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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » ESO will be P2P

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317 posts found
  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4818

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

8/21/13 5:35:02 AM#41
Nuff said...

  Master.Ryu

Novice Member

Joined: 12/13/12
Posts: 55

8/21/13 5:35:53 AM#42
That's a shame. We'll see it and Final Fantasy a few months after release anyways.
  Acvivm

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/25/10
Posts: 314

8/21/13 5:44:38 AM#43

Oh man, lol this is getting a little crazy now that both ESO and Wildstar are going the sub route, did the date change to 2005 while we weren't looking? I have never had a problem with a subscription model myself, my problems have always been with the games quality or lack there of. If the game sucks then yes I probably will not continue playing past the first month. If the game is great then I will be more then willing to spend the $15 to continue playing because to me that is chump change in comparison to the amount of enjoyment I will get for the money.

 

I never really planned on playing ESO from the get go mostly because it was rumored to have a F2P model. Now that the game is going sub based, my interest level has immediately risen because the chances of a ridiculous cash shop ruining it are much lower then it most certainly would have been with F2P. With Wildstar coming out around the same time its going to be tough deciding on which to play, I haven't been excited for MMOs in a long time but with the sub announcement for both Wild and ESO I am actually once again excited to see how they turn out.

 

HEAVEN OR HELL
Duel 1
Lets ROCK!

  Brabbit1987

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 683

8/21/13 5:51:18 AM#44

A little math for you all.

If a game decides to go P2P and only 1/5 of their fans decide that is ok, it would take them roughly 16 months to make the same amount they would have made by going Buy to play to begin with. That means they would have to hold their subs for 16 months with out decrease.

If 1/2 decide to still pay a sub, they would need to hold that sub for 9 months with out decrease to make the same amount.

This is all assuming your entire sub base is paying the full $15 a month. Also assuming there is a $60 price tag to purchase the game.

Basically, they really are being very very brave here. This choice could mean a very very large loss. You have to make a lot of assumptions. It's a pretty big gamble.

 

Edit: I suppose I should point out this is based on if they where able to get 10 million players interested initially. They would be in a worse spot if it's lower.

  asrlohz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 663

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

8/21/13 5:57:37 AM#45

Personally, I enjoy the sub model. If the game is good enough to stand on its own it will work out for them. Although, I would love to see the monthly subscription break away from the "WoW-Standard" of €12.99 /month model. Surely €5.99 - €7.99 would be enough? After all, it would give them somewhat of an advantage over other subscription based titles.

 

Free to play MMOs are often played only because they are free. And if you are not prepared to commit to them, you will probably get bored somewhat soon.

 

Buy to play MMOs might be good but since you feel like your not wasting your money by not playing it, chances are that you'll never get around to. And if you do, you might easily "take a break" and then just procrastinate it. (Unless you've found a social circle in it)

 

Both of those payment models are great. But as Pavlov showed us in his behaviour psychology we can safely say that by making a ritual of subbing to a game and feeling compelled to play the game since otherwise you are letting your subscription go to waste often equals more loyal playerbases. Sure, if the game is terrible most people will just stop playing and not resubscribe. But if the game is terrific; the former rule applies.

 

Thing is, if the game is good it will most likely gain a (substantial) loyal playerbase, especially if it is pay to play. So either it is good and I settle with it and play it on and off for 10 years (only to start whining about how good it was in vanilla and how they have simplified the game) or it goes much like SW:TOR and I blast through the storyline only to get bored of it and leave it in the far end of my harddrive. Either way, I'm looking forward to TES:O

  vmoped

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 1722

8/21/13 6:00:55 AM#46

I am reserving my thoughts on this until I can get some gameplay time on this title.  If a game is worth it I would gladly pay a sub over a cash shop, assuming content was added on a regular basis.  I had no issues subbing to WoW for years back in the day because it gave me world with plenty to do (the same for SWG, Shadowbane, DAoC, etc...).  I have yet to play a F2P game that didn't try to force me to grind myself to boredom or nickel and dime me for every little thing to enjoy the game.  I do enjoy GW2, on occasion  (once a week), but I would like a game that pulls me in and personally gw2 hasn't done that.

It reminds me of the two arcades in my town.  One is 8 bucks and play as long and much as you want, the other is $.25-$1 standard per game session.  Guess which one gives me the better deal (and lets me bring my own booze and drink)?

Cheers!

MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S

  User Deleted
8/21/13 6:03:38 AM#47

The P2P model will work for PC (maybe) but for consoles there is no way ppl will pay 14.99$ per month. They allready have to pay for their mmo services so they can play with their friends online...

ESO will be crawling on their knees, begging the PC crowd to forgive them and to save them...

  Nikopol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/08
Posts: 627

Brought to you by... The Spirit of Nikopol.

8/21/13 6:03:55 AM#48

I think it was a safer bet for Wildstar, but I'm happy TESO is going P2P, too. In all probability I'll sub to both games. If I get 10 hours a month from each, that's good entertainment money to me.

I know some people compare this to cable TV and the like, but for me it's not even close, probably because I just hate TV, haha. Anyway, if you see an MMO as "killing some time" and not good entertainment, then yeah, a monthly sub is probably going to look pretty pointless. I see it the other way, so to me it makes sense.

  NightBandit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 767

Make friends not money, then wealth will follow.

8/21/13 6:11:12 AM#49
Originally posted by RollieJoe

Final Fantasy, Wildstar, and now Elder Scrolls, all going to be P2P.   I'm glad to see we'll finally be getting some quality MMO games and not the cash shop garbage F2P MMO #283 cranked out this month. 

 

Very happy major MMO's are going back to subscription/quality model.

+1 could not agree more ever since the introduction of F2P model the quality of gamers have gone down the pan and the community has also suffered IMO. This type of model gets commitment from players so once you buy the box you stick with the game unless there are major problems then you move on.

I spent 9 years playing EQI and 10 in Eve which I have 6 accounts and both of these were sub models and Eve is growing from strength to strength so it must being doing something right.

What makes me laugh about this announcement is the amount of whining this is causing, but if you ask the people who are crying and kicking up a fuss about the pricing model if they would work for free then I bet you all know the response from that, so how can you expect companies to spend millions to give it away for free it just does not make sense.

So gamers have to decide, do they want F2P and have crap games forever or do they want to start contributing and have quality games? Look at the like of kickstarters games, the fans have put their money where their mouth is to support their dream game. They have paid far more than a years monthly fees in some cases as they are passionate about what they want. Go on their boards and see how fantastic they are and how the boards feel the sense of community/force is strong in this one LUKE!

Look at Wow and while I'm no fan of this game at all they have had sub for so long and have made millions and still do so it proves if you get the right formula then people will moan but will pay to play if it's game what they want in a game.

As for the console players well this had me giggling I have to say because they feel they have a god given right to all their way in games. If the console player wants the same as the PC gamer has then they too have to open their fat wallets to contribute and damn right too.

IMO MMOs are not big on consoles and I hope it stays that way as using funds to cross platform can detract from the initial game design. When I heard that ESO was delaying it due to the transfer to cross platform the game confirms what I've said. However that said if they have to pay to play like I do then I'm cool about them getting to play as well now. Still not make me buy one of them under the TV boxes at any cost.

When I fly over to Germany tomorrow I will visit the guys at ESO and shake their hands and support their pricing model and any other MMO companies who are planning of hitting the market in the close future too.

 

The Bandit

  Brabbit1987

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 683

8/21/13 6:19:51 AM#50
Originally posted by Nikopol

I think it was a safer bet for Wildstar, but I'm happy TESO is going P2P, too. In all probability I'll sub to both games. If I get 10 hours a month from each, that's good entertainment money to me.

I know some people compare this to cable TV and the like, but for me it's not even close, probably because I just hate TV, haha. Anyway, if you see an MMO as "killing some time" and not good entertainment, then yeah, a monthly sub is probably going to look pretty pointless. I see it the other way, so to me it makes sense.

I don't think anyone who is able to calculate basic math problems should be happy a game goes P2P. Sure it has it's benefits for the players to some extent, however, if the game doesn't hold enough subs it loses a lot more money in comparison to if they started as a B2P game.

A game that starts as B2P tends to remain B2P. More customers are likely to buy it. P2P lowers your player base which requires you to hold onto subs for long periods of time to make the same amount. Again if it fails, it has to go F2P, which makes a game another victim and repeats the cycle all over again of why people complain about crappy MMOs.

It amazes me to no end, and yes I am using this analogy again, how many times it takes people to learn not to touch an electric fence.

Some people think $15 a month is too steep, when in reality it could very well not be enough. People underestimate the amount you can get simply buy increasing the amount of players itself using a B2P model. 

If P2P lowers your player base down to 1/5 or even 1/2 of what it was, your pretty much screwed. All the P2P players that are happy end up being screwed over in the end as well, by the very thing they wanted. -.-

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2933

8/21/13 6:24:35 AM#51

Where does this "folk tale" of P2P being "outdated" actually come from ? Is it simply a case of too many people repeating the same lie so many times that they think it's the new truth ?

 

How many full-featured AAA MMORPG's have launched as F2P so far in history ?

NONE

ZERO

ZIP

 

In fact, EQ:Next will probably be the first one EVER !

 

Yes,  many full-featured AAA MMORPG's have converted from subscription-based to F2P (mostly freemium) payment models. But they only made the conversion because their player numbers had dwindled to the point where they were in danger of no longer being profitable.

People don't rush to play "old" MMO's, they want to play the latest and greatest. So those older MMO's find it increasingly difficult to replace lost players. Why pay a sub for an old game if you can pay the same to play a shiny "modern" one ?

So F2P becomes an attractive option for the legacy MMO's. The same thing happens to SPG's that are $60 at release and $10 a year later on Steam sales. Any gamer knows this pattern. Yet millions of them still pre-order the full-price new release EVERY TIME because they want the game NAO !

  NightBandit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 767

Make friends not money, then wealth will follow.

8/21/13 6:25:18 AM#52
Originally posted by morbuskabis

The P2P model will work for PC (maybe) but for consoles there is no way ppl will pay 14.99$ per month. They allready have to pay for their mmo services so they can play with their friends online...

ESO will be crawling on their knees, begging the PC crowd to forgive them and to save them...

IMO that's a pretty poor argument, however if that's is the case, then its the console model which needs to change not the PC model. If there are that many console gamers they need to revolt against the likes of Sony and Microsoft that's the only way to change things. As long as the console player allows them selves to be ripped off, then them giants will carry on with the status Quo.

IMO the giants are making console players pay to play online as the MMO model is to PC gamers, so it's up to the console gamers to force a change they have the numbers to do it just not the will.

The way I see it is the console gamers have to choose if they want to play ESO then cancel your payment to Microsoft or Sony and sub to ESO quite simple imo. If you want both the get your hand in your wallet and pay like the rest of us have too. If you don't have the funds, then tuff, go earn them like I have too to play my hobbies.

The Bandit

  vmoped

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 1722

8/21/13 6:34:50 AM#53
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Where does this "folk tale" of P2P being "outdated" actually come from ? Is it simply a case of too many people repeating the same lie so many times that they think it's the new truth ?

 

How many full-featured AAA MMORPG's have launched as F2P so far in history ?

NONE

ZERO

ZIP

 

In fact, EQ:Next will probably be the first one EVER !

 

Yes,  many full-featured AAA MMORPG's have converted from subscription-based to F2P (mostly freemium) payment models. But they only made the conversion because their player numbers had dwindled to the point where they were in danger of no longer being profitable.

People don't rush to play "old" MMO's, they want to play the latest and greatest. So those older MMO's find it increasingly difficult to replace lost players. Why pay a sub for an old game if you can pay the same to play a shiny "modern" one ?

So F2P becomes an attractive option for the legacy MMO's. The same thing happens to SPG's that are $60 at release and $10 a year later on Steam sales. Any gamer knows this pattern. Yet millions of them still pre-order the full-price new release EVERY TIME because they want the game NAO !

The problem is what is considered AAA?  Neverwinter claims (as did many media sites) that it was the first Western AAA F2P mmo to launch, and thus far is claiming success.  Not to mention the numerous Asian AAA F2P titles that have released for the past couple of years.  EQN will not be the first mate.

I agree with your core argument that P2P is not a "old" payment model, and personally prefer it, if the game warrants it to me.

Cheers!

MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S

  frakthefriendly

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/13
Posts: 4

8/21/13 6:35:13 AM#54

I'm just glad everyone was mature about ZOS decision to go P2P and did not act like little bitches and whined about 14 dollars a month.

Good for you guys.  :)

  Sabbicat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/19/06
Posts: 261

Common Sense - The ultra rare loot with extreme decay.

8/21/13 6:37:20 AM#55

I'm quite happy to see it going subscription based. I have played games with various payment formats before. For me it is the game play, graphics and content that matter most. If all of those are good I'm willing to pay.

There have been some games in the past that will hook you with the free to play model but then you end up spending more per month just to get the latest item or keys for some chest.

I would not be keen to be out exploring and come across a chest and then have to go to the game store to buy a lock pick because I broke the last one only to get useless loot at the end.

  Vocadi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/21/04
Posts: 194

8/21/13 6:41:03 AM#56

I am torn. I really appreciate games that are pay to play. I feel like I am paying for the entire package, that the game content and world is exclusive and that I do not need to worry about grinding in order to pay my way to upgrades. I am at a quandry because currently our household is a bit strapped and cannot afford multiple subscriptions.

Hopefully in the future we might be able to maintain a subscription but until then we will miss out.

  Sasami

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/08
Posts: 330

8/21/13 6:50:09 AM#57

Major IP games with P2P that have been success lately: World of Warcraft

Major IP games with P2P that have failed lately(and changed model): EQ2, SWTOR, Lotro, DDO, Age of Conan...

So how big change is that this P2P model will work, not very good. Problem with major IPs is that they are just so expensive that having less than 1-2 million subs isn't worthy. I just think there isn't market for that.

  frakthefriendly

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/13
Posts: 4

8/21/13 6:56:11 AM#58
Originally posted by Sasami

Major IP games with P2P that have been success lately: World of Warcraft

Major IP games with P2P that have failed lately(and changed model): EQ2, SWTOR, Lotro, DDO, Age of Conan...

So how big change is that this P2P model will work, not very good. Problem with major IPs is that they are just so expensive that having less than 1-2 million subs isn't worthy. I just think there isn't market for that.

Payment model has nothing to do with success of a game.   How much fun it is matters.

People will pay a lot for a fun game.

People won't even play a free game if it is boring.

 

  Brabbit1987

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 683

8/21/13 7:01:28 AM#59
Originally posted by Sasami

Major IP games with P2P that have been success lately: World of Warcraft

Major IP games with P2P that have failed lately(and changed model): EQ2, SWTOR, Lotro, DDO, Age of Conan...

So how big change is that this P2P model will work, not very good. Problem with major IPs is that they are just so expensive that having less than 1-2 million subs isn't worthy. I just think there isn't market for that.

If they do not get at the very least 1/2 of the players interested, they will have to switch to F2P which will make them worse off then if they had gone B2P to begin with.

It shocks me to see how many player support such a fundamentally retarded payment model and then act shocked when it always seems to fail.

Every single time, they act all excited about a game going P2P, just for them to be pissed they spent money on it just for it to go F2P later. They blame the F2P model, when plenty of MMOs have gone P2P and simply just failed to keep the model going.

Every time they act like, "this time" will be different. Let's touch the electric fence again and again and again. Because 20 times from now .. it might not shock us. X3

Oh YES, this will be the next great AAA title, it's P2P .. it's HERE! It's going to be Awesome!  1 year from now ... ya it failed .. it sucked .. they decided to go free to play, because it failed.

The only way a game can really use this P2P model is if they make something revolutionary that has not been done before and attracts as many players as a B2P game with out losing any of them by switching to a P2P model. For every player you lose, you need another player to spend 4 extra months playing. Which is just a crazy gamble.

  asrlohz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 663

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

8/21/13 7:03:12 AM#60
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Nikopol

I think it was a safer bet for Wildstar, but I'm happy TESO is going P2P, too. In all probability I'll sub to both games. If I get 10 hours a month from each, that's good entertainment money to me.

I know some people compare this to cable TV and the like, but for me it's not even close, probably because I just hate TV, haha. Anyway, if you see an MMO as "killing some time" and not good entertainment, then yeah, a monthly sub is probably going to look pretty pointless. I see it the other way, so to me it makes sense.

I don't think anyone who is able to calculate basic math problems should be happy a game goes P2P. Sure it has it's benefits for the players to some extent, however, if the game doesn't hold enough subs it loses a lot more money in comparison to if they started as a B2P game.

A game that starts as B2P tends to remain B2P. More customers are likely to buy it. P2P lowers your player base which requires you to hold onto subs for long periods of time to make the same amount. Again if it fails, it has to go F2P, which makes a game another victim and repeats the cycle all over again of why people complain about crappy MMOs.

It amazes me to no end, and yes I am using this analogy again, how many times it takes people to learn not to touch an electric fence.

Some people think $15 a month is too steep, when in reality it could very well not be enough. People underestimate the amount you can get simply buy increasing the amount of players itself using a B2P model. 

If P2P lowers your player base down to 1/5 or even 1/2 of what it was, your pretty much screwed. All the P2P players that are happy end up being screwed over in the end as well, by the very thing they wanted. -.-

Alright, time to pull out the old debunking-gloves!

 

Heroes of Newerth started out as a B2P, it went free to play as well.

There haven't been enough B2P to say that "most" of them never go F2P. And even so, their game often goes on sale for barely anything, much like TSW and GW2.

More people are likely to buy it, but less people are likely to stay. Most leveling zones in GW2, TSW and SWTOR are ghost towns. There are barely any active servers.

Almost all games start off with a greater playerbase than what they will be left with after 6 months. WoW being an exception, but WoW slowly made more players by adding more content and keeping their marketing up. And WoW isn't really that great of a game.

TSW went from P2P to B2P. Doesn't have to go straight to F2P.

It is enough. 10% of the Planetside 2 players actually spent money in their cashshop. And they are still adding content and have a healthy community. And Planetside 2 is completely free to play. Not initial cost. I spent above average on PS2, that being €25. And I still have Station Cash to spare. (although I did purchase it during a special offer)

 

I'll be honest, most of your arguments are based on if the game isn't good. But that goes for every last game in the world. No matter what kind of hype is pulled. Induction isn't a valid assumption in this industry unless it is the same company releasing the games.

If a horse continues to get shocked by an electric fence, chances are that it will be shocked if it touches it again. But if the horse is moved to a wooden pen, it won't think that it will shock it, hence it will try touching it.

Induction would work if ZOS already had released two P2P MMO's and they had failed. But most of those developers were from Mythic and their games are mostly considered successful. Such as Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online (WAR is debatable.) but both of those MMO's are still successfully running with subscriptions.

 

Anyhow, next time you are trying to make a point, source it. Oh, and speaking of which!

Time for my sources:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/07/29/heroes-of-newerth-goes-free-to-play

http://www.thesecretworld.com/news/subscription_no_longer_required

http://www.statista.com/statistics/208146/number-of-subscribers-of-world-of-warcraft/

http://news.softpedia.com/news/10-of-Planetside-2-Players-Are-Paying-to-Access-the-MMO-315668.shtml

 

 

 

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