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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Irony of the Sandbox MMO

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127 posts found
  ShortyBible

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/10
Posts: 283

8/26/13 5:16:39 PM#41
Originally posted by Ehliya
Originally posted by fardreamer
get your "truths"  about humans checked. not all people are greedy selfish, whatever.,

IRL, yes.  In fact, IRL there are tons of incentives for people to act altruistically, honorably, obey the law, etc.  That is because RL has consequences and there is a finality to choices. 

 

This is why I asked the question, would permadeath be a good option for murders?

In a game with permadeath full loot ffa pvp only good/confident players would choose to be outcasts.

I think I could play a game with this type of risk/reward system.

By the way I am an old man and cannot pvp :)

I would be the victim, but I would respect/fear the outcast. :)

The bullies/wannabes would be playing some other game :)

http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415

  itchmon

Elite Member

Joined: 1/21/07
Posts: 1551

8/26/13 5:28:30 PM#42

as a post above mentioned, the answer to "does a sandbox NEED to have PVP?" is "no."

 

the OP makes some points that i sorta kinda agree with regarding MMO which do have pvp.  from now on in this post if i say "sandbox mmo" i'm talking about one with pvp.

 

I'm going to do what i can't help doing and use as my primary examples the 2 sandbox mmo that i have the most experience with, and that i enjoy / enjoyed the most:  eve and darkfalll.

 

Eve is of course the big, famous, monster sandbox and in my opinion the most successful MMO ever made vis a vis immersion.  Darkfall is (on the surface at least) the sandbox mmo chosen by people who think even the harsh world of eve is too warm and squishy.

 

The majority of folks playing eve don't grief, don't steal, don't scam, and don't even pvp often.  Even players who live in null-sec (me, for example) can spend most of their time in peaceful pursuits and only kick on the violence switch when "duty calls" (ex; home defense).  Yet, eve revolves around PVP.  Literally.  Even the Ship materials buyer/trader who spends his time hauling minerals thru high sec is feeding the PVP furnace of eve.  in PVP ships blow up.  then PVP folks need more ships.  then they buy ships from non PVP folks who constructed them, who in turn constructed them out of minerals mined by a non PVP miner.  considering nearly everything in eve is crafted by players you can see how important CCP have made the ever belittled care bear to their game's economy.

 

in this way, eve assured that PVE and PVP will simply have to make nice, and (except for hulkageddon!!!!) this arrangement has made it possible for many a so called care bear to step into the pvp sandbox of eve and find a home.

 

this is the economic engine of eve but (and here i am nodding to the OP) what systems are in place to assure that pvp/ pve relationship is maintained?  the High-sec / low-sec / nullsec system.  in it, some places are delineated by the game as safer from ill wishing pvp'ers than others.  the only 100% time a player is safe is when they are docked, but in high sec one has a very good deal of protection, mostly in the form of very swift punishment that CONCORD (in game police) will dish out to outlaws.

 

to me this is just what the doctor ordered when the OP expressed their concerns for any game in which griefing is allowed to turn lots of folks away from a sandbox MMO.  "a safe place".  as much as I love eve and CCP i don't think for a second that it would have survived this long without the sec system.

 

lets compare this to Darkfall (current iteration).  in darkfall there are actual small corners of the map where pvp cannot occur whatsoever.   however everywhere else, people are free game and no punishment exists to prevent someone from ruining a peaceful player's harvesting run, etc.  I personally dont mind this approach to the point of excluding the game (i played it for a while and only quit because it had adverse effects on my CPU temperature... funny for an 8 core CPU but that's for another thread aint it).  but it does a whole lot to make the sandbox mmo experience more shallow for pve players and therefore, as pve players leave, more shallow overall.  for example, to play darkfall without getting frustrated to the point of pulling hair out, one NEEDS to acquire the mindset that gear is completely throwaway and you don't need to sweat the loss of your gear at all.  in eve your "gear" (space ship) is also destructable but the nature of eve's security systems allow for gear to be introduced into the game that takes great endeavors to produce, the loss of which would be a DRAMATIC blow not just to a player but to a whole alliance of players (eve players know i'm talking about titans).  emotional bonds to a game are part of what keeps a gamer coming back to a game; I know that i would be upset if i lost my PVE dominix that has served me in 0.0 unharmed by other players for 2 years.  that's a good thing for ccp.  i have an emotional bond to their game.  When i lost a set of gear in darkfall that i had actually crafted myself i simply went to my bank and got an identical set of gear and equipped it.

 

i guess this is my long winded way of pretty much (but not exactly) agreeing with the OP.  though it should be reaffirmed that EQN can very easily be a sandbox MMO with no pvp whatsoever or (this is my preference) exist in multiple PVP states on multiple servers with different rulesets.

 

thanx for reading

 

Da Skull

RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

Dwight D Eisenhower

My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

Henry Rollins

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6980

8/26/13 5:43:09 PM#43


Originally posted by wargfoot

Could you give examples of your claim?

Um...without going to refute every single line seperatedly, because pretty much every single line is flawed, I would sum up the fallacy of OP:

The force behind the change is economical, not the demand. There is no rise of people asking sandbox games, it is just development of standard model MMO is way too expensive and some developers are trying out new possible, profitable approach how to make a game.

Quite tiring, repeated ad nausea fallacy of looking at MMO development from "gamer" point of view. Games are not made for nor by "gamers", they are made to make money.

And last, but not least, when a game developer announce a development of "sandbox" game, it can mean basically anything...and people like to fill the holes with wishful thinking.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

8/26/13 5:50:23 PM#44


Originally posted by Ehliya

Originally posted by fardreamer get your "truths"  about humans checked. not all people are greedy selfish, whatever.,
IRL, yes.  In fact, IRL there are tons of incentives for people to act altruistically, honorably, obey the law, etc.  That is because RL has consequences and there is a finality to choices.  Some of the most effective contributors to peace and human progress have used non-violent means.

Not so in your usual PVP-enabled MMO world.

In a PVP MMO, consequences are usually (and necessarily, of course) trivial.  Anonymity removes a veneer of social control and incentive to behave in ways that invite reciprocal positive behavior.  Online brings out the worst in human nature.  If you give people power in MMO, a large percentage (much much larger than RL) will abuse it to harm others.

Gandhi, Mandela, Einstein - none of these folks would have survived to adult hood in your typical MMO with PVP.  They would have been bumped off by DetHz0r666 for no reason other than because he could.

That is why true unrestricted PVP games are so rare.  They become wastelands where the worst elements of the online world congregate to drive off everyone else.

 




Even without those consequences people do not act like unrestrained murderers as they do in most MMORPGs where it's possible to do so. The Wild West was not nearly as murderous as it was portrayed in movies. The small town I live in has more murders per capita than any Wild West town did and there are certainly more consequences now than there were then. Most people don't need much of an excuse to not behave like sociopaths IRL. In video games, unless it's impossible or the options extremely limited, acting like a sociopath or a psychopath is SOP.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Banquetto

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1027

8/26/13 5:52:17 PM#45
The irony of the sandbox MMO is that the term was coined to refer to building sandcastles, but most people who clamour for a sandbox want rather to kick sand in other peoples' faces.
  wsmar

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/09
Posts: 122

8/26/13 5:55:05 PM#46
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by wargfoot

Could you give examples of your claim?

 

Um...without going to refute every single line seperatedly, because pretty much every single line is flawed, I would sum up the fallacy of OP:

The force behind the change is economical, not the demand. There is no rise of people asking sandbox games, it is just development of standard model MMO is way too expensive and some developers are trying out new possible, profitable approach how to make a game.

Quite tiring, repeated ad nausea fallacy of looking at MMO development from "gamer" point of view. Games are not made for nor by "gamers", they are made to make money.

And last, but not least, when a game developer announce a development of "sandbox" game, it can mean basically anything...and people like to fill the holes with wishful thinking.

If that was really the case then there wouldn't be several AAA MMO's that were either totally sandboxes, or had aspects of sandboxes, coming out relatively soon. People are looking for something different besides the traditional theme park because for many people it has gotten old.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/26/13 5:59:22 PM#47


Originally posted by itchmon

in this way, eve assured that PVE and PVP will simply have to make nice, and (except for hulkageddon!!!!) this arrangement has made it possible for many a so called care bear to step into the pvp sandbox of eve and find a home.



Yet carebearing in EvE isn't really a supported game style. If you're a nullbear, you're also out of your element, because PvP is the prime focus of EvE. It's nice that there is some PvE concepts, but you know full well that miner is prey, thus, your Hulkageddon remark. ;)


EvE isn't a good example of a sandbox game, too many other aspects in it that prevents having a true sandbox. I call EvE sandbox in name only, because the illusion is there of a sandbox (no "!" signs over agent heads [though you're reminded they are there when you dock]; you are free to travel and all), but that illusion ends beyond the safety of high-sec. Then it becomes a EQ style game, with one avatar guild dictating access to content and controlling the server economy. So, truly, it's not truly a sandbox game.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6980

8/26/13 6:00:25 PM#48


Originally posted by wsmar

People are looking for something different besides the traditional theme park because for many people it has gotten old.

Yet, people every year spent more and more money on traditional themepark games.

When devs say "It's going to be a sandbox", it is likely vastly different from what you consider yourself a sandbox, you just fill blanks with wishful thinking, denying reality...

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1306

8/26/13 7:04:58 PM#49

I don't feel Minecraft played a role in sandbox MMO's coming to fruition so much as people consistently complaining about how all the MMO's are the same... Just looking at this forums history alone over the past few years speaks volumes.

 

As for your opinion on PvP, I can only assume that you were picked on in real life and have carried that with you to present day. You really seem to have an issue with being pushed around. I won't lie, I was sometimes the bully in real life, but in UO (a game which proved you have no idea what you are talking about) I was the good guy. I pk'd a few times, just for the rush as I was new to it all. My guys name was Buddy (had a couple other 7x gms too). I joined a guild, hunted PK'ers for other newbs or new chars in dungeons like Shame. Often there weren't many PK'ers around... they would be in predictable places to fight others who wanted the same. I ended up discovering new areas/zones most of the time. Finding the ostrich looking lizard mount thing before most had was awesome. Made so much $$ off that lol. Anyway, regarding pk'ers, It was obvious to avoid brit graveyard for a year before they moved west and camped a portal. Even then, die to them and run at them naked upon repsawn and they usually just let you be lol. The game was more exciting because you had to avoid the main road when travelling in certain areas, and you were always in danger. Whether it be an npc or player. That's not griefing to me, thats frickin roleplaying. You think you'd be travelling safely everywhere hundreds of years ago? Nope. Griefing is that rare douchebag in the newbie zone who hunts you down till someone high level clears them out. In UO there was no such area.

 

In UO your char would actually feel different from others. Whether it be how you distributed your LIMITED amount of 700 skill points, your appearance, your items, your home, later your customized home, your mount (some harder to get), your pets... guild designation (wars/alliances/colours), order vs chaos... so much of the game was optional to really make your one char different from another of yours or anyone elses. And dont get me wrong, there was cookie cutter builds, but the other things helped. I could go on and on about things that can set you apart from others... but it's all been said far too often :(

 Oh and too add one thing. There were no rewards for being the good guy. Yet the majority were just that... the good guy.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

8/26/13 7:16:16 PM#50
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by wsmar

People are looking for something different besides the traditional theme park because for many people it has gotten old.

 

Yet, people every year spent more and more money on traditional themepark games.

When devs say "It's going to be a sandbox", it is likely vastly different from what you consider yourself a sandbox, you just fill blanks with wishful thinking, denying reality...

Or they can play MOBA, ARPG, MMO shooters, and other online games. No one says people have to stay with MMORPGs. In fact, didn't i read many here don't even play MMORPGs anymore?

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

8/26/13 9:25:44 PM#51

The irony of the sandbox is that a themepark is just a gamified sandbox.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Venger

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/04
Posts: 1322

Help Fight Global Warming
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8/26/13 10:13:34 PM#52
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Venger
Unfortunately many gamers especially the vocal ones here can't see past their own wants to see logic.

Do you have something to say to anyone?

No, no one in particular.  Just when it comes to sandbox games/pvp discussions logic pretty much flies out the window.

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 491

8/26/13 10:13:36 PM#53
Originally posted by UNATCOII

 


Originally posted by itchmon

 

in this way, eve assured that PVE and PVP will simply have to make nice, and (except for hulkageddon!!!!) this arrangement has made it possible for many a so called care bear to step into the pvp sandbox of eve and find a home.


 


Yet carebearing in EvE isn't really a supported game style. If you're a nullbear, you're also out of your element, because PvP is the prime focus of EvE. It's nice that there is some PvE concepts, but you know full well that miner is prey, thus, your Hulkageddon remark. ;)


EvE isn't a good example of a sandbox game, too many other aspects in it that prevents having a true sandbox. I call EvE sandbox in name only, because the illusion is there of a sandbox (no "!" signs over agent heads [though you're reminded they are there when you dock]; you are free to travel and all), but that illusion ends beyond the safety of high-sec. Then it becomes a EQ style game, with one avatar guild dictating access to content and controlling the server economy. So, truly, it's not truly a sandbox game.

   Agents are pure themepark. But you can take it or leave it. And there are more than one way of dealing with the missions. They are simply a crutch to shore up the game play while you figure out what else to do. The game could, in theory, work without any agent missions at all. And, in the past atleast, they have been a source of problems for the in-game economy. But before I skilled up much and before many of the easy mode ships were added, they used to be a real challenge. And they still are to a lesser degree. I was still trying to cut time off my missions or complete them with less ammo spent, when I stopped playing.

  A guild asserting control is exactly the sort of emergent game play I expect from a sandbox.  And it is what I expected from any MMO when I first started playing. The whole villain/hero dynamic is important to me. I dont think I've been the villain much in my "gaming carreer".  Only instances I can think of has been in situations where the pvp was consentual. (I kept beating up on guys that came in looking for a fight and kept comming back for more,) 

  The sort of control you describe is only a real problem if the game mechanics prevent you from doing anything about it. Like if someone is camping a spawn or someone last hits and ninjas the loot or something.. if you are blocked from doing anything about that, because of some themepark mechanic then it detracts from the quality of the game.

  sportsfan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 365

8/27/13 12:57:50 AM#54

EVE is not a sandbox.

EVE is a gear grind just like WOW.

You try to better the avatar (space ship), not by doing Raids but by crafting and playing in its economy.

Of course it is different enough to warrant an exclusive public, but in the end it is the same:

 

Try to better the stats of parts of your avatar.

The rest is blablabla sandbox blablabla theme park and ..." I am more intelligent since I play a game that needs a spreadsheet".

 

End of story.

 

Give me Diablo 3 hardcore/resource economy over EVE any time. At least I can fight mobs there.

 

 

 

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1086

8/27/13 1:37:37 AM#55

There's a certain sort of gamer (refered to by the OP as 'bullies') that aren't playing the game everyone else is.  They're working on making someone behind another keyboard or controller feel bad.   Game companies know that those bullies drive off playing (and paying) customers.  The more a game allows them to easily do this, the more will show up to partake.  But their numbers will never match that of the people they drive off.

 

And, running a sandbox game is not easy.  The UO staff were continually pulling their hair out at bad behavior and  exploits that caused the devs constant trouble.    Ill prepared 'sandboxy' games will be discovering this once again.   Unless they've really done their homework.  

 

 

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12278

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

8/27/13 2:04:44 AM#56
Originally posted by Gdemami

Originally posted by wargfoot

Could you give examples of your claim?

 

Um...without going to refute every single line seperatedly, because pretty much every single line is flawed, I would sum up the fallacy of OP:

The force behind the change is economical, not the demand. There is no rise of people asking sandbox games, it is just development of standard model MMO is way too expensive and some developers are trying out new possible, profitable approach how to make a game.

Quite tiring, repeated ad nausea fallacy of looking at MMO development from "gamer" point of view. Games are not made for nor by "gamers", they are made to make money.

And last, but not least, when a game developer announce a development of "sandbox" game, it can mean basically anything...and people like to fill the holes with wishful thinking.

Going to have to agree with Gdemami here. The OP sets up his own definition of sandbox and his own version of history to base his arguments around, resulting in some really odd and flawed conclusions - which is a shame because there is a decent amount of truth to a good portion of what he presents, especially the overview of the general interests regarding sandbox content.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/27/13 5:31:29 AM#57


Originally posted by WW4BW

  A guild asserting control is exactly the sort of emergent game play I expect from a sandbox.


 


That isn't sandbox, that's EQ/EQII and they're definitely not sandbox games.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5544

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

8/27/13 5:54:28 AM#58
Originally posted by WW4BW
Originally posted by UNATCOII
 

   Agents are pure themepark. But you can take it or leave it. And there are more than one way of dealing with the missions. They are simply a crutch to shore up the game play while you figure out what else to do. The game could, in theory, work without any agent missions at all. And, in the past atleast, they have been a source of problems for the in-game economy. But before I skilled up much and before many of the easy mode ships were added, they used to be a real challenge. And they still are to a lesser degree. I was still trying to cut time off my missions or complete them with less ammo spent, when I stopped playing.

  A guild asserting control is exactly the sort of emergent game play I expect from a sandbox.  And it is what I expected from any MMO when I first started playing. The whole villain/hero dynamic is important to me. I dont think I've been the villain much in my "gaming carreer".  Only instances I can think of has been in situations where the pvp was consentual. (I kept beating up on guys that came in looking for a fight and kept comming back for more,) 

  The sort of control you describe is only a real problem if the game mechanics prevent you from doing anything about it. Like if someone is camping a spawn or someone last hits and ninjas the loot or something.. if you are blocked from doing anything about that, because of some themepark mechanic then it detracts from the quality of the game.

You are looking at this wrong. Rather than fiddling around with retribution mechanics, why not get rid of all the things that create the need for retribution? Get rid of spawncamping, killstealing and ninja looting.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 491

8/27/13 7:02:58 AM#59
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by WW4BW
Originally posted by UNATCOII
 

  

  A guild asserting control is exactly the sort of emergent game play I expect from a sandbox.  And it is what I expected from any MMO when I first started playing. The whole villain/hero dynamic is important to me. I dont think I've been the villain much in my "gaming carreer".  Only instances I can think of has been in situations where the pvp was consentual. (I kept beating up on guys that came in looking for a fight and kept comming back for more,) 

  The sort of control you describe is only a real problem if the game mechanics prevent you from doing anything about it. Like if someone is camping a spawn or someone last hits and ninjas the loot or something.. if you are blocked from doing anything about that, because of some themepark mechanic then it detracts from the quality of the game.

You are looking at this wrong. Rather than fiddling around with retribution mechanics, why not get rid of all the things that create the need for retribution? Get rid of spawncamping, killstealing and ninja looting.

  But all of those things are interesting.. They are annoying too, of course, but if you can do something about the situation, then its a game building mechanic. If you cant do anything about it, then its a game breaker.

  You should be able to dominate a game resource and monopolize. But at the same time it needs to be allowed to steal it fgrom under your nose or kill you and take it from you.. Its a goal to play for from either side. At least thats the sandboxy way of it. You can have a perfectly good themepark where everyone gets their own private monsters and resources to play with. I just dont go for that single/lan play kind of mmo.

  Also I would claim that in many cases it takes just as much effort to fiddle around with protection mechanics.

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 491

8/27/13 7:11:47 AM#60
Originally posted by UNATCOII

 


Originally posted by WW4BW

 

  A guild asserting control is exactly the sort of emergent game play I expect from a sandbox.


 

 


That isn't sandbox, that's EQ/EQII and they're definitely not sandbox games.

  It is. And while I wouldnt call EQ or EQ2 sandbox games, they certainly had sandbox elements, this is just one of those.

  I shouldnt really put out claims about EQ2, though, since I only tried it for like 15 minutes. But I recon Im on safe ground with my point above.

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