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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Truly fun MMO's scare me...and have quests that are NOT scripted

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  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

8/21/13 2:24:44 PM#121
Originally posted by twrule
Originally posted by Holophonist

Nothing about a game that has harsh death penalties implies that it takes any more time than a game without harsh death penalties. In fact, it's often the opposite. In UO you can become somewhat viable by maxing out a few different types of characters in very little time compared to getting to max level in a lot of themepark games. So I think you're just wrong in your assumption about what a harsh death penalty means if you think there's inherently more time wasted in those games. And it looks like that is what you think because you mentioned the "arbitrary tedium and time-wasting that games like this might put them through"

 I've never played UO, so that example is lost on me, but I don't need to argue that all games with harsh death penalties are more time consuming in general; all the people I'm hearing who want this 'sense of fear' have been tending to associate it closely with harsh death penalties, just as you are - so my point is that that association doesn't work because you're essentially asking exactly for a more time-wasting experience, and that is senseless when you should be able to generate the basic form of excitement you seek through other, possibly healthier means. 

You absolutely need to argue for that point. Most harsh penalty games I can think of don't require nearly as much of a time sink as the games that don't. Games that have harsh death penalties are TYPICALLY more likely to be sandbox games than games that don't have harsh death penalties. And sandbox games are well known for the lack of "end game" content. In other words, the journey is the fun part, not the destination. So for a lot of sandbox games (and likewise games that have harsh death penalties), you need to devote very LITTLE time before you can have fun. Thempark games typically don't have penalties for death and yet they are notorious for their grinds being just an investment to get to the lategame.

 

You literally have it backwards. Harsh death penalties are designed to make each individual task more satisfying, because they're typically more risky.

I've already explained to you why it's a "risk" or something to be "feared" but you don't really seem to care. By your logic any type of feeling you get from a video game is ultimately meaningless because video games are all technically a waste of time. I'm not sure why you choose this particular type of feeling in a video game to scrutinize, but obviously enjoy SOME kind of real emotion from playing video games, otherwise you wouldn't play them.

Your "explanation" (which consisted of 'risk vs. reward is a simple concept') was pretty incomplete and not really helpful for someone who doesn't already relate to your viewpoint. 

It consisted of a lot more than that. The possibility of loss will cause you to take things for granted less. This is a tale as old as time. You don't know what you've got until it's gone. For a lot of us, the rush of adrenaline we get in a game is because we know what the consequences are, even if it's just subconsciously.

 

This is true at SOME LEVEL for almost any human, so I can't fathom how you don't even UNDERSTAND why people would prefer a game with risk/reward. I can understand why you personally may not get that thrill if you're faced with a situation that may cause you to lose the progress you've just made, but I don't get how you don't even understand how other people get it. Here's an exaggerated example to illustrate the fundamental concept: If you're playing poker for fun with your friends, you probably won't be all that nervous. But if you decide to play poker with your life savings, chances are you're going to become more nervous. That's because there's more on the line. People who want harsh death penalties want to feel like there's more on the line than just a couple of minutes walk back to where they were.

You don't seem to differentiate between more superficial sensations like excitement over escaping death in a video game and 'real emotion', which is part of the problem. I admitted to having superficial sensations like 'satisfaction'. That is often enough to keep me playing them. However, if I have any 'real emotions' while playing a video game, I assure you it has nothing to do with the game mechanics. I chose this to scrutinize because this is the most commonly mentioned one I see on these forums, often phrased in the same terms, and it is also the most (in my view) overblown. If everyone specified that they were talking about basic 'adrenaline rushes' and not lauding some 'real emotion' they supposedly felt in the past in connection with a particular category of game mechanic, we would not be having this discussion.

It sounds like you just don't like him using the word "fear." Whatever you want to call it, we're talking about the thrill you get when you're in danger in games like UO, EQ, even single player games like Dark Souls. You say that's a "real emotion" whereas excitement from just beating a boss is a "superficial sensation." This is a pointless distinction. I agree that the feeling you get in a harsh death penalty game is probably MORE INTENSE, but that's the whole point! Basically your argument is just coming down to: You shouldn't care this much about video games. Well sorry, but who are you to say how much we should or shouldn't care about our games? 

By the way, a lot of "risk" in life is simply risking your time, just like in a video game except often to a larger degree. Millions of people enjoy playing poker because of the thrill that comes along with winning. This thrill obviously is intensified (or totally created, for most) from the fact that they're using REAL money. Risking real money for the most part is just risking time. So it's actually a very similar risk to that in games, just to a larger degree.

There are some similarities but they are differences of type except under an extremely broad definition of 'risk'. I'm not going to linger on this point though, because I don't think it's terribly important to our disagreement, it's just a disagreement over semantics.

It's not a broad definition at all, it's just the definition. And I don't think it's just arguing over semantics, I think it's somewhat important. You seem to suggest that there's a disconnect between "real world" emotions and the kind of emotions we SHOULD be feeling for our virtual worlds. Well I'm pointing out that they're similar emotions, just to a lesser degree. The risk I would feel playing poker with my own money is not fundamentally different from the risk I would feel crawling through a dungeon in UO with a lot of loot on me. There's a difference of degree, but that's all.

No, they are clearly just talking about the thrill that they get in dangerous situations. As OP pointed out, if you're farming in a dungeon in UO and it's been a while since you last banked, if you get attacked by another player, you're going to CARE more about that fight because you have a decent amount of loot on you. You caring about the fight just manifests itself into a fear-like emotion wherein sometimes you even get a little nervous, or get shaky hands. This doesn't mean you're gonna have trouble sleeping that night because you're afraid that guy is gonna come back and kill you in your bed, it just means having harsh death penalties makes you give a shit about dying.

This was the type of superficial sensation I was talking about. To each his own if they get a rush in the moment from such situations - though it's the aftermath of that, when you do fail and die, that was my chief focus.

The aftermath of the situation (if you fail) is what causes you to have that adrenaline rush in the first place. You can't have that rush without occasionally feeling the loss, that's the whole point.

 

It seems that, since they supposedly have experienced this reaction from this situation having to do with harsh death penalties, that people asking for harsh death penalties assume that only those sorts of mechanics and the situations they create can evoke equally pleasurable/exciting sensations in them (hence the title of this thread), which is the assumption I'm criticizing.

What other kind of mechanic will give us that sensation? Because I'm pretty sure whatever you can think of is going to be practically identical to what we want. I'm not sure how you're not getting this: We want to CARE about the game. For us the best way to care about the things in the game is to have the risk of losing them. And the level of risk has to be comparable to how difficult it is to attain the gear in the first place, otherwise immersion will be broken. You can't have a FULL LOOT game that also has gear that you grind 100 hours to get obviously. The ratio of time it takes to get the item compared to time it takes to lose it just wouldn't work.

 

Well you're the one using the word glory, so I don't really think it's all that valid to shoot down an argument you made up. In reality ALL we're saying is if there's a chance we can lose X, then we'll care more about X. That should be a very simple and straightforward concept. 

It's my analysis of the situation from my perspective, not an argument attributed to anyone.

The highlighted sentence is not a straightforward concept, it's a broad sweeping generalization. Not everything that one can lose is worth giving a damn about, and some things much less than others. Some people invest themselves disproportionately in trivial things, which I was accusing some here of, based on their overblown rhetoric. Actually, it's much more likely to me that such people are blowing things out of proportion and emphasizing the wrong things, leading to a misunderstanding of where their 'fun' comes from. Again, don't confuse genuine concern with base inclination.

No here you're just misunderstanding. I didn't at all say that having the possibility of losing something will make you objectively "care" about it. I'm saying adding on the possibility of losing something will make you care MORE about an item. Sure, some people may still just not give a shit about whatever gold they lose, and some people in themepark games may care way too much about gold/items that they CAN'T lose. But that doesn't change what I'm saying which is that adding the risk of losing an item, will cause you to care more about it.

So, again, you're just taking issue with the degree to which people get hooked on these games, not the type of game they're getting hooked on. I don't see how wanting a game with harsh death penalties is any less healthy emotionally than a themepark game that could take 100's of hours to grind up to to get the best gear. I'm sure there are just as many overly-attached psycho WoW players as there are overly-attached psycho UO players, if not more.

It is both the degree and location where emphasis is placed that I'm taking issue with - the two issues are intertwined in this case. I don't see how this paragraph is relevant at all. I was not arguing in favor of any type of game, or favoring other unhealthy obsessions.

It's relevant because your argument seems to have shifted from "I don't understand why people want harsh death penalties" to "they shouldn't have these emotions about a virtual world." So I'm pointing that shift out. I'm telling you that your problem doesn't actually seem to be that you can't grasp the concept of risk/reward, your problem now seems to be that you don't think people should care about risk/reward in a video game because hey... it's just a video game.

 

The second half of my paragraph is pointing out that if you really are just worried about how emotionally invested people get into video games, you're looking at the wrong mechanic. In general the people playing the themepark games are the ones that are quitting their jobs and leaving their spouses to play.

Anyway, I don't think we're making much progress in understanding each other's viewpoints, so we may as well end it here.

Uh... well that's fine but it's a bit uncouth to leave an argument AFTER you've made a bunch of points. It's like saying "here's why I'm right... now don't respond!"

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

8/21/13 2:33:17 PM#122
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Well I can't force you to have those feelings but if you actually want to understand WHY some people do like consequences upon death, then I'll tell you. It's really, really simple. Risk/reward. It's an innate human phenomenon that basically means the riskier the activity, the more rewarding the success. Once you learn about this very common concept, you should have no problem understanding why some people prefer games that have riskier atmospheres.

Or you can just have bigger rewards with a bigger challenge as a gate keeper of who gets it. The market has spoken, and this seems to be the dominant design now.

Sure, you can like your risk. It is your prerogative to like anything. Others have no obligation to feel the same. The market decides base on supply & demand.

Sorry but why are you quoting me for this post? Nothing you said contradicts what I said. In fact, I deliberately said I can't force him to do anything, but I would explain to him why some people do feel like that. So why are you telling me that others have no obligation to feel the same? I know that. He asked why people like it, I told him.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

8/21/13 2:40:04 PM#123
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Well I can't force you to have those feelings but if you actually want to understand WHY some people do like consequences upon death, then I'll tell you. It's really, really simple. Risk/reward. It's an innate human phenomenon that basically means the riskier the activity, the more rewarding the success. Once you learn about this very common concept, you should have no problem understanding why some people prefer games that have riskier atmospheres.

Or you can just have bigger rewards with a bigger challenge as a gate keeper of who gets it. The market has spoken, and this seems to be the dominant design now.

Sure, you can like your risk. It is your prerogative to like anything. Others have no obligation to feel the same. The market decides base on supply & demand.

Sorry but why are you quoting me for this post? Nothing you said contradicts what I said. In fact, I deliberately said I can't force him to do anything, but I would explain to him why some people do feel like that. So why are you telling me that others have no obligation to feel the same? I know that. He asked why people like it, I told him.

I am not disagreeing with what i quoted. I am just pointing out a different way of having rewards. And for the "no obligation" sentence, i am merely re-stating for effect, and clarity. I was not trying to imply that you do not know it.

In fact, it is echoing what you have said.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

8/21/13 2:50:20 PM#124
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Well I can't force you to have those feelings but if you actually want to understand WHY some people do like consequences upon death, then I'll tell you. It's really, really simple. Risk/reward. It's an innate human phenomenon that basically means the riskier the activity, the more rewarding the success. Once you learn about this very common concept, you should have no problem understanding why some people prefer games that have riskier atmospheres.

Or you can just have bigger rewards with a bigger challenge as a gate keeper of who gets it. The market has spoken, and this seems to be the dominant design now.

Sure, you can like your risk. It is your prerogative to like anything. Others have no obligation to feel the same. The market decides base on supply & demand.

Sorry but why are you quoting me for this post? Nothing you said contradicts what I said. In fact, I deliberately said I can't force him to do anything, but I would explain to him why some people do feel like that. So why are you telling me that others have no obligation to feel the same? I know that. He asked why people like it, I told him.

I am not disagreeing with what i quoted. I am just pointing out a different way of having rewards. And for the "no obligation" sentence, i am merely re-stating for effect, and clarity. I was not trying to imply that you do not know it.

In fact, it is echoing what you have said.

Yes, there are other ways of having rewards. And it's not like a game with harsh death penalties uses JUST the concept of risk/reward to reward their players. But the concept of risk/reward is the backbone of the desire for less forgiving games.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

8/21/13 2:53:08 PM#125
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Yes, there are other ways of having rewards. And it's not like a game with harsh death penalties uses JUST the concept of risk/reward to reward their players. But the concept of risk/reward is the backbone of the desire for less forgiving games.

When you say "risk/reward", you mean risk and/or rewards right? Because it is possible to do so with just one or the other. You do not always need both.

And you are right about harsh penalty. D3 hard core mode is as harsh as it gets. But it also let you tune the level of reward by changing the level of challenge with a difficulty slide. So multiple things can be in-play at the same time.

 

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

8/21/13 3:04:16 PM#126
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Yes, there are other ways of having rewards. And it's not like a game with harsh death penalties uses JUST the concept of risk/reward to reward their players. But the concept of risk/reward is the backbone of the desire for less forgiving games.

When you say "risk/reward", you mean risk and/or rewards right? Because it is possible to do so with just one or the other. You do not always need both.

And you are right about harsh penalty. D3 hard core mode is as harsh as it gets. But it also let you tune the level of reward by changing the level of challenge with a difficulty slide. So multiple things can be in-play at the same time.

 

No I mean risk AND reward. I mean that in general riskier situations feel more rewarding when you prevail. That's the backbone for wanting harsh death penalties. If you know the situation has consequences, people will tend to feel more satisfied and rewarded if they succeed in those situations.

 

2 problems with D3 hardcore mode: 

 

1. It's not an mmo setting. I enjoy the persistence of MMOs. I like building things other people can use and admire like rune library/vendor malls in UO. D3 doesn't have that. Just because we like the idea of risk/reward, doesn't mean we're going to play ANY game that has it.

 

2. It's too risky! Having an APPROPRIATE amount of risk compared to how long it takes to get these items or XP or whatever it is you're risking is totally key to the equation. If you have too little risk, people won't care as much because... there's no danger, there's nothing to worry about. If you have too MUCH risk, people won't care about it because it's futile. You spend hours and hours and hours and hours grinding for something only to have it lost in an instant... breaks the immersion. Obviously the level of risk to reward ratio changes from player to player, some people may like things super risky, some may like things not so risky, but it's important to have a good balance.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

8/21/13 3:09:25 PM#127
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Yes, there are other ways of having rewards. And it's not like a game with harsh death penalties uses JUST the concept of risk/reward to reward their players. But the concept of risk/reward is the backbone of the desire for less forgiving games.

When you say "risk/reward", you mean risk and/or rewards right? Because it is possible to do so with just one or the other. You do not always need both.

And you are right about harsh penalty. D3 hard core mode is as harsh as it gets. But it also let you tune the level of reward by changing the level of challenge with a difficulty slide. So multiple things can be in-play at the same time.

 

No I mean risk AND reward. I mean that in general riskier situations feel more rewarding when you prevail. That's the backbone for wanting harsh death penalties. If you know the situation has consequences, people will tend to feel more satisfied and rewarded if they succeed in those situations.

 

2 problems with D3 hardcore mode: 

 

1. It's not an mmo setting. I enjoy the persistence of MMOs. I like building things other people can use and admire like rune library/vendor malls in UO. D3 doesn't have that. Just because we like the idea of risk/reward, doesn't mean we're going to play ANY game that has it.

 

2. It's too risky! Having an APPROPRIATE amount of risk compared to how long it takes to get these items or XP or whatever it is you're risking is totally key to the equation. If you have too little risk, people won't care as much because... there's no danger, there's nothing to worry about. If you have too MUCH risk, people won't care about it because it's futile. You spend hours and hours and hours and hours grinding for something only to have it lost in an instant... breaks the immersion. Obviously the level of risk to reward ratio changes from player to player, some people may like things super risky, some may like things not so risky, but it's important to have a good balance.

Then i disagree. I think you can have reward with a level of challenge associated with it, without risk. Risk is *a* method to create that reward, but NOT the only one.

Both (1) & (2) are personal preferences. And i totally agree you don't have to like a game just because one aspect is to your liking. So i don't have a disagreement to (1) and (2) since that is your preference. In fact, it is too risky for me too. That is why i play soft-core.

 

 

  movindude

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/08
Posts: 102

8/21/13 3:11:24 PM#128
        Thx OP, your write up on EQ1 is exactlly what I also have been missing all these years. I hope EQ Next will be like EQ1. I gave up long ago (after a decade of waiting) for a game with that much excitement. I did have a rogue as one of my classes and loved retrieving players corpses. Most mobs couldn't see the rogue but some could so it was always exciting too. And my favorite "Train to zone, Train to zone"   in Mistmoore  :  )    The devs changed my name from Trustmee to I forgot, lame name, so I attacked guards in Freeport and left 50 corpses laying around the old auction area. Pissed them off big time. They would appear in front of my toon as a huge powerfull looking toon and try to lecture me. As a rogue I liked my 1 year old name of Trustmee...rambling on now it seems..still miss that game just needs to be revamped with AOC graphics and leave the old EQ game rules in. I would join in a sec.
  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

8/21/13 3:16:46 PM#129
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Yes, there are other ways of having rewards. And it's not like a game with harsh death penalties uses JUST the concept of risk/reward to reward their players. But the concept of risk/reward is the backbone of the desire for less forgiving games.

When you say "risk/reward", you mean risk and/or rewards right? Because it is possible to do so with just one or the other. You do not always need both.

And you are right about harsh penalty. D3 hard core mode is as harsh as it gets. But it also let you tune the level of reward by changing the level of challenge with a difficulty slide. So multiple things can be in-play at the same time.

 

No I mean risk AND reward. I mean that in general riskier situations feel more rewarding when you prevail. That's the backbone for wanting harsh death penalties. If you know the situation has consequences, people will tend to feel more satisfied and rewarded if they succeed in those situations.

 

2 problems with D3 hardcore mode: 

 

1. It's not an mmo setting. I enjoy the persistence of MMOs. I like building things other people can use and admire like rune library/vendor malls in UO. D3 doesn't have that. Just because we like the idea of risk/reward, doesn't mean we're going to play ANY game that has it.

 

2. It's too risky! Having an APPROPRIATE amount of risk compared to how long it takes to get these items or XP or whatever it is you're risking is totally key to the equation. If you have too little risk, people won't care as much because... there's no danger, there's nothing to worry about. If you have too MUCH risk, people won't care about it because it's futile. You spend hours and hours and hours and hours grinding for something only to have it lost in an instant... breaks the immersion. Obviously the level of risk to reward ratio changes from player to player, some people may like things super risky, some may like things not so risky, but it's important to have a good balance.

Then i disagree. I think you can have reward with a level of challenge associated with it, without risk. Risk is *a* method to create that reward, but NOT the only one.

Ugh. You misunderstand. I've never said the only way to have reward is with risk. In fact I said the exact opposite just like... literally 20 minutes ago. But risk and reward is what I'm talking about. You can have reward without risk, you can have risk without reward. 

Both (1) & (2) are personal preferences. And i totally agree you don't have to like a game just because one aspect is to your liking. So i don't have a disagreement to (1) and (2) since that is your preference. In fact, it is too risky for me too. That is why i play soft-core.

I can't remember if it was you (I'm nearly certain it was) but somebody was making the point that we should just be happy with the other, non-mmo games that have harsh death penalties... like D3. MMOs with harsh death penalties don't really exist much anymore so we should stop asking for them on the forums and play games like D3.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

8/21/13 3:40:33 PM#130
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Ugh. You misunderstand. I've never said the only way to have reward is with risk. In fact I said the exact opposite just like... literally 20 minutes ago. But risk and reward is what I'm talking about. You can have reward without risk, you can have risk without reward. 

 

I can't remember if it was you (I'm nearly certain it was) but somebody was making the point that we should just be happy with the other, non-mmo games that have harsh death penalties... like D3. MMOs with harsh death penalties don't really exist much anymore so we should stop asking for them on the forums and play games like D3.

Ah ok ... no problem. We are now straight on the issue of risk.

It may be me. But i don't think i would ask people to actually play D3. What i would have said .. if i want to raise the issue .. is

a) D3 has a perma-death, it is an option if that is what you want,

b) there is no MMO with harsh death penalty, and i certainly agree that asking for them on a forum, is useless.

But i would not go as far to say you cannot express your preference. It is one thing to debate if it will result in a change (i do not), but i totally respect your right to state it. Just as i would state mine.

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1372

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

8/22/13 12:45:18 PM#131

I am going to assume:


Holop: played some type of pen and paper role playing game (which have heavy death penalties), and played earlier MMOs which closely represented those RPGs and hence also had death penalties).


Twrule: Never played pen and paper RPG (where you can spend weeks or months on a character only to see them die and be gone forever), and never played earlier MMOs that had harsh death penalties. Or, if he did play an MMO with a death penalty, he wasn't used to it and hated it. And, he may also have started gaming with a console.


Simply different life experiences lending to opposite opinions on the matter that can't be reconciled.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Torik

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

8/22/13 12:57:42 PM#132
Originally posted by Arclan

I am going to assume:


Holop: played some type of pen and paper role playing game (which have heavy death penalties), and played earlier MMOs which closely represented those RPGs and hence also had death penalties).


Twrule: Never played pen and paper RPG (where you can spend weeks or months on a character only to see them die and be gone forever), and never played earlier MMOs that had harsh death penalties. Or, if he did play an MMO with a death penalty, he wasn't used to it and hated it. And, he may also have started gaming with a console.


Simply different life experiences lending to opposite opinions on the matter that can't be reconciled.

I played a fair bit of pen and paper RPGs in my younger days and none of them had heavy death penalties.  If your character happened to die during a campaign, you simply rolled a new one for the next session and the GM adjusted the story to the fact.  The GM never had us replay last week's encounter just because one of the characters died. 

Heck, if your character died in a campaign, you could just bring him/her back when the next campaign started. 

Pen and Paper RPGs tend to be much closer to WoW in playstyle than a game like EQ or UO.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

8/22/13 12:59:33 PM#133
Originally posted by Arclan

I am going to assume:


Holop: played some type of pen and paper role playing game (which have heavy death penalties), and played earlier MMOs which closely represented those RPGs and hence also had death penalties).


Twrule: Never played pen and paper RPG (where you can spend weeks or months on a character only to see them die and be gone forever), and never played earlier MMOs that had harsh death penalties. Or, if he did play an MMO with a death penalty, he wasn't used to it and hated it. And, he may also have started gaming with a console.


Simply different life experiences lending to opposite opinions on the matter that can't be reconciled.

 

How about me? I played pnp RPG (AD&D) in grad school, and played UO beta and EQ. In fact, i also played a precursor of MMO called Kingdom of Drakkar.

And yet i hold a completely different opinion from Holop. I totally reject old classic MMO, and embrace f2p modern MMOs which are better games than virtual worlds.

 

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

8/22/13 2:36:02 PM#134
Originally posted by Arclan

I am going to assume:


Holop: played some type of pen and paper role playing game (which have heavy death penalties), and played earlier MMOs which closely represented those RPGs and hence also had death penalties).


Twrule: Never played pen and paper RPG (where you can spend weeks or months on a character only to see them die and be gone forever), and never played earlier MMOs that had harsh death penalties. Or, if he did play an MMO with a death penalty, he wasn't used to it and hated it. And, he may also have started gaming with a console.


Simply different life experiences lending to opposite opinions on the matter that can't be reconciled.

More or less, yeah. I'm a bit young to have played pnp games like d&d growing up, but I did play oldschool MMO's (particularly UO) and have always played d&d bioware games like baldur's gate. I later "discovered" pnp games and played d&d and mutants and masterminds.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1372

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

8/22/13 5:58:06 PM#135


Originally posted by Torik
Pen and Paper RPGs tend to be much closer to WoW in playstyle than a game like EQ or UO.

I suppose it all depends on the DM. The standard way to play PnP games is the character is gone/dead when he dies. If your level 7 fighter dies, he's gone and you have to reroll a level 1 character. If your DM let you immediately reroll another 7th level character then you weren't playing according to the rules, which is not a problem until you start suggesting that is how PnP is played; it isn't.



Originally posted by nariusseldon
How about me? I played pnp RPG (AD&D) in grad school, and played UO beta and EQ. In fact, i also played a precursor of MMO called Kingdom of Drakkar.

And yet i hold a completely different opinion from Holop. I totally reject old classic MMO, and embrace f2p modern MMOs which are better games than virtual worlds.



My friend, you put the out in outlier. :)

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4826

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/22/13 6:05:41 PM#136

Onlg on these boards.  I beleive there are more people like him and to an extent like me that are the norm, that tried the old school games, and while had fun, are having more fun in todays' games.

I beleive there are more old school gamers who like new games just as much if not more than old, than there are old school gamers that prefer the old school games.

Note in this post old school gamer is just someone who played the older games when there way new(ish) and is not referring to a particular playstyle reference.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

8/22/13 6:37:48 PM#137
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Onlg on these boards.  I beleive there are more people like him and to an extent like me that are the norm, that tried the old school games, and while had fun, are having more fun in todays' games.

I beleive there are more old school gamers who like new games just as much if not more than old, than there are old school gamers that prefer the old school games.

Note in this post old school gamer is just someone who played the older games when there way new(ish) and is not referring to a particular playstyle reference.

If you had to guess, of the two broad game types discussed here, sandbox or themepark, harsh death penalty or carebear-esque instancing etc, which do you think has more player retention and which has more turnover?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

8/22/13 6:40:07 PM#138
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon
How about me? I played pnp RPG (AD&D) in grad school, and played UO beta and EQ. In fact, i also played a precursor of MMO called Kingdom of Drakkar.

 

And yet i hold a completely different opinion from Holop. I totally reject old classic MMO, and embrace f2p modern MMOs which are better games than virtual worlds.

 


 


My friend, you put the out in outlier. :)

Sure .. i am not a sheep.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

8/22/13 6:40:50 PM#139
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Onlg on these boards.  I beleive there are more people like him and to an extent like me that are the norm, that tried the old school games, and while had fun, are having more fun in todays' games.

I beleive there are more old school gamers who like new games just as much if not more than old, than there are old school gamers that prefer the old school games.

Note in this post old school gamer is just someone who played the older games when there way new(ish) and is not referring to a particular playstyle reference.

If you had to guess, of the two broad game types discussed here, sandbox or themepark, harsh death penalty or carebear-esque instancing etc, which do you think has more player retention and which has more turnover?

which do you think attract the bigger audience?

 

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2021

8/22/13 6:50:07 PM#140
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Onlg on these boards.  I beleive there are more people like him and to an extent like me that are the norm, that tried the old school games, and while had fun, are having more fun in todays' games.

I beleive there are more old school gamers who like new games just as much if not more than old, than there are old school gamers that prefer the old school games.

Note in this post old school gamer is just someone who played the older games when there way new(ish) and is not referring to a particular playstyle reference.

If you had to guess, of the two broad game types discussed here, sandbox or themepark, harsh death penalty or carebear-esque instancing etc, which do you think has more player retention and which has more turnover?

which do you think attract the bigger audience?

Themeparks, for sure. In fact this scenario reminds me of the music industry. Dubstep, rap and pop music are clearly the biggest money makers at the moment. But I'm still listening to albums like The Wall and Dark Side of the Moon. I doubt as many people will be listening to Katy Perry 40 years from now. So yeah themeparks bring in the must customers right off the bat, but that doesn't mean they make the most money after all. And even if they do, I'm not making the argument that sandbox games will make more money, I'm making the case that they're better games. And player retention is a huge indicator of that.

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