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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » Primals video

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33 posts found
  twrule

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 1260

8/22/13 11:12:25 PM#21
Originally posted by Sephiroso

Re-read my first post. I'm not bashing the game. The game is hand-holding whether you want to call it that or not.

I don't want to call it that, because I don't see it that way - whatever it is that you consider 'hand-holding'; and that rhetoric obviously has negative connotations, not to mention in your first post that you call it 'a shame'. In any case, this was hardly relevant to the thread topic.

My point had everything to do with the summons in the game thus i posted here, it was just my misunderstanding in calling carbuncle a primal(in my mind i viewd summons like carbuncle as lesser primals, and boss-greater summons like ifrit as elder primals.)

Your main point in your first post, as I understand it, was that XIV is 'hand-holding' because you supposedly don't have to go out and fight the summons to earn them as a summoner. But, as I've already pointed out, that is a baseless argument, because we don't actually know how you get the summoner summons. Perhaps you do fight the EGI to get them.

Even if you don't fight them, that does not automatically make it 'hand-holding' as if the standard was always that you must fight each lesser pet you could summon. Hell, in a lot of FF games, many of the summons are outright handed to you. Was FF6 'hand-holding'? FF Tactics? And those were greater-level summons than what the XIV summoner can call. If you think of his abilities as more like conjuring an elemental, then there would be even less lore expectation that some fight or major trial needs to happen.

 

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

8/23/13 12:57:53 AM#22
Originally posted by twrule
Originally posted by Sephiroso

Re-read my first post. I'm not bashing the game. The game is hand-holding whether you want to call it that or not.

I don't want to call it that, because I don't see it that way - whatever it is that you consider 'hand-holding'; and that rhetoric obviously has negative connotations, not to mention in your first post that you call it 'a shame'. In any case, this was hardly relevant to the thread topic.

My point had everything to do with the summons in the game thus i posted here, it was just my misunderstanding in calling carbuncle a primal(in my mind i viewd summons like carbuncle as lesser primals, and boss-greater summons like ifrit as elder primals.)

Your main point in your first post, as I understand it, was that XIV is 'hand-holding' because you supposedly don't have to go out and fight the summons to earn them as a summoner. But, as I've already pointed out, that is a baseless argument, because we don't actually know how you get the summoner summons. Perhaps you do fight the EGI to get them.

Even if you don't fight them, that does not automatically make it 'hand-holding' as if the standard was always that you must fight each lesser pet you could summon. Hell, in a lot of FF games, many of the summons are outright handed to you. Was FF6 'hand-holding'? FF Tactics? And those were greater-level summons than what the XIV summoner can call. If you think of his abilities as more like conjuring an elemental, then there would be even less lore expectation that some fight or major trial needs to happen.

 

FF3(first ff game to have summoner class) lower level summons were purchased in shops but higher level summons you had to go out and battle to control and summon them.

 

FF4- the summons were found as enemy/boss drops and you could summon them.(lost access temporarily to summon some due to story reasons but yea)

 

FF5 - Same as FF3, the lesser summons like carbuncle bought in shops, the main others were defeated in battle to summon them.

 

FF6 - You went out to fight the summons(called espers this time) and they dropped magicite which allowed you to equip and summon them, though anyone could equip them and thus summon them.

 

FF7- Same as FF6 except  instead of 'magicite' you got their 'materia'

 

FF8- I didn't play this so idk

 

FF9- Eidolons, they had to be learned from special gems that the summoner would equip and over the course of many battles they'd gain enough ability points with the summon that they would master it and be able to use the summons without having the gemstone equipped.

 

FF10-Who can forget ff10, had to go around the temples and defeat the aeons so yuna could summon them.

 

FF11- Every single avatar(i was corrected on the correct term in this course of this thread) that a summoner could summon bar Carbuncle you had to defeat in battle to summon them.

 

FF12- Again, you had to defeat the espers in battle in order for the party(wasn't a single summoner class) to summon it.

 

FF13-The Eidolons would appear i believe at plot-related times and you had to defeat them to be order to summon them(though again wasn't any 1 summoner class in this game)

 

What does this show? Aside from a couple games where yes you could buy the lesser summons(i.e. carbuncle) from shops, you had to go out and defeat summons to be able to have the right to summon them. This has been the case in every single iteration of Final Fantasy that has had Summons in them bar 1, FF9, because you learned summons from gems that you could find anywhere.

 

How I can say for certain that the trend of leveling up and getting handed our summons through class quest(that we would do regardless if we got a new summon from it or not) will continue? Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle may indeed be the same Carbuncle. But they are two entirely different summons.

 

Topaz is a tank. Emerald is a caster(thus dps). Following this line of thought the next summon arcanist gets is either going to be another gem Carbuncle thats going to be relegated to support/control duty, or it will be a new summon but regardless, it's going to be given to us through class quest.

 

We are not going to have to go out and search for them and defeat them in a hard fought battle that gave you a sense of accomplishment(and made fucking sense from a logical stand point).

 

Us learning the Topaz carbuncle is the equivalent of us going to our guild master and her saying, Oh hey, i found this little stray bugger running around and he needs a new owner, be a doll and take good care of it okay?

 

 


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  twrule

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 1260

8/23/13 1:15:00 AM#23
Originally posted by Sephiroso

What does this show? Aside from a couple games where yes you could buy the lesser summons(i.e. carbuncle) from shops, you had to go out and defeat summons to be able to have the right to summon them. This has been the case in every single iteration of Final Fantasy that has had Summons in them bar 1, FF9, because you learned summons from gems that you could find anywhere.

In FF6 they literally handed you most of the magicite for most of the summons as you progressed through the game - you fought a small handful of them in not particularly difficult fights, as part of that story. In FF Tactics, you purchased all the summons with skill points that you got just by entering many battles with Summoner as your job, and you could save up to buy the biggest baddest summon you wanted first, if you were so inclined.

I don't even know why we are arguing this, because every FF title reserves the right to be different, and has usually exercised that right with most things. There is no unbreakable or unbroken rule or precedent that you must fight the summons in every game in order to be able to use them.

You know what else is different here? The summons are against you. Unlike the other games, they won't agree to give you their power just because you defeated them. If anything, the summoners in XIV are either mimicking or forcibly wresting small portions of the power of the primals, which would be fine in the lore to do from anywhere.

How I can say for certain that the trend of leveling up and getting handed our summons through class quest(that we would do regardless if we got a new summon from it or not) will continue? Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle may indeed be the same Carbuncle. But they are two entirely different summons.

Topaz is a tank. Emerald is a caster(thus dps). Following this line of thought the next summon arcanist gets is either going to be another gem Carbuncle thats going to be relegated to support/control duty, or it will be a new summon but regardless, it's going to be given to us through class quest.

We are not going to have to go out and search for them and defeat them in a hard fought battle that gave you a sense of accomplishment(and made fucking sense from a logical stand point).

 I didn't follow that convoluted line of thought (and it sounds like you haven't even looked at the arcanist/summoner abilities), but let's say that it is through a class quest. How does that show we won't fight them, or that there won't be some kind of trial? You're assuming the class quests do not consist of such a trial. Why wouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to have gotten to that level and completed the class quest?

Us learning the Topaz carbuncle is the equivalent of us going to our guild master and her saying, Oh hey, i found this little stray bugger running around and he needs a new owner, be a doll and take good care of it okay?

 I thought we covered that we were talking about higher summons here, not Carbuncle - at least, your argument hinges on that being the case...who says the other class/job quests are like that? And btw, even the early class quests when they are teaching you how to use a new summon like Topaz carbuncle are not exactly without challenge.

 

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

8/23/13 1:34:09 AM#24
Originally posted by twrule
Originally posted by Sephiroso

What does this show? Aside from a couple games where yes you could buy the lesser summons(i.e. carbuncle) from shops, you had to go out and defeat summons to be able to have the right to summon them. This has been the case in every single iteration of Final Fantasy that has had Summons in them bar 1, FF9, because you learned summons from gems that you could find anywhere.

In FF6 they literally handed you most of the magicite for most of the summons as you progressed through the game - you fought a small handful of them in not particularly difficult fights, as part of that story. In FF Tactics, you purchased all the summons with skill points that you got just by entering many battles with Summoner as your job, and you could save up to buy the biggest baddest summon you wanted first, if you were so inclined.

I don't even know why we are arguing this, because every FF title reserves the right to be different, and has usually exercised that right with most things. There is no unbreakable or unbroken rule or precedent that you must fight the summons in every game in order to be able to use them.

You know what else is different here? The summons are against you. Unlike the other games, they won't agree to give you their power just because you defeated them. If anything, the summoners in XIV are either mimicking or forcibly wresting small portions of the power of the primals, which would be fine in the lore to do from anywhere.

How I can say for certain that the trend of leveling up and getting handed our summons through class quest(that we would do regardless if we got a new summon from it or not) will continue? Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle may indeed be the same Carbuncle. But they are two entirely different summons.

Topaz is a tank. Emerald is a caster(thus dps). Following this line of thought the next summon arcanist gets is either going to be another gem Carbuncle thats going to be relegated to support/control duty, or it will be a new summon but regardless, it's going to be given to us through class quest.

We are not going to have to go out and search for them and defeat them in a hard fought battle that gave you a sense of accomplishment(and made fucking sense from a logical stand point).

 I didn't follow that convoluted line of thought (and it sounds like you haven't even looked at the arcanist/summoner abilities), but let's say that it is through a class quest. How does that show we won't fight them, or that there won't be some kind of trial? You're assuming the class quests do not consist of such a trial. Why wouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to have gotten to that level and completed the class quest?

Us learning the Topaz carbuncle is the equivalent of us going to our guild master and her saying, Oh hey, i found this little stray bugger running around and he needs a new owner, be a doll and take good care of it okay?

 I thought we covered that we were talking about higher summons here, not Carbuncle - at least, your argument hinges on that being the case...who says the other class/job quests are like that? And btw, even the early class quests when they are teaching you how to use a new summon like Topaz carbuncle are not exactly without challenge.

 

The summons in those games are definitely not necessarily against you. Take the aeons in FF10, the summoners just had to prove they were strong enough to command the aeons otherwise why should they give their strength to the summoner? This is how it was for pretty much all the games where you defeat the summons to control them.

 

FF tactics is a different kind of rpg all together aside from the pure RPG FF games which is why i didn't even list it, even the mmorpgs ffxi/ffxiv fit in line with them because they are first and foremost an rpg, just they're online and have a lot of players in them. But alas i'll give you that, you raised the number of FF games that didn't require you to battle for the summons outside the initial low lvl ones up to the number of 2. Grats.

 

You may call that a convoluted thought but fact remains. Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle are for all thoughts and purposes different summons. Starting with Emerald Carbuncle i have no qualms with that. Receiving Topaz Carbuncle from class quest shows we will recieve the rest of our summons from class quests. There is no question to that.

 

Its like WoW. Emerald Carbuncle = Imp. Topaz Carbuncle = Voidwalker. (next summon you got was succubus, which is why im pretty sure next summon we get will be a control-type summon and if it ocntinues to follow the theme, its going to be another color carbuncle but its a 50/50 that it'll be that or a diff type of summon, but whats almost 100% assured is it will just be given to us from class quest regardless.

 

If FFXIV was gonna follow the idea of we have to work for our summons, then we would have had to defeat the Topaz Carbuncle first and not just get it as a quest reward. I didn't say anything about higher summons only being the ones that you have to defeat. I said summons in general. Every single summon in FFX you had to defeat to obtain, every summon in FFXI (aside from starting with carbuncle) you had to defeat in order to obtain. I showed that this theme has been a central theme of FF ever since Final Fantasy 3 and the only game that didn't follow this mold was FF9.(And Tactics as you pointed out)


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  twrule

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 1260

8/23/13 1:55:45 AM#25
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by twrule
Originally posted by Sephiroso

What does this show? Aside from a couple games where yes you could buy the lesser summons(i.e. carbuncle) from shops, you had to go out and defeat summons to be able to have the right to summon them. This has been the case in every single iteration of Final Fantasy that has had Summons in them bar 1, FF9, because you learned summons from gems that you could find anywhere.

In FF6 they literally handed you most of the magicite for most of the summons as you progressed through the game - you fought a small handful of them in not particularly difficult fights, as part of that story. In FF Tactics, you purchased all the summons with skill points that you got just by entering many battles with Summoner as your job, and you could save up to buy the biggest baddest summon you wanted first, if you were so inclined.

I don't even know why we are arguing this, because every FF title reserves the right to be different, and has usually exercised that right with most things. There is no unbreakable or unbroken rule or precedent that you must fight the summons in every game in order to be able to use them.

You know what else is different here? The summons are against you. Unlike the other games, they won't agree to give you their power just because you defeated them. If anything, the summoners in XIV are either mimicking or forcibly wresting small portions of the power of the primals, which would be fine in the lore to do from anywhere.

How I can say for certain that the trend of leveling up and getting handed our summons through class quest(that we would do regardless if we got a new summon from it or not) will continue? Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle may indeed be the same Carbuncle. But they are two entirely different summons.

Topaz is a tank. Emerald is a caster(thus dps). Following this line of thought the next summon arcanist gets is either going to be another gem Carbuncle thats going to be relegated to support/control duty, or it will be a new summon but regardless, it's going to be given to us through class quest.

We are not going to have to go out and search for them and defeat them in a hard fought battle that gave you a sense of accomplishment(and made fucking sense from a logical stand point).

 I didn't follow that convoluted line of thought (and it sounds like you haven't even looked at the arcanist/summoner abilities), but let's say that it is through a class quest. How does that show we won't fight them, or that there won't be some kind of trial? You're assuming the class quests do not consist of such a trial. Why wouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to have gotten to that level and completed the class quest?

Us learning the Topaz carbuncle is the equivalent of us going to our guild master and her saying, Oh hey, i found this little stray bugger running around and he needs a new owner, be a doll and take good care of it okay?

 I thought we covered that we were talking about higher summons here, not Carbuncle - at least, your argument hinges on that being the case...who says the other class/job quests are like that? And btw, even the early class quests when they are teaching you how to use a new summon like Topaz carbuncle are not exactly without challenge.

 

The summons in those games are definitely not necessarily against you. Take the aeons in FF10, the summoners just had to prove they were strong enough to command the aeons otherwise why should they give their strength to the summoner? This is how it was for pretty much all the games where you defeat the summons to control them.

 I was saying in XIV they are against you, and pointing out that this breaks the precedent of the other games while also providing some lore backing for why we might not have to fight them to gain them. Thank you for agreeing with me.

You may call that a convoluted thought but fact remains. Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle are for all thoughts and purposes different summons. Starting with Emerald Carbuncle i have no qualms with that. Receiving Topaz Carbuncle from class quest shows we will recieve the rest of our summons from class quests. There is no question to that.

Its like WoW. Emerald Carbuncle = Imp. Topaz Carbuncle = Voidwalker. (next summon you got was succubus, which is why im pretty sure next summon we get will be a control-type summon and if it ocntinues to follow the theme, its going to be another color carbuncle but its a 50/50 that it'll be that or a diff type of summon, but whats almost 100% assured is it will just be given to us from class quest regardless.

 I was granting you that for the sake of argument. Getting them from a class quest doesn't necessarily mean that each one of them will be handed to use without having to go through any kind of challenge in said class quest though.

If FFXIV was gonna follow the idea of we have to work for our summons, then we would have had to defeat the Topaz Carbuncle first and not just get it as a quest reward.

That's a completely baseless statement. You assume based on 2 class quests that we will never have to fight a summon in any of the future class quests? Why should we have to fight carbuncle - the lore says that he is easy to command with novice powers - it does not say that about the other summons.

Btw, even if didn't actually fight the summon, again, that doesn't mean there will be no challenge and associated sense of accomplishment in acquiring them, or finishing the class quests with which they are tied. Even though you get handed Topaz Carbuncle, the class quest associated with him, which is meant to teach you how to use him, can be challenging if you don't actually make good use of him. There's no reason to believe future class quests couldn't be equally or more challenging.

I didn't say anything about higher summons only being the ones that you have to defeat.

Erm, you did say that the precedent was that some games give you the lesser summons while you had to fight the greater ones to earn them - what makes you think XIV won't be like that?

I said summons in general. Every single summon in FFX you had to defeat to obtain, every summon in FFXI (aside from starting with carbuncle) you had to defeat in order to obtain. I showed that this theme has been a central theme of FF ever since Final Fantasy 3 and the only game that didn't follow this mold was FF9.(And Tactics as you pointed out)

You didn't have to defeat the majority of the summons in FFX to obtain them, but you mentioned the Trials earlier, so I'll assume you meant those. Again, appealing to tradition for particular mechanics in FF games is usually fruitless - they take free reign with each new game, and as I fan I appreciate that. I like the idea of actually fighting all the summons too, but the fact is that that isn't specifically necessary to feel accomplished in collecting all of them, nor is getting them in some other way than fighting them automatically 'hand-holding'.

Whoof, I think I'm going to call it here - I'm not terribly invested in convincing you out of your opinion, and I'm getting tired. If you want to get upset about not being able to bash in poor little carbuncle's face in PvE, then I'll not keep you from it.

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

8/23/13 2:35:10 AM#26
Originally posted by twrule
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by twrule
Originally posted by Sephiroso

What does this show? Aside from a couple games where yes you could buy the lesser summons(i.e. carbuncle) from shops, you had to go out and defeat summons to be able to have the right to summon them. This has been the case in every single iteration of Final Fantasy that has had Summons in them bar 1, FF9, because you learned summons from gems that you could find anywhere.

In FF6 they literally handed you most of the magicite for most of the summons as you progressed through the game - you fought a small handful of them in not particularly difficult fights, as part of that story. In FF Tactics, you purchased all the summons with skill points that you got just by entering many battles with Summoner as your job, and you could save up to buy the biggest baddest summon you wanted first, if you were so inclined.

I don't even know why we are arguing this, because every FF title reserves the right to be different, and has usually exercised that right with most things. There is no unbreakable or unbroken rule or precedent that you must fight the summons in every game in order to be able to use them.

You know what else is different here? The summons are against you. Unlike the other games, they won't agree to give you their power just because you defeated them. If anything, the summoners in XIV are either mimicking or forcibly wresting small portions of the power of the primals, which would be fine in the lore to do from anywhere.

How I can say for certain that the trend of leveling up and getting handed our summons through class quest(that we would do regardless if we got a new summon from it or not) will continue? Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle may indeed be the same Carbuncle. But they are two entirely different summons.

Topaz is a tank. Emerald is a caster(thus dps). Following this line of thought the next summon arcanist gets is either going to be another gem Carbuncle thats going to be relegated to support/control duty, or it will be a new summon but regardless, it's going to be given to us through class quest.

We are not going to have to go out and search for them and defeat them in a hard fought battle that gave you a sense of accomplishment(and made fucking sense from a logical stand point).

 I didn't follow that convoluted line of thought (and it sounds like you haven't even looked at the arcanist/summoner abilities), but let's say that it is through a class quest. How does that show we won't fight them, or that there won't be some kind of trial? You're assuming the class quests do not consist of such a trial. Why wouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to have gotten to that level and completed the class quest?

Us learning the Topaz carbuncle is the equivalent of us going to our guild master and her saying, Oh hey, i found this little stray bugger running around and he needs a new owner, be a doll and take good care of it okay?

 I thought we covered that we were talking about higher summons here, not Carbuncle - at least, your argument hinges on that being the case...who says the other class/job quests are like that? And btw, even the early class quests when they are teaching you how to use a new summon like Topaz carbuncle are not exactly without challenge.

 

The summons in those games are definitely not necessarily against you. Take the aeons in FF10, the summoners just had to prove they were strong enough to command the aeons otherwise why should they give their strength to the summoner? This is how it was for pretty much all the games where you defeat the summons to control them.

 I was saying in XIV they are against you, and pointing out that this breaks the precedent of the other games while also providing some lore backing for why we might not have to fight them to gain them. Thank you for agreeing with me.

You may call that a convoluted thought but fact remains. Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle are for all thoughts and purposes different summons. Starting with Emerald Carbuncle i have no qualms with that. Receiving Topaz Carbuncle from class quest shows we will recieve the rest of our summons from class quests. There is no question to that.

Its like WoW. Emerald Carbuncle = Imp. Topaz Carbuncle = Voidwalker. (next summon you got was succubus, which is why im pretty sure next summon we get will be a control-type summon and if it ocntinues to follow the theme, its going to be another color carbuncle but its a 50/50 that it'll be that or a diff type of summon, but whats almost 100% assured is it will just be given to us from class quest regardless.

 I was granting you that for the sake of argument. Getting them from a class quest doesn't necessarily mean that each one of them will be handed to use without having to go through any kind of challenge in said class quest though.

If FFXIV was gonna follow the idea of we have to work for our summons, then we would have had to defeat the Topaz Carbuncle first and not just get it as a quest reward.

That's a completely baseless statement. You assume based on 2 class quests that we will never have to fight a summon in any of the future class quests? Why should we have to fight carbuncle - the lore says that he is easy to command with novice powers - it does not say that about the other summons.

Btw, even if didn't actually fight the summon, again, that doesn't mean there will be no challenge and associated sense of accomplishment in acquiring them, or finishing the class quests with which they are tied. Even though you get handed Topaz Carbuncle, the class quest associated with him, which is meant to teach you how to use him, can be challenging if you don't actually make good use of him. There's no reason to believe future class quests couldn't be equally or more challenging.

I didn't say anything about higher summons only being the ones that you have to defeat.

Erm, you did say that the precedent was that some games give you the lesser summons while you had to fight the greater ones to earn them - what makes you think XIV won't be like that?

I said summons in general. Every single summon in FFX you had to defeat to obtain, every summon in FFXI (aside from starting with carbuncle) you had to defeat in order to obtain. I showed that this theme has been a central theme of FF ever since Final Fantasy 3 and the only game that didn't follow this mold was FF9.(And Tactics as you pointed out)

You didn't have to defeat the majority of the summons in FFX to obtain them, but you mentioned the Trials earlier, so I'll assume you meant those. Again, appealing to tradition for particular mechanics in FF games is usually fruitless - they take free reign with each new game, and as I fan I appreciate that. I like the idea of actually fighting all the summons too, but the fact is that that isn't specifically necessary to feel accomplished in collecting all of them, nor is getting them in some other way than fighting them automatically 'hand-holding'.

Whoof, I think I'm going to call it here - I'm not terribly invested in convincing you out of your opinion, and I'm getting tired. If you want to get upset about not being able to bash in poor little carbuncle's face in PvE, then I'll not keep you from it.

First off i did not agree with your first point in anyway by saying that the summons aren't necessarily against us. Sure the PRIMALS are. But when i say summons i mean the summons the class that can summon them are able to use. Not talking about the Primal like Ifrit/Behemoth that are obviously against us.

 

Also every class is going to do their class quest regardless. So it doesnt matter if class quest is challenging or not(and they most definitely are not, they are snooze-fest EZ mode) Because regardless every class is going to be doing them. Also stripping the feature that they've spent years and years building upon in FF that summoners are just handed their summons without fighting them first to prove they're worthy to summon them is my point, not that class quests we get them from are challenging or not, though i wouldn't complain so much if the class quests actually were challenging.

 

What you should be asking instead is, why is Topaz Carbuncle even a fucking summon. It should have been an entirely different summon, not just another color of Carbuncle. The fact that our 2nd summon that has a completely different use from the first is still a Carbuncle leads one to believe that all Arcanists summons will merely be forms of Carbuncles. Also we already know that there are 2 ways for classes to get spells. You level up and you get a spell or you get a spell from class quest. We already saw all the spells in the spell/skill list that you get from leveling up. Everything you don't see is gained from class quest. Obviously the rest of the summons will be obtained from class quest rewards just like the Topaz Carbuncle. So no, i did not make a baseless statement.

 

Yes actually i did mean the trials, as for some you're right you didn't have to defeat them but you had to pass the trials which which actually were pretty challenging and made you think. Thus the whole -not handholding- theme of every other FF game with summons. While you claim they take free reign to change mechanics here and there, established mechanics are not changed at the core. And the core of the summons is you go out and fight them or perform an equally difficult challenge to show you're worthy of them. That is not the case in FFXIV, the only games where this wasn't the case is FF9. (not even was this the case in FF tactics since you had to beat a tough battle to get access to the summons or long sidequest).

 

I'll repeat myself. If the class quests were even remotely challenging i wouldn't really have even complained to begin with, but they are not. Also given that every class will be doing their class quests regardless, the act of the arcanist getting its' summons shouldn't really be tied to just getting a spell from class quest imo since it should be something of a choice for arcanists, not something forced unto them.

 

I'm not upset that we can't bash in poor little Carbuncles face as you say, its merely the handholding that i find in distaste.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  daystar18

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 15

8/23/13 4:08:30 AM#27
True words from a class that only reached level 20!
  twrule

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 1260

8/23/13 4:20:54 AM#28
Originally posted by daystar18
True words from a class that only reached level 20!

Seriously. Seph, there no reason to complain about difficulty you can only speculate about, and would probably be unwilling to admit to the extent it's there.

I've gone over why it doesn't necessarily make lore sense in XIV for summoners to 'prove their worth' to their EGI's - they are something they control, just like the WoW warlock controls his demons, as far as we know. They can do whatever they want with their lore. Sorry.

If you are so adverse to the idea of getting something without a literal fight, even when no one promised you one in the first-place, and that that = hand-holding...I don't know what to tell you. I guess it is hand-holding by your definition. Fine.

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

8/23/13 4:28:29 AM#29
Originally posted by twrule
Originally posted by daystar18
True words from a class that only reached level 20!

Seriously. Seph, there no reason to complain about difficulty you can only speculate about, and would probably be unwilling to admit to the extent it's there.

I've gone over why it doesn't necessarily make lore sense in XIV for summoners to 'prove their worth' to their EGI's - they are something they control, just like the WoW warlock controls his demons, as far as we know. They can do whatever they want with their lore. Sorry.

If you are so adverse to the idea of getting something without a literal fight, even when no one promised you one in the first-place, and that that = hand-holding...I don't know what to tell you. I guess it is hand-holding by your definition. Fine.

Yes, yes it does make sense from a lore sense. Think about pokemon. You catch a level 40 Pokemon but you don't get the 4th gym badge yet. Sure you caught it, but you didn't show you're worthy to control it and for it to let you borrow its abilities to help you in battle, so it won't listen to you and ignore you cause in its eyes, you're just a weakling why should it let you control it?

 

Now, done laughing that i compared summoners to pokemon? Because it makes perfect sense. If you want to be close minded enough to scoff at that, then whatever.

 

Also again, its not even that we get the summons without fighting them, but that we get them without an appropriate challenge. Its just a, oh you completed another kill x,y,z quest? here you go. EZ-mode quest that chafes my britches.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  twrule

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 1260

8/23/13 5:04:01 AM#30
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by twrule
Originally posted by daystar18
True words from a class that only reached level 20!

Seriously. Seph, there no reason to complain about difficulty you can only speculate about, and would probably be unwilling to admit to the extent it's there.

I've gone over why it doesn't necessarily make lore sense in XIV for summoners to 'prove their worth' to their EGI's - they are something they control, just like the WoW warlock controls his demons, as far as we know. They can do whatever they want with their lore. Sorry.

If you are so adverse to the idea of getting something without a literal fight, even when no one promised you one in the first-place, and that that = hand-holding...I don't know what to tell you. I guess it is hand-holding by your definition. Fine.

Yes, yes it does make sense from a lore sense. Think about pokemon. You catch a level 40 Pokemon but you don't get the 4th gym badge yet. Sure you caught it, but you didn't show you're worthy to control it and for it to let you borrow its abilities to help you in battle, so it won't listen to you and ignore you cause in its eyes, you're just a weakling why should it let you control it?

Now, done laughing that i compared summoners to pokemon? Because it makes perfect sense. If you want to be close minded enough to scoff at that, then whatever.

 I don't care that you used that analogy, but that's just not how the lore is here, so it's fruitless. In fact, I'd say the FF lore has not really been like that in the past - the summons followed the heros because through battle they found they were true of heart or w/e bs.

Also again, its not even that we get the summons without fighting them, but that we get them without an appropriate challenge. Its just a, oh you completed another kill x,y,z quest? here you go. EZ-mode quest that chafes my britches.

And here is where I've been telling you that you have no appropriate basis for such a claim. The class quests are not just more 'kill x' quests, especially the 10-15+ ones, and even if they were, that leaves the majority of the levels and the strongest summons to go. Furthermore, some people are saying it's possible to capture the primals temporarily in a raid group when you defeat them on extreme mode. Is that enough challenge for you?

 

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

8/23/13 8:35:02 AM#31
Originally posted by twrule
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by twrule
Originally posted by daystar18
True words from a class that only reached level 20!

Seriously. Seph, there no reason to complain about difficulty you can only speculate about, and would probably be unwilling to admit to the extent it's there.

I've gone over why it doesn't necessarily make lore sense in XIV for summoners to 'prove their worth' to their EGI's - they are something they control, just like the WoW warlock controls his demons, as far as we know. They can do whatever they want with their lore. Sorry.

If you are so adverse to the idea of getting something without a literal fight, even when no one promised you one in the first-place, and that that = hand-holding...I don't know what to tell you. I guess it is hand-holding by your definition. Fine.

Yes, yes it does make sense from a lore sense. Think about pokemon. You catch a level 40 Pokemon but you don't get the 4th gym badge yet. Sure you caught it, but you didn't show you're worthy to control it and for it to let you borrow its abilities to help you in battle, so it won't listen to you and ignore you cause in its eyes, you're just a weakling why should it let you control it?

Now, done laughing that i compared summoners to pokemon? Because it makes perfect sense. If you want to be close minded enough to scoff at that, then whatever.

 I don't care that you used that analogy, but that's just not how the lore is here, so it's fruitless. In fact, I'd say the FF lore has not really been like that in the past - the summons followed the heros because through battle they found they were true of heart or w/e bs.

Also again, its not even that we get the summons without fighting them, but that we get them without an appropriate challenge. Its just a, oh you completed another kill x,y,z quest? here you go. EZ-mode quest that chafes my britches.

And here is where I've been telling you that you have no appropriate basis for such a claim. The class quests are not just more 'kill x' quests, especially the 10-15+ ones, and even if they were, that leaves the majority of the levels and the strongest summons to go. Furthermore, some people are saying it's possible to capture the primals temporarily in a raid group when you defeat them on extreme mode. Is that enough challenge for you?

 

Again, you keep bringing up the fact that raid groups can capture the primals to summon them, i'm not talking about the boss summons. I'm talking about summons that -every- single arcanist can summon. And yes, the class quests, even the 15+ ones are still simple kill x,y,z quests. They just have instances and cutscenes and a story tacked on. But you still have to retrieve x, y, z item and/or kill x, y, z mobs, usually just a big brawl and you get help from whoever your go-to npc is in the guild of your class(like arcanists, is that girl with the glasses).

 

All class quests have been just as easy as the one previous. lvl 20 just as easy as lvl 15 just as easy as lvl 10 just as easy as lvl 5. They don't and won't get any harder. This is actually a complaint i believe people who've played 1.0 had, is how easy the class quests are compared to before.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  twrule

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 1260

8/23/13 6:05:33 PM#32
Originally posted by Sephiroso

All class quests have been just as easy as the one previous. lvl 20 just as easy as lvl 15 just as easy as lvl 10 just as easy as lvl 5. They don't and won't get any harder. This is actually a complaint i believe people who've played 1.0 had, is how easy the class quests are compared to before.

Okay, fine. Based on insufficient evidence, let's assume all the class quests are going to be faceroll easy mode and so all the summons will be 'handed' to us. And let's bemoan while we play that it's such 'EZ mode' and 'hand-holding'. Sure. I'm sure that will make us feel good about ourselves at least.

Maybe we can let people talk about the video which is the topic of this thread now, which features the *Primals*.

  Ganksinatra

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/28/09
Posts: 274

8/23/13 6:53:06 PM#33

Sephiroso is what I like to call the "Never Happy Gamer". He's probably the same guy who complains things like "These graphics are too cartoony", or "The game didn't even tell me what to do, it just dropped me into it", or "These are the same quests over and over". He is part of an entitled gamer generation who thinks whatever HE thinks is fact, and anyone who disagrees with him is "willfully ignorant". He is, no doubt, the biggest reason MMOs have gone from the masterpiece that was the originals like EQ and UO, to Wildstar and WoW these days......boring carbon copies of one another, attempting so hard to dumb it down the the lowest common denominator so everyone gets their epic lootz. 

 

TL:DR- Your opinion about hand holding is neither fact as you seem to think it is, nor is it productive to this thread. Go make another post about hand holding elsewhere so you can immediately be warned about trolling.....which you are obviously doing right now.

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