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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are MMOs focusing too much on FUN?

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  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1162

8/21/13 5:59:51 AM#41
The problem is these devs idea of fun seems to equil: generic wow-clone mmorpg with nothing special about it, just same onrails boring quest hub to quest hub gameplay. Last mmo I actually had fun with was city of heroes, these mmorpgs today? I tend to get bored after the first few days simply because all you do is just go from quest hub to quest hub on rails till level cap. I dunno I just don't find it fun at all, nor do I find generic combat systems all that great either. I find the whole tab targeting rotation crap boring as hell. I much prefer combat like Tera or the upcoming wildstar where you actually have to aim and you can dodge by just moving out of the way, it adds something to do other than: yawn 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,tab,1,2,3. In ff14 for example I don't even watch my screen in some of the fights since I know that enemy can't kill me, and i know I just need to spam 1->2->1->2 over and over to kill it.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/21/13 6:29:35 AM#42
Originally posted by Zzad

Why would anybody play a game if it isn´t for fun?

uh?  -.-

To be entertained. That's why  some people like horror movies: they aren't "fun" per se, but they can be entertaining.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2764

There... are... four... lights!

8/21/13 6:53:36 AM#43
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Zzad

Why would anybody play a game if it isn´t for fun?

uh?  -.-

To be entertained. That's why  some people like horror movies: they aren't "fun" per se, but they can be entertaining.

That doesn't make much sense. People watch horror movies because they have fun doing so.

The very idea of entertainment is having fun, provide pleasure.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5244

8/21/13 6:59:21 AM#44

This use of the word "fun" is misleading. What we are talking about is the variable length we take to enjoy a part of a MMO. "Fun" is being used to mask instant gratification, that's what MMO's are all about today.

Any gaming system that is enjoyable but takes time is not "fun". This partly because gaming studios have gone for a quick fun fix model, so the idea that "fun" = something that is always quick has become ingrained. It was not always like that and I should not have to tell posters that the longer and harder it is to achieve something the greater a sense of achievement you will receive.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2764

There... are... four... lights!

8/21/13 7:19:08 AM#45
Originally posted by Scot

This use of the word "fun" is misleading. What we are talking about is the variable length we take to enjoy a part of a MMO. "Fun" is being used to mask instant gratification, that's what MMO's are all about today.

Any gaming system that is enjoyable but takes time is not "fun". This partly because gaming studios have gone for a quick fun fix model, so the idea that "fun" = something that is always quick has become ingrained. It was not always like that and I should not have to tell posters that the longer and harder it is to achieve something the greater a sense of achievement you will receive.

Do you know that many of those MMORPG players introduced to the genre since Internet became available to a larger public than just a few "computer tech nerds" are doctors, firemen, army vets, policemen, etc... aka people who save REAL lifes on a daily basis. Or even just company managers who run a successful business allowing hundreds of people to feed their families. Or just a simple married couple working hard to provide the best for their children. People whose whole life doesn't revolve around a computer.

Those people do not need the fake virtual achievements from video games. They have achieved enough things in "real life". When they log into a game, they want to have fun, and they don't want to have to go through endless tedious mechanics to finally reach the fun part of the game.

And those people are now the vast majority of MMO players. Normal people, not "tech nerds" anymore. And those people pay for those games to be possible.

 

Let's be honest... I was there, UO, EQ, AC1. Great games back then, there was no other choice anyway for us "tech nerds"... but those games all had hideous time sinks, awful grinds, useless tedious mechanics. I must be one of the rare "vets" not wearing those rose colored glasses, I guess.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/21/13 8:18:25 AM#46
Originally posted by Scot

This use of the word "fun" is misleading. What we are talking about is the variable length we take to enjoy a part of a MMO. "Fun" is being used to mask instant gratification, that's what MMO's are all about today.

Any gaming system that is enjoyable but takes time is not "fun". This partly because gaming studios have gone for a quick fun fix model, so the idea that "fun" = something that is always quick has become ingrained. It was not always like that and I should not have to tell posters that the longer and harder it is to achieve something the greater a sense of achievement you will receive.

Fun is gratification. The point of games is fun.

Obviously it's better if games are also gratifying long-term, but at a minimum they must be gratifying in the short term.  You must be able to log on and do plenty of fun things.

A game gains nothing by putting some Minimum Time Limit on fun (eg "You must play at least 30 minutes to start having fun.")

 

  Sythion

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/11
Posts: 427

8/21/13 8:32:07 AM#47

If nothing else, this thread illustrates the psychographics of some mmo players.

A lot of the old school "hardcore" (I think that term is not accurate at all). Do not want to enjoy themselves while plating a game. They are often looking to feel holes in their life in either their lack of friendships (casual or deep, depending on extraversion or introversion), or the extremely important human need to feel productive in a meaningful way.

 

I can respect that. However if that makes you feel like you are somehow better than the rest of us, then you get my pity for your self-esteem issues instead.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

8/21/13 8:49:35 AM#48


Originally posted by Scot
This use of the word "fun" is misleading. What we are talking about is the variable length we take to enjoy a part of a MMO. "Fun" is being used to mask instant gratification, that's what MMO's are all about today.

Any gaming system that is enjoyable but takes time is not "fun". This partly because gaming studios have gone for a quick fun fix model, so the idea that "fun" = something that is always quick has become ingrained. It was not always like that and I should not have to tell posters that the longer and harder it is to achieve something the greater a sense of achievement you will receive.




It is true that the word "Fun" generally means something that is quickly enjoyed and probably not serious.

Flying model airplanes is "fun". Building model airplanes that can fly isn't necessarily "fun", but it's rewarding and enjoyable.

I don't think you're right about all MMORPG studios though. It's too easy to blame them for producing a product that actually fits the market they are selling to. It's also too simple to assume that all they want to do is sell a product. They are trying to have a bunch of "Fun" things, that put together make one big "Rewarding" thing. Kind of like Skyrim or Fallout 3. Bunch of little, fun things put together that make one big rewarding adventure. That doesn't mean they all get it right. WoW in particular seems to be made up of either short, fun things, or boring but rewarding things. I think SWToR attempted to have a combination of short fun things that made up a rewarding thing, but I think they missed the mark. Too much WoWness.

I really hate ADD. I forgot why I was typing this.

Oh.

It's taking awhile for MMORPGs to figure out how things work. Maybe they'll capture that Fun & Rewarding thing, maybe not, but I don't think they are just trying to be "Fun".

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19075

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

8/21/13 8:51:38 AM#49
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Scot.

Do you know that many of those MMORPG players introduced to the genre since Internet became available to a larger public than just a few "computer tech nerds" are doctors, firemen, army vets, policemen, etc... aka people who save REAL lifes on a daily basis. Or even just company managers who run a successful business allowing hundreds of people to feed their families. Or just a simple married couple working hard to provide the best for their children. People whose whole life doesn't revolve around a computer.

Those people do not need the fake virtual achievements from video games. They have achieved enough things in "real life". When they log into a game, they want to have fun, and they don't want to have to go through endless tedious mechanics to finally reach the fun part of the game.

And those people are now the vast majority of MMO players. Normal people, not "tech nerds" anymore. And those people pay for those games to be possible.

 Let's be honest... I was there, UO, EQ, AC1. Great games back then, there was no other choice anyway for us "tech nerds"... but those games all had hideous time sinks, awful grinds, useless tedious mechanics. I must be one of the rare "vets" not wearing those rose colored glasses, I guess.

Funny thing about this, my guild of over 10 years is playing a version of DAOC that has be "set" to around early 2003 is intentionally full of those "hideous time sinks, awful grinds, useless tedious mechanics" however we call that "game play" and enjoy it.  One man's trash is another man's treasure.  Face it, you never enjoyed MMO's in those early days, has nothing with the rest of us wearing rose colored glasses, we clearly know what we like both then and now.

And like you said, our occupations literally include Pediatrician, Nurse, Lawyers (2), Finance VP, Mortgage Officer, Business Owner, Venture Capitalist, and oh yes, a housewife and student or two.  In many cases they have children ranging from 1 to teenagers, and yet some how, some way we all find time in our busy schedules to play MMO's designed the "old school way".

And no, we're not no lifers, we own boats, go on vacations, tend to our families and friends, so I guess I'm trying to say games do not need to be designed casually to be played by casual players, my guild is living proof of that.

At the end of the day it comes down to what sort of game play mechanics you favor, what you don't care for I really enjoy (but then again, I think EVE is a great game, shows you where my tastes lie) and have no problem making time for and really has nothing to do with what sort of lifestyle "today's" gamer leads.

 

Arrogant, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19753

8/21/13 8:51:42 AM#50
Originally posted by Sythion

If nothing else, this thread illustrates the psychographics of some mmo players.

A lot of the old school "hardcore" (I think that term is not accurate at all). Do not want to enjoy themselves while plating a game. They are often looking to feel holes in their life in either their lack of friendships (casual or deep, depending on extraversion or introversion), or the extremely important human need to feel productive in a meaningful way.

 

I can respect that. However if that makes you feel like you are somehow better than the rest of us, then you get my pity for your self-esteem issues instead.

Yeah ... but i don't respect that. I find it sad.

I play games for fun, not to have another life. If MMOs are not fun, i am out of there faster than a speeding bullet.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2764

There... are... four... lights!

8/21/13 9:00:08 AM#51
Originally posted by Kyleran

Face it, you never enjoyed MMO's in those early days, has nothing with the rest of us wearing rose colored glasses, we clearly know what we like both then and now.

Gotta love that kind of assumptions. I'm part of those "tech nerds" who actually enjoyed those games a lot.

DAoC is MILD compared to some time wasting mechanics you had in earlier game, most notably EQ and AC1. Using DAoC as example of "old school hardcore not based on fun game" is a bad idea. DAoC is, to put it bluntly and use a language most here use and understand, one of the first "carebear easy mode" games.

For instance, you do not know tedium until you crafted a stock of elemental arrows in AC1 without external tools (which came later). I played that game for 6 years. The game had great parts mostly, which explains why I played and enjoyed it so long, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed the tedious parts, which you had to go through to get to the fun parts. As I said, I left my rose colored glasses somewhere on a bench, that must have been back in 2002 or 2003 or something like that.

EDIT:

Please understand me, I have nothing against "tech nerds", I'm one myself. I spend most of my time seated in front of a computer, first for my job (software engineer), and then for my hobby (playing MMOs). Nothing wrong with that, everyone does what he wants with his life as long as it doesn't harm other people. But I totally understand that the vast majority of gamers, those we use to call "casuals", have better things to do than to spend hours in a game before getting to the "fun" parts. For people like you and me, or your 10 years old guild, and mine which started back in UO and AC1, playing MMOs is a hobby. But for that new majority out there, it's just one leisure activity among others.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/21/13 9:18:09 AM#52
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Zzad

Why would anybody play a game if it isn´t for fun?

uh?  -.-

To be entertained. That's why  some people like horror movies: they aren't "fun" per se, but they can be entertaining.

That doesn't make much sense. People watch horror movies because they have fun doing so.

The very idea of entertainment is having fun, provide pleasure.

I disagree. The idea of entertainment  is to keep someone "occupied". 

 

From dictionary.com:

Word Origin & History


entertain 

late 15c., "to keep up, maintain," from M.Fr. entretenir, from O.Fr.entretenir "hold together, support," from entre- "among" (from L.inter) + tenir "to hold" (from L. tenere; see tenet). Sense of "have aguest" is late 15c.; that of "amuse" is 1620s.

 

It is for that reason that activities which people do to be scared (which is definitely not "fun", or at least not when it happens) can be seen as entertainment. Analogously activities whose main objective is to simply raise your adrenaline, can also be seen as entertainment. 

 

 

 

 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2764

There... are... four... lights!

8/21/13 9:21:42 AM#53

I was wondering if someone would come up with a totally obsolete version of the definition of "entertainment" dating from several centuries ago. Well, looks like we got it. What "entertainment", and more generally "entertainment industry" means nowadays is pretty obvious and something accepted by most people.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/21/13 9:26:55 AM#54
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Scot

This use of the word "fun" is misleading. What we are talking about is the variable length we take to enjoy a part of a MMO. "Fun" is being used to mask instant gratification, that's what MMO's are all about today.

Any gaming system that is enjoyable but takes time is not "fun". This partly because gaming studios have gone for a quick fun fix model, so the idea that "fun" = something that is always quick has become ingrained. It was not always like that and I should not have to tell posters that the longer and harder it is to achieve something the greater a sense of achievement you will receive.

Fun is gratification. The point of games is fun.

Obviously it's better if games are also gratifying long-term, but at a minimum they must be gratifying in the short term.  You must be able to log on and do plenty of fun things.

A game gains nothing by putting some Minimum Time Limit on fun (eg "You must play at least 30 minutes to start having fun.")

 

Sure all "fun" is "gratification",  but all gratification is not "fun". For instance, if you were put in a game a la Battle Royale, how much fun would you actually feel? Practically none at all, given that the game has a deadly outcome (as in real life death) for every participant except the winner. 

Sure if you win small encounters, you can feel temporary gratification over the fact that you survived that encounter, but would you think it was fun? Most people wouldn't. 

"Gratification" is perhaps wrong word to use, perhaps the better word is "relief", which is appropriate in a hell lot of  boring grindy MMORPGs; the reflief over that all annoying "work" is over.

 

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/21/13 9:29:18 AM#55
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I was wondering if someone would come up with a totally obsolete version of the definition of "entertainment" dating from several centuries ago. Well, looks like we got it. What "entertainment", and more generally "entertainment industry" means nowadays is pretty obvious and something accepted by most people.

So because mainstream entertainment industry has marketed one type of entertainment heavily, we should pretend that niche versions do not exist?

Furthermore, the "adrenaline" version of entertainment is very much alive and lucrative. 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2764

There... are... four... lights!

8/21/13 9:33:46 AM#56
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I was wondering if someone would come up with a totally obsolete version of the definition of "entertainment" dating from several centuries ago. Well, looks like we got it. What "entertainment", and more generally "entertainment industry" means nowadays is pretty obvious and something accepted by most people.

So because mainstream entertainment industry has marketed one type of entertainment heavily, we should pretend that niche versions do not exist?

Furthermore, the "adrenaline" version of entertainment is very much alive and lucrative. 

And what makes you think that an "adrenaline" rush is not fun? Billions of people who do the extreme attractions in theme parks or have an extreme sport as hobby disagree with you.

And all those are "instant gratification" too. It doesn't take much effort to go to a theme park, or to bungee jump, or to practice parachute diving. All you have is a minimal training before you get to the real thing. You don't have to grind 50 levels with like 50 hours per level before you can do it.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/21/13 9:37:37 AM#57
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I was wondering if someone would come up with a totally obsolete version of the definition of "entertainment" dating from several centuries ago. Well, looks like we got it. What "entertainment", and more generally "entertainment industry" means nowadays is pretty obvious and something accepted by most people.

So because mainstream entertainment industry has marketed one type of entertainment heavily, we should pretend that niche versions do not exist?

Furthermore, the "adrenaline" version of entertainment is very much alive and lucrative. 

And what makes you think that an "adrenaline" rush is not fun? Billions of people who do the extreme attractions in theme parks or have an extreme sport as hobby disagree with you.

And all those are "instant gratification" too. It doesn't take much effort to go to a theme park, or to bungee jump, or to practice sky diving.

There is a difference between doing it for the adrenaline kick and doing it for fun. Remove the adrenaline and we'll see if people are continueing to do it.

 

The term "adrenaline junkie" exists for a reason.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2764

There... are... four... lights!

8/21/13 9:41:06 AM#58
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I was wondering if someone would come up with a totally obsolete version of the definition of "entertainment" dating from several centuries ago. Well, looks like we got it. What "entertainment", and more generally "entertainment industry" means nowadays is pretty obvious and something accepted by most people.

So because mainstream entertainment industry has marketed one type of entertainment heavily, we should pretend that niche versions do not exist?

Furthermore, the "adrenaline" version of entertainment is very much alive and lucrative. 

And what makes you think that an "adrenaline" rush is not fun? Billions of people who do the extreme attractions in theme parks or have an extreme sport as hobby disagree with you.

And all those are "instant gratification" too. It doesn't take much effort to go to a theme park, or to bungee jump, or to practice sky diving.

There is a difference between doing it for the adrenaline kick and doing it for fun. Remove the adrenaline and we'll see if people are continueing to do it.

 

The term "adrenaline junkie" exists for a reason.

Mhh have you even thought a bit before you posted that?

You made my point. An adrenaline rush delivers pleasure, and therefore is fun. Exactly what I said.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/21/13 9:44:46 AM#59
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I was wondering if someone would come up with a totally obsolete version of the definition of "entertainment" dating from several centuries ago. Well, looks like we got it. What "entertainment", and more generally "entertainment industry" means nowadays is pretty obvious and something accepted by most people.

So because mainstream entertainment industry has marketed one type of entertainment heavily, we should pretend that niche versions do not exist?

Furthermore, the "adrenaline" version of entertainment is very much alive and lucrative. 

And what makes you think that an "adrenaline" rush is not fun? Billions of people who do the extreme attractions in theme parks or have an extreme sport as hobby disagree with you.

And all those are "instant gratification" too. It doesn't take much effort to go to a theme park, or to bungee jump, or to practice sky diving.

There is a difference between doing it for the adrenaline kick and doing it for fun. Remove the adrenaline and we'll see if people are continueing to do it.

 

The term "adrenaline junkie" exists for a reason.

Mhh have you even thought a bit before you posted that?

You made my point. An adrenaline rush delivers pleasure, and therefore is fun. Exactly what I said.

So soldiers are having massive fun in combat situations where they kill other people? Got you, something to report to major news channels "Soldiers have fun killing".

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2764

There... are... four... lights!

8/21/13 9:49:57 AM#60
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

So soldiers are having massive fun in combat situations where they kill other people? Got you, something to report to major news channels "Soldiers have fun killing".

Nice strawman. Congrats.

I wasn't aware that being a soldier was an entertainment activity.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

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