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General Discussion  » What makes you certain that this game will do well as a P2P?

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64 posts found

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/22/12
Posts: 362

8/21/13 8:34:09 AM#21
Wildstar will do well as P2P so long as it's built for longevity. If it's built to last then it will flourish under that payment model. If it's more bite-sized gaming then within a year I can see it going B2P or F2P. We still don't know the longevity of it though. This will be a wait and see. Also, even if this game goes F2P or B2P it's not a marker that F2P is leading the market. It's very simply a marker that this game couldn't make it as P2P.

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1199

8/21/13 8:37:35 AM#22
Originally posted by Slappy1
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Slappy1
I see the game going ftp within 6-9 month's or so.I just don't see this pay model working and with other ftp options that are just as good,nahh.

You haven't played it, but the other options are just as good?  lol

here's another for you,even if the game played as well as WoW and has housing,it's below what I can play for free.I can play Rift/Neverwinter/EQ2/PoE/Tera and so on for free,why would I pay $15 a month for less?Rift offers more for free.

I'll pay for the community.

I recently gave RIFT another go, logged out of 3 different servers because of gross convos in chat. Worse even than the Darkfall chat, and that is saying something.

Tera....well lets see a F2P community that can't let go of 1 race being "child LIKE", and therefore if you play one, you are a "pedo".


I can't speak to the others since I haven't played them. But I have played other F2P games and well I will leave it at, " I have enough anecdotal evidence that it is more than a trend to find crappy communities."


GW2 seems to be an exception, but there is the box sale that may be a barrier to many fools.


Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 2702

8/21/13 8:37:41 AM#23
What makes YOU certain that this game would do better with a cash shop that influences the game?


Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/21/13 8:48:18 AM#24


The only thing certain in the entire field of mmos is: The Players on this site will probably† hate* whatever you make.

*In the unlikely event that some do like it, the game-specific message board will in inundated with vitriol, until all expressions of happiness are erased and the Threat has passed.

Trend first established in 2003, and continues unabated; with a single exception (EVE), receiving remarkably good local press and generally accepted as the Great White Hope of Sandbox; may be receiving active and ongoing viral marketing from several sources.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.


Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/13
Posts: 296

8/21/13 10:28:00 AM#25
Rift does not offer more for free. It offers the bare minimum for free then nickel and dimes you for everything else. P2P offers the entire game for a nominal fee. You can *gasp* play the game and get anything you want.

Whats worse is your purchase has no gameplay value what-so-ever. You buy your cash shop crap, go to your mail box, its yours. Thats it. You dont kill any difficult boss for it, grind, or any form of gameplay past running to you mailbox. THAT is why f2p is such garbage ... not to mention how development shifts primarily to the cash shop which just makes it worse.

As fir Wildstars success ... no one can be certain. Its obvious the bar for p2p games is high. However the fact that WoW hold 8million+ subs, and newer MMOs like SWTOR sell 2million+ as a sub show that players are ready and willing to pat a sub for a quality MMO. The fact that most have gone f2p only proves they havent met the requirements, not that "f2p is the future" like the sellout in many sites would have you believe.

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/04
Posts: 504

8/21/13 3:52:37 PM#26
Originally posted by velmax
In the past few years SWTOR, Rift, The Secret World, Aion, Tera and tons of more mmo's have gone F2P. What makes you certain that THIS game will do it right? 

Hard to say without playing the game, eh?


All of those games you listed are post WoW clones that follow the same design model.  They all have huge doses of solo ez mode.  Years and millions of dollars spent on making content players obliterate very quickly and that has little replay value because the solo content was so distinct, well done, memorable, fixed, rigid, static.  Then they didn't have enough endgame and/or had broken endgame.  This model isn't worth a sub.


Single player games aren't worth a sub and if there isn't enough to do period, like not enough endgame or other diversions for downtime between endgame events, it's not worth a sub.


I actually think Rift IS or WAS worth a sub but the game is so somewhat generic even with deep lore and one of the best character systems in existence that it somehow just lacks appeal to many players.  It also has stupidly easy and generic leveling that just isn't all that great even if the instances you can do while leveling and the planar content ARE very good.  The character races are basically humans.  The mobs aren't from the typical Tolkien set.  I don't know what it is.  The quality of instances and raids is on par with WoW.  The planar content (rifts, events, invasions, etc) give you a ton of extra potential stuff to do at all levels.


I stopped playing Rift to hop to SWTOR, which ended up being a short term deal since SWTOR epitomizes the post WoW clone fail design.  I didn't leave Rift because of the sub, or getting tired of it, or anything like that.  I was full on in the raiding progression and loving the content.  I just got lured away.  Plus I started Rift after 6.5 years of WoW and very intense raiding, guild leading, raid leading, and I was somewhat burnt on raiding and didn't intend to raid in Rift but of course it happened and I was getting to the point of not wanting to deal with elitist d-bag guilds to get deeper in progression.  My somewhat casual guild had reached it's limit.


By the time I was done with SWTOR GW2 hooked me and ended up being an even bigger disappointment since it's not even really an MMORPG and is more of a single player game - good game, but not a good MMORPG.


Then me and friends checked out TSW and loved it.  Even with the heavy emphasis on solo leveling that content is amazingly well done and fun.  People I know who typically hate leveling loved the TSW solo content and finished it up long after we didn't need it to level anymore.  Truly remarkable.  TSW has a slick character system and some of my favorite instances in all of MMORPG history (little to no trash, emphasis on fun boss fights, excellent "elite" mode instances with some hard fights and almost raid-like mechanics here and there).  TSW's problem is just nowhere near enough content for endgame.  And funcom is inept.  Funcom's idea of patching in content after release is to spend 2 months creating content for soloists to obliterate in 2-4 hours instead of expanding end game.  So...people get done, have nothing to do, and they're gone.  Maybe come back for that 2-4 hours 2 months later when the next installment hits.  Or just uninstall and be done with it since a few hours of new solo ez-mode is still useless solo ez-mode.


By the time I got back to reconsidering Rift it had an xpac that I feel was poorly executed and had gone F2P.  Rift has one of the better F2P implimentations except for the whole REX thing where cheating losers can buy game currency for cash.  That's a deal breaker for me.  Facilitating cheating and having so many people willingly cheat is just a "no."


What I can say is that F2P is complete and utter trash.  It's an ok model for some genres - like it works well in a game like LoL where the stuff you buy has nothing to do with your success.  For MMORPGs, it's the worst thing ever because it always involves pay to win, immersion destroying fluffy crap, or worse, the ability to outright cheat and buy game currency for cash.


Success in RPGs and MMORPGs should be about how much and how well you play.  Success in MMORPGs should also be about how well you leverage social to make friends, find a guild that matches you, and how much you can accomplish via teamwork, since solo is hollow and easy by comparison.   MMORPGs should not be about how much you're willing to pay or how much you're willing to cheat to get ahead.  Or a mini/side game of how much can I play without paying because the world owes me everything including multi-million dollar gaming entertainment.


F2P players in MMORPGs are of a lower overall quality for the most part and when MMORPGs go F2P their overall quality tanks.  Support and GMing are reduced and lower quality.  Etc.  F2P for MMORPGs is a model that appeals to people who don't want to pay for entertainment or who don't want to stick with one game primarily for a long period of time.  Ie, it appeals to people who aren't core MMORPG players.


I see MMORPGs as having 2 audiences.  The core players, the types who want to group a lot, who want to stick with one game for a long time, who want progression, who want strong guilds and community - the type who played MMORPGs when they first came out and this was all there was.


And then for whatever reason MMORPG devs decided to go for broader appeal and mutilated a successful formula to try to appeal to more casual players who don't really have the same style or desires as core players.


All the post WoW clones fail because they are trying to be everything for everybody.  From core to casual, from PvE to PvP, they all try to do everything and ultimately don't do enough for any particular audience and end up not holding on to much of anyone.


The GW2/TESO model is saying, screw grouping, let's just make single player games that are online.  This works great for the casuals who don't really want serious MMORPG elements.  This kind of game isn't worth a sub because it's a lighter experience and players are more likely to come and go or play more casually (not as intensely as you would with a beefier and real MMORPG).  F2P works ok here even with all of it's suck because you just won't get subs with this style of game.  I think Z is smoking crack to think TESO will survive as sub-based when it's not really an MMORPG.


What's lacking today is a modern MMORPG with the more classic style of group heavy play at all levels, challenge at all levels, and beefy progression that can go on for years.   A game worth a sub.


But, it's really hard to say whether WildStar is going to be that game.  It has some intriguing elements and design ideas towards that goal.


IMO, their CREDD thing is a collasal mistake.  A game that costs 60 for the box and ~15/mo should not also have the worst of cash shops, the facilitated cheating of buying game currency for cash, in it as well.  For me that's an immediate no sale.  I will not pay to play along side cheaters.


Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.


Advanced Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1799

8/21/13 4:03:46 PM#27

I don't have to be certain I just have to be hopeful and willing to give it it's due chance.  If it's not the P2P game I hope it is that will be made obvious pretty quickly once the game goes live and at most I am out a box fee.  Given how easy it is to spend 2-3 times that the first month playing a so called F2P game just to avoid the frustration walls I think that's a pretty good deal if you ask me.

I don't think anyone who supports P2P is ready to say this game is it's savior (even if P2P needed one).  But lots of F2P supporters are sure it's going to fail on the merits of it's financial model alone.

What makes you certain it will fail as a P2P game?


Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 2356

We are recruiting.

8/22/13 6:22:40 PM#28

A year ago I would have said 'non P2P games suck. They don't have as much content and nickle and dime you to death.' Today however, after the success of Guild Wars 2, which has just as much content as any other MMOG and releases new content faster than anyone out there, again for free. I gotta say no. The tide has changed, B2P and F2P is the way to go. There are still MMOGs that nickle and dime you with cash shop bullshit or gated content, but GW2's success proves you can do B2P and be extremely successful and make a boat-load of money.

For me, any P2P MMOG from this point out has to be mindblowingly good, significantly better than GW2 (which IMHO is unlikely) for me to even consider paying to sit around in town waiting for queues like the $$$ I wasted doing so in WoW.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 293

8/23/13 1:15:00 PM#29

The game will do well because they are focusing on player retention via constant updates.  That is something no MMO since WoW has done, which is why they all failed.  All recent sub based MMOs launch, and then they don't even bother to make bug fixes, never mind release quality content updates. 


Originally posted by Slappy1
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Slappy1
I see the game going ftp within 6-9 month's or so.I just don't see this pay model working and with other ftp options that are just as good,nahh.

You haven't played it, but the other options are just as good?  lol

here's another for you,even if the game played as well as WoW and has housing,it's below what I can play for free.I can play Rift/Neverwinter/EQ2/PoE/Tera and so on for free,why would I pay $15 a month for less?Rift offers more for free.

So, even if the game is as good as WoW, which millions upon millions have played, yet better, then it is still not good enough for you to pay a subs fee.

How do you know how much the game offers?  You don't.  You are talking out of your ass.

Well it sounds like you are such a cheapskate that you believe that no MMO is worth a month sub.  If that is the case, then don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Just remember, nothing is free, and you get what you pay for.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 865

8/26/13 5:28:46 AM#30

Originally posted by fubarbox1
Here's the thing, no one can be certain and whether it can flourish as a P2P game rest squarely on the developers shoulders. I personally do not believe there is some paradigm shift to F2P because P2P is outdated, games like WoW and EvE are doing just fine. I feel the reason for this false positive of F2P = better than P2P, is because we have been inundated with nothing but a string of mediocre games at best in the past few years.

Every game you have listed has had some major flaw that have caused it to be abandoned by player populations at large. The industry has just gotten into a rut in general trying to chase the formula that made WoW successful and they keep failing. Other than mediocre titles, the only other thing that pushes F2P/B2P are developers knowing they can get a large enough segment of the population to pay much more than they would have under a P2P model. This creates an environment that balances between P2Win and games that tend to be interesting enough to spend money in, but shallow overall. Which allows company to squeeze more short term money out of their players instead of focusing on keeping players long term.

The only game I feel that has used a free type model for the better is GW2, which was B2P. With that said, even though I loved the game at first and used the Gem Shop (short term) for some cosmetics, in the end, I got bored very fast. The game just felt shallow to me and I had no reason to stay. But as I go back over what I spent on bags and supplies, it came out to about $15 a month and a tad more sometimes when averaged. However, they did do something right by having new monthly content, even if it is only so so. this allows them to pull those short term burnouts back in occasionally and get them to buy something shinny, even if they rarely play.

Obviously this is all just my opinion and others will feel vastly different. Some of those different opinions will come from the "I want nice stuff and I want people to give it to me free, no matter how much it costs them" crowed or the part of the population that has game ADD, and probably a segment who actually think these games are cheaper in the long run (and they can be for a small bit of the population). But when it comes down to it, companies make money and if it was cheaper for the population as a whole, that would mean less money and that would not be acceptable to them. Finally, I think a P2P can do wonderful in this market, but it needs to get over this slump of mediocrity we have been bombarded with. If it cannot do this, it might as well go F2P, but only because its really not worth our time or money....

Even if this is a wall of text you pretty much wrote down my thoughts exactly, only the developers can make certain that this game will do well as a P2P title.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/13/12
Posts: 217

8/26/13 6:37:49 AM#31
Originally posted by Robokapp

the players it caters to entered the genre when it was P2P dominant.



Aye, I am not by any means certain that the game will do well, but if it does what it promises to this very specific group of people, it will be a success.

  User Deleted
8/26/13 6:40:41 AM#32

Every subscription based MMORPG that has made the conversion to either Freemium or F2P has had to alter their design to cater to it. Games that are built F2P out of the box have to sell a metric crap-ton of cash shop items to defray the huge cost of MMO development. In both cases, these games either gate content, sell boosts or badger players to a pulp with ads and "deals". Players are bombarded by constant advertisements reminding them of all of the cool stuff they don't have from the cash shop - many of which offer in-game advantages. Emails stream to their inboxes asking them to spend money on cosmetic items that look better than raid gear (if the game even has raiding), boosts that reward cash instead of competence, and all the while rewarding players who game-hop and leaving the faithful in the dust.

No thank you.

I want the full game for my $15. No bombardment, no constant stream of ads and a game that's designed to give me the full game out of the box.

And as Robokapp said earlier, I mostly agree - WildStar does [in a sense] cater to those of us who entered the genre when P2P was dominant. I makes sense to players like me. Gaffney speaks my language, what can I say?

I'd rather play a game that has 500K $15/mo. subs than a game with 3 Million who would have to spend way more money to have the 'complete' game.

(Disclaimer - this is an opinion folks, if you don't agree that's perfectly fine with me. That's why these are 'discussion' boards, not 'truth' boards)


Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 3040

8/26/13 6:44:10 AM#33
It'll go ftp.. they lose about 80% of their audience by putting a sub on it. It all comes down to money and sub just isn't the best option for anyone other than Blizzard. Sub might be best for the hardcore players but it's not what's best for the game. TESO has a chance cos it's a massive IP. Wildstar is brand new.. they shouldn't even be taking that chance.

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 2191

8/26/13 7:04:00 AM#34

I'm not certain WS will do well as P2P.


But I am certain that F2P is showing diminishing returns that will become increasingly severe as more big titles enter the F2P market.

Competition is F2P's worst enemy. A person isn't likely to drop $50 in 4 different cash shops. If that person puts money into a game, it'll be his favorite one while playing the others on the side. And with every new release, that pool of available games keeps growing, but each person's spending power does not.

Let's say you enjoy LOTRO, SWTOR, and GW2. But you mostly play GW2 - how much are you spending in the other two? Chances are, you're spending nothing.

On top of an expanding number of offerings, we have the "shop till you drop" enabled in these games. Where one person might get a little ahead of themselves, drop $500-$1000 in a few months in one game and then get hit with the reality that it was a waste and all of a sudden he becomes a "I pay nothing, I let the whales take care of it" type of player. He was the whale, and now he learned a harsh reality that F2P really means, "Go on, spend whatever you'd like, there you go, keep spending."

You can only fleece people so many times, and the longer the F2P market goes on, the more and more people will end up feeling this way. It's basically racing against itself. The early adopters have done well, but the bottom will drop out from under them sooner than later.

How many more releases before you can't even remember AoC, DDO, Aion? After that, SWTOR, NWO, Rift. F2P is always on borrowed time. P2P can succeed long term if it can hook a reasonable playerbase. Which means being a good enough game that people will stay. If not, it goes for the quick bucks in F2P knowing that those F2P people will ditch them as soon as the next big title is out.


Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/12
Posts: 665

8/26/13 7:10:09 AM#35

Nothing is certain, but it seems guys at Carbine might get it right.

Obviously, main issue for them is unknown IP. They will probably compensate this with big marketing and rely on early adopters to introduce other new players to the game through 3 per box  invite a friend 7-day trials.

Lots of features are in, seamless world, action combat, PVE raids, PVP with spectator mode, housing, crafting...they seem to be covered there.

Content wise, I don't know. If they make leveling process long, but not too boring, with enough diversity (different mobs, alternative leveling zones etc.), while having challenging raid content, I think the game will be sub worthy. 

One thing is sure, P2P model will defeinitely make me wait a bit after launch before buying, so I don't go through that SWTOR experience again.

  User Deleted
8/26/13 7:17:41 AM#36
Originally posted by DeniZg

Nothing is certain, but it seems guys at Carbine might get it right.

Obviously, main issue for them is unknown IP. They will probably compensate this with big marketing and rely on early adopters to introduce other new players to the game through 3 per box  invite a friend 7-day trials.

Lots of features are in, seamless world, action combat, PVE raids, PVP with spectator mode, housing, crafting...they seem to be covered there.

Content wise, I don't know. If they make leveling process long, but not too boring, with enough diversity (different mobs, alternative leveling zones etc.), while having challenging raid content, I think the game will be sub worthy. 

One thing is sure, P2P model will defeinitely make me wait a bit after launch before buying, so I don't go through that SWTOR experience again.

Well put. You mention SWTOR. Based my my SWTOR experience I'll say this: EA/BioWare blamed the barrier of the sub fee for their player numbers plummeting. Many of us strongly disagreed and said the GAME was the issue, not the sub. However, due to millions spent on marketing and PR, it seems that the masses are starting to buy into the "blame the sub, not the game" mentality. People are already assuming WildStar won't be good enough to merit the sub. Only time will tell, but if the sub model fails for WildStar - it will be the fault of the game, not the fee. 


Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/13
Posts: 133

8/26/13 7:22:24 AM#37

I think Wildstar might attract quite abit of bitter wow vets.

They already know the sound of the whip in 40 man raids and wanted it back.

Then you have the casual flock who want to try out a new mmo

And you have the die hard mmo players that are fed up with their current mmo's.


Wildstar could do very well if the game delivers.

Its basicly Vanila WoW with a twist if you ask me.


But none of us can look into the crystal ball so wait and see what happens.

I prefer a Sub over free to play anyday of the week and i hope sub for great mmo's return after playing a crapton of FtP mmo's pun intented.


Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 9083

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

8/26/13 7:43:53 AM#38
Originally posted by velmax
In the past few years SWTOR, Rift, The Secret World, Aion, Tera and tons of more mmo's have gone F2P. What makes you certain that THIS game will do it right? 

This game will only do better if its better then those games....  And a game can allways go f2p when their subs are falling.


Wildstar is the only company that exactly knows how succesfull the B2P of GW2 was, and that might be the reaason of going P2P with subs included.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)


Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/12
Posts: 354

I like games.

8/26/13 7:52:44 AM#39
The reason it's going to do well is because Gaffney seems to know what players need to stay interested in a P2P. The game is launching with housing that's tied into the raiding for example.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/03
Posts: 39

Yeah..From way back.

8/26/13 6:14:18 PM#40
Originally posted by Avarix
Wildstar will do well as P2P so long as it's built for longevity. If it's built to last then it will flourish under that payment model. If it's more bite-sized gaming then within a year I can see it going B2P or F2P. We still don't know the longevity of it though. This will be a wait and see. Also, even if this game goes F2P or B2P it's not a marker that F2P is leading the market. It's very simply a marker that this game couldn't make it as P2P.

This is my reasoning exactly. If youve got the right formula and the content and you stick to your guns theres absolutely no reason to not do well. People keep spouting how you need to be like everyone else in this market when thats bullcrap. 

If every restaurant in town went with cheap frozen, reheated crap and you roll in with high quality and great tastes you can charge what the heck you want! Ive seen it and it keeps happening. Once a brand decides to go the easy / cheap-o route they may get a slight surge then everyone realizes theyre consuming garbage. "hey lets go pay for some quality this time and see what happens"

Companies are getting their butts kicked left and right because they think all consumers are blind deaf and dumb. You keep lowering the quality and youre asking for it. So now we're in the phase of MMO dev. companies asking for it.

Dont be narrow minded, not everyone is a drone willing to following whats seemingly popular. Alot of people with the money are sitting back just waiting for that quality whatever to show up then bam!

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