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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » ESO will have a box price, subscription AND a cash shop.

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161 posts found
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

8/23/13 2:23:43 PM#81
Originally posted by JRRNeiklot
Originally posted by Dalanon

What is there to defend?  Holy crap they want you to pay for the product they've spent hundreds of millions of dollars making, (gasp).  Wait there is more, they want a subscription to pay for the development costs of new content and to keep the servers running with good bandwidth!  When did every game on the planet have to use free to play just so a bunch of freeloaders still living with their parents could afford to play it?  If you buy one DVD a month, buy a take out dinner for 2, or smoke like 3 packs of cigs in a month, you already spend that much money, and got maybe a couple hours of value compared to the unlimited time you can enjoy playing a good mmo.

In most cases free to play isn't actually free, and even if it is, there isn't the amount of content a subscription based game can push out because they can actually pay developers to make content for it.  Guess what, FF14, Wildstar, and ESO all saying they are subscription recently because they know its the best way to make a quality product that actually has a chance of succeeding long term. 

Why do you assume he's complaining about the subscription?  I for one don't mind buying the game, nor paying a subscription. 
The cash shop is what pisses me off.  I refuse to play pay to win games.

They did say the cash shop was going to be fun stuff. My guess is skins, cosmetic pets and crap like that. IMO this is still crap as paying customers used to get rewarded for being loyal with what we get in cosmetic cash shops now. Or earn the fun stuff for playing events. IMO this is a low move and can only be fixed if gamers start voting with their money. 

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

8/23/13 2:27:45 PM#82
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs

Get rid of Buy the Box.

Downloadable 7 day Free Trial then $15mo Sub to continue play. Keep the CS for fluff.

But Fk that $65 for a 30 day Trial BS

 

Box Price should only be for games without some Monthly Sub attached to it to continue playing after some time limit.

Like Skyrim

You get rid of the box, and you lose 3/4 of the retail outlet sales.

Not smart.

 

Box +Sub is standard P2P.

 

Well IMO they need to do something different.

I (and many others I believe) are tired of paying $60+ for 30 days of gameplay just to TRY a MMO.

Buy it to try it, but like it or not its yours. Im looking at 8 MMOs right now that I had to Buy to Try that are bricks because the game sucks. Worst is, 3 of them went F2P after I bought them.

Yeah I know, my fault for buying them with out waiting for them to get a FT or F2P

MMOs should at least Release with a 7 day FREE Trial BEFORE you buy it. Like the game= Pay Box price for the Full Game and 30 more days, then Sub for continued access after that.

If you dont like it all you really lost was DL/Install and Trial time.

Thats where fair comes in. I am not here saying FF14 is a better game then ESO but SE has done very well by FF14 fans. No cash shop, 30 bucks for the game and a sub. All fun items will be given out for free other then the CE items. GW2 is quality as well and has a place in the MMO market as much as some do not like it. B2P and free content after free content with a fair cash shop. Its time game companies started acting fair. Gamers need to vote with their money or they wont listen. 

  CthulhuPuffs

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 379

Will consume your soul, yet stay crunchy in milk

8/23/13 2:27:57 PM#83
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by JRRNeiklot
Originally posted by Dalanon

What is there to defend?  Holy crap they want you to pay for the product they've spent hundreds of millions of dollars making, (gasp).  Wait there is more, they want a subscription to pay for the development costs of new content and to keep the servers running with good bandwidth!  When did every game on the planet have to use free to play just so a bunch of freeloaders still living with their parents could afford to play it?  If you buy one DVD a month, buy a take out dinner for 2, or smoke like 3 packs of cigs in a month, you already spend that much money, and got maybe a couple hours of value compared to the unlimited time you can enjoy playing a good mmo.

In most cases free to play isn't actually free, and even if it is, there isn't the amount of content a subscription based game can push out because they can actually pay developers to make content for it.  Guess what, FF14, Wildstar, and ESO all saying they are subscription recently because they know its the best way to make a quality product that actually has a chance of succeeding long term. 

Why do you assume he's complaining about the subscription?  I for one don't mind buying the game, nor paying a subscription. 
The cash shop is what pisses me off.  I refuse to play pay to win games.

They did say the cash shop was going to be fun stuff. My guess is skins, cosmetic pets and crap like that. IMO this is still crap as paying customers used to get rewarded for being loyal with what we get in cosmetic cash shops now. Or earn the fun stuff for playing events. IMO this is a low move and can only be fixed if gamers start voting with their money. 

"Fun Stuff" will most likely be a new Color Pallet (muted) so that you dont have to always wear the drab Gray or Brown that everything come in. Or 3 new Hair Styles- Washed, Brushed and Deloused.

Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

Games Played: Too Many

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15535

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

8/23/13 2:28:42 PM#84
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Stizzled
Originally posted by Distopia

Yeah I changed my post, as I have no idea what fun items mean. The important part is that they said, all content comes with a sub.

At this point no one knows what they mean by fun items. It mostly likely means quirky little things that no one will really care about or want to buy. But, they've spent the time to develop this shop, and they surely plan on using it, if no one buys the fun items, how long before they begin adding the same kinds of items that F2P games sell?

Here is the irk IMO. Fun items used to be handed out for free to the paying customers. Perks for being loyal. Now they add them to a P2P model and we all go its ok because they are not game breaking. FF14 has really cemented me that P2P models need to give the customer something of value if you go that rout. Every month you are subbed to FF14 you get fun stuff and it gets better each month you are subbed. Also no cash shop =-) So any fun stuff they come up with will be for free =-) handed out in events like the one they will have a week after launch. Free beach ware etc. Customers need to stand up and say no and vote with their money. 

If you are gona have a cash shop, no raids and market your game as a console game. Them make it B2P. If you are going P2P then make that have the value of that model. Sad but gamers are the ones mostly to blame for this, we buy sub par games and then give them extra cash in the cash shop to reward them for it lol. 

The problem here is we have a very rough translation of Matt's words to go on this "item shop" "fun items" thing, when they've said already (in plain English) that their game really doesn't fit micro transactions. People are freaking out over three words "Fun items" *services*. Which the later is to be expected as an additional fee, services always have been.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

8/23/13 2:31:41 PM#85
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Stizzled
Originally posted by Distopia

Yeah I changed my post, as I have no idea what fun items mean. The important part is that they said, all content comes with a sub.

At this point no one knows what they mean by fun items. It mostly likely means quirky little things that no one will really care about or want to buy. But, they've spent the time to develop this shop, and they surely plan on using it, if no one buys the fun items, how long before they begin adding the same kinds of items that F2P games sell?

Here is the irk IMO. Fun items used to be handed out for free to the paying customers. Perks for being loyal. Now they add them to a P2P model and we all go its ok because they are not game breaking. FF14 has really cemented me that P2P models need to give the customer something of value if you go that rout. Every month you are subbed to FF14 you get fun stuff and it gets better each month you are subbed. Also no cash shop =-) So any fun stuff they come up with will be for free =-) handed out in events like the one they will have a week after launch. Free beach ware etc. Customers need to stand up and say no and vote with their money. 

If you are gona have a cash shop, no raids and market your game as a console game. Them make it B2P. If you are going P2P then make that have the value of that model. Sad but gamers are the ones mostly to blame for this, we buy sub par games and then give them extra cash in the cash shop to reward them for it lol. 

Rofl... nice that you found a home somewhere Nan. But please, stop the bullshit:

Square Enix cash shop link: You can buy 3 seaparate FF XIV music CDs, a fluffy Chocobo for your desktop: 

http://store.na.square-enix.com/store/sqenixus/DisplayHomePage

I know, I know, nothing you can actually use in game there... they reserved those "in game item" sales for the Collector Edition bundle... so far. But my guess is that if you didn't get the Helm of Light, Couerl Mount, Behemoth Barding and Baby Behemoth Minion, you'll be able to get them eventually...for an "upgrade" price.

Love is blind and all that, but c'mon man, get real.

 

EDIT: oops, didn't look hard enough. You can already get the digital upgrade to the Collector's edition for $19.99: 

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/product/#ceSpecialAnchor

You know you are stretching and I do like you so I will chuck you a bone. You can buy 1 set of digital items from the collectors edition =-) Go read up on SE stand on cash shops and also read up on the free digital items they are giving away, monthly and in events. Pick a model and do it justice. You want Box price + P2P then drop this cash shop crap for fun stuff and reward your customers for it. I know I am asking a lot as Cash shops are popping up everywhere. Does not mean as a customer I cant call them out on this crap. If you want a cash shop then go B2P like GW2. Time people voted with their money. Its not bullshit as you say... people should be sick of being walked on. I play GW2 because they are fair with their payment model. I will play FF14 because they are again being true and fair to their customers with the payment model. Not saying ESO does not have a place in the market, Im just calling them out on this crap plan. See ya when this game goes F2P and I pay less then you did just to walk through the door first. 60 bucks + 12 x 15 = 240 or I can wait =-)

I'm not stretching anything. You were the one that said that FFXIV doesn't have a cash shop. They do. Admittedly one with limited merchandise, but it's there.

Also, will server transfers and name changes be free in FXIV?

WOW has had a cash shop for years and they also charge for name changes, faction changes and server changes. As a matter of fact I can't think of any MMO--regardless of whether it has a sub or not, that doesn't have a shop somewhere to sell you crap, even if it's just T-shirts.

Rift, a F2P game with cash shop, also gives daily, weekly and monthly gifts--among some of the perks--to anyone who chooses to sub despite not needing to. It's not exactly a new thing they're doing.

Do we even know yet what exactly ESO will be selling in its cash shop? For all we know it will be just as limited as what Square Enix sells.

And finally, I'm not committed to buying ESO - I might if the product they show us just before release in open beta is worth it. That's exactly what I did with FFXIV last weekend: I registered for an account, got the DL link off reddit and played it all weekend.

In the end, I decided it wasn't for me because of the ridiculous text in all the balloon quest spam, the way-too-cute obligatory child race and lack of any real innovation. I felt that I had seen and done it all before in every single Eastern MMO I've tried and rejected. Glad it suits you though :)

When ESO is ready for prime time, I will do the same and play it or not based on my own, highly personal,criteria.

Cya there or not.

  Arskaaa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 675

Your chararacter gains experience and levels up, defining a role playing game.

8/23/13 2:57:41 PM#86

So we buy game and pay sub AND IF WE WANT FUN ITEMS WE NEED PAY MORE!

i start get feel that they know ESO will fail and crap all money they can in few month.

Sub games should never ever have any cash shop.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

8/23/13 2:59:33 PM#87
Originally posted by Arskaaa

So we buy game and pay sub AND IF WE WANT FUN ITEMS WE NEED PAY MORE!

i start get feel that they know ESO will fail and crap all money they can in few month.

Sub games should never ever have any cash shop.

Point me to one that doesn't.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5674

8/23/13 3:07:16 PM#88
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Stizzled
Originally posted by Distopia

Yeah I changed my post, as I have no idea what fun items mean. The important part is that they said, all content comes with a sub.

At this point no one knows what they mean by fun items. It mostly likely means quirky little things that no one will really care about or want to buy. But, they've spent the time to develop this shop, and they surely plan on using it, if no one buys the fun items, how long before they begin adding the same kinds of items that F2P games sell?

Here is the irk IMO. Fun items used to be handed out for free to the paying customers. Perks for being loyal. Now they add them to a P2P model and we all go its ok because they are not game breaking. FF14 has really cemented me that P2P models need to give the customer something of value if you go that rout. Every month you are subbed to FF14 you get fun stuff and it gets better each month you are subbed. Also no cash shop =-) So any fun stuff they come up with will be for free =-) handed out in events like the one they will have a week after launch. Free beach ware etc. Customers need to stand up and say no and vote with their money. 

If you are gona have a cash shop, no raids and market your game as a console game. Them make it B2P. If you are going P2P then make that have the value of that model. Sad but gamers are the ones mostly to blame for this, we buy sub par games and then give them extra cash in the cash shop to reward them for it lol. 

The problem here is we have a very rough translation of Matt's words to go on this "item shop" "fun items" thing, when they've said already (in plain English) that their game really doesn't fit micro transactions. People are freaking out over three words "Fun items" *services*. Which the later is to be expected as an additional fee, services always have been.

 

I don't really consider critical questioning freaking out.  I linked two different articles (written within a short time of each other) where he discusses the revenue model.  In one he fails completely to mention the cash shop.  In the next he mentions it.  I highlighted where he specifies the sub will cover the "basic game" and the cash shop will have fun stuff plus account services.

First, if someone is happy paying a lot more for a game that's fine.  There is nothing wrong with that.  However, this isn't in a vacuum.  Firor is claiming that the sub fits the game style better providing a superior experience with high quality service.  In the next interview he says something different, the sub will provide the base game and the cash shop will be filled with fun stuff.  Every publisher says their cash shop is filled with fun stuff.  If you ask Trion, ANet, EnMasse, Blizzard, SoE, Turbine, or any others, they will all tell you their cash shops are filled with fun stuff, yet for some reason those cash shops are unacceptable, yet this one is... wait for it... because it's got a sub.

The problem here is they're charging a minimum fee, misrepresenting why they're charging for it, and then charging extras.  The big claim here is that people don't like F2P (or B2P) because of the cash shop and how they're nickeled and dimed to death. So why is it okay for a sub-game to have a cash shop again?

In sub games all that fun fluff is supposed to be earned through game play.  In sub games why aren't account services part of my sub-service fee?  Trion seemed to be able to manage that just fine.

Then entire point of paying an ongoing recurring fee is that you don't have to deal with micro-fees.  So where is the justification for monthly subscription bills when they're setup the same as a F2P game only with a minimum fee.  What exactly am I paying for?  Server access?  Other games don't require server access fees.  I just don't see why these guys are getting a pass.  Well I do, because just like "sandbox-style" "P2P" has become a hipster term and we seem to love those as gamers.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5674

8/23/13 3:08:55 PM#89
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Arskaaa

So we buy game and pay sub AND IF WE WANT FUN ITEMS WE NEED PAY MORE!

i start get feel that they know ESO will fail and crap all money they can in few month.

Sub games should never ever have any cash shop.

Point me to one that doesn't.

Lineage

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  AZHokie54

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/23/11
Posts: 295

8/23/13 3:12:02 PM#90

Yes, because that model has destroyed WoW.

 

 

  bestever

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/26/11
Posts: 604

8/23/13 3:12:21 PM#91
I see this as a money grab and since they need to include the item shop in the game just tells me they don't have faith sub's will last. I'll pass on this one.
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

8/23/13 3:16:46 PM#92
Originally posted by Torvaldr
 

The big claim here is that people don't like F2P (or B2P) because of the cash shop and how they're nickeled and dimed to death. So why is it okay for a sub-game to have a cash shop again?

 

That might be some people's problem, but it isn't mine.

My problem with In game cash shops (as opposed to the out of game ones every single sub MMO and many single player franchise have) is not the shop per se since it can be ignored, it's the constant in game subtle and not so subtle marketing that I find intrusive and annoying... like all those broadcast message that so and so has unlocked such and such or the chest + key gambling crap that they all seem to have.

That's it for me...nothing else. I don't believe that F2P attracts more trolls or that P2P has a better community because people are more committed - I just don't want to be marketed at while playing the game. Outside the game with links off their website? I could give less of a shit what crap they're trying to sell me there. I never buy it.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

8/23/13 3:18:19 PM#93
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Arskaaa

So we buy game and pay sub AND IF WE WANT FUN ITEMS WE NEED PAY MORE!

i start get feel that they know ESO will fail and crap all money they can in few month.

Sub games should never ever have any cash shop.

Point me to one that doesn't.

Lineage

Oh you mean this is not one? http://www.lineage2.com/en/marketplace/

 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4645

8/23/13 3:28:36 PM#94
Originally posted by boxsnd

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1kvwop/so_elder_scrolls_online_has_a_sub_fee_and_a_cash/

 

Let's see the fans defend this one.

I gather they are talking about in game services. Rift did this initially. IT wasn't a big deal really. Would I like paying a sub and seeing frilly shit i na cash shop? WEll, if I can get it in the game, probably not a big deal. If I can't get it except to buy....well, I'd not like that, but if the game is otherwise great, I'd live with it.

I'll draw the line at currency exchange. I won't touch that.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15535

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

8/23/13 3:36:37 PM#95
Originally posted by Torvaldr

The problem here is we have a very rough translation of Matt's words to go on this "item shop" "fun items" thing, when they've said already (in plain English) that their game really doesn't fit micro transactions. People are freaking out over three words "Fun items" *services*. Which the later is to be expected as an additional fee, services always have been.

 

I don't really consider critical questioning freaking out.  I linked two different articles (written within a short time of each other) where he discusses the revenue model.  In one he fails completely to mention the cash shop.  In the next he mentions it.  I highlighted where he specifies the sub will cover the "basic game" and the cash shop will have fun stuff plus account services.

First, if someone is happy paying a lot more for a game that's fine.  There is nothing wrong with that.  However, this isn't in a vacuum.  Firor is claiming that the sub fits the game style better providing a superior experience with high quality service.  In the next interview he says something different, the sub will provide the base game and the cash shop will be filled with fun stuff.  Every publisher says their cash shop is filled with fun stuff.  If you ask Trion, ANet, EnMasse, Blizzard, SoE, Turbine, or any others, they will all tell you their cash shops are filled with fun stuff, yet for some reason those cash shops are unacceptable, yet this one is... wait for it... because it's got a sub.

The problem here is they're charging a minimum fee, misrepresenting why they're charging for it, and then charging extras.  The big claim here is that people don't like F2P (or B2P) because of the cash shop and how they're nickeled and dimed to death. So why is it okay for a sub-game to have a cash shop again?

In sub games all that fun fluff is supposed to be earned through game play.  In sub games why aren't account services part of my sub-service fee?  Trion seemed to be able to manage that just fine.

Then entire point of paying an ongoing recurring fee is that you don't have to deal with micro-fees.  So where is the justification for monthly subscription bills when they're setup the same as a F2P game only with a minimum fee.  What exactly am I paying for?  Server access?  Other games don't require server access fees.  I just don't see why these guys are getting a pass.  Well I do, because just like "sandbox-style" "P2P" has become a hipster term and we seem to love those as gamers.

I consider jumping to conclusions freaking out, as with all things I'll wait and see.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5674

8/23/13 3:48:30 PM#96
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Arskaaa

So we buy game and pay sub AND IF WE WANT FUN ITEMS WE NEED PAY MORE!

i start get feel that they know ESO will fail and crap all money they can in few month.

Sub games should never ever have any cash shop.

Point me to one that doesn't.

Lineage

Oh you mean this is not one? http://www.lineage2.com/en/marketplace/

Did I say Lineage 2?  Maybe NC has added a CS to Lineage as well, but I can't read Korean and Chrome cant translate a bunch of Flash and images.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

8/23/13 3:49:47 PM#97
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Arskaaa

So we buy game and pay sub AND IF WE WANT FUN ITEMS WE NEED PAY MORE!

i start get feel that they know ESO will fail and crap all money they can in few month.

Sub games should never ever have any cash shop.

Point me to one that doesn't.

Lineage

Oh you mean this is not one? http://www.lineage2.com/en/marketplace/

Did I say Lineage 2?  Maybe NC has added a CS to Lineage as well, but I can't read Korean and Chrome cant translate a bunch of Flash and images.

Whatever dude 

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5674

8/23/13 3:52:21 PM#98
Originally posted by Distopia

I consider jumping to conclusions freaking out, as with all things I'll wait and see.

I think it's better to be proactive and push for answers so people don't have to jump to conclusions.  You're just as guilty because you're concluding there isn't a problem until one makes itself known.  I'm open to possibilities either way, but I'm generally unwilling to give any game dev the benefit of the doubt when it comes to marketing.

Let them speak clearly about it.  Firor has been unwilling to do that and has said two different things in two different articles.  Did neither of the articles I linked cause you any concern or raise any questions?

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5674

8/23/13 3:53:28 PM#99
Originally posted by Iselin

Whatever dude 

lol, you're no fun. 

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4749

8/23/13 3:55:03 PM#100
Originally posted by Shaigh
8 million still supports box price, subscription and a cash shop.

No, 8 million people support Blizzard. No matter how crappy their games are, or how much money they ask of them.

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