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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are MMOs focusing too much on FUN?

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449 posts found
  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5281

8/22/13 3:10:07 AM#81
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by nariusseldon

And what is wrong with "the rabbit finishing the race pretty fast"? Just give the rabbit another race. Or something else to do. 

Nothing is "wrong" with that, it's just inferior (for developers and players) to a game where you want to stick with things far longer.  In the most extreme cases (comparing a quick-burn game with WOW) it's dramatically inferior.

A game players are willing to stay with long-term represents a higher quality game.

Well that's what I was getting at, you can take longer to level as long as there is always something good to do. And yes if you could race to top level and have something new to do that would be fine, but MMO's mostly fail badly there. Game hopping after you have burned your way to top level just shows how bad the MMO was.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/22/13 4:18:04 AM#82
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Ah ... and i don't  care to stick with things longer. Bring the rabbit race on!

I will only play a game longer if it is naturally fun. There is no need to prolong my involvement in a game just because. 

Who said anything about staying "just because"?  I'm saying that games are better when they're fun enough to be worth staying longer, which also adds an extra value to players in the form of their time investment feeling more worthwhile in the long-run.

In that context, you're essentially saying, "I'm fine with games being less fun, because I'm going to game-hop anyway," which is slightly ridiculous, and would be a disastrous notion if everyone treated games that way (since we'd end up in a neverending cycle of ever-worse games which fail to be much fun even in the short term.)

  Volmok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/22/12
Posts: 64

8/22/13 4:34:29 AM#83

I also remember going to grind for gold in elite areas on PvP servers, man that was fun as hell; 5 guildies killing hard mobs and engaging in small scale open world PvP. Yes that was vanilla WoW in Tyr's Hand before the nerfs and epic galore in dungeons (raids were very hard back then .... more like broken mobs).

My fav troll spell was to poly alliance players when the messenger was coming and watch them get owned and lose durability ;) Fun times; ofc I was a student with too much time on my hands so that worked perfectly for me. Nowadays I have a job and soon to be married and do not have time for those long game hours so I enjoy MMOs where you can get to max level fast and gear up to be able to PvP (PvE takes more time that I want to invest), but I have to partially agree with mini games and all that crap in an MMO.

If I want a mini game I play Minesweeper or Diamonds or any other small Indie game on Steam; I also think that the resources could be better invested into other aspect of an MMO like: new raids, new PvP maps, class mechanics, performance, porting on other OS, etc.

 

V.

  MumboJumbo

Elite Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3204

Veni, Vidi, Converti

8/22/13 4:38:20 AM#84
To sum the OP: Most current mmorpgs are not "mmorpgs". Probably true.
  zymurgeist

Elite Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5199

8/22/13 4:50:51 AM#85

I don't know

Do doctors focus too much on practicing medicine?

Do armies focus too much on killing the enemy?

Do forums focus too much on discussion.

The problem isn't that they focus too much on fun it's that they don't focus enough on making socialization fun, easy, and effective.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2835

There... are... four... lights!

8/22/13 5:26:13 AM#86
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Boring grind that eventually leads to you feeling relief later on when you finish it

Imagine the even greater relief of deciding not to pound your face with the brick at all next time. Sure, it's a relief when you stop doing it. But you can take the short cut and just...not do it in the first place.

 

"From your birth until your final breath
I'm proud to say you finally entertained yourself to death" -A. Cooper

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

8/22/13 8:57:15 AM#87

I think your question should have been, Do MMO Players want Fun or some serious Alternate Reality World to live and breath in.

I would think the answer would be why developers make Fun games instead of Worlds.

Game Developers are there to make money, to get pay for their services, they aren't there to create worlds to live in by the few. They are there to entertain the Many.

Its the balance of Fun and Seriousness that Game Developers have to create. And currently its leaning more toward the Fun ( Casual Play) Methods. Because that is the Many and we are the Few.

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  BadSpock

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7750

Logic be damned!

8/22/13 9:04:39 AM#88

The age of the marathon 12+ hour gaming session is past.

You still can, of course, if you have the time, but the difference is that the games are no longer designed with that play style in mind.

They are designed for the 20-60 minute window player.

It's not a focus on fun or a focus on not-fun - it's a shift towards accessibility and shorter individual play sessions.

Bite sized gaming.

How "hardcore" or "casual" that play session is, no matter how long it is, is dependent upon the game itself and how the player chooses to play.

I can play a very, very hardcore session of PvE grinding or PvP etc. for an hour, or casually play for hours on end.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Oberholzer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/25/06
Posts: 501

8/22/13 9:05:39 AM#89
OP the problem is fun is so subjective. I have no problem with things not being handed to people and longer leveling experiences but the road there should be diverse and interesting. I enjoy groups but I've done the "grind mobs endlessly" thing and while initially when it was new it was fun it got boring. I don't know why people seemed like it was some sort of badge of honor standing at a camp for 18 hours killing the same crap over and over. "I just leveled, camped at minotaurs for 12 hours!" Is that really fun?
  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5281

8/22/13 9:08:15 AM#90
Originally posted by Lucioon

I think your question should have been, Do MMO Players want Fun or some serious Alternate Reality World to live and breath in.

I would think the answer would be why developers make Fun games instead of Worlds.

Game Developers are there to make money, to get pay for their services, they aren't there to create worlds to live in by the few. They are there to entertain the Many.

Its the balance of Fun and Seriousness that Game Developers have to create. And currently its leaning more toward the Fun ( Casual Play) Methods. Because that is the Many and we are the Few.

But can something that is just a world generate any interest for people at all? Look at Second Life, it is the things the people in that world are doing that make it exciting, make it fun.

Likewise can a MMO that is not a world hold out interest beyond end level? Frankly these ribbon "world" offerings that are nearly all we get these days don't even hold my interest until end game.

To start with, think big, open spaces, then worry about having to make a world "for the few". I would suggest that once players were allowed to roam a bit they would get to like it. Race them like hares and they will never get a taste for anything other than the course they are on.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20173

8/22/13 9:13:07 AM#91
Originally posted by BadSpock

The age of the marathon 12+ hour gaming session is past.

You still can, of course, if you have the time, but the difference is that the games are no longer designed with that play style in mind.

They are designed for the 20-60 minute window player.

It's not a focus on fun or a focus on not-fun - it's a shift towards accessibility and shorter individual play sessions.

Bite sized gaming.

Yeah.

If games all require 12 hr gaming sessions, i won't even be a gamer anymore. 20-60min is optimal. You don't have to commit to the whole evening, or have to miss the movie because of playing a game.

 

  c0exist

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/13
Posts: 188

8/22/13 9:16:57 AM#92
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BadSpock

The age of the marathon 12+ hour gaming session is past.

You still can, of course, if you have the time, but the difference is that the games are no longer designed with that play style in mind.

They are designed for the 20-60 minute window player.

It's not a focus on fun or a focus on not-fun - it's a shift towards accessibility and shorter individual play sessions.

Bite sized gaming.

Yeah.

If games all require 12 hr gaming sessions, i won't even be a gamer anymore. 20-60min is optimal. You don't have to commit to the whole evening, or have to miss the movie because of playing a game.

 

 This makes perfect sense but me personally if i cant play for at least 2-3 hours I see no reason to play at all.  I wait until I can play a good amount of time.  Cant get into a game in that short of time.  At least for me.

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

8/22/13 9:25:11 AM#93
Originally posted by c0exist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BadSpock

The age of the marathon 12+ hour gaming session is past.

You still can, of course, if you have the time, but the difference is that the games are no longer designed with that play style in mind.

They are designed for the 20-60 minute window player.

It's not a focus on fun or a focus on not-fun - it's a shift towards accessibility and shorter individual play sessions.

Bite sized gaming.

Yeah.

If games all require 12 hr gaming sessions, i won't even be a gamer anymore. 20-60min is optimal. You don't have to commit to the whole evening, or have to miss the movie because of playing a game.

 

 This makes perfect sense but me personally if i cant play for at least 2-3 hours I see no reason to play at all.  I wait until I can play a good amount of time.  Cant get into a game in that short of time.  At least for me.

And that is the reason why Developers make games for the 20 -60 minute crowd. There is more of those than the wait till I have enough time crowd.

And by focusing on the 20-60 minute crowd, they will help populate their worlds, making it a busy and full game world that hopefully will make the gamers feel like they are part of. 

The problems are that the Media makes MMORPG a bad rep, there are too many people in this world that takes it to the extreme and when they suffer the consequences of their actions, MMORPG gets the blame.  ( Players that dies from playing 20+ hours at a time, Players that loses their job for playing 7 days a week , players that steal to play another session...etc )

Thats is the reason why Game developers cater to the quick instead of the slow.

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  c0exist

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/13
Posts: 188

8/22/13 9:38:21 AM#94
Originally posted by Lucioon
Originally posted by c0exist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BadSpock

The age of the marathon 12+ hour gaming session is past.

You still can, of course, if you have the time, but the difference is that the games are no longer designed with that play style in mind.

They are designed for the 20-60 minute window player.

It's not a focus on fun or a focus on not-fun - it's a shift towards accessibility and shorter individual play sessions.

Bite sized gaming.

Yeah.

If games all require 12 hr gaming sessions, i won't even be a gamer anymore. 20-60min is optimal. You don't have to commit to the whole evening, or have to miss the movie because of playing a game.

 

 This makes perfect sense but me personally if i cant play for at least 2-3 hours I see no reason to play at all.  I wait until I can play a good amount of time.  Cant get into a game in that short of time.  At least for me.

And that is the reason why Developers make games for the 20 -60 minute crowd. There is more of those than the wait till I have enough time crowd.

And by focusing on the 20-60 minute crowd, they will help populate their worlds, making it a busy and full game world that hopefully will make the gamers feel like they are part of. 

The problems are that the Media makes MMORPG a bad rep, there are too many people in this world that takes it to the extreme and when they suffer the consequences of their actions, MMORPG gets the blame.  ( Players that dies from playing 20+ hours at a time, Players that loses their job for playing 7 days a week , players that steal to play another session...etc )

Thats is the reason why Game developers cater to the quick instead of the slow.

 These arent sports titles or a quick session of mortal combat.  These are deep games If you dont have the time to play them (which I have much less than I used to) Then you shouldnt be playing them at all.  The genre has changed so much, its like me asking EA to completely revamp their sports titles.  No more scores in your games (taking out levels and classes) No more having to play a full season to get that trophy (reduced gameplay time to get to max level) No more All pro mode for difficulty (Reduced difficulty).  At this point it is not the same game, same goes for the current mmorpg.

  eddieg50

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/22/05
Posts: 1488

8/22/13 9:45:54 AM#95
"To much fun, that's news to me, to much fun, there must be, a whole lot of things that I haven't done, I aint never had to much fun"        What is the World coming to, we are lamenting for the days when we did not have fun? The best games for me have a hook in them that makes it fun like TOR with its great story and cut scenes, ditto Secret World, Tera with its great combat overcoming its lack luster quests-ditto AOC, Shadowbane with its great PvP and suspense despite not having any quests at all. Vanguard with its Diplomacy and crafting, despite its bugs and lag.   Games without fun?-just endless grinding-NO THANKS!
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20173

8/22/13 9:47:19 AM#96
Originally posted by c0exist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BadSpock

The age of the marathon 12+ hour gaming session is past.

You still can, of course, if you have the time, but the difference is that the games are no longer designed with that play style in mind.

They are designed for the 20-60 minute window player.

It's not a focus on fun or a focus on not-fun - it's a shift towards accessibility and shorter individual play sessions.

Bite sized gaming.

Yeah.

If games all require 12 hr gaming sessions, i won't even be a gamer anymore. 20-60min is optimal. You don't have to commit to the whole evening, or have to miss the movie because of playing a game.

 

 This makes perfect sense but me personally if i cant play for at least 2-3 hours I see no reason to play at all.  I wait until I can play a good amount of time.  Cant get into a game in that short of time.  At least for me.

Yeah .. that is you. Personally i won't even want 2-3 hours committed sessions. Long sessions on SP games are ok, because i will just pause and break it up into shorter ones.

With a family, and often other stuff to do, i don't want to be locked down even 2 hours for a game.

I can get into a game for even 15 min. Heck, i do short farming runs in D3 all the time. That is fun (for me). Jump in and kill stuff with good combat.

 

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

8/22/13 9:48:44 AM#97
Originally posted by Iselin

This again...sigh. Amazing that game players, of all people, would feel so embarrassed about having fun playing games that they have to pretend they do it for other, higher reasons.

Mind you,"fun" is a term so gigantic that it looses meaning. It's right up there with "good" or "bad" or "nice" in its meaninglessness.

A much more meaningful discussion would be something like, "I don't have fun executing the required choreography for a raid boss fight after the 23rd time or so. Do you?"

 

Spot on.

 

After the 20th time playing that Dragon Soul raid, THAT got old, boring, tiring and just plain stupid (I think Dragon Soul even surpassed the TOC raid for the worst in WoW. Icehowl could be remembered. Remembering a claw and picking the hairs off the spine of Deathwing...let's forget that).

 

Fun to me is there's something to do but race to A, then to B, then back to A in raids, and spamming more than 1 button (because almost all the other means to heal are gated or inefficient). I literally went to sleep on Deathwing's spine, so bored that I simply quit going. Pointless. Firelands before the big nerf in less than 90 days, was nice. But few wanted to raid it then, "too hard" (only 2% of the raid guilds completed it on normal before the nerf, Blizzard pushed the nerf quickly and rushed DS out before the raiders just quit in frustration).

 

Fun is not over complicated or too easy. In WoW a good example of that was the WotLK heroic dungeons and ICC. 30 minute dungeon runs; and no shared lock out on 10 and 25 man raids, so can raid 2x a week with people and could even chitchat through them (with all the running around in MoP raids, I wonder IF they can even chat!).

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1790

8/22/13 9:53:30 AM#98

"too much fun" is a next level first world problem.

 

It was bad when I heard someone say, "My plate is too small for my burrito." But now we have, "These games are too focused on fun!"

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

8/22/13 10:05:16 AM#99
Originally posted by UNATCOII
Originally posted by Iselin

This again...sigh. Amazing that game players, of all people, would feel so embarrassed about having fun playing games that they have to pretend they do it for other, higher reasons.

Mind you,"fun" is a term so gigantic that it looses meaning. It's right up there with "good" or "bad" or "nice" in its meaninglessness.

A much more meaningful discussion would be something like, "I don't have fun executing the required choreography for a raid boss fight after the 23rd time or so. Do you?"

 

Spot on.

 

After the 20th time playing that Dragon Soul raid, THAT got old, boring, tiring and just plain stupid (I think Dragon Soul even surpassed the TOC raid for the worst in WoW. Icehowl could be remembered. Remembering a claw and picking the hairs off the spine of Deathwing...let's forget that).

 

Fun to me is there's something to do but race to A, then to B, then back to A in raids, and spamming more than 1 button (because almost all the other means to heal are gated or inefficient). I literally went to sleep on Deathwing's spine, so bored that I simply quit going. Pointless. Firelands before the big nerf in less than 90 days, was nice. But few wanted to raid it then, "too hard" (only 2% of the raid guilds completed it on normal before the nerf, Blizzard pushed the nerf quickly and rushed DS out before the raiders just quit in frustration).

 

Fun is not over complicated or too easy. In WoW a good example of that was the WotLK heroic dungeons and ICC. 30 minute dungeon runs; and no shared lock out on 10 and 25 man raids, so can raid 2x a week with people and could even chitchat through them (with all the running around in MoP raids, I wonder IF they can even chat!).

Imagine an Raid Boss that has Learning Curves.

Then imagine the Forum exploded by all the other players that said its not fair that the Raid boss learns from other guilds that beaten it. Because they haven't beaten it yet.

Then imagine the Forum exploded again from all the players that threaten to quit because its too hard.

Then the following threats and anger threads on the forum, Petitions for the developers to go back to the original easy to farm Raids.

Then after a few more months, after everyone beaten it 23 times, the complaints and angers that the Raids are too Easy, that it can be beaten in their sleep.

That is the current gamer mentality, when its too hard complain, when it gets easier, complain. When it gets too easy complain. When its normal, Complain its not too Hardcore enough, or not casual enough.

Guess what, there is no way to please everyone.

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3180

8/22/13 10:07:30 AM#100
Originally posted by Quizzical

As opposed to what?  People who play games because it makes them miserable?  Why would any reasonable person do that?

Of course games should be fun.  The hard part is figuring out what exactly people will think is fun and what they won't.

Gamers aren't reasonable hehe :)

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