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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are MMOs focusing too much on FUN?

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  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5244

8/21/13 9:56:54 AM#61

Well in response to those posts on "fun":

Picard: I would question the idea that there were no doctors, fireman etc playing MMO's back in the day of EQ and DAOC. I found that idea rather odd, who do you think were playing, just students? I do believe the MMO genre changed as those who were not as ardent gamers were drawn into online gaming. At the same time solo gamers also had a bigger impact on the genre's gameplay.

I am not arguing for a return to the old huge time sink days, just the recognition that we have gone too far the other way to instant gratification. There is a balance in there somewhere, it will not be the same for us all but it does not have to be twenty days play to get a level or twenty minutes play to get a level.

Axehilt: Indeed, I think gratification needs to be sated in the short and long term. This is a tricky one, are players going to put up with new titles and the like while leveling takes longer? But if you don't have more than one carrot, the rabbit is going to finish the race really fast.

Lizard bones: I was over simplifying the issue. The gaming studios are not the big bad guy here. To a certain extent we got what we paid for.  I do think "fun" is the main emphasis of MMOs for the past few years now though. Check out the dev and producer interviews on this site they always get that buzzword in. When you can buy most of the rewards in a cash shop, they just are not as important. You mention how SWTOR did not hit the right note. For me the Space Mini game was an exercise in how not to make a MMO, they made a mini game that was solo and had no relevance to the game as a whole. Either of those issues can doom a mini game, but both together! I should point out that overall I enjoyed my time in SWTOR but long term it fell short.

Kyerlan: Same here, most of the players I knew when I started MMO's had jobs, they still do and now have even more responsibilities yet still find time to play MMOs the old way. Most of us don't put in as many hours, but most have also not jumped to easyMMO's.  Having said that most of our MMO's have become easier like it or not.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/21/13 10:00:05 AM#62
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

So soldiers are having massive fun in combat situations where they kill other people? Got you, something to report to major news channels "Soldiers have fun killing".

Nice strawman. Congrats.

I wasn't aware that being a soldier was an entertainment activity.

You stated An adrenaline rush delivers pleasure, and therefore is fun. Soldiers do experience adrenaline rushes in combat situations, and according to you adrenaline rush delivers pleasure and therefore it is fun.

 

An alternative explanation to why adrenaline junkies want adrenaline rushes: they simply prefer the state in which they feel adrenaline rushes or at the very least they think they prefer that state. A person can prefer something over something else for other reasons than "this gives me pleasure while this does not give me pleasure". 

It may be as simple as: they think the normal day life is too monotonous and they wish to feel something; not necessarely something that gives them pleasure, but at least something that isn't the same as usual. Which can explain why certain people choose to inflict pain to themselves.

 

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/21/13 10:04:07 AM#63

Another concept of interest: the act of doing something you actually strongly dislike doing, just to feel the state of "relief" when it is done. 

It is probably not too uncommon among MMORPG players in grindy repetitive games. 

 

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3484

8/21/13 10:05:09 AM#64
Originally posted by Loktofeit

 "Are MMOs focusing too much on FUN?"

This thread's title, combined with the fact that it was a serious post and not trolling, is a shining beacon, illuminating everything that is wrong with the massive pocket of crazy that goes on within these forum's digital walls. 

 

That made me lol and sad at the same time :p

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2755

There... are... four... lights!

8/21/13 10:07:22 AM#65
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

So soldiers are having massive fun in combat situations where they kill other people? Got you, something to report to major news channels "Soldiers have fun killing".

Nice strawman. Congrats.

I wasn't aware that being a soldier was an entertainment activity.

You stated An adrenaline rush delivers pleasure, and therefore is fun. Soldiers do experience adrenaline rushes in combat situations, and according to you adrenaline rush delivers pleasure and therefore it is fun.

 

An alternative explanation to why adrenaline junkies want adrenaline rushes: they simply prefer the state in which they feel adrenaline rushes or at the very least they think they prefer that state. A person can prefer something over something else for other reasons than "this gives me pleasure while this does not give me pleasure". 

It may be as simple as: they think the normal day life is too monotonous and they wish to feel something; not necessarely something that gives them pleasure, but at least something that isn't the same as usual. Which can explain why certain people choose to inflict pain to themselves.

You would not make more sense if you compared playing some FPS game to being a soldier.

Billions of people play FPS games every day, having fun killing other people... virtually. And that's the keyword. Very few people (compared to the total planet population) really enjoy killing others for real, and thankfully so.

You got entangled in your own argument, and are desperately struggling to try to still not go out as being the one who was wrong. Lemme give you a hint: it's too late for that.

I suggest you a read though since you are a dictionary addict... look up the definition of two words: "consensual" and "virtual". Hopefully you'll understand what I mean.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7238

8/21/13 10:12:37 AM#66
Like someone sad above there is a difference between flying a model airplane and building one.

Things that are rewarding are not fun all the time. They can be frustrating. Give me the reward after I climb the mountain.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19724

8/21/13 10:16:49 AM#67
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
 

So because mainstream entertainment industry has marketed one type of entertainment heavily, we should pretend that niche versions do not exist?

 

No. But we should recognize what is niche, and most AAA development will not be in the niche areas.

 

  SkylightFortress

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/13
Posts: 34

8/21/13 10:17:44 AM#68

I don't think you mean fun, I think you mean less social. MMO's today seem to be online single player games. Even in final fantasy arr beta I found little reason to actually talk to anybody. Guild wars 2 same thing, you don't need to comuinicate and working together feels like working with extremely smart AI instead of human beings. I had not most fun in wow when I was raiding with my guild, we actually had to talk to each other to complete most fights. In final fantasy 11 you had to talk to people or you would never level up, or get anything done. 

Mmo's should still be made as fun as possible, but need to be more social, and less single player-ish, is what I think. 

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/21/13 10:23:56 AM#69
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

So soldiers are having massive fun in combat situations where they kill other people? Got you, something to report to major news channels "Soldiers have fun killing".

Nice strawman. Congrats.

I wasn't aware that being a soldier was an entertainment activity.

You stated An adrenaline rush delivers pleasure, and therefore is fun. Soldiers do experience adrenaline rushes in combat situations, and according to you adrenaline rush delivers pleasure and therefore it is fun.

 

An alternative explanation to why adrenaline junkies want adrenaline rushes: they simply prefer the state in which they feel adrenaline rushes or at the very least they think they prefer that state. A person can prefer something over something else for other reasons than "this gives me pleasure while this does not give me pleasure". 

It may be as simple as: they think the normal day life is too monotonous and they wish to feel something; not necessarely something that gives them pleasure, but at least something that isn't the same as usual. Which can explain why certain people choose to inflict pain to themselves.

You would not make more sense if you compared playing some FPS game to being a soldier.

Billions of people play FPS games every day, having fun killing other people... virtually. And that's the keyword. Very few people (compared to the total planet population) really enjoy killing others for real, and thankfully so.

You got entangled in your own argument, and are desperately struggling to try to still not go out as being the one who was wrong. Lemme give you a hint: it's too late for that.

I suggest you a read though since you are a dictionary addict... look up the definition of two words: "consensual" and "virtual". Hopefully you'll understand what I mean.

Yes, keep attempting to attack your perceived notions about my intentions.

 

People can have fun playing FPS games for sure, but that doesn't mean that everyone is playing them for fun. That's a reason for why the connection between adrenaline and fun is of importance. Evidently it is not certain that an adrenaline rush is fun per se; a case of interest to investigate if one were to claim so is the case where soldiers in combat situations have adrenaline rushes.

Furthermore games per se are not restricted to videogames or even contemporary videogames. One can analyze the abstract concept of a "game" without letting yourself be chained by any practical implementation of that concept. In other forms of cultural work, other forms of games have been investigated.

A "game" does not need to be without real life consequences. 

 

Something that is "consensual" does not need to be beneficial for both parties. 

 

 

 

 

 

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/21/13 10:30:21 AM#70
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
 

So because mainstream entertainment industry has marketed one type of entertainment heavily, we should pretend that niche versions do not exist?

 

No. But we should recognize what is niche, and most AAA development will not be in the niche areas.

 

Boring grind that eventually leads to you feeling relief later on when you finish it, seems to be a non-fun mechanism that AAA development use. However, I do think I remember your viewpoint on it, that they should stop trying to make long-term games and instead focus on doing games that are fun for a few weeks. (An opinion that I am not sure if I agree with; since I do not know what option would create a more diverse MMORPG genre)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19724

8/21/13 10:45:08 AM#71
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
 

So because mainstream entertainment industry has marketed one type of entertainment heavily, we should pretend that niche versions do not exist?

 

No. But we should recognize what is niche, and most AAA development will not be in the niche areas.

 

Boring grind that eventually leads to you feeling relief later on when you finish it, seems to be a non-fun mechanism that AAA development use. However, I do think I remember your viewpoint on it, that they should stop trying to make long-term games and instead focus on doing games that are fun for a few weeks. (An opinion that I am not sure if I agree with; since I do not know what option would create a more diverse MMORPG genre)

The bottomline is games need to be fun. I don't play anything non-fun grind.

Now if a game has good combat and farming is fun, i will play (like D3) a while. Otherwise, i may just finish the content and leave.

Oh .. hopping around shorter games certainly means more diverse experiences.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/21/13 2:19:40 PM#72
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Sure all "fun" is "gratification",  but all gratification is not "fun". For instance, if you were put in a game a la Battle Royale, how much fun would you actually feel? Practically none at all, given that the game has a deadly outcome (as in real life death) for every participant except the winner. 

Sure if you win small encounters, you can feel temporary gratification over the fact that you survived that encounter, but would you think it was fun? Most people wouldn't. 

"Gratification" is perhaps wrong word to use, perhaps the better word is "relief", which is appropriate in a hell lot of  boring grindy MMORPGs; the reflief over that all annoying "work" is over.

 

I guess I'm a bit confused as to what usage of gratify doesn't involve a rewarding or satisfying feeling.  Gratification is by definition pleasing.

So hardly anyone would find Battle Royale remotely gratifying.  Mostly they'd consider it morbid torture.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/21/13 2:40:20 PM#73
Originally posted by Scot

Axehilt: Indeed, I think gratification needs to be sated in the short and long term. This is a tricky one, are players going to put up with new titles and the like while leveling takes longer? But if you don't have more than one carrot, the rabbit is going to finish the race really fast.

Why are you saying leveling needs to take longer?  While I can see a game managing to be short-term gratifying even with slower leveling, fast leveling provides some pretty clear functions in modern MMORPGs and without a strong reason to change it such a change would be pretty arbitrary.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19724

8/21/13 2:56:53 PM#74
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Scot

Axehilt: Indeed, I think gratification needs to be sated in the short and long term. This is a tricky one, are players going to put up with new titles and the like while leveling takes longer? But if you don't have more than one carrot, the rabbit is going to finish the race really fast.

Why are you saying leveling needs to take longer?  While I can see a game managing to be short-term gratifying even with slower leveling, fast leveling provides some pretty clear functions in modern MMORPGs and without a strong reason to change it such a change would be pretty arbitrary.

And what is wrong with "the rabbit finishing the race pretty fast"? Just give the rabbit another race. Or something else to do.

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/21/13 9:04:42 PM#75
Originally posted by nariusseldon

And what is wrong with "the rabbit finishing the race pretty fast"? Just give the rabbit another race. Or something else to do. 

Nothing is "wrong" with that, it's just inferior (for developers and players) to a game where you want to stick with things far longer.  In the most extreme cases (comparing a quick-burn game with WOW) it's dramatically inferior.

A game players are willing to stay with long-term represents a higher quality game.

  n2sooners

Novice Member

Joined: 10/29/03
Posts: 926

8/21/13 9:14:51 PM#76
Today's games are like Prozac. They take out all the lows which in turn, does away with the highs. They are like a mountain range without valleys. I remember working hard for a long period of time to get a piece of quest armor and it felt like a real reward. Now days you can log in and do a bunch of quests in one night with each giving you a piece of armor or a weapon. I haven't played an MMO for very long in a while. I can find more challenge in games on my phone.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/21/13 9:52:53 PM#77
Originally posted by n2sooners
Today's games are like Prozac. They take out all the lows which in turn, does away with the highs. They are like a mountain range without valleys. I remember working hard for a long period of time to get a piece of quest armor and it felt like a real reward. Now days you can log in and do a bunch of quests in one night with each giving you a piece of armor or a weapon. I haven't played an MMO for very long in a while. I can find more challenge in games on my phone.

Sounds like you had a full set of best-in-slot gear, attained from the hardest bosses, in every recent MMORPG.

That's damn impressive!

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/21/13 10:15:08 PM#78
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Boring grind that eventually leads to you feeling relief later on when you finish it

Imagine the even greater relief of deciding not to pound your face with the brick at all next time. Sure, it's a relief when you stop doing it. But you can take the short cut and just...not do it in the first place.

 

"From your birth until your final breath
I'm proud to say you finally entertained yourself to death" -A. Cooper

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3793

8/21/13 10:33:32 PM#79

This again...sigh. Amazing that game players, of all people, would feel so embarrassed about having fun playing games that they have to pretend they do it for other, higher reasons.

Mind you,"fun" is a term so gigantic that it looses meaning. It's right up there with "good" or "bad" or "nice" in its meaninglessness.

A much more meaningful discussion would be something like, "I don't have fun executing the required choreography for a raid boss fight after the 23rd time or so. Do you?"

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19724

8/22/13 1:31:37 AM#80
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by nariusseldon

And what is wrong with "the rabbit finishing the race pretty fast"? Just give the rabbit another race. Or something else to do. 

Nothing is "wrong" with that, it's just inferior (for developers and players) to a game where you want to stick with things far longer.  In the most extreme cases (comparing a quick-burn game with WOW) it's dramatically inferior.

A game players are willing to stay with long-term represents a higher quality game.

Ah ... and i don't  care to stick with things longer. Bring the rabbit race on!

I will only play a game longer if it is naturally fun. There is no need to prolong my involvement in a game just because.

 

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