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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Truly fun MMO's scare me...and have quests that are NOT scripted

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170 posts found
  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2000

8/19/13 11:27:43 AM#21
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist

So are you just being willfully ignorant about the fact that almost ALL of the money being spent on mmo's nowadays is being spent on mmo's that are too easy and too forgiving for our tastes? So what we're left with are highly flawed indie games and eve. I'm not sure what's so ridiculous about being upset that the mmo scene is so obviously trending in a way we don't like. If it were 95% ow pvp full loot games and 5% themeparks, I'm sure you'd feel differently.

No. I am saying he should look beyond MMOs.

Obviously ranting is not going to bring MMOs to your "taste". Unless he find ranting itself fun, there is no point. No one is changing their minds, nor the market changing its course, just because of some posts here.

 

 

But harsh death penalty is one aspect of the game. It's like saying you could make a pen and paper game with your little brother where death has harsh penalties. He's saying he wants an mmo with those things. And you're not the mmo whisperer, you stunt know what will or will not come from enough people making their desires known. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons we're seeing a shift away from themeparks and towards sandboxes. I'm sure it also has contributed to people making emulators kf oldschoold games like UO, shadowbane and swg.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/19/13 11:31:22 AM#22
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

 

But harsh death penalty is one aspect of the game. It's like saying you could make a pen and paper game with your little brother where death has harsh penalties. He's saying he wants an mmo with those things. And you're not the mmo whisperer, you stunt know what will or will not come from enough people making their desires known. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons we're seeing a shift away from themeparks and towards sandboxes. I'm sure it also has contributed to people making emulators kf oldschoold games like UO, shadowbane and swg.

And if that aspect is important enough, find it in other games. If not, live without it.

The reason you see a shift from themepark is because WOW has lost 4-5M subs. People have rant on this website for years. If you really believe that is causing the market to change, i have a bridge to sell you. i won't waste my time trying to change things here.

 

  Lourent

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/12
Posts: 18

8/19/13 11:33:31 AM#23
I've never felt afraid to die in a video game.  It is a video game, after all.  Not base jumping.  Now if instead of  "afraid of death"  you meant "bored of death," I could understand.  Death that leads to big time sinks.  No thanks.
  xeniar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 800

8/19/13 11:33:58 AM#24
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist

So are you just being willfully ignorant about the fact that almost ALL of the money being spent on mmo's nowadays is being spent on mmo's that are too easy and too forgiving for our tastes? So what we're left with are highly flawed indie games and eve. I'm not sure what's so ridiculous about being upset that the mmo scene is so obviously trending in a way we don't like. If it were 95% ow pvp full loot games and 5% themeparks, I'm sure you'd feel differently.

No. I am saying he should look beyond MMOs.

Obviously ranting is not going to bring MMOs to your "taste". Unless he find ranting itself fun, there is no point. No one is changing their minds, nor the market changing its course, just because of some posts here.

 

 

But harsh death penalty is one aspect of the game. It's like saying you could make a pen and paper game with your little brother where death has harsh penalties. He's saying he wants an mmo with those things. And you're not the mmo whisperer, you stunt know what will or will not come from enough people making their desires known. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons we're seeing a shift away from themeparks and towards sandboxes. I'm sure it also has contributed to people making emulators kf oldschoold games like UO, shadowbane and swg.

Some people don't understand what an MMO should be and dismiss it as entertainment. while MMO's should be virtual worlds. There is a shift towards sandbox the developers are hearing us, they are implementing the stuff they think we want. but alas they are doing it wrong. They focus too much on making a game. instead of letting us wander around and see for ourselves.

i hear ya m8. Death penatly's, no quest hubs etc etc

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/19/13 11:34:32 AM#25
Originally posted by Lourent
I've never felt afraid to die in a video game.  It is a video game, after all.  Not base jumping.  Now if instead of  "afraid of death"  you meant "bored of death," I could understand.  Death that leads to big time sinks.  No thanks.

Good point.

It is not fear of death. It is fear of wasting time to regrind stuff.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2000

8/19/13 11:45:20 AM#26
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

 

But harsh death penalty is one aspect of the game. It's like saying you could make a pen and paper game with your little brother where death has harsh penalties. He's saying he wants an mmo with those things. And you're not the mmo whisperer, you stunt know what will or will not come from enough people making their desires known. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons we're seeing a shift away from themeparks and towards sandboxes. I'm sure it also has contributed to people making emulators kf oldschoold games like UO, shadowbane and swg.

And if that aspect is important enough, find it in other games. If not, live without it.

The reason you see a shift from themepark is because WOW has lost 4-5M subs. People have rant on this website for years. If you really believe that is causing the market to change, i have a bridge to sell you. i won't waste my time trying to change things here.

 

 

So we can't have more than 1 criterion when deciding what game to play? How about you go play one of the many non-mmos that don't have harsh death penalties? If it's so important to you, then you should be able to settle for a non-mmo. And WoW losing millions of subs doesn't necessarily mean the market would move specifically towards sandbox games. Clearly games like The Repopulation, Embers of Caerus etc are being developed because people show an interest in it.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/19/13 11:49:17 AM#27
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

 

So we can't have more than 1 criterion when deciding what game to play? How about you go play one of the many non-mmos that don't have harsh death penalties? If it's so important to you, then you should be able to settle for a non-mmo. And WoW losing millions of subs doesn't necessarily mean the market would move specifically towards sandbox games. Clearly games like The Repopulation, Embers of Caerus etc are being developed because people show an interest in it.

Yes, you can have as many criteria as you want. However, it is moot if such a game does not exist. Either you don't play anything, or you have to relax and have fewer criteria.

Of course i play lots of non-MMOs that have no death penalties. i hope you don't think i only play MMO .. or that i am a mmo-only player.

And why would you think that it is important to me? I am just commenting that if harsh DP is important to the OP (which he stated), he should be more flexible in OTHER criteria if he wants to find a game.

 

  Zydari

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/08
Posts: 84

Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.
Plato

8/19/13 11:50:53 AM#28
I know what you mean. The rush you got in  EQ and UO in unknown areas due to the risks involved with death I have never experienced in any other game. Not sure I miss it though. 

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.

Thomas Jefferson

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/19/13 11:51:44 AM#29
Originally posted by xeniar
 

Some people don't understand what an MMO should be and dismiss it as entertainment. while MMO's should be virtual worlds. There is a shift towards sandbox the developers are hearing us, they are implementing the stuff they think we want. but alas they are doing it wrong. They focus too much on making a game. instead of letting us wander around and see for ourselves.

i hear ya m8. Death penatly's, no quest hubs etc etc

nah ... I don't believe MMOs should be anything. I think they are just entertainment. Here you go .. i "dismiss" it as entertainment and will treat them as such.

And i play many MMOs as solo games, and don't care if they are virtual worlds. I applaud devs if they make MMOs into better games. In fact, if they are not better games today than in the past (like UO & EQ .. yuck!), i won't even be here.

"wrong" for you. "Right" for me, and many others. Otherwise, why do you think the market grew?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/19/13 11:53:02 AM#30
Originally posted by Zydari
I know what you mean. The rush you got in  EQ and UO in unknown areas due to the risks involved with death I have never experienced in any other game. Not sure I miss it though. 

Oh i remember those risks. Risks of wasting time regrinding stuff.

I am glad that i can choose games without those "risks" today.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2000

8/19/13 12:05:01 PM#31
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

 

So we can't have more than 1 criterion when deciding what game to play? How about you go play one of the many non-mmos that don't have harsh death penalties? If it's so important to you, then you should be able to settle for a non-mmo. And WoW losing millions of subs doesn't necessarily mean the market would move specifically towards sandbox games. Clearly games like The Repopulation, Embers of Caerus etc are being developed because people show an interest in it.

Yes, you can have as many criteria as you want. However, it is moot if such a game does not exist. Either you don't play anything, or you have to relax and have fewer criteria.

Of course i play lots of non-MMOs that have no death penalties. i hope you don't think i only play MMO .. or that i am a mmo-only player.

And why would you think that it is important to me? I am just commenting that if harsh DP is important to the OP (which he stated), he should be more flexible in OTHER criteria if he wants to find a game.

 

 

So you're saying nobody should talk about the things they want? The type of game he's asking for doesnt exist so he shouldnt ask for it? As I've pointed out, games are indeed coming out at least partially because of people belly aching on forums.
  TheRealBanango

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/13
Posts: 74

8/19/13 12:42:39 PM#32

The OP makes a great point, and I agree with him but for a different reason.

The actual mechanic of death in UO and EQ has created a fear of death in the game that can be felt as you play, it gets your adrenaline pumping. It is something you can feel just like finally beating that boss after a week of raiding, you feel accomplished. When you finally get that rare bow off a boss and equip it, you feel proud. As long as a game is making you feel something then you will be engaged in it.

Now, with that being said, to the people that prefer to defeat the boss, get that rare weapon, or feel inspired when they explore a virtual landscape, All those things are limited in comparison to fear, they are finite. The bosses all get killed, the gear gets collected, and virtual worlds can only get so big. Death on the other hand doesn't require devs to put out new content. It will always be there no matter how long a game is being played for.

Some people don't like to be "punished" for dying because it's just a game and they want to have fun while they play it and not have it waste their time with corpse runs or whatever it is. Like you said...ITS JUST A GAME. The goal of the game is not to get the best gear or kill the most powerful boss, these are goals you have set yourself. If you go in with the mentality of just having fun with your friends then fear becomes fun. Getting murdered becomes exhilarating. Those 10 seconds when you and your friends hopelessly fight for your lives only to find 8 corpses on the ground becomes a story, and if that story ended in victory, the emotion felt is always greater because of what you went through, you know it wasn't easy.

Even LoL has a death penalty (respawn timer) that gets harsher as the game progresses. It adds to the replayability because when you are in a team fight you know that it matters. It matters because if you die, it is very likely that the other team is going to take the advantage on the battlefield due to you being dead for 30 seconds. You are focused, your heart is pumping, you don't want to die, and it is fun because it is just a game, so when you do die, it's not that big of a deal, no matter what you lost in game.

  User Deleted
8/19/13 12:43:29 PM#33

hmmm.... how should i put this... i come from the UO era, yeah sure dying had its bad side and it had its own type of fun.

but when did this thread turn into a debate between FFA OW PVP and other games

sure ffa ow pvp is the extreme hardcore end of the spectrum but thats not all the term "fear factor" includes atleast in my opinion.

sure there should be some kind of penalty in dying even Super mario bros wouldnt be what it is today if there wasnt dwindling lives and limited ammount of retries per session

i can accept ffa ow PvP if the gear is super easy to get and dirt cheap but still isnt a huge time sink

i like the idea of experience and level loss, but only to a point if i die 30 times in 60 minutes something is seriously wrong with the game.

Fear of death emerges naturaly if the game allows Deep character progression that takes hours and hours of gameplay and is more than levels and numbers. when one death can pull back the characters progression for hours.

and this depends on the gameplay if the gameplay is shallow this can be considered a useless time sink but if its deep the player can continue what he was doing before he died and degraded but this time with a party or 2

death penalty shouldnt be an obstacle (corpse runs)

same with level based quests, dying becomes an obstacle if the character loses levels upon death so what do we do? lets get rid of the leveling system all together! and make the experience loss affect skill experience and skill levels instead.

or something........ not like my opinion has any effect but well atleast i put it on the table

*edit to sum it up to few words, If death penalty becomes an obstacle to fun and "meaningfull" gameplay it is wrong

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/19/13 12:56:01 PM#34
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

 

So we can't have more than 1 criterion when deciding what game to play? How about you go play one of the many non-mmos that don't have harsh death penalties? If it's so important to you, then you should be able to settle for a non-mmo. And WoW losing millions of subs doesn't necessarily mean the market would move specifically towards sandbox games. Clearly games like The Repopulation, Embers of Caerus etc are being developed because people show an interest in it.

Yes, you can have as many criteria as you want. However, it is moot if such a game does not exist. Either you don't play anything, or you have to relax and have fewer criteria.

Of course i play lots of non-MMOs that have no death penalties. i hope you don't think i only play MMO .. or that i am a mmo-only player.

And why would you think that it is important to me? I am just commenting that if harsh DP is important to the OP (which he stated), he should be more flexible in OTHER criteria if he wants to find a game.

 

 

So you're saying nobody should talk about the things they want? The type of game he's asking for doesnt exist so he shouldnt ask for it? As I've pointed out, games are indeed coming out at least partially because of people belly aching on forums.

Oh, i have no doubt people will talk. I just don't agree that it is useful. Look at the rant about lack of perma death penalty ... that dead horse has been flogged for YEARS.

The only AAA game that put that in, as an OPTION, is not even a MMO.

  nottuned

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 93

8/19/13 1:52:47 PM#35
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Zydari
I know what you mean. The rush you got in  EQ and UO in unknown areas due to the risks involved with death I have never experienced in any other game. Not sure I miss it though. 

Oh i remember those risks. Risks of wasting time regrinding stuff.

I am glad that i can choose games without those "risks" today.

Could you not choose those types of games in the past?

 

I feel you are failing to grasp the idea that people like a challenge. For instance as a hobby some people put together models it takes a long time 1 mistake can ruin the whole thing but when its finished it is an achievement.

Some people look for this in their gaming as a hobby, not a form of entertainment. So like yourself some people want to choose, If you choose to be offended or intimidated by these games go for it.

an MMO is a game you can play for years not weeks or months and there are very few newer games with these options IMO 

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2000

8/19/13 1:57:24 PM#36
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

 

So we can't have more than 1 criterion when deciding what game to play? How about you go play one of the many non-mmos that don't have harsh death penalties? If it's so important to you, then you should be able to settle for a non-mmo. And WoW losing millions of subs doesn't necessarily mean the market would move specifically towards sandbox games. Clearly games like The Repopulation, Embers of Caerus etc are being developed because people show an interest in it.

Yes, you can have as many criteria as you want. However, it is moot if such a game does not exist. Either you don't play anything, or you have to relax and have fewer criteria.

Of course i play lots of non-MMOs that have no death penalties. i hope you don't think i only play MMO .. or that i am a mmo-only player.

And why would you think that it is important to me? I am just commenting that if harsh DP is important to the OP (which he stated), he should be more flexible in OTHER criteria if he wants to find a game.

 

 

So you're saying nobody should talk about the things they want? The type of game he's asking for doesnt exist so he shouldnt ask for it? As I've pointed out, games are indeed coming out at least partially because of people belly aching on forums.

Oh, i have no doubt people will talk. I just don't agree that it is useful. Look at the rant about lack of perma death penalty ... that dead horse has been flogged for YEARS.

The only AAA game that put that in, as an OPTION, is not even a MMO.

So why do you not agree that it's useful? I mean obviously developers at least TRY to pay attention to what the community wants (some developers more than others). What reasoning leads you to believe that talking about the things you want on a public forum won't in some small way contribute to how developers design their games?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/19/13 2:10:13 PM#37
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

So why do you not agree that it's useful? I mean obviously developers at least TRY to pay attention to what the community wants (some developers more than others). What reasoning leads you to believe that talking about the things you want on a public forum won't in some small way contribute to how developers design their games?

Because history suggested otherwise? I thought this place agree devs pay more attention to money than what people say?

Lots of people here complains about solo-centric gameplay ... MMOs are full of solo-able gameplay.

Lots of people here complains about instances ... MMOs are full of instances.

Lots of people here complains about lack of FFA pvp .... few MMOs have any FFA pvp.

Lots of people here complains about lack of forced slow travel .... most MMOs have fast travels.

 

.... i think you get the idea.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2000

8/19/13 2:14:37 PM#38
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Holophonist
 

So why do you not agree that it's useful? I mean obviously developers at least TRY to pay attention to what the community wants (some developers more than others). What reasoning leads you to believe that talking about the things you want on a public forum won't in some small way contribute to how developers design their games?

Because history suggested otherwise? I thought this place agree devs pay more attention to money than what people say?

Yeah, they do. They pay MORE attention to money than what people say. Part of caring about money means caring about what people want. That's why niche markets exist in every aspect of life. Just because a group may be a minority, doesn't mean there's no money to be made in catering to them. Also, I said some developers pay more attention than others.

Lots of people here complains about solo-centric gameplay ... MMOs are full of solo-able gameplay.

Lots of people here complains about instances ... MMOs are full of instances.

Lots of people here complains about lack of FFA pvp .... few MMOs have any FFA pvp.

Lots of people here complains about lack of forced slow travel .... most MMOs have fast travels.

 

.... i think you get the idea.

Yeah people complain about all of those things, but on the other side of those complaints there are people who PREFER them. Developers put things in their game based on what people say they want and based on technical limitations. That's just common sense.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2945

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

8/19/13 2:20:46 PM#39


Originally posted by Rusque

Originally posted by Holophonist

Originally posted by Rusque

Originally posted by Grixxitt

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Alasti
I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

There are even MMOs that have corpse runs/harsh death penalties as well

Wizardry, Darkfall, Conquer, Eve, etc (off the top of my head)



Yes, but people like the OP don't actually miss that feeling. They are upset that other people have the option to play a game that doesn't feature harsh death penalties. It's about playing a game in which you enjoy a mechanic, knowing that others are being frustrated by it so that you can feel superior.

The problem is that the people playing those hardcore modes, is that they all want to be there. No one is suffering, and so that sense of superiority is lost (save for going to that game's forums to call people who play the other modes casuals/carebears) - gotta get that superiority fix somehow!



You couldn't be further from the mark. It's pretty obvious you don't understand our intentions or what we want. I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that more risk = more reward. And having something like corpse runs/looting adds more unscripted and exciting events than something like "every time you die your items lose 10 durability."

why do you guys always choose to make stuff up about us instead of just reading what we write?



"You guys"? Why do you believe yourself to be separate? Is it so hard to imagine that many of us 30+ year old gamers have been there and done that, and in some cases, for 5-10 years. The truth is the truth. The games and hardcore modes are out there. Those communities are tiny with only those who truly enjoy playing in that manner.

I know exactly what it's like to play perma-death and plenty of EQ corpse running. Like I said, a small portion actually enjoys that playstyle and goes to those games. Then there's people like the OP (which is most of the whiners) who don't want to go play that type of game with other people who enjoy it. They want to play that game style only if it's forced on the general public so that they can feel superior.

I don't know why self-proclaimed "hardcore" people have a million and one excuses why they're not playing a particular game. And why the next big AAA should have what they want.

Look, it's sad enough when the FFA PvP crowd wants a major MMO dedicated to them when they know full well that they're not a large portion of the MMO gamer population. And those who want perma-death are an even smaller group than that. If a game offers it, you should be playing it because you're not going to get what you want from any AAA games.

Like I said, been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Big whoop.



I'm one of "those guys." Funny thing... I cannot for the life of me see where the OP said word one about "perma-death", yet that is what you read?

Want to know why I don't play any of the games you so nicely provided? OWPvP. All of them. (I think. Not sure about Conquer.)

It is not a "hardcore" thing, which shows your ignorance. It is a personal preference. When was the last time you felt dieing mattered in an MMO?

"Us guys" know that today's MMO players want nothing of this sort of thing. It interrupts their efficient leveling and time to end game grind. What it adds for me is a spontaneous occurrence where my focus in the game changes suddenly.

Really, though, I don't expect you to understand, which your posts have shown quite well that you do not.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/19/13 2:24:42 PM#40
Originally posted by Holophonist

Yeah people complain about all of those things, but on the other side of those complaints there are people who PREFER them. Developers put things in their game based on what people say they want and based on technical limitations. That's just common sense.

That is why ranting here is useless. There are always those on the other side of those complaints of people who PREFER them.

Thank you for making my point.

 

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