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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Irony of the Sandbox MMO

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127 posts found
  Venger

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/04
Posts: 1322

Help Fight Global Warming
Shut Your Mouth :D

8/26/13 12:06:04 PM#21
+1 for the wall of logic.  Unfortunately many gamers especially the vocal ones here can't see past their own wants to see logic.
  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2555

8/26/13 12:12:26 PM#22
Originally posted by Eyesgood

The Irony of Sandbox MMO’s

 

     Since Minecraft arrived on the scene in May of 2009, the sandbox gaming concept has been propelled into the forefront of multiplayer online gaming design.  Recent announcements of EverQuest Next utilizing a voxel-based engine to create a player manipulated world shows that even big AAA game studios like Sony Online Entertainment recognize the appeal of user-created content, and how mutable worlds and online gaming are a perfect match for both developers and gamers alike.

 

     At the core of this sandbox concept is the idea of player freedom:  freedom to create; freedom to control; freedom to change; freedom to just be.  There are varying degrees of sandbox implementations in the market with many more upcoming titles that all seek to elevate the sandbox concept to its fullest essence.  A few will succeed while many more will utterly fail.

 

     I have seen something of an irony in the sandbox MMO that I feel compelled to share with the gaming community.  I think the sandbox paradigm will be greatly crippled if this irony is not dealt with carefully before the masses come to see what a sandbox MMO really means.

 

     The irony is simply that the concept of the sandbox demands that players be given as much control of the world as can be possible.  On the surface this sounds brilliant and tantalizing to say the least.  Less pre-defined content for more dynamic player-driven content is so inviting.  But giving players ultimate control of the game world ultimately draws out the basic human evils of greed, grief, and selfishness.  It is no longer enough to complete a quest, receive a reward, and add a point, a title, or a level.  Some gamers are so intoxicated by the prospects of power and control that they transform themselves into monsters bent on the destruction of everyone who stands in their way.

 

     This brings me to one of the greatest appeals of the sandbox – PVP.  The freedom to perform player-vs-player combat is often the very gauge to the perceived potential for success or failure in an MMO.  It may sound as if I am bashing the whole idea of PVP.  In fact, I am not.  PVP is the ultimate challenge because it involves battling with a human foe rather than a computer one.  But what I am saying is studios that wish to step into the sandbox world need to realize a few critical truths of human nature if they want their games to not only be successful but also profitable. 

 

     First, coming from a gamer’s mindset; I want to list some of the important aspects to the sandbox that many gamers feel are most important.  Then, I want to present the dangers of allowing PVP to co-exist with the same level of freedom as other game mechanics.

 

     I do presume here to place myself as a representative of the average sandbox gamer.  For that, I cannot help but admit it is an assumption.  But read on and see if you do not feel similarly as I do, and if not – that’s your right to disagree.

 

     So, what is most important to us sandbox gamers?  I think freedom to set ones path and direction is most important.  We want to log in and decide what we do, where we go, what skills we grind, and how we progress our character’s development.  Next, the quality of the tools with which we accomplish these tasks is most important.  That means a deep, complicated, and respectable crafting system is a must.  Individuality is also most important.  We do not want to spend hours, days, months, or years developing our unique characters only to realize they are not very unique at all.  Finally, the concept of ownership is most important.  Why do we delve into virtual online worlds in the first place?  We do so to be what perhaps we cannot be. Or maybe we do so to exercise our own creativity and power of imagination.  Whatever the reason, sandbox MMO’s afford the opportunity to express oneself in ways not possible in other types of games.  These are some of the most important concepts to, I dare say, most players in a sandbox game. 

 

     So now, enter human nature of a lesser degree.  MMO’s are like real-life playgrounds.  The reality of every playground is that there are two kinds of dwellers there.  There are the peaceful players and there are the bullies.  Every playground has them and the sandbox MMO is no different.   The bullies are the power-hungry players that have nothing more in mind than to intimidate, hurt, and control.  They look for every single opportunity to exploit the game rules.  It is as much a challenge to cheat the game mechanics as it is to rob and steal from the players.  They have very shallow but also very deep goals.  They just want to be an outlaw, an outcast, or an outlandish character.  They want to be feared.  They want respect.  They want power.  They want and they take whatever they can.  The villainy of these goals is not necessarily my point.  But it is the irony I am writing about and here it is.   Just as in real life, there are vastly more peaceful players in the playground than there are bullies. 

 

     Those developers who seek to provide the ultimate PVP experience inevitably come to realize that the bullies run everyone else out of the sandbox.  It never fails!  However, the bullies rarely provide enough of a return to hold up the game for very long just because of sheer numbers.  This is a problem both for the developers and the gaming community in general.

 

     The truth is, the playground needs the peaceful players in order to be viable.  Without them, the bullies have little to do but vex themselves out of existence.  You see, they all want to be the best and those who do not make it in one game will run to another.  Thus, they tire quickly and leave for better prospects.  In other words, you cannot expect the bullies to be loyal to your game.

 

     This is not the case with the peaceful players.  They invest time, money, talents, and creativity.  They are in it for the long haul.  They are the ones who hold up the game financially.  They give life and beauty to the sandbox world.  They add human touches that cannot be realized otherwise.  Without them, all is dead and wasted space, time, and money.

 

     Since it is a reality that both co-exist to some degree or another in every sandbox MMO, I want to offer some insights on how they might happily co-exist to the mutual benefit of both.  First, full-loot does not have to mean scorched earth.  In order to draw out the peaceful players into the inevitable conflicts of the world, they must have a respite.  They must have knowledge that there is always a home to run to.  If you take that home away from them, or fail to provide that home, they will not stay long.  Games that allow PVP bullies to destroy the hard work of peaceful, crafter-like players indiscriminately and with no recourse do so to their own detriment.  There must be some safe havens and untouchable realms in order to make entering the fray of battle interesting, promising, and fulfilling to them.  Second, perma-death never works.  I said perma-death NEVER works.  Bullies love perma-death because it means they can totally wipe out anyone they choose.  It puts them in ultimate control.  But such mechanics drive away the largest audience.  This is especially true in games that offer deeply complicated crafting systems.  The more complex the creativity the more there is a need to protect that investment.  Let a win on the field of battle be sufficient for the bully and the peaceful crafter will come back to fight again.  But give the bully the tools to totally annihilate and you are all but guaranteeing their target will go someplace else – maybe to another game altogether.   Next, give the peaceful players the option to play in a peaceful playground if they choose.  This is a simple but sometimes stubbornly-ignored or refused option.  But it is in fact a win-win for the developers and the players.  Often, the income generated from care-bear players more than funds the game.  There is no shame in the concept to include this feature – only shame for not recognizing the need for it.

 

     Finally, it is not enough to plop players down in a game world and have them duke it out to the death in a player-controlled environment.  Law and order has its proper place.  You can have a great PVP game when you properly match risk and reward for everyone, not just for the bullies.  Provide protection to keep the larger player-base alive and thriving.  Give them a reason to support the Great Cause.  Provide reward for those who wish to seek fame and fortune, yes, but with controls in place so their base nature does not drive away your base players.  You cannot eliminate the bullies and unfortunately, most want them in the game if not for any other reason that the hero/villain paradigm.  This is fine.  But in your attempt to be more exciting, more thrilling, more dangerous, and more real to life, don’t forget that there are vastly more peoples out of prison than there are in.  And they are the ones who pay the taxes!

 

--Eyesgood

 Programmer, writer, and MMO enthusiast

If you are a writer - you should know better than to just put a wall of text out there - poor writing skills.

 

I fixed it for you  and increased the font size - makes it easier to read for us old guys.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1039

8/26/13 1:50:04 PM#23

I agree.   I think if your going to go hardcore with PvP.  You have to go hardcore with player enforcement.

 

You need ways to make the players accountable.  You need things to deter predators from running off prey and hunters.  

  wargfoot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/26/11
Posts: 52

8/26/13 2:42:11 PM#24

This isn't going to be popular, but we really need a developer willing to protect the game world.

What I mean is that there is a certain percentage of gamers that enjoy ruining other people's fun and they live to do this in any way possible.   They do this in PVE games and they do this in PVP games.   At some point developers need to start identifying this minority of players and simply enforce an @$$-hat rule.

Sorry, you're an @$$-hat, here is refund, don't come back.

A developer once shared that in Ultima Online there was a period of time when a small group of PKs could generate hundreds of support calls per night.  Hundreds.   Instead of putting up with that why not take those few players, hand 'em back their money and boot 'em out of the  game?

Obviously such a rule would have to be handled by a very well trained set of community managers, but let's be honest here, for the most part we know who the @$$-hats are in every game - just get rid of them.

Right now we're experiencing this in LOTRO.  We've a few rank farmers on every server (cheat to get rank/power/etc.) and instead of getting rid of those few players the staff at Turbine throws up their hands and surrenders the entire game to @$$-hats.  So guess what?  Most of the good players are now leaving because Turbine is too stupid to protect their own product.

Protect your game world.

Do so without apology.

  Gnostik

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/12
Posts: 47

8/26/13 2:52:18 PM#25

I love PvP and I support this post. Bullies are doubly annoying to me, because they don't just ruin people's game experience, they give all PvPers a bad name.

 

In my head it's not hard to imagine a compelling PvP system that's integrated into the game world in a meaningful way and still preserves a safe PvE experience. If player-controlled factions within the game are compelled to fight over land and resources, that immediately funnels most of the PvP to certain areas. Safe areas are created via the same faction system, with guards and watchtowers providing coverage over clearly-defined area.

 

After that, all that's left is to deal with the odd griefer who seeks out PvE players in un-safe areas and attempts to disrupt their experience. (This could be either a solo player a group attempting open-world content.) This could be dealt with in a number of ways. Criminal systems, divine intervention, and yes, perhaps bans for the worst offenders.

 

In reality, though, I imagine it's quite hard to get this right, because no game really has.

 

Having said all that, I would also point out that PvP isn't the only area where bullies have to be dealt with when you have a completely dynamic world like EQN does. But I've heard the devs mention several times that they're considering and planning how to circumvent griefers given the systems they have in place. We'll just have to wait and see how effect their methods are.

 

But on the whole, I definitely agree: the community becomes a big wild card when you offer more freedom. Robust tools for dealing with bullies are essential.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/26/13 3:52:50 PM#26
Originally posted by wargfoot

This isn't going to be popular, but we really need a developer willing to protect the game world.

What I mean is that there is a certain percentage of gamers that enjoy ruining other people's fun and they live to do this in any way possible.   They do this in PVE games and they do this in PVP games.   At some point developers need to start identifying this minority of players and simply enforce an @$$-hat rule.

Sorry, you're an @$$-hat, here is refund, don't come back.

A developer once shared that in Ultima Online there was a period of time when a small group of PKs could generate hundreds of support calls per night.  Hundreds.   Instead of putting up with that why not take those few players, hand 'em back their money and boot 'em out of the  game?

Obviously such a rule would have to be handled by a very well trained set of community managers, but let's be honest here, for the most part we know who the @$$-hats are in every game - just get rid of them.

Right now we're experiencing this in LOTRO.  We've a few rank farmers on every server (cheat to get rank/power/etc.) and instead of getting rid of those few players the staff at Turbine throws up their hands and surrenders the entire game to @$$-hats.  So guess what?  Most of the good players are now leaving because Turbine is too stupid to protect their own product.

Protect your game world.

Do so without apology.

 

Those players unfortunately are part of the internet itself -- 4chan; alt.flame; Something Awful community -- they seed the behavior that has become almost acceptable on the internet. To get rid of the behaviors they find esteem in games, is like trying to get all those who cuss out of the game. It's possible, but there won't be as many people playing as games that allow all the rift raft in.

 

I'm older and was raised in a different era in a locale that from school onwards there is a strict code of conduct (public school kids wear uniforms to school upto high school even now). In my day guys didn't cuss in front of women if they had any decency, that was the trailer trash to avoid as they're uncouth thugs. It wasn't an Ozzie and Harriet life, but there's a certain standard of behavior that wasn't San Francisco free, either. So imagine coming online during this internet bubble in the 90s, and what was said and what could be seen. Big culture shock. Too this day I play MMOs very carefully, as the behavior of this new age of gamer is not acceptable to me at all, they're like Martians (when devs resemble Martians too I also question if their product is worth investing in, because they don't even respect others with different social/moral/ethic values).

 

MMO communities online are no different than offline. The same people on the street in RL are online in games, from the business man in his suit and tie, to the guy drinking his Colt .45 after shooting himself with heroin. In RL, communities segregated themselves from certain elements, even in rich or poor areas depending on moral/ethical values. This doesn't happen online in games, and that's a problem (and no, hiding in a guild doesn't eliminate the problem). We're forced to deal with the thugs, because it behooves the game companies to put everyone together, as it's cheaper to manage. It isn't fun though. I don't want to group up with people who culturally are so foreign and rude that it's not fun to me to group with them. I also don't want to work in a game to try to find the 10 or 25 others who don't cuss like a sailor, and have some idea of a work ethic to do things together longer than 2hrs. So I play MMOs not so much for it's group content because the community itself isn't conductive, to me, to do so.

 

The problem is players are thrusted on each other; told to interact with this blob; yet there's not even a social code of conduct that's enforced to make this community play together in any orderly fashion. Methods used, like the EQII method, if seen today would qualify for cyberbullying, because one blob is trying to enforce the other blob with the same behaviors. This is why in RL they self-segregate by moral/ethical values. And to have a big community the community has to have tools that allow meeting and greeting at the town square, but also having the ability to not have to associate with those that aren't socially who you want to be with. Do 15 year-olds want to socialize with grannies talking about their grandkids? No, they want to hang out with their peers. The grannies with their peers. YET, in one game.

 

Ideally, when signing up for a game we can make circles of influence by something as simple as a survey. Starting with age groups and finer filtering according to moral/ethical values. A simple 3 question survey is enough -- Age? Do you cuss; like to talk about politics; Religions; Drugs? Do you play casually or hardcore? And that is who we are matched with in a zone. No rocket science here, some basic social "order" questions that would make playing MMOs bearable. Can always change that zone if your values change, but, it'll give relief from this blob from Mars.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

8/26/13 3:59:02 PM#27
Good post. Wherever there are monsters, there is also a need for heroes. Maybe a good portion of the population will decide to fight the Player Monsters as well as the NPC ones.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  wargfoot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/26/11
Posts: 52

8/26/13 4:00:39 PM#28
Originally posted by UNATCOII
Ideally, when signing up for a game we can make circles of influence by something as simple as a survey. Starting with age groups and finer filtering according to moral/ethical values. A simple 3 question survey is enough -- Age? Do you cuss; like to talk about politics; Religions; Drugs? Do you play casually or hardcore? And that is who we are matched with in a zone. No rocket science here, some basic social "order" questions that would make playing MMOs bearable. Can always change that zone if your values change, but, it'll give relief from this blob from Mars.

You're talking about playing with like minded people.

I see that as the function of a guild/tribe/kinship.

 

I'm talking about excluding people who make it a goal to ruin the fun for other people and do so 24/7 and manage  to do so by just barely staying within the confines of the Code of Conduct.

 

The problem with your idea is griefers would intentionally answer the questions wrong in order to get with groups they could annoy.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

8/26/13 4:02:40 PM#29
Originally posted by Venger
Unfortunately many gamers especially the vocal ones here can't see past their own wants to see logic.

Do you have something to say to anyone?

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/26/13 4:20:14 PM#30
Originally posted by wargfoot
Originally posted by UNATCOII
Ideally, when signing up for a game we can make circles of influence by something as simple as a survey. Starting with age groups and finer filtering according to moral/ethical values. A simple 3 question survey is enough -- Age? Do you cuss; like to talk about politics; Religions; Drugs? Do you play casually or hardcore? And that is who we are matched with in a zone. No rocket science here, some basic social "order" questions that would make playing MMOs bearable. Can always change that zone if your values change, but, it'll give relief from this blob from Mars.

You're talking about playing with like minded people.

I see that as the function of a guild/tribe/kinship.

 

I'm talking about excluding people who make it a goal to ruin the fun for other people and do so 24/7 and manage  to do so by just barely staying within the confines of the Code of Conduct.

 

The problem with your idea is griefers would intentionally answer the questions wrong in order to get with groups they could annoy.

 

You can't, because that's the culture of the internet itself. Which is like RL.

 

RL self-segregates because a cop can't be at your beck and call 24/7 to police it all. You live and socialize with those who share similar social/moral/ethic values. It's your circle of influence you feel comfortable being in, and by extension consider acceptable to be around, and thus have fun with.

 

My best time in WoW socially wasn't in a raid that downed a boss, it was a December random dungeon run that took 3hrs. Why did it take 3hrs? Because all of us were ladies cooking for Christmas, and inbetween baking, were passing time online. Now a 15 year-old would've been bored to tears talking about families and Christmas menus, let alone a power leveler would've been a raging because the run took forever, but we had fun. That's fun to me socially in groups, talking about families and that such, not reliving Parris Island with a bunch of raging kids who need to prove some ePeen. Different culture and values.

 

That's achieved by having better tools to tailor who you socialize with. Those Mars like kids I'm sure get along fine with their own peers. Others with their own, too.

  fardreamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/27/03
Posts: 224

"Trust your feelings!"

8/26/13 4:27:33 PM#31
get your "truths"  about humans checked. not all people are greedy selfish, whatever.,
  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7313

8/26/13 4:43:36 PM#32


Originally posted by Eyesgood

But there is merit in the content of my wall of text

Sorry but no, there is no merit behind your wall of text.

It is just another thread of generalizations based on personal bias ignoring any facts and contradictions with reality...

  wargfoot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/26/11
Posts: 52

8/26/13 4:51:58 PM#33
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Eyesgood

But there is merit in the content of my wall of text

 

Sorry but no, there is no merit behind your wall of text.

It is just another thread of generalizations based on personal bias ignoring any facts and contradictions with reality...

Could you give examples of your claim?

  ShortyBible

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/10
Posts: 313

8/26/13 5:10:35 PM#34

@Op , thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and I enjoyed your article. I am one of those peaceful players you mentioned, but I love, enjoy , prefer FFA/PVP/Full Loot games. I actually suck at PVP but I do enjoy the danger.

You mentioned permadeath in the article  and I wondered if  murders, outlaws etc: ran the risk of permadeath how that would work.

In my opinion if I saw a murder , I would personally respect and fear him.

The business model would also need to be P2P.

Just a thought.

http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

8/26/13 5:44:11 PM#35


Originally posted by Axehilt
...Also, I don't think PVP is required for a good sandbox.

Totally agree and wish folks would stop suggesting otherwise.



Originally posted by EthanC

Originally posted by TheChuckinator19908 TOTAL FREEDOM!!
Thank you!

I was actually reading this post and wanted desperately to plug Divergence but um... Being one of it's developers I figured the post would probably be considered advertisement and flamed.

But since it's already been done... :P Yes, "Maximum Player Freedom" is the logo for our game. If you don't believe it, download, log in, and check it out ;)



Very well done, looks awesome.


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Thats weird cause I think Everquest was the most popular game, twice the subs of UO and SWG and it was most definately not a sandbox.


I think the point is that EQ was not a themepark; and if you had to label EQ as either a sandbox or themepark, it more closely resembles the former.

Themepark:
1. From the moment you log in, NPCs are telling you what to do ! (quest hubs)
2. Most of your xp and loot comes from quest rewards
3. Fairly easy game, not much stress.


EQ:
1. You are placed into the world and have to figure it out, often learning from other players.
2. Quests are hard and long and result in almost no xp and very little loot except in the case of major/epic like quests.
3. Hard game: high level aggro mobs roaming noob zones, faction issues, death penalties, corpse runs, down time.



Originally posted by botrytis

I fixed it for you and increased the font size - makes it easier to read for us old guys.


Thanks, now I will read it, lol. Initially I read only the first paragraph then skimmed/skipped the rest. /edit, looks like it's saying PvP kills sandbox but see my first quote, above.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

8/26/13 5:48:21 PM#36
Originally posted by lizardbones

I feel like somebody is going to argue with your statements a lot. Mostly the statements on PvP. The arguments will center around how limiting the freedom of PvP takes away from the sandbox, or how limiting the freedom of PvP will reduce the realism of the sandbox.

I'm not, because I more or less agree with a lot of what you're saying, I think. I mostly just skimmed your wall of text. But I'm pretty sure the PvP response is incoming.

To be honest this post seemed like the longest possible form of "PvP needs to be optional" I've ever seen.

 

It has a lot of paragraphs and a lot of words, but it appears to simply be a rehash of the never ending argument about whether PvP should be optional or always on and this poster is of the mindset that it needs to be optional (one which I've posted about myself), but that post is a TL:DR overkill.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4874

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/26/13 5:57:44 PM#37
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Axehilt
...Also, I don't think PVP is required for a good sandbox.

 

Totally agree and wish folks would stop suggesting otherwise.

 

 



Originally posted by EthanC

Originally posted by TheChuckinator19908 TOTAL FREEDOM!!
Thank you!

 

I was actually reading this post and wanted desperately to plug Divergence but um... Being one of it's developers I figured the post would probably be considered advertisement and flamed.

But since it's already been done... :P Yes, "Maximum Player Freedom" is the logo for our game. If you don't believe it, download, log in, and check it out ;)


 


Very well done, looks awesome.

 

 

 


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Thats weird cause I think Everquest was the most popular game, twice the subs of UO and SWG and it was most definately not a sandbox.

 


I think the point is that EQ was not a themepark; and if you had to label EQ as either a sandbox or themepark, it more closely resembles the former.

Themepark:
1. From the moment you log in, NPCs are telling you what to do ! (quest hubs)
2. Most of your xp and loot comes from quest rewards
3. Fairly easy game, not much stress.


EQ:
1. You are placed into the world and have to figure it out, often learning from other players.
2. Quests are hard and long and result in almost no xp and very little loot except in the case of major/epic like quests.
3. Hard game: high level aggro mobs roaming noob zones, faction issues, death penalties, corpse runs, down time.

 

 



Originally posted by botrytis

I fixed it for you and increased the font size - makes it easier to read for us old guys.

 


Thanks, now I will read it, lol. Initially I read only the first paragraph then skimmed/skipped the rest. /edit, looks like it's saying PvP kills sandbox but see my first quote, above.

Except that EQ had linear clonal characters (all warriors were the same, all monks the same...), no way to differentiate classes, heavy loot driven game, no impact on the actual gameworld.  The only thing remotely sandboxy was no restrictions on where you could go.  To me EQ was a themepark through and through.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Ehliya

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/06
Posts: 190

8/26/13 6:03:49 PM#38
Originally posted by fardreamer
get your "truths"  about humans checked. not all people are greedy selfish, whatever.,

IRL, yes.  In fact, IRL there are tons of incentives for people to act altruistically, honorably, obey the law, etc.  That is because RL has consequences and there is a finality to choices.  Some of the most effective contributors to peace and human progress have used non-violent means.

Not so in your usual PVP-enabled MMO world.

In a PVP MMO, consequences are usually (and necessarily, of course) trivial.  Anonymity removes a veneer of social control and incentive to behave in ways that invite reciprocal positive behavior.  Online brings out the worst in human nature.  If you give people power in MMO, a large percentage (much much larger than RL) will abuse it to harm others.

Gandhi, Mandela, Einstein - none of these folks would have survived to adult hood in your typical MMO with PVP.  They would have been bumped off by DetHz0r666 for no reason other than because he could.

That is why true unrestricted PVP games are so rare.  They become wastelands where the worst elements of the online world congregate to drive off everyone else.

 

  Eunuchmaker

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/07
Posts: 203

. . .

8/26/13 6:04:55 PM#39
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by lizardbones

I feel like somebody is going to argue with your statements a lot. Mostly the statements on PvP. The arguments will center around how limiting the freedom of PvP takes away from the sandbox, or how limiting the freedom of PvP will reduce the realism of the sandbox.

I'm not, because I more or less agree with a lot of what you're saying, I think. I mostly just skimmed your wall of text. But I'm pretty sure the PvP response is incoming.

To be honest this post seemed like the longest possible form of "PvP needs to be optional" I've ever seen.

 

It has a lot of paragraphs and a lot of words, but it appears to simply be a rehash of the never ending argument about whether PvP should be optional or always on and this poster is of the mindset that it needs to be optional (one which I've posted about myself), but that post is a TL:DR overkill.

Yah.  Jus let the people that wanna kill each other flag themselves for PVP, the rest can be on their way.  Of course, then the people that are flagged are ready and waiting for a fight, so killing them isn't as much fun.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/26/13 6:14:00 PM#40


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Except that EQ had linear clonal characters (all warriors were the same, all monks the same...), no way to differentiate classes, heavy loot driven game, no impact on the actual gameworld.  The only thing remotely sandboxy was no restrictions on where you could go.  To me EQ was a themepark through and through.


 


Because it is a themepark game, which WoW (and many MMOs) is modeled.


To have a true sandbox MMORPG, it would have to support play styles that aren't friendly to the idea of MMO. Which is why the devs continue forcing players to play a certain way to ensure the genre is a MMO. It's not fun, but done because a MMORPG without the MMO, is an offline single player game.


There's methods to have both, but for whatever reason devs continue on that EQ model. In the scheme of things, it's actually curtailing the MMO aspect of it, and ruins any attempt at sandboxing a genre.


For the other discussion here about PvP: PvP is included in sandboxes as that's the active content. Don't have to add PvE content which is time consuming and costly to produce. All those F2P games are PvP orientated, yet for some strange reason a PvE game with optional PvP and a themepark game at that, has the most players. Ironic, huh?

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