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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are MMOs focusing too much on FUN?

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449 posts found
  TheHavok

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/04
Posts: 2408

"Free crack and everybody gets laid."

8/20/13 7:46:08 PM#21

OP reminds me of this dude. 

'Back in my day, video games weren't fun!  And that's the way we liked it!'

Maybe I should add a grumpy cat pic too.

  worldalpha

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/11
Posts: 401

Working hard on WorldAlpha

8/20/13 7:53:05 PM#22
MMOs need to be more drab and dreary, instead of being all the FUN stuff.

Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  Gorwe

Elite Member

Joined: 9/16/11
Posts: 1678

8/20/13 7:57:38 PM#23
I would actually say it's quite opposite!

Compared to Vanilla WoW/GW 1/Vanguard and such recreations of classics, all the modern games seem VERY shallow, drab and boring. Of course not all, but most. I think that they are focusing WAY too much on sth that MIGHT make SOMEONE Happy/have fun, but it sure as hell is not entertaining to me. I don't want to play the games whose whole game design was made on the calculator(or excel-take your pick! :P).

Plus fun is subjective. The whole Warcraft universe is boring and senseless to me, while I find Warhammer awesome. To someone else, the inverse might be true(however twisted that may be :O). And I have nothing against that. Tastes differ eh?

Oh and OP, if you really love Vanguard so much, why aren't you playing it? I know that I am and that it is...the Matchless Dragon(a reference OMG!) for the games of today. In other words: it is fun TO ME. And I don't give 2 flying damns what someone else Might think...
  IrishChai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 506

8/20/13 7:58:19 PM#24
Originally posted by TheHavok

Maybe I should add a grumpy cat pic too.

 

LOL!

 

  Gorwe

Elite Member

Joined: 9/16/11
Posts: 1678

8/20/13 8:24:32 PM#25
Quick!

Someone better post a picture of a grumpy Dwarf as well! 10x better if from Warhammer :D

(This opportunity must not be missed!)
  Theocritus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3605

8/20/13 8:31:36 PM#26
I think they are focusing more on entertaining us than anything......When MMOs are more about voice acting, cutscenes, and "the story" than anything else then you see where the genre is headed.
  User Deleted
8/20/13 9:05:33 PM#27
I'm more concerned about the large amount of people that seemingly cannot be social or make friends without a crutch like forced grouping or the trinity. I never had a problem making friends in any of these new-fangled supposedly anti-social games.
  Alexvano

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/15/06
Posts: 14

8/20/13 9:06:05 PM#28
Although poorly worded, I see what the author is trying to say. Old MMO's were plenty of fun. What they offered that new MMO's don't offer is depth and choice. A virtual world with something called almost unlimited choices in what you wanted to do. Did you want to go to a dungeon and battle the denizens inside? Did you want to farm wood or ore for crafting into furniture, weapons, armor, or for sale? Did you want to simply explore worlds that took hours to cross and see what adventures you may experience? Did you want to tame Dragons as usable pets? Did you want to beg for money in the busiest of towns? Did you want to join a guild with common goals? Did you want to sail and look for buried treasure? Did you want to amass enough wealth for a house, shop, or castle? Did you want to become the hottest merchant around that people came to for all their needs? Did you want to be a highway robber, or did you want to hunt down the murderous scum and take their heads? You get my point, and the choices were yours to make. There wae no hand holding, no telling you this is what you HAVE to do to be successful or have fun. What is missing in todays depthless games that those old games had was choice. Breadcrumb paths take you from glowing question mark to the ten objects you need to collect at your level, or ten monsters to kill. Once done return to guy with glowing icon via breadcrumb path. Exciting huh! So much fun doing that 10 million times to be like everyone else! Best of all its so boring it has to be free as no one will pay for the garbage experience! But its free so you can't complain too much about the price. Its a perfect model for the casual gamer who can't be bothered to think and want instant gratification and "fun," and only talk to others because they are were they happen to b3le, and mostly to troll. Do you want to play a different way? Well you might have an option or two, but that is not the script, so your choices are limited severely. New content out? Yay, as you were bored with nothing to do as you killed the latest monsters 10 times and got all the newest 2% better loot to fight those newest monsters. So, the new content is out and you have to help or hurt the pandas, go to the portals with all the other players on your server and close 5 of them, or farm the newest place that gives the best money to get that loot you want that you will never have any risk of losing or actually caring about other than your character and build are optimal for your job. I think that is the longing he and other sandbox players miss, and all the community that came with it. You burned your friends and ruined your rep by being an @$$hat, well there go long time in game friendships. People who were by your side for successes and failures that created memories that you can think back on fondly. Should a game replace your real life? Never, but having fun and meaningful time in a game can be another great joy in a well lived life.
  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1169

8/20/13 9:07:05 PM#29
Have they been focusing on fun, or have the been focusing on homogenization?
  User Deleted
8/20/13 9:07:21 PM#30
Holy shit, find that enter key on your keyboard and use it.
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/20/13 9:18:36 PM#31
Originally posted by Loktofeit

 "Are MMOs focusing too much on FUN?"

This thread's title, combined with the fact that it was a serious post and not trolling, is a shining beacon, illuminating everything that is wrong with the massive pocket of crazy that goes on within these forum's digital walls. 

 

LOL, exactly!

Granted, I do think there's a genuine discussion to be had about players' social interactions and how they interact with terrible experiences.  Basically the strongest friendships happen in the worst situations, like war.  But war is a great example of how it's psychotic to imply we should intentionally seek out that hardship (intentionally create wars) just for the sake of creating strongly social bonds.

  dinams

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 1403

8/20/13 9:20:21 PM#32

Casual Play is the right word

 But lets face it, times change, the world is not the same it was on the beginning of the century, people are more closed to other people, more paranoid and more individualists

 

"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence

  Comaf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1126

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

8/20/13 9:30:37 PM#33
Originally posted by worldalpha
MMOs need to be more drab and dreary, instead of being all the FUN stuff.

I get the sarcasm, and not targetting worldalpha specifically - but since I'm here to waste time for no dev to read this, here goes:

 

It was absolutely fun, nostalgic now of course, but fun to group with people and get through quests (Asheron's Call was very fun pve).  It was even more fun for some of us who grouped with people...a lot of them, to capture relics, defend castles, run through a massive labyrinth (Darkness Falls) and defend our realm!

 

Today - it's instant battleground flag capture with a bunch of hoppity hoppity flavor of the month mirrored class race combinations pvping for E-Sport entertainment.

 

Pve has turned into a solo venture for the most part - certainly from level 1 - "end game" 

Pvp has turned into a solo venture as well, with one pointless battleground spawning after another.

 

I don't believe the mmorpg industry was meant to go down this road, but just like with everything that is good, a lot of bad pops up as well.  The genre is in the toilet these days, and folks who don't agree, ask yourself how many different mmorpgs you've sailed through in the past 5 years?

 

I've been playing Dark Age of Camelot since 2001.  I too have delved in a number of so called MMOrpgs, but compared to what I was used to, no one was going to create a 5 race 5 class (or classless tank healer dps'er class) game and paint a sign over it that read mmoRPG and fool me.  Time and time again, it's just your elf ranger killing some other elf ranger in a corn field.

 

That there is your mmorpg of today.  I'll stick with my dated graphics and lunky UI and the fact that the 3 people working at Mythic these days probably spend more time keeping the power on then doing anything else (they sure don't update the game or the Herald very often and never gave the fans something they wanted...Origins, anyone?)...because my dated swept under a rug mmo still has more RPG in one of its three realms and 44 classes and 24 races than every cartoon drawn flag capture cash shop mmorpg on the market.

  ReallyNow10

Elite Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1573

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

8/20/13 10:51:32 PM#34

There can be "too much fun".  Too much of anything mutes or lessens its impact over time.  Think of an action movie where there are too many car chases, and how, after awhile, it's "ho-hum, another car chase."

You have to ration the high points and show them in contrast to the low points to fully appreciate their impact.  Therefore, adventure should be interspersed with "maintenance" activities (i.e., returning to town to sell loot, do repairs, train, rest, practice trade crafts, socialize, barter and sell, etc...).  Because, if you have a game that is non-stop action, the action quickly becomes boring.

Interesting how some games with lots of "maintenance" activities (EVE, Minecraft) have a solid and persistent following over the more flashy action games which tend to spike and crash in short order.

  Jemcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1259

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

8/20/13 11:15:45 PM#35
Originally posted by Arclan

OP, I think you may have a point. Although may I disagree with you on Vanguard? SOE required the "funification" of Vanguard as part of the takeover. Quest hubs, no down time between fights, monty haul quest xp and loots, changing of aggro mobs to indifferent, etc., were mandated by SOE.


With its left hand, SOE rescued Vanguard from drowning and, with its right hand, they plunged a dagger deep into its heart.

 

Interesting I did not know that but I've not been a gamer for as long.  You almost scare me as I've decided to put my all bets on EQNext.

 

______

I don't think we're using the word "Fun" right here.  We're substituting it for Themepark.  Circus.  Fair.  Freak show.   Step right up, pop three balloons in a row, win a prize!   Game.  The op is just repeating we need more world and less game.  To which I'm saying we need more world that does not FORCE us to play the freak shows.  They can keep the circus, just stop making me a part of it.  Leave it as an option for those who like that kind of thing.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/21/13 1:48:42 AM#36
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

There can be "too much fun".  Too much of anything mutes or lessens its impact over time.  Think of an action movie where there are too many car chases, and how, after awhile, it's "ho-hum, another car chase."

You have to ration the high points and show them in contrast to the low points to fully appreciate their impact.  Therefore, adventure should be interspersed with "maintenance" activities (i.e., returning to town to sell loot, do repairs, train, rest, practice trade crafts, socialize, barter and sell, etc...).  Because, if you have a game that is non-stop action, the action quickly becomes boring.

Interesting how some games with lots of "maintenance" activities (EVE, Minecraft) have a solid and persistent following over the more flashy action games which tend to spike and crash in short order.

That's not really true in games (or any entertainment product.)  Better games are just better.

Mediocrity will happen anyway.  When a developer has the goal of making something amazing, they're not going to create the "perfect" game.  Some parts will be mediocre.  And even if they weren't, the rest of your life supplies ample mediocrity.

Why would mediocrity be the goal?  Why would a developer say "We want to avoid making our game too fun", when it's hard enough to create fun in the first place?  If the goal is an amazing game, mediocrity is often the result.  If the goal is mediocrity, the game would be absolutely terrible.

There are some constraints to fun, but they generally occur naturally:

  • Dopamine supply.  The brain chemicals responsible for the sensation of enjoyment in games aren't unlimited, and can run low in longer gaming sessions.
  • Pacing matters.  You can't take your favorite movie and then jam in the plots to your next 4 favorite movies, cramming them all into the same film, and expect to have any coherent plot from it.  So there is a limit to how much stuff can happen at once and how much stuff can co-exist within the same game.
    • But remember we're talking about MMORPGs, which aren't even remotely at risk of cramming players' sessions with "too much stuff".  Quite the opposite: developers cannot keep up with the demand for new content.
Neither constraint means we should want developers to aspire to mediocrity.  That's just silly.  We should want them to produce the best games possible (the games which are the most fun.)
  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3132

8/21/13 2:29:10 AM#37
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

There can be "too much fun".  Too much of anything mutes or lessens its impact over time.  Think of an action movie where there are too many car chases, and how, after awhile, it's "ho-hum, another car chase."

You have to ration the high points and show them in contrast to the low points to fully appreciate their impact.  Therefore, adventure should be interspersed with "maintenance" activities (i.e., returning to town to sell loot, do repairs, train, rest, practice trade crafts, socialize, barter and sell, etc...).  Because, if you have a game that is non-stop action, the action quickly becomes boring.

Interesting how some games with lots of "maintenance" activities (EVE, Minecraft) have a solid and persistent following over the more flashy action games which tend to spike and crash in short order.

That's not really true in games (or any entertainment product.)  Better games are just better.

Mediocrity will happen anyway.  When a developer has the goal of making something amazing, they're not going to create the "perfect" game.  Some parts will be mediocre.  And even if they weren't, the rest of your life supplies ample mediocrity.

Why would mediocrity be the goal?  Why would a developer say "We want to avoid making our game too fun", when it's hard enough to create fun in the first place?  If the goal is an amazing game, mediocrity is often the result.  If the goal is mediocrity, the game would be absolutely terrible.

There are some constraints to fun, but they generally occur naturally:

  • Dopamine supply.  The brain chemicals responsible for the sensation of enjoyment in games aren't unlimited, and can run low in longer gaming sessions.
  • Pacing matters.  You can't take your favorite movie and then jam in the plots to your next 4 favorite movies, cramming them all into the same film, and expect to have any coherent plot from it.  So there is a limit to how much stuff can happen at once and how much stuff can co-exist within the same game.
    • But remember we're talking about MMORPGs, which aren't even remotely at risk of cramming players' sessions with "too much stuff".  Quite the opposite: developers cannot keep up with the demand for new content.
Neither constraint means we should want developers to aspire to mediocrity.  That's just silly.  We should want them to produce the best games possible (the games which are the most fun.)

     I disagree..  at least from my point of view.. Today's games are nothing more then arcade style "whack a mole".. It is almost nonstop hack and slash and for me that is gets old in about 30 minutes..  Just like this morning, I logged on to GW2 and only played about that length of time.. Where is the downtime that I'm not button mashing? Is there fishing in the game? NO..  Cooking is ok, but not required.. Nothing in the form of making drinks.. And yes movies to get over done in my eyes..  There have been a number of movies in the recent years that the eye candy action turns me OFF..  It's very similar to desensitizing the brain..

  User Deleted
8/21/13 5:22:40 AM#38
Originally posted by TheScavenger

I remember old MMOs, they didn't focus on fun. There was no instances (at least in UO and Asheron's Call), no minigames (like in GW2)...they felt far more like worlds (at least the two I played back when). They didn't have a bunch of dailies, instead you just did whatever and made goals for yourself.I remember grinding for 16 hours in the same spot in Asheron's Call, and while it wasn't fun...I ended up making a lot of friends as we brought mobs back to the area. It was more of a world, more of a social experience, than what current MMOs offer.Is this why so many MMOs are failing? I know Vanguard was an attempt to not focus so much on fun (like dumb minigames and jumping puzzles, those don't belong in an MMO)...but more of a world and classic MMO experience. It is sad people didn't give it a chance, but was too buggy I guess and then updates stopped.Now, fun MMOs...sure they are fun for a month to a few months...but then it just gets boring and too unrealistic. But, old classic MMOs? While they didn't focus on fun, it was far more social. It is even proven that people stuck with the SAME MMO for years to decades, and people still play UO and AC and have for longer than most MMOs have been alive.I believe the reason for this is cause they don't do frivelous minigames, jumping puzzles, dailies and point a to b quests. But instead they bring players together to grind, socialize and be a part of the world.I think future MMOs could do really well if they took out all the "fun" (minigames and what not) and brought back the WORLD and socializing aspects of an MMO.

Sorta TLDR

(edit: to expand that thought. In new MMOs, people rush everywhere as they do minigames, puzzles, instances and quests. No chance to make friends, like in old MMOs where people stood in an area and talked as they killed stuff. Much better chances of making friends in that way, than the new way of MMOs and felt far more like a world)

now .. here is a question..... why the mmorpgs cant have both?

most mmorpgs today feel Shallow because they dont focus on the core mechanics and features that could / would make the world feel DEEP

"forced linear quest line? DONE simple combat DONE now lets publish the game"

Worlds that has stuff to do for me = Fun

Worlds that dont force a specific playstyle on me = Fun

Open storyline = Fun

 the pace that modern mmorpgs can be played through is too fast i want to see a game that has a boss so "difficult" that it takes months to prepare for the battle, gathering players, resources, Siege weaponry and then finally settling on the tactics that are used to defeat the boss

 Core mechanics should take the highest priority the other extra comes after that, like those "jumping puzzles" and mini-games lol

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/21/13 5:27:01 AM#39
Originally posted by Rydeson

     I disagree..  at least from my point of view.. Today's games are nothing more then arcade style "whack a mole".. It is almost nonstop hack and slash and for me that is gets old in about 30 minutes..  Just like this morning, I logged on to GW2 and only played about that length of time.. Where is the downtime that I'm not button mashing? Is there fishing in the game? NO..  Cooking is ok, but not required.. Nothing in the form of making drinks.. And yes movies to get over done in my eyes..  There have been a number of movies in the recent years that the eye candy action turns me OFF..  It's very similar to desensitizing the brain..

I don't quite see how that conflicts with what I said. 80% of everything is crap.  So what?  Are you really implying that because a game aimed high and (in your eyes) was mediocre that games should stop trying to create compelling, exciting games?

As for downtime, if you want it choose it.  That's the magic of games which don't force downtime on you.  Want to spend time sitting around doing nothing between fights?  You can!   Want to travel everywhere manually?  You can!   Want to take a break in town?  You can!  It's entirely up to you how much downtime you experience.

Meanwhile the game doesn't force the rest of us (who know that most of those things are shallow wastes of time) to waste our time with non-gameplay.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2605

There... are... four... lights!

8/21/13 5:47:01 AM#40
The opposite question would be "Are some MMORPG players so serious about their hobby that they forgot games are all about having fun?".

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

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