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General Discussion  » Will grouping be obsolete as in GW2?

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  User Deleted
8/25/13 3:45:41 PM#21
Originally posted by Adalwulff

We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

Anyone else see a potential problem?

 

 

  Yes, it will have the same kind of asocial community that GW2 has:

the same thing happened in WoW as soon as communities got large; people would no longer group outside of their social circles and would shy away from grouping with strangers.

It isn't so much behavior stemming from the games design as it is a natural property, so I think that they have high expectations of their game, since they are preparing for the large crowd instead of a smaller hardcore one.

People don't like to interact with strangers, but they do like to use them as a backup to experience content with known friends.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3808

8/25/13 3:52:16 PM#22
Originally posted by Piechunks
Originally posted by Adalwulff

We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

Anyone else see a potential problem?

 

 

  Yes, it will have the same kind of asocial community that GW2 has:

the same thing happened in WoW as soon as communities got large; people would no longer group outside of their social circles and would shy away from grouping with strangers.

It isn't so much behavior stemming from the games design as it is a natural property, so I think that they have high expectations of their game, since they are preparing for the large crowd instead of a smaller hardcore one.

People don't like to interact with strangers, but they do like to use them as a backup to experience content with known friends.

You know what one of the biggest problems is? It isn't anti social people - it's the simple fact that voice communications is infinitely better than text chat while fighting AND developers that don't integrate voice chat into games.

It's a pain in the ass to have to use a different vent channel or worse, a different program like mumble, etc. when you play with a new group... so you tend to stick with people who use the same VOIP and channel as you do.

It's one thing SOE is doing right with SOEmote built in to EQ2, Planetside 2 and EQN... and it's one thing that Zenimax is doing wrong. SOEmote even morphs your voice to a sound font you select yourself to make it more immersive and get rid of the jarring moment when you first hear that hot elf female sound like a husky southern truck driver dude 

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

 
OP  8/25/13 4:08:20 PM#23
Originally posted by Piechunks
Originally posted by Adalwulff

We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

Anyone else see a potential problem?

 

 

  Yes, it will have the same kind of asocial community that GW2 has:

the same thing happened in WoW as soon as communities got large; people would no longer group outside of their social circles and would shy away from grouping with strangers.

It isn't so much behavior stemming from the games design as it is a natural property, so I think that they have high expectations of their game, since they are preparing for the large crowd instead of a smaller hardcore one.

People don't like to interact with strangers, but they do like to use them as a backup to experience content with known friends.

 

We cannot rule this out. I have seen the decline of PUG friendly groups myself. This is definitely a factor in todays MMOs, and in GW2, and possibly TESO.

I think the Devs today are trying to get groups to form organically, not forced. I still enjoy PUGS, but as Iselin says in the next post, PUGS would be sooooo much better if we had voice chat.

I know a lot of people are against it, but with enough tools to block jerks from messing with you, it would be fine. I play a lot of Planetside 2 and the there has never been a problem in voice. Sometimes you get a jerk who plays loud music, it takes only a second to mute him.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

 
OP  8/25/13 4:19:19 PM#24
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by dontadow

Posts like this should read (I don't understand any other way to play a game other than like WOW). 

 

There are just some goals you can't do in GW2 if you arent grouping and working together.  Both dungeons, above world bosses and now the events require communication (watch the chat dialogue and coordination). I'd argue they're far more social games because it doesn't force you into a single box. 

Not to mention WvW... funny how this same crap gets posted in EQN. "We need tanks, dedicated healers and tab-targetting or we are doomed!... and raids... no raids = fail!"

WOWites sure are going down kicking and screaming aren't they? 

Reminds me of the old Dylan verse: "...something's happening here but you don't know what it is...do you Mr. Jones?"

 

I have failed you guys... my question wasn't clear enough, but Iselin was the closest. I should also say I have no opinion, I like the trinity but I also like the freedom of GW2s system, and TESO is very close to that.

The idea of the tank and healer, ect.. is exactly what I'm talking about, but not in the same context.

In GW2 and TESO, they have skills that "play" off each other, to enhance them. Trouble is I don't see it much in GW2, because players are taking on their own mobs. This is the point I'm trying to get at.

I didn't do the high level dungeons so I cant speak for them, but every group I was in we each took on our own mob. Since TESO is using a similar method, it seems we will get the same results. So why even have all those skills that play off each others skills if we are all busy with our own mobs?

It just seems weird.

Like the DAOC example I gave you, we could never solo our own mobs. Because as Iselin said, we needed a tank, a healer and a dps...ect.

So maybe the other posters are right, grouping has become obsolete? Is there a way to balance it?

Good post. You're serious about this so I'll reply in kind...

We're in a transition in MMO PVE play at the moment. Nowhere is it more evident than in EQN design where they are prioritizing mob AI as a design goal. The simplest way to describe it is that developers are trying to make PVE more like PVP... they want mobs to behave more realistically and more closely behave as human players would.

No more dumb mob behavior where they see a player with heavy armor and shield that says "hey mob, yo mama!" and all 20 of them attack that player exclusively even running by and ignoring the other players in the party who are closer and hurting them more.

That is just stupid. But it's the stupid we have all gotten used to and it takes a developer with some cojones to try to break away from that.

GW2 was one of the first to attempt this but they just didn't spend quite enough time on mob AI - in particular, they didn't "tune" the AI in the all-important "fun factor." Mobs in the open world in GW2 are brainless wastes of space and the ones in dungeons are smart and devious and often out-smart the unprepared players... I have never seen a more drastic difference in mob behavior, AI and difficulty level between the open world and instances than in GW2.

TESO is also trying to make this change. They have even used the "PVE plays like PVP" simplified example to describe what they're trying to do... hopefully, it'll be a step-up from GW2 in both, consistency and fun.

EQN... if you've got a spare hour or two and want to understand what they're trying to do there, these 2 hour-long lectures by the guy who is responsible for EQN mob AI, Dave Mark, will give you a pretty good idea... they are both about "utility based AI" where mob behavior is dictated by what is in their best interest after evaluating all kinds of variables.

 http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012410/Improving-AI-Decision-Modeling-Through and  http://gdcvault.com/play/1015683/Embracing-the-Dark-Art-of

So what does this all mean? Anyone who has ever PvPd seriously has done so in groups. Groups exist and are just as important, if not more so, in PVP than in PvE...but they're different. Human players are not stupid enough to make a beeline for the tank and beat on just him until the healer heals too much and then they go after him.

This is what will be happening in PVE also in the new games that are going that way. No more bored playing with one eye while you watch a movie with the other one. You're going to have to use interrupts, CC, kite and, most of all, watch what the mobs are doing and react intelligently.

So what does this look like in a video to a casual observer? It looks like a mess because you have no handy-dandy tank-and-spank frame of reference. It doesn't feel that way when you're in the group and playing it but someone that knows nothing else other than WOW and its many clones, will think that its just messy.

You can look at it that way if you want, but all it really is, is the same "messy" PvP play style imported into PvE due to much smarter mob AI.

So yeah, things are changing...for the better.

 

 

As a die hard PvPer, I'm actually not that worried, because we will always run in groups and use the skills that work off each other to our full advantage. Its why I will be playing TESO. But, I'm sure I will be doing some PvE, so this does kind of concern me.

That's an interesting perception. I never thought of trying to make PvE more like PvP, but when I think about it it does kind of make sense.

In a PvP battle, we do "solo our own mobs" so to speak. But I think the PvPers will get a whole lot more use of those skills that play off other skills. Except for the higher level dungeons.

Especailly the CC. I am leaning towards the Sorc/Dark Magic, specifically for the CC. This is where TESO seems to favor the trinity, at least a little bit.

If you look at the base classes, there is one that heals, and one that CCs, and even a sort of tank. But as you expand from the base classes, its all up in the air.

So doesn't it seem like a waste to have all those CC spells or the skills that work off each other, if we are fighting more PvP style in a PvE environment?

Seems like TESO is riding the very edge of the group/solo mechanic. I cant wait to see it work.

  ropenice

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

8/25/13 4:37:11 PM#25
Originally

 

I don't see any issues. 

Players create the issues, not the game. If players can't work together that is their own fault. Simply group with people who have an idea of what they are doing.

Wrong. Mechanics have a lot to do with grouping. In games that force grouping or give huge increases in xp or loot to groups more people group than games with mechanics where there is no penalty to solo or mobs are too easy-many won't group. If most people are not grouping then it is difficult to get in a group, let alone a good group, as majority does solo content. CO was a good example, combat was fun but could solo all but 6 or so missions and those were so hard group would wipe repeatedly. And without any death penalty, you just ran from respawn at entrance and kept zerging with no plan until done. Mechanics/game design very much influence/direct how people play and effects everyone.
  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

 
OP  8/25/13 4:51:03 PM#26

Another example is this:

  • There are 3 major skills trees: Class, Weapon and Armor
  • From the 3 main skill trees are 6 – 7 sub-skill trees that allow you to specialize in weapon types (one-handed, staves, dual wielding, etc.), spells and abilities.

 

So, if those sub-skills include healing or defensive bonuses(tanking) then the lines between the base classes will become blurred and we have GW2.

If they do not, then we have something close to the trinity, because of the base classes.

I think its obvious we wouldn't get a healing spell as part of our weapon skill tree, but who knows...lol

I really want to see those skill trees!

  Brabbit1987

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 683

8/26/13 7:15:33 AM#27
Originally posted by ropenice
Originally

 

I don't see any issues. 

Players create the issues, not the game. If players can't work together that is their own fault. Simply group with people who have an idea of what they are doing.

Wrong. Mechanics have a lot to do with grouping. In games that force grouping or give huge increases in xp or loot to groups more people group than games with mechanics where there is no penalty to solo or mobs are too easy-many won't group. If most people are not grouping then it is difficult to get in a group, let alone a good group, as majority does solo content. CO was a good example, combat was fun but could solo all but 6 or so missions and those were so hard group would wipe repeatedly. And without any death penalty, you just ran from respawn at entrance and kept zerging with no plan until done. Mechanics/game design very much influence/direct how people play and effects everyone.

Lol I am not wrong XD. Mechanics help, but it isn't what MAKES peoples group. Sorry to tell you this, but this portion really has very little to do with gaming at all.

Grouping and working together is part of human nature. 

Now obviously the game needs to have the mechanics for it to even work. However, if it has the mechanics I don't see how it would be anything BUT the players fault.

Why do people work together in real life? The reward isn't any greater. The experience isn't any greater, actually it's less. There are certain benefits when it comes to working together in real life.

1. It's more enjoyable

2. Things get done faster

3. You are able to do things that would be other wise impossible without such a large group

4. Structure. Humans love structure and order. Being in a group increases motivation and leadership.

So why does this all of a sudden break down in video games? Why do these things all of a sudden need extra reward? It's because the players are spoiled. Make the dungeons harder! That forces people to have to work together. 

Make some dungeons impossible to solo.

One can then argue, that no one will do it. The fix for that is to give a nice reward to the players at the end of the dungeon. Change it up every month. So players will keep coming back to get the new reward.

Again if there is still issues, it's the players fault -.-. Players expect way to much sometimes. Rewards for ever little thing they do. Hand holding and kiddie stuff. XD

Edit: Course the issue is, you misunderstand what I meant by that. That statement I made assumed the game had proper mechanics for grouping.

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2532

8/26/13 7:29:06 AM#28
Originally posted by Piechunks
Originally posted by Adalwulff

We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

Anyone else see a potential problem?

 

 

  Yes, it will have the same kind of asocial community that GW2 has:

the same thing happened in WoW as soon as communities got large; people would no longer group outside of their social circles and would shy away from grouping with strangers.

It isn't so much behavior stemming from the games design as it is a natural property, so I think that they have high expectations of their game, since they are preparing for the large crowd instead of a smaller hardcore one.

People don't like to interact with strangers, but they do like to use them as a backup to experience content with known friends.

lol - the GW2 community is not anti-social. Why do you think it is? I have no problems with the social aspect of the game. In fact, I have played games where you HAVE to group and people really didn't talk either. Forcing people to group DOES NOT MAKE THEM SOCIAL. Think of being in grade school where you had to learn to dance (if they did that in your school). Did you talk to the girl you were paired with? If you didn't, based on your attitude, MAN YOU ARE ANTI-SOCIAL.

 

Can I ask you something, didn't your mother tell you not to talk to strangers?

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2532

8/26/13 7:37:55 AM#29
Originally posted by ropenice
Originally

 

I don't see any issues. 

Players create the issues, not the game. If players can't work together that is their own fault. Simply group with people who have an idea of what they are doing.

Wrong. Mechanics have a lot to do with grouping. In games that force grouping or give huge increases in xp or loot to groups more people group than games with mechanics where there is no penalty to solo or mobs are too easy-many won't group. If most people are not grouping then it is difficult to get in a group, let alone a good group, as majority does solo content. CO was a good example, combat was fun but could solo all but 6 or so missions and those were so hard group would wipe repeatedly. And without any death penalty, you just ran from respawn at entrance and kept zerging with no plan until done. Mechanics/game design very much influence/direct how people play and effects everyone.

As others have said, A GAME (mechanics or otherwise) cannot make you social. No one can do that other than yourself. You can force grouping all you want, it doesn't mean people will be social.

 

 

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Esidar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/11
Posts: 8

8/26/13 10:51:33 AM#30
Originally posted by botrytis

As others have said, A GAME (mechanics or otherwise) cannot make you social.

Actually they can. Some people enjoy grouping only for social interactions, while others like to see a purpose in this. I don't consider myself a social person (first case), but in DAoC my major motive to interact with others was to find excellent guild/alliance to do serious PvP. In WoW, again, I wanted to be in a good guild to do serious PvE instancing. Later in WoW that has changed. With Dungeon/Raid Finder the need for a guild have been diminished and my needs for PvE instancing are simply fullfiled/satisfied with casual raiding. And no, I don't think that is a good thing.

Games shape your behavior whether you like it or not. With new games, people are "forced" into casual playing: no trinity! jump into instance whenever you want! no grouping needed! you can kill it with a sneeze!

Today, someone posted YT movie about WoW and "why people stoped caring". Confirms my thoughts on that matter. Worth to see.

Also, you may lookup for "Designing games with Intrinsic and Extrinsic rewards". Most new games are overloaded with Extrinsic rewards, which provide fun for short period of time but don't suffice for longer commitment.

So, forcing grouping or not, it is a part of serious change in game mechanics.

 

  jesusjuice69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 293

8/27/13 11:06:45 AM#31
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Adalwulff

We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

Anyone else see a potential problem?

 

I don't see any issues. 

Players create the issues, not the game. If players can't work together that is their own fault. Simply group with people who have an idea of what they are doing.

In my opinion, this can work out well in this area as it forces people to get to know each other if they want a group that works together well. The people who don't bother interacting with players, tend to be the people who do their own thing in the group.

More choice is never a bad thing. If a person needs to be limited by a class just to party well, they will be better off playing a different game. This game requires a little more thinking and interaction with people if you want a good group. It's simple as that.

Course I am used to games like this since I played mabinogi for like 5+ years. You have to really interact with players and pay attention of your surroundings. If 1 person messes up, it can screw everyone in the group and you end up with a party wipe. 

In other words it requires MORE working together and communication. I never played GW2, but i assume if it isn't working well, it's because players simply fail at communicating and working together properly. It isn't hard to come up with a plan before the dungeon. Who is in charge of what and such. 

Example:

Bob, you have the most health and defense, you take the defensive position and draw the agro.

Bill, you have the best healing among us, you can join in on the fight, just make sure no one falls. Keep an eye on health!

Jane, attack! attack! attack! Don't give them any chance to breath. 

I will take out all the long range enemies and help Jane destroy the enemies that are left after.

 

It really isn't all that hard in my opinion. lol me and my long winded responses -.-

 

Edit: I should mention that, I suppose an issue could happen if the mobs are to easy.

If the game is so easy that people don't have to communicate, then they won't.  They will go along and solo their mobs, collect their loot, and that will be the end of it.

I predict this is the future of ESO.  The game seriously seems easy mode.

  Brabbit1987

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 683

8/27/13 11:57:52 AM#32
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Adalwulff

We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

Anyone else see a potential problem?

 

I don't see any issues. 

Players create the issues, not the game. If players can't work together that is their own fault. Simply group with people who have an idea of what they are doing.

In my opinion, this can work out well in this area as it forces people to get to know each other if they want a group that works together well. The people who don't bother interacting with players, tend to be the people who do their own thing in the group.

More choice is never a bad thing. If a person needs to be limited by a class just to party well, they will be better off playing a different game. This game requires a little more thinking and interaction with people if you want a good group. It's simple as that.

Course I am used to games like this since I played mabinogi for like 5+ years. You have to really interact with players and pay attention of your surroundings. If 1 person messes up, it can screw everyone in the group and you end up with a party wipe. 

In other words it requires MORE working together and communication. I never played GW2, but i assume if it isn't working well, it's because players simply fail at communicating and working together properly. It isn't hard to come up with a plan before the dungeon. Who is in charge of what and such. 

Example:

Bob, you have the most health and defense, you take the defensive position and draw the agro.

Bill, you have the best healing among us, you can join in on the fight, just make sure no one falls. Keep an eye on health!

Jane, attack! attack! attack! Don't give them any chance to breath. 

I will take out all the long range enemies and help Jane destroy the enemies that are left after.

 

It really isn't all that hard in my opinion. lol me and my long winded responses -.-

 

Edit: I should mention that, I suppose an issue could happen if the mobs are to easy.

If the game is so easy that people don't have to communicate, then they won't.  They will go along and solo their mobs, collect their loot, and that will be the end of it.

I predict this is the future of ESO.  The game seriously seems easy mode.

Right and I agree. If it's too easy, it could pose a real problem.

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