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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Truly fun MMO's scare me...and have quests that are NOT scripted

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170 posts found
  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

8/19/13 3:36:40 PM#41
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist

Yeah people complain about all of those things, but on the other side of those complaints there are people who PREFER them. Developers put things in their game based on what people say they want and based on technical limitations. That's just common sense.

That is why ranting here is useless. There are always those on the other side of those complaints of people who PREFER them.

Thank you for making my point.

 

No that's the exact opposite of your point. If there are people on the other side of what you want and you're the one that ISN'T letting people know what you want, guess what developers are going to do? If some people want A and tell everybody they want A, and other people want B but nobody says they want B.... why would developers NOT implement A over B?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/19/13 3:48:16 PM#42
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist

Yeah people complain about all of those things, but on the other side of those complaints there are people who PREFER them. Developers put things in their game based on what people say they want and based on technical limitations. That's just common sense.

That is why ranting here is useless. There are always those on the other side of those complaints of people who PREFER them.

Thank you for making my point.

 

No that's the exact opposite of your point. If there are people on the other side of what you want and you're the one that ISN'T letting people know what you want, guess what developers are going to do? If some people want A and tell everybody they want A, and other people want B but nobody says they want B.... why would developers NOT implement A over B?

Because all the rants are repetitive, and the horses are all dead.

Also because devs can look at actual behavior and make decisions. You don't think Blizz took world pvp out just because people rant about it, right? They took it out because it is not popular. Just like LFD is extremely popular so they put it in all dungeons.

You sound like ranting is informative. If you believe that, do you want to buy a bridge?

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

8/19/13 4:06:23 PM#43
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist

Yeah people complain about all of those things, but on the other side of those complaints there are people who PREFER them. Developers put things in their game based on what people say they want and based on technical limitations. That's just common sense.

That is why ranting here is useless. There are always those on the other side of those complaints of people who PREFER them.

Thank you for making my point.

 

No that's the exact opposite of your point. If there are people on the other side of what you want and you're the one that ISN'T letting people know what you want, guess what developers are going to do? If some people want A and tell everybody they want A, and other people want B but nobody says they want B.... why would developers NOT implement A over B?

Because all the rants are repetitive, and the horses are all dead.

Also because devs can look at actual behavior and make decisions. You don't think Blizz took world pvp out just because people rant about it, right? They took it out because it is not popular. Just like LFD is extremely popular so they put it in all dungeons.

You sound like ranting is informative. If you believe that, do you want to buy a bridge?

I never said anything about "ranting." The OP wasn't ranting at all. His was a calm, personal and reasonable post about his own desires. Making your preferences known is how developers, particularly small developers, can hone in on untapped markets and have a finger on the pulse of the community. Do you think it's just a coincidence that there's a resurgence in sandbox games in development recently?

 

EDIT: Also, that's the second time you've used the bridge joke. It didn't work then and it's not working now. 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

8/19/13 4:08:30 PM#44

Great post OP, and thanks for the interesting info about UO. I didn't know losing gear wasn't uncommon and replacing it was not a huge deal. I tried hard to play UO but had major framerate or lag issues; the game was simply unplayable. Which was sad considering I spent many hundreds of hours in Ultimate III and IV.

When second age came out, I intended to give UO another try; but stopped by gamecenter.com to check reviews; and EQ was front page news, so I tried that. No lag or framerate issues at all. I thought it was the same computer, too. Hmmm.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/19/13 4:14:29 PM#45
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

I never said anything about "ranting." The OP wasn't ranting at all. His was a calm, personal and reasonable post about his own desires. Making your preferences known is how developers, particularly small developers, can hone in on untapped markets and have a finger on the pulse of the community. Do you think it's just a coincidence that there's a resurgence in sandbox games in development recently?

And yet, it is beating the dead horse about the lack of death penalty. And these quotes:

"I miss it!!  I have not played a game in a LONG time that gave me the same feeling that UO and EQ did."

"I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long."

... are rants .. may be polite rants .. but rants nevertheless.

 

On the other issue, i don't think it is a coincidence. I think devs are trying different things now. Many try new things like Destiny (not even a MMO!) or MOBA, and a few is going back to older ideas. The market will decide who wins.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

8/19/13 4:19:38 PM#46

In my opinion, there are two parts to this: the perceived risk and the actual risk.

I am quite good at generating my own anxiety out of thin air - I don't actually need permadeath or other high penalities to make me fear for my character's life.  And I sometimes even miss out on content that is really risk-free just because I don't like the idea of suicide-exploration.

On the other side of the spectrum will be people with the exact opposite problem - their courage surpasses their strategic thinking and they will bankrupt their character with recklessness.

If you increase the actual risk, you make the shy players shier and the reckless players burn out faster.  If you lower the actual risk, the shy players may increase their comfort zone and the reckless players will play longer.  In other words - the reason things aren't finely balanced as a pure risk-reward calculation is that (for better or worse) not all of us are playing the games as a pure risk-reward calculation in the first place.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

8/19/13 4:24:35 PM#47
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

I never said anything about "ranting." The OP wasn't ranting at all. His was a calm, personal and reasonable post about his own desires. Making your preferences known is how developers, particularly small developers, can hone in on untapped markets and have a finger on the pulse of the community. Do you think it's just a coincidence that there's a resurgence in sandbox games in development recently?

And yet, it is beating the dead horse about the lack of death penalty. And these quotes:

"I miss it!!  I have not played a game in a LONG time that gave me the same feeling that UO and EQ did."

"I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long."

... are rants .. may be polite rants .. but rants nevertheless.

Neither of those are rants. Not even close. Saying what you like/don't like doesn't make something a rant.

 On the other issue, i don't think it is a coincidence. I think devs are trying different things now. Many try new things like Destiny (not even a MMO!) or MOBA, and a few is going back to older ideas. The market will decide who wins.

And that "something new" is based on what people want. They're not just randomly trying new things. Even games like Destiny are implementing features that players communicate that they want. MOBA's exist because people liked killing creeps in WC3 but didn't like the mechanic skill involved in macroing and multitasking. Game developers don't just do things randomly for no reason. They do things because people say they want those things. It may be time to just let go of your pride and admit this obvious and otherwise undisputed fact of product development.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/19/13 4:29:57 PM#48
Originally posted by Holophonist

And that "something new" is based on what people want. They're not just randomly trying new things. Even games like Destiny are implementing features that players communicate that they want. MOBA's exist because people liked killing creeps in WC3 but didn't like the mechanic skill involved in macroing and multitasking. Game developers don't just do things randomly for no reason. They do things because people say they want those things. It may be time to just let go of your pride and admit this obvious and otherwise undisputed fact of product development.

I never say devs do things for no reason. Specifically, money, and supply and demands are the reasons.

I think you are just blinded to the fact that many things people have ranted (or as you put it "express their desire") here day in and day out with little effect.

So you want to sound like you are doing something positive rather than just ranting. But sticking your head into the sand does not make it true.

But i suppose many here are used to sticking their head in the sand anyway.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

8/19/13 4:30:30 PM#49
Originally posted by maplestone

In my opinion, there are two parts to this: the perceived risk and the actual risk.

I am quite good at generating my own anxiety out of thin air - I don't actually need permadeath to make me fear for my character's life.  And I sometimes even miss out on content that is really risk-free just because I don't like the idea of suicide-exploration.

On the other side of the spectrum will be people with the exact opposite problem - their courage surpasses their strategic thinking and they will bankrupt their character with recklessness.

If you increase the actual risk, you make the shy players shier and the reckless players burn out faster.  If you lower the actual risk, the shy players may increase their comfort zone and the reckless players will play longer.  In other words - the reason things aren't finely balanced as a pure risk-reward calculation is that (for better or worse) not everyone is playing the game as a pure risk-reward calculation in the first place.

Why do you assume that if you lower the risk the "reckless players" will play longer? They may not play at all or play briefly until they realize it's not their type of game because it's too forgiving. And what do you mean by "reckless players"?

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

8/19/13 4:44:33 PM#50
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist

And that "something new" is based on what people want. They're not just randomly trying new things. Even games like Destiny are implementing features that players communicate that they want. MOBA's exist because people liked killing creeps in WC3 but didn't like the mechanic skill involved in macroing and multitasking. Game developers don't just do things randomly for no reason. They do things because people say they want those things. It may be time to just let go of your pride and admit this obvious and otherwise undisputed fact of product development.

I never say devs do things for no reason. Specifically, money, and supply and demands are the reasons.

Money is based on people buying their game. People buy their game if it has the features they like. They know what features they like by listening to them. Not every time, of course, but as a general rule that's how it works. Just because they're doing it for money doesn't mean they're not listening to people, it's the opposite.

I think you are just blinded to the fact that many things people have ranted (or as you put it "express their desire") here day in and day out with little effect.

I didn't say nobody has ranted. But OP wasn't ranting. And I'm not sure what you mean by "little effect." The things that people rant about on the internet make their way into games. Maybe the developers don't come here and PM you personally that they're doing it because they read your post, but it's not a coincidence that people whine about themepark games and demand more sandbox elements and now sandbox games are making a resurgence.

So you want to sound like you are doing something positive rather than just ranting. But sticking your head into the sand does not make it true.

But i suppose many here are used to sticking their head in the sand anyway.

I actually am not particularly emotionally invested in what happens with games. I have strong opinions about the kind of game I want, but I'm not heartbroken by any means when games like EQN and TESO turn out to not be what I'm looking for. It doesn't bother me.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/19/13 5:16:09 PM#51
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Money is based on people buying their game. People buy their game if it has the features they like. They know what features they like by listening to them. Not every time, of course, but as a general rule that's how it works. Just because they're doing it for money doesn't mean they're not listening to people, it's the opposite.

Yes. If someone want to impact game dev, vote with their dollars. The impact may not be big but at least it is not like posting on forums.

You really think they listen to people beating dead horses day in and day out? Again, we just have to agree to disagree.

 

  nottuned

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 95

8/19/13 5:26:41 PM#52

What's the purpose of playing a game you cannot loose?

The F2P crowd will slowly go the way of disco I have a feeling. Everybody was certain that was the next big thing too.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

8/19/13 5:27:37 PM#53
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Money is based on people buying their game. People buy their game if it has the features they like. They know what features they like by listening to them. Not every time, of course, but as a general rule that's how it works. Just because they're doing it for money doesn't mean they're not listening to people, it's the opposite.

Yes. If someone want to impact game dev, vote with their dollars. The impact may not be big but at least it is not like posting on forums.

You really think they listen to people beating dead horses day in and day out? Again, we just have to agree to disagree.

Yeah I think you're just confused about what it means when you say that developers do things because of the money. People VOTE with their dollars, I agree. But that's after the game is made. The game is made based on player feedback and what the community wants for a particular genre/game type. THEN people vote with their dollars.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

8/19/13 5:29:21 PM#54
Originally posted by nottuned

What's the purpose of playing a game you cannot loose?

The F2P crowd will slowly go the way of disco I have a feeling. Everybody was certain that was the next big thing too.

I agree. Unfortunately narius and others often enter the conversation from the angle of "why lose anything in a game?"

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1877

8/19/13 5:30:26 PM#55
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Money is based on people buying their game. People buy their game if it has the features they like. They know what features they like by listening to them. Not every time, of course, but as a general rule that's how it works. Just because they're doing it for money doesn't mean they're not listening to people, it's the opposite.

Yes. If someone want to impact game dev, vote with their dollars. The impact may not be big but at least it is not like posting on forums.

You really think they listen to people beating dead horses day in and day out? Again, we just have to agree to disagree.

Yeah I think you're just confused about what it means when you say that developers do things because of the money. People VOTE with their dollars, I agree. But that's after the game is made. The game is made based on player feedback and what the community wants for a particular genre/game type. THEN people vote with their dollars.

Exactly and that's why we have the games we have. Because people keep voting with their wallets and what they've voted for is making self proclaimed "hardcore" gamers cry.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

8/19/13 5:44:28 PM#56
Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

Money is based on people buying their game. People buy their game if it has the features they like. They know what features they like by listening to them. Not every time, of course, but as a general rule that's how it works. Just because they're doing it for money doesn't mean they're not listening to people, it's the opposite.

Yes. If someone want to impact game dev, vote with their dollars. The impact may not be big but at least it is not like posting on forums.

You really think they listen to people beating dead horses day in and day out? Again, we just have to agree to disagree.

Yeah I think you're just confused about what it means when you say that developers do things because of the money. People VOTE with their dollars, I agree. But that's after the game is made. The game is made based on player feedback and what the community wants for a particular genre/game type. THEN people vote with their dollars.

Exactly and that's why we have the games we have. Because people keep voting with their wallets and what they've voted for is making self proclaimed "hardcore" gamers cry.

So because the community chose themeparks, that means from now until the end of time only themepark games can be made? In reality, the genre is constantly changing and it's based on the cumulative impression the developers get from members of the community. Also more than 1 kind of game can be made at a time.

 

Also, I'm not crying.

 

Also, I probably am more of a "hardcore" gamer than you. I can't know for sure, partially because it's a somewhat nebulous term, and you haven't really defined it. It seems like I enjoy more unforgiving games than you, if that's what you mean. I know for the fact I enjoy more mechanically difficult games like sc2 and quake 3. So I guess it depends on what you mean by "hardcore", but if I had to guess I would say i probably am. You can say that's self proclaiming... I say it's just a calculated guess.

 

Also, there are a couple of responses to your prior contribution to this thread back on the second page if you care to respond to them.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/19/13 11:12:45 PM#57
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

So because the community chose themeparks, that means from now until the end of time only themepark games can be made? In reality, the genre is constantly changing and it's based on the cumulative impression the developers get from members of the community. Also more than 1 kind of game can be made at a time.

 

No. But it means that till the end of time, dollar is mightier than the word.
 

In fact, demand is already shifting to MOBAs, and many devs are jumping into MOBAs, because they can see the money there. And yes, more than 1 kind of games can be made. And which kind? Depends on how much the audience for the particular type is paying.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/19/13 11:13:32 PM#58
Originally posted by Rusque
 

Exactly and that's why we have the games we have. Because people keep voting with their wallets and what they've voted for is making self proclaimed "hardcore" gamers cry.

Yeah. The market works as expected. Millions are being entertained.

 

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

8/20/13 8:12:28 AM#59
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

So because the community chose themeparks, that means from now until the end of time only themepark games can be made? In reality, the genre is constantly changing and it's based on the cumulative impression the developers get from members of the community. Also more than 1 kind of game can be made at a time.

 

No. But it means that till the end of time, dollar is mightier than the word.
 

In fact, demand is already shifting to MOBAs, and many devs are jumping into MOBAs, because they can see the money there. And yes, more than 1 kind of games can be made. And which kind? Depends on how much the audience for the particular type is paying.

You somehow still don't get it. The dollar isn't in conflict with the word. It's not one or the other. Developers make money from people playing their games, and people play their games if it has the features they want in it, so it would seem to be an obvious choice for developers to pay attention to what people want.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

8/20/13 8:14:06 AM#60
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rusque
 

Exactly and that's why we have the games we have. Because people keep voting with their wallets and what they've voted for is making self proclaimed "hardcore" gamers cry.

Yeah. The market works as expected. Millions are being entertained.

 

Yes and millions aren't. That's where OP comes in... to let developers know that there is a market for harsher, more hardcore games. That's the point of posts like this. And obviously they're working because there ARE games coming out that at least claim to fill that role. I'm not sure why you guys are giving OP shit for merely stating his desires. That's how this process works, as I've pointed out like a dozen times.

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