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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Truly fun MMO's scare me...and have quests that are NOT scripted

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170 posts found
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2605

There... are... four... lights!

8/20/13 7:22:09 AM#61

The MMORPG industry works exactly like everything else on the planet... money is invested where a benefit is certain.

You can't expect an investor to spend millions on a crap movie made by a newbie director with a boring to tears script. Same for video games. Investors give money to projects that will entertain enough people to make it viable, fun games that people will want to play, and not to niche games only played by a few afficionados who have a higher than average tolerance for tedium and repetitive tasks.

If that's the kind of games you're looking for, you will have to go for lower quality "Indie" games.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

8/20/13 7:31:37 AM#62
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

The MMORPG industry works exactly like everything else on the planet... money is invested where a benefit is certain.

You can't expect an investor to spend millions on a crap movie made by a newbie director with a boring to tears script. Same for video games. Investors give money to projects that will entertain enough people to make it viable, fun games that people will want to play, and not to niche games only played by a few afficionados who have a higher than average tolerance for tedium and repetitive tasks.

If that's the kind of games you're looking for, you will have to go for lower quality "Indie" games.

I agreed with everything until you said investors don't give money to niche games. Investors give money to everything if a market is untapped. It's not like all investors only give money to the most profitable venture. Even if people who want games with harsh death penalties are outnumber by people who don't, if the people who want harsh death penalties aren't being catered to at a level commensurate with their population, somebody will eventually come in and scoop up that easy money.

 

That's the point of talking about it on the forums... so developers can see that there is a market for certain types of games. And as I've pointed out, we already see some games on the horizon that at least claim to be what some of us what.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2605

There... are... four... lights!

8/20/13 7:35:01 AM#63
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

The MMORPG industry works exactly like everything else on the planet... money is invested where a benefit is certain.

You can't expect an investor to spend millions on a crap movie made by a newbie director with a boring to tears script. Same for video games. Investors give money to projects that will entertain enough people to make it viable, fun games that people will want to play, and not to niche games only played by a few afficionados who have a higher than average tolerance for tedium and repetitive tasks.

If that's the kind of games you're looking for, you will have to go for lower quality "Indie" games.

I agreed with everything until you said investors don't give money to niche games. Investors give money to everything if a market is untapped. It's not like all investors only give money to the most profitable venture. Even if people who want games with harsh death penalties are outnumber by people who don't, if the people who want harsh death penalties aren't being catered to at a level commensurate with their population, somebody will eventually come in and scoop up that easy money.

 

That's the point of talking about it on the forums... so developers can see that there is a market for certain types of games. And as I've pointed out, we already see some games on the horizon that at least claim to be what some of us what.

Investors will give money to "niche games" once they have proven themself. Like EvE, or Minecraft. Minecraft actually has a harsh death penalty... but this wouldn't work in a MMORPG.

I know what you're trying to say, but if you think there's a viable market for a high budgets FFA PvP game with a harsh death penalty, then sorry to say it, but in my opinion, you take your wishes for reality.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

8/20/13 7:39:50 AM#64
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

The MMORPG industry works exactly like everything else on the planet... money is invested where a benefit is certain.

You can't expect an investor to spend millions on a crap movie made by a newbie director with a boring to tears script. Same for video games. Investors give money to projects that will entertain enough people to make it viable, fun games that people will want to play, and not to niche games only played by a few afficionados who have a higher than average tolerance for tedium and repetitive tasks.

If that's the kind of games you're looking for, you will have to go for lower quality "Indie" games.

I agreed with everything until you said investors don't give money to niche games. Investors give money to everything if a market is untapped. It's not like all investors only give money to the most profitable venture. Even if people who want games with harsh death penalties are outnumber by people who don't, if the people who want harsh death penalties aren't being catered to at a level commensurate with their population, somebody will eventually come in and scoop up that easy money.

 

That's the point of talking about it on the forums... so developers can see that there is a market for certain types of games. And as I've pointed out, we already see some games on the horizon that at least claim to be what some of us what.

Investors will give money to "niche games" once they have proven themself. Like EvE, or Minecraft. Minecraft actually has a harsh death penalty... but this wouldn't work in a MMORPG.

I know what you're trying to say, but if you think there's a viable market for a high budgets FFA PvP game with a harsh death penalty, then sorry to say it, but in my opinion, you take your wishes for reality.

Well the OP is just talking about a harsh death penalty, though obviously I personally would prefer ow pvp. And I don't see why there wouldn't be a market for one... none have ever failed. Not a real sandbox with a good system in place.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2605

There... are... four... lights!

8/20/13 7:55:25 AM#65
Originally posted by Holophonist

Well the OP is just talking about a harsh death penalty, though obviously I personally would prefer ow pvp. And I don't see why there wouldn't be a market for one... none have ever failed. Not a real sandbox with a good system in place.

Ultima Online: failed, had to patch in Trammel to survive.

AC1: The Darktide server was 8% of the total's game population at its prime, the game wouldn't have survived without the PvE servers.

DAoC-Mordred: failed.

Shadowbane: failed.

Darkfall/DFUW: failed and remain niche games with poor production quality made by an indie developer.

Mortal Online: failed.

The only games which succeeded are EvE, and that's because the developers were good enough to add that great mechanic called security levels, which means it's not FFA PvP, but controlled world PvP, and Lineage 2, for similar reasons and also because of it's huge following in Asia.

Fact is, all the attempts at western AAA FFA PvP games have either failed or had to patch in PvE servers in a hurry to save the game. Why would an investor invest in such an unreliable market? Not to mention EvE already owns the market...

The future will be about choices, as the past told developers. PvP and PvE servers. Pure FFA PvP games will remain niche games made by small companies with poor production quality (aka bad animations, poor balance, arrogant noob developers not knowing what's good for their own game).

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  dontadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1044

8/20/13 8:03:37 AM#66

It's not the fear of death that scares you, it's the fear of failing.  A mechanic that few games have ever got right.  Sorry, old school death in the form of losing long periods of time was not scary, it was just frustrating. 

The problem is is that forever in the video game world if you died you could always start over. I think Guild Wars 1 had the best death effect and I truly hope that some company brings it back with a slight enhancement. When you die in an area or on a quest, you simply can not go back to that area for sometime or that quest for sometime. Perhaps even having long quest chains where you have to start over from the beginning.  

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/20/13 8:04:27 AM#67
Originally posted by Holophonist
I agree that the sandbox renaissance that we're currently seeing is probably going to be disappointing to people who want good sandbox games.

Since their expectations of Sandbox magic powers tends to be on the level of "cures cancer and earns the Nobel Prize", that pretty much goes without saying.

Bullet point of the year, for this year. Next year the marketing pundits will decide some other gimmick sells the most boxes.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

8/20/13 9:27:56 AM#68
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Holophonist

Well the OP is just talking about a harsh death penalty, though obviously I personally would prefer ow pvp. And I don't see why there wouldn't be a market for one... none have ever failed. Not a real sandbox with a good system in place.

Ultima Online: failed, had to patch in Trammel to survive.

AC1: The Darktide server was 8% of the total's game population at its prime, the game wouldn't have survived without the PvE servers.

DAoC-Mordred: failed.

Shadowbane: failed.

Darkfall/DFUW: failed and remain niche games with poor production quality made by an indie developer.

Mortal Online: failed.

The only games which succeeded are EvE, and that's because the developers were good enough to add that great mechanic called security levels, which means it's not FFA PvP, but controlled world PvP, and Lineage 2, for similar reasons and also because of it's huge following in Asia.

Fact is, all the attempts at western AAA FFA PvP games have either failed or had to patch in PvE servers in a hurry to save the game. Why would an investor invest in such an unreliable market? Not to mention EvE already owns the market...

The future will be about choices, as the past told developers. PvP and PvE servers. Pure FFA PvP games will remain niche games made by small companies with poor production quality (aka bad animations, poor balance, arrogant noob developers not knowing what's good for their own game).

 

I can totally believe that UO was starting to lose subs because of rampant pking, but I have to say it's pretty absurd to assume the ONlY course of action was one of the most massive changes to a system in mmo history. They could have done a number of sandbox solutions like a better bounty system, jailing, etc. UO did relatively little by way of actively deterring griefing. Totally inaccurate to count that as a failure on the part of ow pvp and especially on the part of harsh death penalties. But I'm sure you'll keep using it as such anyway.

darkfall is an even more absurd example. That game isn't a sandbox...like at all. It's a big pvp arena with some harvesting and crafting. It also does essentially nothing to deter griefing.



same with mortal online. Basically no system in place to keep people in the up and up.

shadowbane I can't say because I didn't play it. I know some people who did and I'm sure they'd have similar examples.

so please point me to some reasonable examples of games with good systems in place that have failed. You won't find any because the mmo genre took the easy money path with themeparks and the lazy choice of just turning off pvp instead of developing deeper, more organic, more sandbox solutions.
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2605

There... are... four... lights!

8/20/13 9:38:29 AM#69
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Holophonist

Well the OP is just talking about a harsh death penalty, though obviously I personally would prefer ow pvp. And I don't see why there wouldn't be a market for one... none have ever failed. Not a real sandbox with a good system in place.

Ultima Online: failed, had to patch in Trammel to survive.

AC1: The Darktide server was 8% of the total's game population at its prime, the game wouldn't have survived without the PvE servers.

DAoC-Mordred: failed.

Shadowbane: failed.

Darkfall/DFUW: failed and remain niche games with poor production quality made by an indie developer.

Mortal Online: failed.

The only games which succeeded are EvE, and that's because the developers were good enough to add that great mechanic called security levels, which means it's not FFA PvP, but controlled world PvP, and Lineage 2, for similar reasons and also because of it's huge following in Asia.

Fact is, all the attempts at western AAA FFA PvP games have either failed or had to patch in PvE servers in a hurry to save the game. Why would an investor invest in such an unreliable market? Not to mention EvE already owns the market...

The future will be about choices, as the past told developers. PvP and PvE servers. Pure FFA PvP games will remain niche games made by small companies with poor production quality (aka bad animations, poor balance, arrogant noob developers not knowing what's good for their own game).

 

I can totally believe that UO was starting to lose subs because of rampant pking, but I have to say it's pretty absurd to assume the ONlY course of action was one of the most massive changes to a system in mmo history. They could have done a number of sandbox solutions like a better bounty system, jailing, etc. UO did relatively little by way of actively deterring griefing. Totally inaccurate to count that as a failure on the part of ow pvp and especially on the part of harsh death penalties. But I'm sure you'll keep using it as such anyway.

darkfall is an even more absurd example. That game isn't a sandbox...like at all. It's a big pvp arena with some harvesting and crafting. It also does essentially nothing to deter griefing.



same with mortal online. Basically no system in place to keep people in the up and up.

shadowbane I can't say because I didn't play it. I know some people who did and I'm sure they'd have similar examples.

so please point me to some reasonable examples of games with good systems in place that have failed. You won't find any because the mmo genre took the easy money path with themeparks and the lazy choice of just turning off pvp instead of developing deeper, more organic, more sandbox solutions.

You won't make reality change by trying to change facts to fit your own agenda. And the undeniable fact is that every single attempt at a western AAA FFA PvP MMORPG so far failed. You can pull out your 'armchair developer" stance and pretend you'd have done it better, with whatever more "sandbox" features, the fact remains, undeniable, inalterable, not opinion, but hard fact, that they all failed.

I know you will never accept that the very, very vast majority doesn't enjoy being a low level canon fodder to some bored max level no life teenager in his basement and prefers to have its gaming time being fun and constructive, but that's still reality.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19158

8/20/13 9:57:20 AM#70
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

 

I can totally believe that UO was starting to lose subs because of rampant pking, but I have to say it's pretty absurd to assume the ONlY course of action was one of the most massive changes to a system in mmo history.
Not the ONLY cost, but the most successful, and cost effective one. Players don't have the patience for a game to try and iterate on "prison" and "bounty" system. If the game is not fun because of PK, players will go somewhere else right away.
  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

8/20/13 10:06:44 AM#71
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Holophonist

Well the OP is just talking about a harsh death penalty, though obviously I personally would prefer ow pvp. And I don't see why there wouldn't be a market for one... none have ever failed. Not a real sandbox with a good system in place.

Ultima Online: failed, had to patch in Trammel to survive.

AC1: The Darktide server was 8% of the total's game population at its prime, the game wouldn't have survived without the PvE servers.

DAoC-Mordred: failed.

Shadowbane: failed.

Darkfall/DFUW: failed and remain niche games with poor production quality made by an indie developer.

Mortal Online: failed.

The only games which succeeded are EvE, and that's because the developers were good enough to add that great mechanic called security levels, which means it's not FFA PvP, but controlled world PvP, and Lineage 2, for similar reasons and also because of it's huge following in Asia.

Fact is, all the attempts at western AAA FFA PvP games have either failed or had to patch in PvE servers in a hurry to save the game. Why would an investor invest in such an unreliable market? Not to mention EvE already owns the market...

The future will be about choices, as the past told developers. PvP and PvE servers. Pure FFA PvP games will remain niche games made by small companies with poor production quality (aka bad animations, poor balance, arrogant noob developers not knowing what's good for their own game).

 

I can totally believe that UO was starting to lose subs because of rampant pking, but I have to say it's pretty absurd to assume the ONlY course of action was one of the most massive changes to a system in mmo history. They could have done a number of sandbox solutions like a better bounty system, jailing, etc. UO did relatively little by way of actively deterring griefing. Totally inaccurate to count that as a failure on the part of ow pvp and especially on the part of harsh death penalties. But I'm sure you'll keep using it as such anyway.

darkfall is an even more absurd example. That game isn't a sandbox...like at all. It's a big pvp arena with some harvesting and crafting. It also does essentially nothing to deter griefing.



same with mortal online. Basically no system in place to keep people in the up and up.

shadowbane I can't say because I didn't play it. I know some people who did and I'm sure they'd have similar examples.

so please point me to some reasonable examples of games with good systems in place that have failed. You won't find any because the mmo genre took the easy money path with themeparks and the lazy choice of just turning off pvp instead of developing deeper, more organic, more sandbox solutions.

You won't make reality change by trying to change facts to fit your own agenda. And the undeniable fact is that every single attempt at a western AAA FFA PvP MMORPG so far failed. You can pull out your 'armchair developer" stance and pretend you'd have done it better, with whatever more "sandbox" features, the fact remains, undeniable, inalterable, not opinion, but hard fact, that they all failed.

I know you will never accept that the very, very vast majority doesn't enjoy being a low level canon fodder to some bored max level no life teenager in his basement and prefers to have its gaming time being fun and constructive, but that's still reality.

 

So what I'm hearing is you have no examples... except eve which is a success. You say eve is different because of the security system, but even in games like darkfall you are 100% safe in town. eve is indeed an ow pvp loot sandbox game. Having security that will kill you if you attack another player isn't a problem for sandbox players.
  Jean-Luc_Picard

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8/20/13 10:08:30 AM#72
Originally posted by Holophonist
 
So what I'm hearing is you have no examples... except eve which is a success. You say eve is different because of the security system, but even in games like darkfall you are 100% safe in town. eve is indeed an ow pvp loot sandbox game. Having security that will kill you if you attack another player isn't a problem for sandbox players.

I won't repost the same examples I've posted in a previous message, because you can very well use that mouse wheel of yours to scroll up there.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Holophonist

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Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

8/20/13 10:13:56 AM#73
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

 

I can totally believe that UO was starting to lose subs because of rampant pking, but I have to say it's pretty absurd to assume the ONlY course of action was one of the most massive changes to a system in mmo history.
Not the ONLY cost, but the most successful, and cost effective one. Players don't have the patience for a game to try and iterate on "prison" and "bounty" system. If the game is not fun because of PK, players will go somewhere else right away.

 

This is basically just pure conjecture. That being said, it may be true for the massss that just flock from new themepark to new themepark, but I wouldn't want a player like that in my game anyway. Somebody who can't enjoy and appreciate new and interesting features probably doesn't have the attention span to play a deep game anyway.
  Jean-Luc_Picard

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8/20/13 10:19:34 AM#74
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

 

I can totally believe that UO was starting to lose subs because of rampant pking, but I have to say it's pretty absurd to assume the ONlY course of action was one of the most massive changes to a system in mmo history.
Not the ONLY cost, but the most successful, and cost effective one. Players don't have the patience for a game to try and iterate on "prison" and "bounty" system. If the game is not fun because of PK, players will go somewhere else right away.

 

This is basically just pure conjecture. That being said, it may be true for the massss that just flock from new themepark to new themepark, but I wouldn't want a player like that in my game anyway. Somebody who can't enjoy and appreciate new and interesting features probably doesn't have the attention span to play a deep game anyway.

UO peaked its population 3+ years after Trammel was introduced, and Trammel's gameplay was just as "deep" as Feluccia without the perma-ganking harming the economy and turning the whole game into a gank fest.

That's not "conjecture", that's facts. And I was there all the time from beta to post Trammel, so the "new players without attention span" assumption falls quite short with me.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Holophonist

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Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

8/20/13 10:23:13 AM#75
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Holophonist
 
So what I'm hearing is you have no examples... except eve which is a success. You say eve is different because of the security system, but even in games like darkfall you are 100% safe in town. eve is indeed an ow pvp loot sandbox game. Having security that will kill you if you attack another player isn't a problem for sandbox players.

I won't repost the same examples I've posted in a previous message, because you can very well use that mouse wheel of yours to scroll up there.

 

Those aren't examples of games with reasonable mechanisms in place to curb griefing. Seriously, how can you think that's a reasonable argument to make? My point is that no sandbox games have been done well and you point to examples of games that haven't been done well....?
  nariusseldon

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Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19158

8/20/13 10:29:43 AM#76
Originally posted by Holophonist
 but I wouldn't want a player like that in my game anyway. Somebody who can't enjoy and appreciate new and interesting features probably doesn't have the attention span to play a deep game anyway.

Whether you want a player like that is irrelevant unless you are a dev.

Devs decide what audience they want to go after.

 

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

8/20/13 10:32:16 AM#77
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

 

I can totally believe that UO was starting to lose subs because of rampant pking, but I have to say it's pretty absurd to assume the ONlY course of action was one of the most massive changes to a system in mmo history.
Not the ONLY cost, but the most successful, and cost effective one. Players don't have the patience for a game to try and iterate on "prison" and "bounty" system. If the game is not fun because of PK, players will go somewhere else right away.

 

This is basically just pure conjecture. That being said, it may be true for the massss that just flock from new themepark to new themepark, but I wouldn't want a player like that in my game anyway. Somebody who can't enjoy and appreciate new and interesting features probably doesn't have the attention span to play a deep game anyway.

UO peaked its population 3+ years after Trammel was introduced, and Trammel's gameplay was just as "deep" as Feluccia without the perma-ganking harming the economy and turning the whole game into a gank fest.

That's not "conjecture", that's facts. And I was there all the time from beta to post Trammel, so the "new players without attention span" assumption falls quite short with me.

 

Wrong on a couple accounts. The population got a small bump after tram but then started to decline less than a year later. The only exception to that decline were other shots in the arm like aos. But aside for desperation expansion, post trammel uo was basically in a perpetual decline the whole time. But that's how game development works now: shallow, boring gameplay, propped up by new gimmicks and "content."

Also sorry but removing ow pvp and looting absolutely removes depth from the game. Like... by definition. There's simply less to do and less to worry about. You completely remove things like anti-pk guilds and even pk guilds. You can say that removing those things from the game were necessary (they weren't), but you can't argue that it didn't remove depth with it.

Also I didn't say anything you said was conjecture. What narius said was conjecture though. He says people won't accept or wait around for new systems to be implemented.
  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

8/20/13 10:34:49 AM#78
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 but I wouldn't want a player like that in my game anyway. Somebody who can't enjoy and appreciate new and interesting features probably doesn't have the attention span to play a deep game anyway.

Whether you want a player like that is irrelevant unless you are a dev.

Devs decide what audience they want to go after.

 

 

Different games appeal to different people. You say gamers won't wait around for systems like that to be implemented, I say people like that aren't the target audience. It's like saying nobody should write an opera because most people prefer pop music and rap.
  Jean-Luc_Picard

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Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2605

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8/20/13 10:35:13 AM#79
Originally posted by Holophonist
 
Wrong on a couple accounts. The population got a small bump after tram but then started to decline less than a year later.

The population peaked in 2003, 3 years after Trammel. That's a fact confirmed by every single chart on every single website keeping such charts.

If you can't accept that, our discussion is over, since I have better things to do with my time that to argue with people making up their own data when the real one doesn't fit their agenda.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

8/20/13 10:39:34 AM#80
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Holophonist
 
Wrong on a couple accounts. The population got a small bump after tram but then started to decline less than a year later.

The population peaked in 2003, 3 years after Trammel. That's a fact confirmed by every single chart on every single website keeping such charts.

If you can't accept that, our discussion is over, since I have better things to do with my time that to argue with people making up their own data when the real one doesn't fit their agenda.

 

Facts can be twisted, just like you're doing right now. If you care about honest data analysis, you'll give up this ridiculous crusade about trammel helping UO. The population was declining except for things like expansions, particularly aos. "Peak" doesn't mean anything if it's not sustained, and it wasn't. Trends are what's important.
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