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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Truly fun MMO's scare me...and have quests that are NOT scripted

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170 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20139

8/20/13 10:40:19 AM#81
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 but I wouldn't want a player like that in my game anyway. Somebody who can't enjoy and appreciate new and interesting features probably doesn't have the attention span to play a deep game anyway.

Whether you want a player like that is irrelevant unless you are a dev.

Devs decide what audience they want to go after.

 

 

Different games appeal to different people. You say gamers won't wait around for systems like that to be implemented, I say people like that aren't the target audience. It's like saying nobody should write an opera because most people prefer pop music and rap.

And how many operas are being written today, compared to pop music and rap?

Sure, there is always an audience. However, if it is tiny, it won't get much attention from the market, will it?

And again, my point is that devs decide what audience they want to go after, not you.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20139

8/20/13 10:41:28 AM#82
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Holophonist
 
Wrong on a couple accounts. The population got a small bump after tram but then started to decline less than a year later.

The population peaked in 2003, 3 years after Trammel. That's a fact confirmed by every single chart on every single website keeping such charts.

If you can't accept that, our discussion is over, since I have better things to do with my time that to argue with people making up their own data when the real one doesn't fit their agenda.

 

Facts can be twisted, just like you're doing right now. If you care about honest data analysis, you'll give up this ridiculous crusade about trammel helping UO. The population was declining except for things like expansions, particularly aos. "Peak" doesn't mean anything if it's not sustained, and it wasn't. Trends are what's important.

LOl .. it looks like you are twisting his facts.

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1441

8/20/13 10:51:10 AM#83
I agree OP. It's not so much fear but consequences to your actions. OP you should try darkfall uw...it has been a blast since I took the plunge last month. It isn't that you have huge corpse runs but you lose your stuff..adding a good amount of thrill and consequence to your actions. I'm not completely sold on full loot. I think inventory loot or the system Archeage has are more ideal. I don't give two sh*ts about pvp but this game provides that old school feeling that many of us have been craving.
  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2034

8/20/13 10:52:09 AM#84
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 but I wouldn't want a player like that in my game anyway. Somebody who can't enjoy and appreciate new and interesting features probably doesn't have the attention span to play a deep game anyway.

Whether you want a player like that is irrelevant unless you are a dev.

Devs decide what audience they want to go after.

 

 

Different games appeal to different people. You say gamers won't wait around for systems like that to be implemented, I say people like that aren't the target audience. It's like saying nobody should write an opera because most people prefer pop music and rap.

And how many operas are being written today, compared to pop music and rap?

Sure, there is always an audience. However, if it is tiny, it won't get much attention from the market, will it?

And again, my point is that devs decide what audience they want to go after, not you.

 

I never said there should be as many sandbox games as there are themeparks. But there should be accurate representation, and there isn't. There is in other aspects if life, like the opera scenario. The vast vast majority of people prefer top 40, but people who prefer other types of music still have something that suits them... we don't. Also there's a good chance that a lot of people who play shitty themepark games simply don't know any better because they haven't been exposed to sandbox games.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20139

8/20/13 11:14:22 AM#85
Originally posted by Holophonist

I never said there should be as many sandbox games as there are themeparks. But there should be accurate representation, and there isn't. There is in other aspects if life, like the opera scenario. The vast vast majority of people prefer top 40, but people who prefer other types of music still have something that suits them... we don't. Also there's a good chance that a lot of people who play shitty themepark games simply don't know any better because they haven't been exposed to sandbox games.

There is no fundamental reason why you should get what you want. Devs don't owe you any games. If the audience is too small, there is no support. That is just simple supply and demand, you like it or not. And the market is working as it should.

Music is cheap to produce. A garage + a website is all you need. MMO costs tens of millions.

And it is not always the case that any demand should be served. Locked room mysteries are no longer written in the US after the golden age in the 1930-50. The whole genre kind of die.

And no ... lots of people don't play sandbox because they are shitty games. I tried UO, EQ and Eve .. very bad, boring, no-fun (for me) games. You cannot argue taste and preferences. You don't seem to understand that what you think "shitty" is fun for others.

 

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/20/13 11:17:01 AM#86

Trammel released in 2000, UO peaked in 2003, not a big difference from 2001 but a bit, then the decline started.  Essentially held steady from 2001-2003 with marginal increase in 2003.

Now to argue about the accuracy

http://mmodata.net/

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20139

8/20/13 11:30:01 AM#87
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Trammel released in 2000, UO peaked in 2003, not a big difference from 2001 but a bit, then the decline started.  Essentially held steady from 2001-2003 with marginal increase in 2003.

Now to argue about the accuracy

http://mmodata.net/

Now i would love to see what holo has to say now he is faced with facts.

My guess, he is going to claim his opinion is going to be more valid than facts.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2034

8/20/13 11:39:51 AM#88
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Trammel released in 2000, UO peaked in 2003, not a big difference from 2001 but a bit, then the decline started.  Essentially held steady from 2001-2003 with marginal increase in 2003.

Now to argue about the accuracy

http://mmodata.net/

 

Sorry but are we even looking at the same graph? Gets a bump from tram then starts declining less than a year later. Then around the time of aos it gets another bump before it continues its descent. This is exactly what I described. Exactly.
  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/20/13 11:43:16 AM#89
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Trammel released in 2000, UO peaked in 2003, not a big difference from 2001 but a bit, then the decline started.  Essentially held steady from 2001-2003 with marginal increase in 2003.

Now to argue about the accuracy

http://mmodata.net/

 

Sorry but are we even looking at the same graph? Gets a bump from tram then starts declining less than a year later. Then around the time of aos it gets another bump before it continues its descent. This is exactly what I described. Exactly.

So gets a bump from tram, a significant bump, slightly decline at times, slight increase at times, peak in 2003, significant decline after.

If thats what you said than thats fine.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

Post trammel UO had 1.6 times the population of pretrammel UO for 3 years.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2034

8/20/13 11:43:34 AM#90
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist

I never said there should be as many sandbox games as there are themeparks. But there should be accurate representation, and there isn't. There is in other aspects if life, like the opera scenario. The vast vast majority of people prefer top 40, but people who prefer other types of music still have something that suits them... we don't. Also there's a good chance that a lot of people who play shitty themepark games simply don't know any better because they haven't been exposed to sandbox games.

There is no fundamental reason why you should get what you want. Devs don't owe you any games. If the audience is too small, there is no support. That is just simple supply and demand, you like it or not. And the market is working as it should.

Music is cheap to produce. A garage + a website is all you need. MMO costs tens of millions.

And it is not always the case that any demand should be served. Locked room mysteries are no longer written in the US after the golden age in the 1930-50. The whole genre kind of die.

And no ... lots of people don't play sandbox because they are shitty games. I tried UO, EQ and Eve .. very bad, boring, no-fun (for me) games. You cannot argue taste and preferences. You don't seem to understand that what you think "shitty" is fun for others.

 

 

I never said everybody who plays themeparks are doing so because they haven't tried sandboxes. I said its likely that its the case for a lot of them. Just because you personally have tried sandbox games and don't like them, doesn't mean that's the case for the other tens of millions of people playing wow and the like. I guarantee there are people playing non sandbox games because they don't know any better. You're denying that ANY people like that exist?
  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2034

8/20/13 11:44:50 AM#91
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Trammel released in 2000, UO peaked in 2003, not a big difference from 2001 but a bit, then the decline started.  Essentially held steady from 2001-2003 with marginal increase in 2003.

Now to argue about the accuracy

http://mmodata.net/

 

Sorry but are we even looking at the same graph? Gets a bump from tram then starts declining less than a year later. Then around the time of aos it gets another bump before it continues its descent. This is exactly what I described. Exactly.

So gets a bump from tram, a significant bump, slightly decline at times, slight increase at times, peak in 2003, significant decline after.

If thats what you said than thats fine.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

Except it didn't increase at times. After the initial bump it was all downhill or flat until the next shot in the arm.
  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/20/13 11:47:18 AM#92
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Trammel released in 2000, UO peaked in 2003, not a big difference from 2001 but a bit, then the decline started.  Essentially held steady from 2001-2003 with marginal increase in 2003.

Now to argue about the accuracy

http://mmodata.net/

 

Sorry but are we even looking at the same graph? Gets a bump from tram then starts declining less than a year later. Then around the time of aos it gets another bump before it continues its descent. This is exactly what I described. Exactly.

So gets a bump from tram, a significant bump, slightly decline at times, slight increase at times, peak in 2003, significant decline after.

If thats what you said than thats fine.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

Except it didn't increase at times. After the initial bump it was all downhill or flat until the next shot in the arm.

flat then for the majority, it still had ~1.6 times the population of pre-trammel.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2034

8/20/13 12:05:03 PM#93
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Trammel released in 2000, UO peaked in 2003, not a big difference from 2001 but a bit, then the decline started.  Essentially held steady from 2001-2003 with marginal increase in 2003.

Now to argue about the accuracy

http://mmodata.net/

 

Sorry but are we even looking at the same graph? Gets a bump from tram then starts declining less than a year later. Then around the time of aos it gets another bump before it continues its descent. This is exactly what I described. Exactly.

So gets a bump from tram, a significant bump, slightly decline at times, slight increase at times, peak in 2003, significant decline after.

If thats what you said than thats fine.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

Except it didn't increase at times. After the initial bump it was all downhill or flat until the next shot in the arm.

flat then for the majority, it still had ~1.6 times the population of pre-trammel.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

3 data points were flat and 3 were drops, with the last drop being a big one.. bigger than any seen during the pretram era. You call that holding steady? That's supposed to be trammel being a success? The way you're talking about it is what's wrong with developers nowadays... they're just interested in the quick buck, the "peak".
  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/20/13 12:16:24 PM#94
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Trammel released in 2000, UO peaked in 2003, not a big difference from 2001 but a bit, then the decline started.  Essentially held steady from 2001-2003 with marginal increase in 2003.

Now to argue about the accuracy

http://mmodata.net/

 

Sorry but are we even looking at the same graph? Gets a bump from tram then starts declining less than a year later. Then around the time of aos it gets another bump before it continues its descent. This is exactly what I described. Exactly.

So gets a bump from tram, a significant bump, slightly decline at times, slight increase at times, peak in 2003, significant decline after.

If thats what you said than thats fine.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

Except it didn't increase at times. After the initial bump it was all downhill or flat until the next shot in the arm.

flat then for the majority, it still had ~1.6 times the population of pre-trammel.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

3 data points were flat and 3 were drops, with the last drop being a big one.. bigger than any seen during the pretram era. You call that holding steady? That's supposed to be trammel being a success? The way you're talking about it is what's wrong with developers nowadays... they're just interested in the quick buck, the "peak".

Just under 250k before first half of 2001, drop of estimated 15k (around 240k to 225k) from before first half of 2001 to 3/4 of 2001.  Steady from 2/4 2001 to 2/4 2002, drop of estimated 15k (225k to 210k) from 3/4 2002 to just before 2003.  Increase of estimated 40k (210k to 250k) from just before 2003 to just before first half of 2003.

So a  drop of 15k in lss than than 6 months, followed by a year of steady, followed by a drop of 15k in less than 6 months, followed by an increase of 40k in less than 6 months is essentially holding steady.

So yes. That is trammel being a success, a full 1.6 times the population of pretrammel essentially holding steady for 2 years

I'm not making any assumptions of quick buck or developer plans.  I'm stating that the population rose by 1.6 after trammel, maintained for 2 years and had a slight peak in 2003.  Any assumptions are all yours.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2034

8/20/13 12:35:29 PM#95
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Trammel released in 2000, UO peaked in 2003, not a big difference from 2001 but a bit, then the decline started.  Essentially held steady from 2001-2003 with marginal increase in 2003.

Now to argue about the accuracy

http://mmodata.net/

 

Sorry but are we even looking at the same graph? Gets a bump from tram then starts declining less than a year later. Then around the time of aos it gets another bump before it continues its descent. This is exactly what I described. Exactly.

So gets a bump from tram, a significant bump, slightly decline at times, slight increase at times, peak in 2003, significant decline after.

If thats what you said than thats fine.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

Except it didn't increase at times. After the initial bump it was all downhill or flat until the next shot in the arm.

flat then for the majority, it still had ~1.6 times the population of pre-trammel.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

3 data points were flat and 3 were drops, with the last drop being a big one.. bigger than any seen during the pretram era. You call that holding steady? That's supposed to be trammel being a success? The way you're talking about it is what's wrong with developers nowadays... they're just interested in the quick buck, the "peak".

Just under 250k before first half of 2001, drop of estimated 15k (around 240k to 225k) from before first half of 2001 to 3/4 of 2001.  Steady from 2/4 2001 to 2/4 2002, drop of estimated 15k (225k to 210k) from 3/4 2002 to just before 2003.  Increase of estimated 40k (210k to 250k) from just before 2003 to just before first half of 2003.

So a  drop of 15k in lss than than 6 months, followed by a year of steady, followed by a drop of 15k in less than 6 months, followed by an increase of 40k in less than 6 months is essentially holding steady.

So yes. That is trammel being a success, a full 1.6 times the population of pretrammel essentially holding steady for 2 years

I'm not making any assumptions of quick buck or developer plans.  I'm stating that the population rose by 1.6 after trammel, maintained for 2 years and had a slight peak in 2003.  Any assumptions are all yours.

 

1. Where you say 15k it's probably more like 25k.

2. The 40k increase you mention is when AoS came out. Not fair to attribute that to trammel.

3. You're still not accounting for the trends. Sure the overall level was higher than pre trammel but that's only because of an obvious bubble that trammel created. Releasing trammel gave a boost to the number of subs and then those subs started to decline until they tried to stop the bleeding with AoS, which ultimately shared the same fate: a temporary boost, leading to an inevitable crash.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20139

8/20/13 12:38:20 PM#96
Originally posted by Holophonist

3 data points were flat and 3 were drops, with the last drop being a big one.. bigger than any seen during the pretram era. You call that holding steady? That's supposed to be trammel being a success? The way you're talking about it is what's wrong with developers nowadays... they're just interested in the quick buck, the "peak".

What are you reading?

I found 9 data points from 2000 (only ~150k) to the peak in 2001 with ~250k sub. Therei s a clear increase of 100k sub ... 66% from 2000 to the peak.

 

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/20/13 12:50:33 PM#97
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Trammel released in 2000, UO peaked in 2003, not a big difference from 2001 but a bit, then the decline started.  Essentially held steady from 2001-2003 with marginal increase in 2003.

Now to argue about the accuracy

http://mmodata.net/

 

Sorry but are we even looking at the same graph? Gets a bump from tram then starts declining less than a year later. Then around the time of aos it gets another bump before it continues its descent. This is exactly what I described. Exactly.

So gets a bump from tram, a significant bump, slightly decline at times, slight increase at times, peak in 2003, significant decline after.

If thats what you said than thats fine.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

Except it didn't increase at times. After the initial bump it was all downhill or flat until the next shot in the arm.

flat then for the majority, it still had ~1.6 times the population of pre-trammel.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

3 data points were flat and 3 were drops, with the last drop being a big one.. bigger than any seen during the pretram era. You call that holding steady? That's supposed to be trammel being a success? The way you're talking about it is what's wrong with developers nowadays... they're just interested in the quick buck, the "peak".

Just under 250k before first half of 2001, drop of estimated 15k (around 240k to 225k) from before first half of 2001 to 3/4 of 2001.  Steady from 2/4 2001 to 2/4 2002, drop of estimated 15k (225k to 210k) from 3/4 2002 to just before 2003.  Increase of estimated 40k (210k to 250k) from just before 2003 to just before first half of 2003.

So a  drop of 15k in lss than than 6 months, followed by a year of steady, followed by a drop of 15k in less than 6 months, followed by an increase of 40k in less than 6 months is essentially holding steady.

So yes. That is trammel being a success, a full 1.6 times the population of pretrammel essentially holding steady for 2 years

I'm not making any assumptions of quick buck or developer plans.  I'm stating that the population rose by 1.6 after trammel, maintained for 2 years and had a slight peak in 2003.  Any assumptions are all yours.

 

1. Where you say 15k it's probably more like 25k.

2. The 40k increase you mention is when AoS came out. Not fair to attribute that to trammel.

3. You're still not accounting for the trends. Sure the overall level was higher than pre trammel but that's only because of an obvious bubble that trammel created. Releasing trammel gave a boost to the number of subs and then those subs started to decline until they tried to stop the bleeding with AoS, which ultimately shared the same fate: a temporary boost, leading to an inevitable crash.

1.  The chart clearly shows less than 250 and the next one is at 225, so it cannot be 25k.

2.  I didn't attribute it to trammel, I stated the peak happened after trammel.  Thats it.

3.  Now you are using conjecture saying it was just a bubble.  That bubble that you say, lasted for more than 2 years, that is a good bubble. 

There was a slight decline, then held steady for a year , followed by a slight decline, than increase of more than both slight declines put together.

I don't know what would have happened had trammel not released that is conjecture.  All we can state is that after trammel there was a significant increase in the population, then held steady for approximately 2 years, then started to decline. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20139

8/20/13 12:53:13 PM#98
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

2.  I didn't attribute it to trammel, I stated the peak happened after trammel.  Thats it.

3.  Now you are using conjecture saying it was just a bubble.  That bubble that you say, lasted for more than 2 years, that is a good bubble. 

This two points are very clear, and well supported by the graph.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2034

8/20/13 1:46:29 PM#99
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Trammel released in 2000, UO peaked in 2003, not a big difference from 2001 but a bit, then the decline started.  Essentially held steady from 2001-2003 with marginal increase in 2003.

Now to argue about the accuracy

http://mmodata.net/

 

Sorry but are we even looking at the same graph? Gets a bump from tram then starts declining less than a year later. Then around the time of aos it gets another bump before it continues its descent. This is exactly what I described. Exactly.

So gets a bump from tram, a significant bump, slightly decline at times, slight increase at times, peak in 2003, significant decline after.

If thats what you said than thats fine.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

Except it didn't increase at times. After the initial bump it was all downhill or flat until the next shot in the arm.

flat then for the majority, it still had ~1.6 times the population of pre-trammel.  It still did peak in 2003, 3 years after trammel, it still did essentially hold steady for 2 years. 

 

3 data points were flat and 3 were drops, with the last drop being a big one.. bigger than any seen during the pretram era. You call that holding steady? That's supposed to be trammel being a success? The way you're talking about it is what's wrong with developers nowadays... they're just interested in the quick buck, the "peak".

Just under 250k before first half of 2001, drop of estimated 15k (around 240k to 225k) from before first half of 2001 to 3/4 of 2001.  Steady from 2/4 2001 to 2/4 2002, drop of estimated 15k (225k to 210k) from 3/4 2002 to just before 2003.  Increase of estimated 40k (210k to 250k) from just before 2003 to just before first half of 2003.

So a  drop of 15k in lss than than 6 months, followed by a year of steady, followed by a drop of 15k in less than 6 months, followed by an increase of 40k in less than 6 months is essentially holding steady.

So yes. That is trammel being a success, a full 1.6 times the population of pretrammel essentially holding steady for 2 years

I'm not making any assumptions of quick buck or developer plans.  I'm stating that the population rose by 1.6 after trammel, maintained for 2 years and had a slight peak in 2003.  Any assumptions are all yours.

 

1. Where you say 15k it's probably more like 25k.

2. The 40k increase you mention is when AoS came out. Not fair to attribute that to trammel.

3. You're still not accounting for the trends. Sure the overall level was higher than pre trammel but that's only because of an obvious bubble that trammel created. Releasing trammel gave a boost to the number of subs and then those subs started to decline until they tried to stop the bleeding with AoS, which ultimately shared the same fate: a temporary boost, leading to an inevitable crash.

1.  The chart clearly shows less than 250 and the next one is at 225, so it cannot be 25k.

It's slightly under 250 and then 2 data points later it's basically at, maybe slightly below 225.... that equals 25, not 15. Even if it's not exactly 25, it's closer to 25 than 15.

2.  I didn't attribute it to trammel, I stated the peak happened after trammel.  Thats it.

No you outlined what happened on the graph and then said "So yeah trammel was a success" and one of the things you mentioned was the 40k increase. Why mention the 40k increase at all, if it's not related to trammel? That's what we're talking about, what effect trammel had on the game.

3.  Now you are using conjecture saying it was just a bubble.  That bubble that you say, lasted for more than 2 years, that is a good bubble. 

What do you mean lasted for more than 2 years? The decline started about a year after Trammel was implemented. The only time it reversed its decline was when AOS was introduced. 

There was a slight decline, then held steady for a year , followed by a slight decline, than increase of more than both slight declines put together.

See? You're using that increase as an argument for what exactly? For AOS? Why are you counting that increase as anything? The discussion is about trammel.

I don't know what would have happened had trammel not released that is conjecture.  All we can state is that after trammel there was a significant increase in the population, then held steady for approximately 2 years, then started to decline. 

Yeah this is just not true at all and I hope your chosen profession doesn't involve data analysis. Dropping 50k subs with no increases isn't "holding steady." The decline starts around Q2 2001, the only time that decline is reversed is when AOS is implemented, which boosts the subs again until it RESUMES its decline, this time indefinitely. 

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/20/13 2:14:13 PM#100

Slightly under 250 on a graph that size is close to 240, then at 225 is not 25, it is less than 25.  Likely closer to 15.

Trammel was a success.  The population grew to 1.6 times the size pre-trammel and held relatively stable positions for 2 years.  That is a success.

The peak happened 3 years after trammel, as we’ve stated all along.  I didn’t state why only what was, you said it peaked in 2001, that was wrong.  It didn’t, it peaked in 2003.

The trammel effect was to grow the population to1.6 times the size pre-trammel.

Would they have had the same peak in 2003 without it?  I don’t know, I think likely not though, why?  because once again, trammel increased the popluation to 1.6 times the size

Trammel released in 2003 it rose in 2001, dipped a bit in 2001, stayed steady for a year, dipped a bit in 2002, then peaked in 2003.  That is 3 years.  After the initial height in 2001, then to 2003 it is 2 years.  So it is 3 years from trammel release to peak, and 2 years from initial trammel heights to peak.

I’m using this statement to show the peak happened in 2003, not in 2001 as you stated.

Increasing 100k subs in one year, then over 2 years (dropping 15ksubs in 6 months, holding steady for a year, dropping another 15k subs, then increasing 40 k subs), is holding steady.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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