emoting in a field you should respect another players freedom to gang bang you back to town until you can raise a force to take back your emote area.

 

nah .. i can simply not play such a game. Having others spoiling my fun is .. well .. not fun to me.

 

lol then a open game world is not for you. 

No. It is not. I don't mind an open world, but it is certainly not required for a game to be fun to me.

I would love for a good open world non-PvP game to come out.  There is so much potential in the concept but it is stunted because most devs of these games cannot get over the FFA PvP trap.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

8/27/13 1:03:28 PM#78
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Malcanis

You're dead wrong. The "best" ship in the game, a Titan, is dead meat if you're caught in one alone. The quality of the group you belong to matters massively more than your personal gear in EVE.

Good to know. I don't depend on others for my fun. Now i have one more reason to avoid Eve (the first one is that it is easy-mode boring pve missions).

 I would say you're completely dependent on others for fun.

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  wargfoot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/26/11
Posts: 53

8/27/13 1:30:36 PM#79
Originally posted by ray12k

The idea of having a game were you decide how to play has come full circle. I do beleive that  any successful game should have dedicated pvp worlds as well ass your standard carebear world options.

But if you claim to enjoy the freedom of emoting in a field you should respect another players freedom to gang bang you back to town until you can raise a force to take back your emote area.

Part of the friction between the PVP crowd and the PVE crowd is the idea that any one game has to make both groups happy.

I don't hold that to be true.

 

Look at the game list on this site.

 

There are hundreds of games out there now - there is no need for one title to attempt to make both these groups happy and because of this, there is no reason for these two groups to hate one another because they should be playing entire worlds apart.

If someone wants to play a Korean bling-bling game that has virtual slot machines that give out fuzzy pink unicorns for the players to ride I wish them a world of fun but I won't be there.   No reason to be upset with them and their game choices.  Likewise, some people just want to come home and relax so the thrill of PvP is lost on them. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/27/13 1:35:08 PM#80
Originally posted by Torik
 

I would love for a good open world non-PvP game to come out.  There is so much potential in the concept but it is stunted because most devs of these games cannot get over the FFA PvP trap.

Not in SP games. GTA and SKYRIM seems to have taken that concept and fun.

Those are not my kind of games (i don't like gangster games, and there is too much walking in SKYRIM) but i can't fault them for being successful open world games.

 

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