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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are MMOs focusing too much on FUN?

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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/26/13 9:17:08 AM#341
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Holophonist

 
Actually this idea that video games are supposed to entertain us "like movies" is a problem not just in MMO's but also in the single player game. Look at games like Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, Uncharted, etc. They're all turning into playable movies where almost everything is scripted and there's very little player control even compared older games in those series.
It is only a problem for those with a different preference. It is certainly not a problem for me. I enjoy stories in games. Oh they entertain somewhat differently (like i can choose how to completely my mission in Dishonor, or Deus Ex). Just don't assume i am going to make content like in minecraft.

 

That is NOT my preference.

 

 




Video games are not supposed to entertain us like movies. They are supposed to entertain us like video games. That's not to say that quick time events aren't lame. They are, but not always.

The Walking Dead from TellTale Games is basically a series of quick time events, strung together between the player's choices. There are a few combat checks, but not too many. It is a tense, engrossing experience.

On the other hand, there are games where quick time events aren't a factor. Deus Ex in particular gives the player choices that have impact, and some of the choices aren't even choices; the player just has to be good enough to kill all the bad guys before they kill the pilot. These things has a lasting impact on the game.

Finally, we have games like Minecraft or Don't Starve, where the player is basically left in a hostile world and has to figure out how to survive for no other reason than to survive. There is nothing but the player deciding what to do.

Yes, the entire genre is changing, but it's not all in one direction. Not even MMORPGs are all headed in one direction. There are just too many of them. It's like herding cats, they'll never all go in the same direction, even if you're holding a fish.

 

A good illustration of the fact that good games (from walking dead, to deus ex, to minecraft) have a huge variety of the amount of freedom (some have none in story, some have a little, some have no stories at all) in the story line.

It is a matter of personal preference of what is fun. Personally i like Deus Ex, and NOT minecraft. I am sure there are those who are the reverse. Is Deus Ex a better game than minecraft, or vice versa? The concept of "good" does not even apply. They are just different.

And yes, MMORPGs are not going into the same direction. They are many who are even going into non-MMO territory (like Destiny), which of course is a good thing (the fact of many direction, not particular game).

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10402

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

8/26/13 9:42:51 AM#342


Originally posted by Holophonist
So even though you offer no evidence for your claim, and it sounds far fetched, I still just concede the point because quite frankly it doesn't matter and has never mattered in the context of the argument. And you're still talking about this $10 million dollars claim for some reason?

 

A lot of people say Mortal Online failed because it had no mechanisms to deter griefing. It wouldn't cost much money to have added one from the get-go, it's just a preference thing. They wanted it to be hardcore and it was too hardcore.

 

Revenue absolutely is not the only thing we have to measure them by. Player retention is a big one, but not everything. There's something you guys need to understand: just because a game can be better or worse than another, doesn't mean you can prove a game is better or worse than another. So while the way you debate about which game is better may be mostly subjective, that doesn't mean the subject matter is. That's why it's a debate, a discussion... because you're using logic and reason to determine something and not JUST facts, though facts can come into play. We don't have all of the data regarding player retention, you're right. But that doesn't mean the data is unknowable. What you're really saying is we can't know for sure which game is better, not there isn't such a thing as a "better" game. There's a different. I'm not claiming to know for a fact that sandbox games are better, I'm claiming that they are and then I'm using reason to make my case.

 

I think one of the best ways to determine it (which would be really hard to do impartially) would be to find people who have extensive knowledge in both types of games and poll them. And not "yeah I played UO when it first came out and didn't like it so I quit." Or "I got to level 40 shaman in WoW but it was a boring themepark so I quit." You'd have to have a large number of people actually try both games and see what they think. 

 

I think what you'd find is that you'd have a few different types of responses:

 

1. I like the sandbox games more because they're better.

2. I like the themepark games more because they're better.

3. I like the themepark games more because they're easier to just jump into and have fun but I think sandbox games are deeper/better.

 

I don't think you'd get a lot of the reverse of number 3. 

 

And OP does have reason to backup why game's offering "fun" activities is a bad thing. It's simple: challenge and adversity breed more satisfaction. You guys can throw your fingers in your ears and say "NOT FOR EVERYBODY!!! I FIND IT SATISFYING TO BEAT A BOSS EVEN IF I'M NOT RISKING ANYTHING! YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT I DON'T!" but you're arguing against pretty well established principles of human nature. The shift away from harsher, more open virtual "worlds" and towards instances and scripted "activities" has left the genre with LESS depth, LESS challenge and LESS satisfaction. Do some people prefer that? Yeah, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that most of those people are looking for a more casual experience where they can log on for an hour or so, do something somewhat inconsequential, log out and while they're logged out nothing regarding them is happening in the world and they're not thinking about the game. That's not really indicative of a better or deeper game.




The cost of MMORPGs is relevant because it's a reason why games will cater to a larger group of people by being more accessible. Games that are self financed, like Eve, do not have to do this nearly as much as games that have direct investors. That's one difference between games with a lot of accessibility, and games that do not. Games that need to pay the money back will be more accessible than games that don't need to pay the money back. They will also attract more players.

Cryptic is known for quickly producing MMORPGs that are light on content. They are about as close to quick and cheap as you're going to get with MMORPGs. Look at STO's team. They have 47 named roles on their team, and that's for a game that's gone beyond the initial development phase. Their team size has shrunk from the initial size. http://sto.gamepedia.com/Cryptic_Studios#STO_development_team Even assuming these people are sharing work across other games, that's a significant investment in just labor costs, for a game that's finished. A game that's starting up will have a higher labor cost.

Anyway, you still have to be able to measure whatever it is you're talking about. Saying that sandbox games are more satisfying is fine, but it's just a subjective opinion unless it's measured.

I would think that the natural result of those games being more satisfying is that more people would be playing them. WoW wouldn't have dominated the industry and SWToR wouldn't have as many subscribers as Eve. Yet WoW still dominates the industry and SWToR, a WoW clone if ever there was one has as many subscribers as Eve.

The question I would ask you is if challenge and adversity breed more satisfaction, why don't MMORPGs based on challenge and adversity have more subscribers than games that have more accessibility? Why do MMORPGs with more accessibility always have more initial players than MMORPGs based around challenge and adversity?

**

Where is the visible evidence in the world to back up your statements?

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/26/13 9:59:38 AM#343
Originally posted by lizardbones

The question I would ask you is if challenge and adversity breed more satisfaction, why don't MMORPGs based on challenge and adversity have more subscribers than games that have more accessibility? Why do MMORPGs with more accessibility always have more initial players than MMORPGs based around challenge and adversity?

**

Where is the visible evidence in the world to back up your statements?

 

He will tell you sales does not matter, and other people preferences does not matter. What he said is "good" games should be good games for everyone.

And don't expect evidence except his opinions.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1998

8/26/13 10:06:39 AM#344
Originally posted by lizardbones


Originally posted by Holophonist
So even though you offer no evidence for your claim, and it sounds far fetched, I still just concede the point because quite frankly it doesn't matter and has never mattered in the context of the argument. And you're still talking about this $10 million dollars claim for some reason?

 

A lot of people say Mortal Online failed because it had no mechanisms to deter griefing. It wouldn't cost much money to have added one from the get-go, it's just a preference thing. They wanted it to be hardcore and it was too hardcore.

 

Revenue absolutely is not the only thing we have to measure them by. Player retention is a big one, but not everything. There's something you guys need to understand: just because a game can be better or worse than another, doesn't mean you can prove a game is better or worse than another. So while the way you debate about which game is better may be mostly subjective, that doesn't mean the subject matter is. That's why it's a debate, a discussion... because you're using logic and reason to determine something and not JUST facts, though facts can come into play. We don't have all of the data regarding player retention, you're right. But that doesn't mean the data is unknowable. What you're really saying is we can't know for sure which game is better, not there isn't such a thing as a "better" game. There's a different. I'm not claiming to know for a fact that sandbox games are better, I'm claiming that they are and then I'm using reason to make my case.

 

I think one of the best ways to determine it (which would be really hard to do impartially) would be to find people who have extensive knowledge in both types of games and poll them. And not "yeah I played UO when it first came out and didn't like it so I quit." Or "I got to level 40 shaman in WoW but it was a boring themepark so I quit." You'd have to have a large number of people actually try both games and see what they think. 

 

I think what you'd find is that you'd have a few different types of responses:

 

1. I like the sandbox games more because they're better.

2. I like the themepark games more because they're better.

3. I like the themepark games more because they're easier to just jump into and have fun but I think sandbox games are deeper/better.

 

I don't think you'd get a lot of the reverse of number 3. 

 

And OP does have reason to backup why game's offering "fun" activities is a bad thing. It's simple: challenge and adversity breed more satisfaction. You guys can throw your fingers in your ears and say "NOT FOR EVERYBODY!!! I FIND IT SATISFYING TO BEAT A BOSS EVEN IF I'M NOT RISKING ANYTHING! YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT I DON'T!" but you're arguing against pretty well established principles of human nature. The shift away from harsher, more open virtual "worlds" and towards instances and scripted "activities" has left the genre with LESS depth, LESS challenge and LESS satisfaction. Do some people prefer that? Yeah, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that most of those people are looking for a more casual experience where they can log on for an hour or so, do something somewhat inconsequential, log out and while they're logged out nothing regarding them is happening in the world and they're not thinking about the game. That's not really indicative of a better or deeper game.




The cost of MMORPGs is relevant because it's a reason why games will cater to a larger group of people by being more accessible. Games that are self financed, like Eve, do not have to do this nearly as much as games that have direct investors. That's one difference between games with a lot of accessibility, and games that do not. Games that need to pay the money back will be more accessible than games that don't need to pay the money back. They will also attract more players.

Cryptic is known for quickly producing MMORPGs that are light on content. They are about as close to quick and cheap as you're going to get with MMORPGs. Look at STO's team. They have 47 named roles on their team, and that's for a game that's gone beyond the initial development phase. Their team size has shrunk from the initial size. http://sto.gamepedia.com/Cryptic_Studios#STO_development_team Even assuming these people are sharing work across other games, that's a significant investment in just labor costs, for a game that's finished. A game that's starting up will have a higher labor cost.

Anyway, you still have to be able to measure whatever it is you're talking about. Saying that sandbox games are more satisfying is fine, but it's just a subjective opinion unless it's measured.

I would think that the natural result of those games being more satisfying is that more people would be playing them. WoW wouldn't have dominated the industry and SWToR wouldn't have as many subscribers as Eve. Yet WoW still dominates the industry and SWToR, a WoW clone if ever there was one has as many subscribers as Eve.

The question I would ask you is if challenge and adversity breed more satisfaction, why don't MMORPGs based on challenge and adversity have more subscribers than games that have more accessibility? Why do MMORPGs with more accessibility always have more initial players than MMORPGs based around challenge and adversity?

**

Where is the visible evidence in the world to back up your statements?

 

The real world analog I've used many times is the music industry. People choose rap, pop, and fake radio country over classical music IN DROVES. Are you gonna deny that that Mendelssohn is better than Katy Perry? It's no different with video games: people favoring instant gratification over investing time and emotion to achieve more satisfaction.

Do I have a graph or data showing a correlation between the 2? No, but I have the gift of reason and logic and can see that the shift in MMOs is no different and is based on the same flaw in human nature. Take narius for example, he openly admits that he won't play a game past 15 minutes if it doesn't grab him... that's the kind of consumer we're dealing with. How can it be his preference to play one game over another if he doesn't have knowledge of both types of games?

I think that's the biggest flaw in this stubborn "it's all just opinion and nobody is wrong" argument... most of the people who seem to prefer themeparks haven't really been given a choice. And whether or not they've been given a choice is just the start: even if they knew sandbox games existed and tried it for only 15 minutes before going back to wow, that's not making an educated decision. So it's really not a fair preference at that point.

That's why in my example I specifically said the people you were polling had to be informed about both types of games. Again, the subjective part isn't which type of game is better, it's us figuring out which one is better.
  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4705

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/26/13 10:18:40 AM#345

Yes, there are many that will say that Katy Perry is better than Mendelssohn because it is what they prefer. 

Better is not objective.  Better is subjective. 

If you want to say, he is more complicated, fine.  More sophisticated?  After an argument of sophistication, fine.  More talented, fine.  But better?  No sorry, better is subjective.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-pop-music-inferior-to-classical-music

Many things that seem reasonable and rationale at first, after some study turn out to be completely wrong.  So people saying they have reason and logic doesn't really say anything other than that is what their experience has led them to believe. 

Many many many people have played both, they can make informed decisions. 

And if the product is for entertainment then it should grab them right away.  There is no reason, IMO, that it shouldn't be entertaining in the first 15 minutes.  It doesn't take me longer than a minute to figure out the controls, if I like the aesthetics, the animations or really if the beginning is fun.  If the beginning doesn't entertain me I'll go play some other game.

Which type of game is better is always always always subjective. 

 
 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1648

8/26/13 10:25:20 AM#346
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Holophonist

And OP does have reason to backup why game's offering "fun" activities is a bad thing. It's simple: challenge and adversity breed more satisfaction. You guys can throw your fingers in your ears and say "NOT FOR EVERYBODY!!! I FIND IT SATISFYING TO BEAT A BOSS EVEN IF I'M NOT RISKING ANYTHING! YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT I DON'T!" but you're arguing against pretty well established principles of human nature. The shift away from harsher, more open virtual "worlds" and towards instances and scripted "activities" has left the genre with LESS depth, LESS challenge and LESS satisfaction. Do some people prefer that? Yeah, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that most of those people are looking for a more casual experience where they can log on for an hour or so, do something somewhat inconsequential, log out and while they're logged out nothing regarding them is happening in the world and they're not thinking about the game. That's not really indicative of a better or deeper game.




The question I would ask you is if challenge and adversity breed more satisfaction, why don't MMORPGs based on challenge and adversity have more subscribers than games that have more accessibility? Why do MMORPGs with more accessibility always have more initial players than MMORPGs based around challenge and adversity?

**

Where is the visible evidence in the world to back up your statements?

 

So you're both right, but you're missing the overlap.

 

Challenge and adversity DO breed more satisfaction according to Maslow Hierarchy of Needs and Goal Theory. They are both commonly accepted psychological models by which humans operate.

The overlap is because those accessible games do have challenge and adversity. We're talking about degrees and severity of challenge. Holophonist sees a WoW raid boss and says, "pffft, there's no risk, how can they possibly feel satisfied?"

Easy. Risk of time lost. If your guild spends 2-4 hours wiping on a new boss, you've essentially lost an entire night, and they way raiding works, this process is repeated for a few nights (possibly weeks if people need to upgrade their gear) and when the guild finally downs the boss, everyone feels very very satisfied and accomplished.

Time loss is meaningless if your personal time has no value. Now, everyone's time has *some* value, but it varies a great deal. If you're a teenager your probably don't value your time very highly (you might think that you do, but you won't understand until you're older/have more responsibilities that limit free time).

So the reason you're finding those themepark accessible game to be so popular, is not because those same players don't know the greatness of sandboxes, it's because their internal cost opportunity meter isn't placing much value on what the sandbox is offering while they are feeling satisfied by the content of those themepark games.

 

I fully understand the desire to play a really deep game that you can sink your teeth into and get all mired up in minutia, but I also understand the value of playing a game that offers you accomplishment in bite sized chunks.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4705

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/26/13 10:32:30 AM#347

For now lets assume that challenge and adversity does breed satisfaction.  Something that IMO is not necessarily true, but for now lets assume that.

So what?

IMO this overlooks why most people are playing these games.

IMO most people are not playing these games for self-satisfaction, we are not looking at them for a sense of achievement.  We are playing them for entertainment.

Yes we are playing them for the 1-2 hours a day where we can relax, take a break from the challenge and adversity that allready exist in our lives.

They are just to relax, have fun with, recharge our batteries before facing the real challenges again.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1998

8/26/13 10:35:12 AM#348
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Yes, there are many that will say that Katy Perry is better than Mendelssohn because it is what they prefer. 

Better is not objective.  Better is subjective. 

If you want to say, he is more complicated, fine.  More sophisticated?  After an argument of sophistication, fine.  More talented, fine.  But better?  No sorry, better is subjective.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-pop-music-inferior-to-classical-music

Many things that seem reasonable and rationale at first, after some study turn out to be completely wrong.  So people saying they have reason and logic doesn't really say anything other than that is what their experience has led them to believe. 

Many many many people have played both, they can make informed decisions. 

And if the product is for entertainment then it should grab them right away.  There is no reason, IMO, that it shouldn't be entertaining in the first 15 minutes.  It doesn't take me longer than a minute to figure out the controls, if I like the aesthetics, the animations or really if the beginning is fun.  If the beginning doesn't entertain me I'll go play some other game.

Which type of game is better is always always always subjective. 

 
 

 

It takes less talent to be katy perry than it takes to be mendelssohn. The people who do listen to Mendelssohn are probably more engrossed and interested and invested on average than the average katy perry fan. These are objective measures that are almost impossible to prove. That's why I'm making ARGUMENTS to show that the shift from sandbox to themepark is one that worsens the genre. There are 2 separate issues here: is one game better than the other? How do we know which it is? If you were God and had infinite knowledge of all things known and unknown, you could figure out which game type is better by peering into hypothetical situations like if the same amount of money went into sandboxes and if everybody gave them a fair shot and if whatever else, which game type would win out in the measures we've discussed. Things based on the actual gameplay like player retention and polls of people who have honestly played both. So there's a difference between knowing something and whether or not that thing is knowable.
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2647

There... are... four... lights!

8/26/13 10:39:43 AM#349
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

IMO most people are not playing these games for self-satisfaction, we are not looking at them for a sense of achievement.  We are playing them for entertainment.

True. You have that small minority which tries to find some replacement for what they are lacking in real life in those games, aka "achievement", and the vast majority just playing for entertainment and fun.

That doesn't mean the people playing for entertainment and fun aren't looking for a challenge. That just means that they won't think killing some epic boss in a video game is a life changing achievement which makes them more "hardcore", "better than thou", or whatever else, but just some fun stuff they did in a game.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4705

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/26/13 10:47:02 AM#350
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Yes, there are many that will say that Katy Perry is better than Mendelssohn because it is what they prefer. 

Better is not objective.  Better is subjective. 

If you want to say, he is more complicated, fine.  More sophisticated?  After an argument of sophistication, fine.  More talented, fine.  But better?  No sorry, better is subjective.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-pop-music-inferior-to-classical-music

Many things that seem reasonable and rationale at first, after some study turn out to be completely wrong.  So people saying they have reason and logic doesn't really say anything other than that is what their experience has led them to believe. 

Many many many people have played both, they can make informed decisions. 

And if the product is for entertainment then it should grab them right away.  There is no reason, IMO, that it shouldn't be entertaining in the first 15 minutes.  It doesn't take me longer than a minute to figure out the controls, if I like the aesthetics, the animations or really if the beginning is fun.  If the beginning doesn't entertain me I'll go play some other game.

Which type of game is better is always always always subjective. 

 
 

 

It takes less talent to be katy perry than it takes to be mendelssohn. The people who do listen to Mendelssohn are probably more engrossed and interested and invested on average than the average katy perry fan. These are objective measures that are almost impossible to prove. That's why I'm making ARGUMENTS to show that the shift from sandbox to themepark is one that worsens the genre. There are 2 separate issues here: is one game better than the other? How do we know which it is? If you were God and had infinite knowledge of all things known and unknown, you could figure out which game type is better by peering into hypothetical situations like if the same amount of money went into sandboxes and if everybody gave them a fair shot and if whatever else, which game type would win out in the measures we've discussed. Things based on the actual gameplay like player retention and polls of people who have honestly played both. So there's a difference between knowing something and whether or not that thing is knowable.

Yes it probably does take less talent to be katy perrer than mendelssohn, but that doesn't make his music better.  That makes him a more skilled musician. 

I have no idea if the average person listening to Mendelssohn is more engrossed, and interested.  Possible, possible not.  That is a gross assumption.  But even if it's true, it doens't make his music better.  It just means that is what those people like.

So no you haven't shown any objective measures that make mendelssohn's music is better than Katy Perry's.  Only that he is a more talented musician and some people may be more engrossed.

You have not shown, by any arguments especially these that the shift from sandbox to themepark has worsened the genre. 

You don't know the actual player retention of the games.  All you know is the amount of subs.  Eve has less than 500k and has been slowly growing over a decade.  Swtor has 500k subs and has had that for a year or two, wow has maintained  7 million for many years.  Which has greater retention?  Which has greater turnover.

I will agree that retention is a great indicator, maybe the best one.  We don't know the retention or turnover, we only know the subs.

Maybe sandbox wasn't given a fair shot.  Maybe it was and people chose it over the other (UO/SWG vs EQ).

The point was everything you have stated about genre going to themepark, none of it is objective.  It is just your personal opinion, which is fine.  But don't try to pass it off as truth.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  xaritscin

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/11
Posts: 303

"Antherea Online will see the light, eventually"

8/26/13 10:55:28 AM#351
came expecting somehing related to Dwarf Fortress.....left disappointed
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2647

There... are... four... lights!

8/26/13 11:00:05 AM#352

I like some of Mendelson, but I like Beethoven, Bach and Mozart way more, and I like rock, pop and even electronic music even more. And people like John Williams, Harry-Gregson Williams and hell, even Jeremy Soule are higher in my favorite classical music list than even Beethoven, Bach or Mozart.

I guess that makes me some kind of sub par earth citizen compared to those who think Mendelson is the god of music.

Just saying... :)

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

8/26/13 11:02:05 AM#353

Holophonist, you are coming out as someone who has decided on a claim and tries to make the evidence support that rather than coming up with a claim based on evidence. Suffice to say that is a poor way to build an argument when there are people around who can see what you are doing.

lizardbones and Venge are right by saying that revenue/subs is the only available objective measure of a game. Everything you're saying is entirely subjective. Entirely.

All metaphors saying one is pop and one is classical, or one is fast food and the other fine dining, is complete and utter garbage. Any sensible person would steer well clear from such metaphors. Their only purpose is to antagonize people.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Torik

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2312

8/26/13 11:07:55 AM#354
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Yes it probably does take less talent to be katy perrer than mendelssohn, but that doesn't make his music better.  That makes him a more skilled musician. 

I have no idea if the average person listening to Mendelssohn is more engrossed, and interested.  Possible, possible not.  That is a gross assumption.  But even if it's true, it doens't make his music better.  It just means that is what those people like.

So no you haven't shown any objective measures that make mendelssohn's music is better than Katy Perry's.  Only that he is a more talented musician and some people may be more engrossed.

You have not shown, by any arguments especially these that the shift from sandbox to themepark has worsened the genre. 

Even if we make a definite assumption on which music is objectively better, you still have to prove that your game is analoguous to that music.  Mandelssohn might be great but it is a moot point if you are actually listening to something written by his tone deaf second cousin. 

People on these forums like to use the McDonald's comparisons a lot but fail to realize that even if the other game is a McDonalds analog, it does not mean that the game you like is not actually closer to the hot dog vendor who just gave 100 people food poisoning.

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

8/26/13 11:09:49 AM#355
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I like some of Mendelson, but I like Beethoven, Bach and Mozart way more, and I like rock, pop and even electronic music even more. And people like John Williams, Harry-Gregson Williams and hell, even Jeremy Soule are higher in my favorite classical music list than even Beethoven, Bach or Mozart.

I guess that makes me some kind of sub par earth citizen compared to those who think Mendelson is the god of music.

Just saying... :)

Add Hans Zimmer, Howard Shore, Boccherini, Tchaikovsky and it starts to sound a lot like my playlist!

The attempt to establish sandbox preference as a sort of "refined taste" is ludicrous - complete and utter nonsense.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  xAPOCx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 836

8/26/13 11:23:48 AM#356
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Rydeson

     I disagree..  at least from my point of view.. Today's games are nothing more then arcade style "whack a mole".. It is almost nonstop hack and slash and for me that is gets old in about 30 minutes..  Just like this morning, I logged on to GW2 and only played about that length of time.. Where is the downtime that I'm not button mashing? Is there fishing in the game? NO..  Cooking is ok, but not required.. Nothing in the form of making drinks.. And yes movies to get over done in my eyes..  There have been a number of movies in the recent years that the eye candy action turns me OFF..  It's very similar to desensitizing the brain..

I don't quite see how that conflicts with what I said. 80% of everything is crap.  So what?  Are you really implying that because a game aimed high and (in your eyes) was mediocre that games should stop trying to create compelling, exciting games?

As for downtime, if you want it choose it.  That's the magic of games which don't force downtime on you.  Want to spend time sitting around doing nothing between fights?  You can!   Want to travel everywhere manually?  You can!   Want to take a break in town?  You can!  It's entirely up to you how much downtime you experience.

Meanwhile the game doesn't force the rest of us (who know that most of those things are shallow wastes of time) to waste our time with non-gameplay.

IMO, todays MMOs are neither compelling or exciting. So for me they are mediocre. Might be one point the OP was getting at. Fun for some may not be fun for others. I think on of the problems are that game cos are making games based of pie charts instead of flavor or style.

 

They are trying to hard to add all the most popular elements into one MMO and trying the sell it and i dont think they should be doin that. Make different MMOs for different people. Stop trying to please the highest common denominator and get back to basics.

 

I like a lot of different food. I dont like them all cooked together and put on one plate.

 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2647

There... are... four... lights!

8/26/13 11:34:09 AM#357
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I like some of Mendelson, but I like Beethoven, Bach and Mozart way more, and I like rock, pop and even electronic music even more. And people like John Williams, Harry-Gregson Williams and hell, even Jeremy Soule are higher in my favorite classical music list than even Beethoven, Bach or Mozart.

I guess that makes me some kind of sub par earth citizen compared to those who think Mendelson is the god of music.

Just saying... :)

Add Hans Zimmer, Howard Shore, Boccherini, Tchaikovsky and it starts to sound a lot like my playlist!

The attempt to establish sandbox preference as a sort of "refined taste" is ludicrous - complete and utter nonsense.

Zimmer and Howard Shore are definitely in my top list too!

But so are AC:DC and Metallica... go figure ;)

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1998

8/26/13 11:37:42 AM#358
Originally posted by Quirhid

Holophonist, you are coming out as someone who has decided on a claim and tries to make the evidence support that rather than coming up with a claim based on evidence. Suffice to say that is a poor way to build an argument when there are people around who can see what you are doing.

lizardbones and Venge are right by saying that revenue/subs is the only available objective measure of a game. Everything you're saying is entirely subjective. Entirely.

All metaphors saying one is pop and one is classical, or one is fast food and the other fine dining, is complete and utter garbage. Any sensible person would steer well clear from such metaphors. Their only purpose is to antagonize people.

 

Not at all. I'm someone who has noticed 2 separate trends based on the same elements of human nature. I saw evidence supporting that and am now trying to put it into words. The strongest piece of evidence is the similarity regarding people's involvement. Most of the people who say they're not interested in an intense, long play session and just want to come home and relax for an hour or 2 are typically the people arguing against the deep, satisfying type of game I'm advocating for. That seems to me to be analogous with the typical pop music consumer who probably hasn't invested as much time or, more importantly thought, into it as somebody who listens to classical. By the way classical is just a placeholder used as a stark contrast to pop music. Earlier I used the wall and dark side of the moon.

You say I've made my claim and then made up evidence to support it as if there's some evidence flying in the face of my claim. What is it? Because revenue generated is fundamentally flawed as I've explained before. The whole problem with the mmo industry in terms of game quality is developers noticing a way to homogenize their games to appeal to more players. More money just means a bigger market, not necessarily a better product.
  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1998

8/26/13 11:44:32 AM#359
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

For now lets assume that challenge and adversity does breed satisfaction.  Something that IMO is not necessarily true, but for now lets assume that.

So what?

IMO this overlooks why most people are playing these games.

IMO most people are not playing these games for self-satisfaction, we are not looking at them for a sense of achievement.  We are playing them for entertainment.

Yes we are playing them for the 1-2 hours a day where we can relax, take a break from the challenge and adversity that allready exist in our lives.

They are just to relax, have fun with, recharge our batteries before facing the real challenges again.

 

This kind of sidesteps the issue I think. You're basically saying "I want less out of my game so I prefer a game that gives me less"

What I'm saying is a game that gives you less is a worse game. The claim I'm making is that deeper games (I use the term sandbox a lot because it kind of sums things up) will yield greater enjoyment if you invest time. I totally get that some people prefer the less intense games. What I'm saying is they're in general missing out because they're not willing to invest the time/effort/emotion/whatever it takes to reap those rewards.
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18786

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

8/26/13 11:46:42 AM#360
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Quirhid

Holophonist, you are coming out as someone who has decided on a claim and tries to make the evidence support that rather than coming up with a claim based on evidence. Suffice to say that is a poor way to build an argument when there are people around who can see what you are doing.

lizardbones and Venge are right by saying that revenue/subs is the only available objective measure of a game. Everything you're saying is entirely subjective. Entirely.

All metaphors saying one is pop and one is classical, or one is fast food and the other fine dining, is complete and utter garbage. Any sensible person would steer well clear from such metaphors. Their only purpose is to antagonize people.

 

Not at all. I'm someone who has noticed 2 separate trends based on the same elements of human nature. I saw evidence supporting that and am now trying to put it into words. The strongest piece of evidence is the similarity regarding people's involvement. Most of the people who say they're not interested in an intense, long play session and just want to come home and relax for an hour or 2 are typically the people arguing against the deep, satisfying type of game I'm advocating for. That seems to me to be analogous with the typical pop music consumer who probably hasn't invested as much time or, more importantly thought, into it as somebody who listens to classical. By the way classical is just a placeholder used as a stark contrast to pop music. Earlier I used the wall and dark side of the moon.

You say I've made my claim and then made up evidence to support it as if there's some evidence flying in the face of my claim. What is it? Because revenue generated is fundamentally flawed as I've explained before. The whole problem with the mmo industry in terms of game quality is developers noticing a way to homogenize their games to appeal to more players. More money just means a bigger market, not necessarily a better product.

Yeah, this.

Unfortunately MMO devs aren't interested in winning the Sundance Film Festival equivalent for gaming, they'd much rather make a bucket load of money with the latest "popular" product instead of making great art.

Just the way it is now days, outside of a few indie dev's who are trying to buck the trend, but with little chance of success.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

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