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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » "Advanced AI, smart enough to make Trinity obsolete" is an outright PR lie.

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325 posts found
  Myrdynn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/25/07
Posts: 1348

8/16/13 4:18:42 PM#41

I dont see why the technology isnt there

Blizzard has done it already in the Lich King expansion as well as a few other fights.

Honestly, one of the best fights I have played in any game, and it almost felt like pvp, I am referring to the Arena of Champions?? cant remember name, where it was just boss fight after boss fight, and the 3rd fight had random characters of each class, they had random specs as well.  They could do anything that class could do at any time.  It was fun, it was chaotic, yes we had a plan on kill order, CC, etc, but even when we had 25 man hard mode on farm, that fight could randomly screw you up on acheivements, it was great

a whole game built with this type of variable, is how I see EQN, and I LOVE IT!

  Redemp

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1055

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

8/16/13 4:20:41 PM#42
Originally posted by Ehliya

I have to agree with the points made on existing AI.  I think the reason companies don't use full-fledged AI for monster opponents is that it would be too much for the players to contend with.

Try playing Dragon Age, the Bioware RPG, on hard mode WITHOUT using the space-bar to pause the action.  In many encounters the human is simply overwhelmed - people cannot hit the keys on a keyboard fast enough to match the AI.

Imagine a smart monster with appropriate AI in EQN:

 

- Let's say an ancient Liche who has survived ages.  A party of adventurers shows up to claim his treasure.  Usually this means fighting through predictable encounters of steadily increasing difficulty with the Liche's followers until you reach the inner sanctum, where said Liche obligingly makes his final stand.

Now imagine...

- the adventurers show up at the Liche lair to find - no one.  Unbeknownst to them, the Liche knew they were coming and decided to prepare a surprise.  As the adventurers head out, disappointed, he springs his trap as he and his followers emerge en masse from a hidden passage and steamroll the adventurers.

This would be way, way out of most MMO players comfort zones.  People want to relax and bash keys while the bodies of the enemy (and the treasure loot) piles up.  Not have to out-think Skynet...

 I actually want you described, can you imagine the feeling of accomplishment and challenge if there simply wasn't easy bands of mobs to roll your face on the keyboard against? Obviously there are degree's of difficulty, but damn If I don't actually want a group of level appropriate mobs to give my group a run for it's money. I don't want to know every fight that I'm going to win, because the developers designed the mobs/groups to die when players appeared. If EQN can actually deliver on engaging PvE AI difficulty ... I'll never PvP again.

  Zorgo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2194

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

8/16/13 4:21:52 PM#43

Summary:

BearKnight doesn't like EQN. 

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3712

RIP City of Heroes!

8/16/13 4:22:29 PM#44
Originally posted by BearKnight

Coming from the software development world I know for a FACT that SOE is not employing people from MIT's AI department for their game. This would be the only way to produce AI even close to challenging enough to make the "Trinity" system obsolete. However, even MIT hasn't created AI advanced enough to make this claim.

 

Additionally, we had "difficult" AI back in 2004 during EQ2's closed beta. We started testing AI that would dynamically choose, on the fly, whom to attack based on class & actions they were taking. Mobs would randomly scream out "Kill the healer! It is keeping the weaklings alive!" (an undead skeleton within the instanced orc dungeon in Commonlands outside Freeport). I don't know what happened to it as mobs stopped doing that kind of stuff shortly before launch. Nothing was said about it, and launch went on without a further word on it.

 

The thing is, it made the game actually difficult and fun to play even with trinity. Tanks had to constantly watch their aggro or risk a healer or nuker being fried. It most certianly did NOT make Trinity obsolete.

 

ps: wtf with this whole "Trinity" name? CC (ie: control from enchanters, etc) has always been a critical role in Everquest. So why only pick Tank/Healer/DPS and call it Trinity???

 

Anyways, we've had basic-advanced AI since 2004, but no one has been using it. In the instances it was attempted it never made the game impossible, but from what I've been told by developers in the industry it made it that much harder to make new content for the game as they always had to consider how the AI would be used in that situation. This is the only reason I can guess as to why they stopped using it????

 

Either way, don't believe this nonsense about EQ:N. They're following the current "trend" of PR buzz phrases to catch people's eyes. They should just come out and say that they want to move away from selective roles like Tank/Healer/Dps/Control. After all, we all know dungeons in Everquest 1 cannot be done without that specific setup right guys? (In before I post about constantly doing DPS only dungeon runs etc in EQ1, or before someone else does)

 

 

Seriously, it really is getting frustrating reading about this "Advanced AI" when it doesn't exist. It's like the CEO of Spandex coming out to tell everyone we have conquered the effects of "Gravity" to a room that has at LEAST one Physicist/Engineer that knows for a fact we haven't yet.

 

/endRant

I will counter with at the very least this:  http://www.red3d.com/cwr/resume.html

See some of his work:  http://www.red3d.com/cwr/

Here is a famous bit of his work BOIDS:  http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/   Which he won an Oscar Scientific/Technical Oscar for.

 

 

 

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15347

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

8/16/13 4:26:23 PM#45
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by BearKnight

Coming from the software development world I know for a FACT that SOE is not employing people from MIT's AI department for their game. This would be the only way to produce AI even close to challenging enough to make the "Trinity" system obsolete. However, even MIT hasn't created AI advanced enough to make this claim.

 

Additionally, we had "difficult" AI back in 2004 during EQ2's closed beta. We started testing AI that would dynamically choose, on the fly, whom to attack based on class & actions they were taking. Mobs would randomly scream out "Kill the healer! It is keeping the weaklings alive!" (an undead skeleton within the instanced orc dungeon in Commonlands outside Freeport). I don't know what happened to it as mobs stopped doing that kind of stuff shortly before launch. Nothing was said about it, and launch went on without a further word on it.

 

The thing is, it made the game actually difficult and fun to play even with trinity. Tanks had to constantly watch their aggro or risk a healer or nuker being fried. It most certianly did NOT make Trinity obsolete.

 

ps: wtf with this whole "Trinity" name? CC (ie: control from enchanters, etc) has always been a critical role in Everquest. So why only pick Tank/Healer/DPS and call it Trinity???

 

Anyways, we've had basic-advanced AI since 2004, but no one has been using it. In the instances it was attempted it never made the game impossible, but from what I've been told by developers in the industry it made it that much harder to make new content for the game as they always had to consider how the AI would be used in that situation. This is the only reason I can guess as to why they stopped using it????

 

Either way, don't believe this nonsense about EQ:N. They're following the current "trend" of PR buzz phrases to catch people's eyes. They should just come out and say that they want to move away from selective roles like Tank/Healer/Dps/Control. After all, we all know dungeons in Everquest 1 cannot be done without that specific setup right guys? (In before I post about constantly doing DPS only dungeon runs etc in EQ1, or before someone else does)

 

 

Seriously, it really is getting frustrating reading about this "Advanced AI" when it doesn't exist. It's like the CEO of Spandex coming out to tell everyone we have conquered the effects of "Gravity" to a room that has at LEAST one Physicist/Engineer that knows for a fact we haven't yet.

 

/endRant

I will counter with at the very least this:  http://www.red3d.com/cwr/resume.html

See some of his work:  http://www.red3d.com/cwr/

Here is a famous bit of his work BOIDS:  http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/   Which he won an Oscar Scientific/Technical Oscar for.

 

 

 

Well they have MIT on their side, according to the Op that means they can do it:).

Education

1978
Master of Science, thesis on procedural animation (Computer Animation in the World of Actors and Scripts [13 citations]), The Architecture Machine Group (now part of The Media Lab), Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
1975
Bachelor of Science, thesis on procedural animation ("A Multiprocessing Approach to Computer Animation") Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Won the William L. Stewart, Jr. Award for founding MITV student television.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5179

8/16/13 4:33:28 PM#46
It isn't the mob difficulty. That can be adjusted easily. It's the fact that for every state you create and monitor you consume CPU cycles. It's pretty easy for a few players and a hundred or so mobs on a single computer. Ramp that up to thousands of players and tens of thousands of mobs spread across  dozens of server clusters it gets expensive. That's why most mobs tend to treat all players the same both in and out of combat.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  superconducting

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 693

8/16/13 4:36:46 PM#47
Originally posted by Distopia

Well they have MIT on their side, according to the Op that means they can do it:).

Phew that was close.

(Since Only MIT grads can make anything near acceptable AI of course)...

:P

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3712

RIP City of Heroes!

8/16/13 4:49:11 PM#48
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by BearKnight

Coming from the software development world I know for a FACT that SOE is not employing people from MIT's AI department for their game. This would be the only way to produce AI even close to challenging enough to make the "Trinity" system obsolete. However, even MIT hasn't created AI advanced enough to make this claim.

 

Additionally, we had "difficult" AI back in 2004 during EQ2's closed beta. We started testing AI that would dynamically choose, on the fly, whom to attack based on class & actions they were taking. Mobs would randomly scream out "Kill the healer! It is keeping the weaklings alive!" (an undead skeleton within the instanced orc dungeon in Commonlands outside Freeport). I don't know what happened to it as mobs stopped doing that kind of stuff shortly before launch. Nothing was said about it, and launch went on without a further word on it.

 

The thing is, it made the game actually difficult and fun to play even with trinity. Tanks had to constantly watch their aggro or risk a healer or nuker being fried. It most certianly did NOT make Trinity obsolete.

 

ps: wtf with this whole "Trinity" name? CC (ie: control from enchanters, etc) has always been a critical role in Everquest. So why only pick Tank/Healer/DPS and call it Trinity???

 

Anyways, we've had basic-advanced AI since 2004, but no one has been using it. In the instances it was attempted it never made the game impossible, but from what I've been told by developers in the industry it made it that much harder to make new content for the game as they always had to consider how the AI would be used in that situation. This is the only reason I can guess as to why they stopped using it????

 

Either way, don't believe this nonsense about EQ:N. They're following the current "trend" of PR buzz phrases to catch people's eyes. They should just come out and say that they want to move away from selective roles like Tank/Healer/Dps/Control. After all, we all know dungeons in Everquest 1 cannot be done without that specific setup right guys? (In before I post about constantly doing DPS only dungeon runs etc in EQ1, or before someone else does)

 

 

Seriously, it really is getting frustrating reading about this "Advanced AI" when it doesn't exist. It's like the CEO of Spandex coming out to tell everyone we have conquered the effects of "Gravity" to a room that has at LEAST one Physicist/Engineer that knows for a fact we haven't yet.

 

/endRant

I will counter with at the very least this:  http://www.red3d.com/cwr/resume.html

See some of his work:  http://www.red3d.com/cwr/

Here is a famous bit of his work BOIDS:  http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/   Which he won an Oscar Scientific/Technical Oscar for.

 

 

 

Well they have MIT on their side, according to the Op that means they can do it:).

Education

1978
Master of Science, thesis on procedural animation (Computer Animation in the World of Actors and Scripts [13 citations]), The Architecture Machine Group (now part of The Media Lab), Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
1975
Bachelor of Science, thesis on procedural animation ("A Multiprocessing Approach to Computer Animation") Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Won the William L. Stewart, Jr. Award for founding MITV student television.

Plus a ton of experience:

1998 to 2012
Sony Computer Entertainment America
Senior Researcher at SCE US Research and Development. Investigating autonomous characters and other technology for games on PlayStation 2 and 3. Public projects include Pigeons in the Park, OpenSteer, PSCrowd, crowd stigmergy and goal-oriented texture synthesis (including a model of camouflage evolution).
1997 to 1998
DreamWorks Animation
Member of Long Term Software Development staff, in the Feature Animation division of DreamWorks SKG. Developed behavioral animation tools.
1994 to 1996
SGI (Silicon Studio) [at archive.org]
MTS in FireWalker team. Developed tools for authoring improvisational behavior in multimedia.
1992 to 1994
Electronic Arts
MTS. Designed and implemented real-time reactive behavioral models for use in video games. Created behaviors used in John Madden Football for 3DO, and for an unreleased hockey game.
1982 to 1991
Symbolics Inc. (Symbolics Graphics Division)
Principal MTS. Design, implement, and maintain a 2d paint system (S-Paint). Design, implement, and maintain an interactive 3d animation scripting system (S-Dynamics). Conduct program in advanced graphics research: produced a behavior model of bird flocking and a geometrical model of surfaces in nonlinear flow.
1979 to 1982
Information International Inc. (Motion Picture Project / Digital Scene Simulation)
Lead animator (technical director) on computer animated scenes for TV commercials and feature film special effects. Developed graphics and animation tools.
  ice-vortex

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 906

8/16/13 4:50:41 PM#49
Originally posted by zymurgeist
It isn't the mob difficulty. That can be adjusted easily. It's the fact that for every state you create and monitor you consume CPU cycles. It's pretty easy for a few players and a hundred or so mobs on a single computer. Ramp that up to thousands of players and tens of thousands of mobs spread across  dozens of server clusters it gets expensive. That's why most mobs tend to treat all players the same both in and out of combat.

It has nothing to do with processing power. We've had the same AI for 15 years now. Computers have advanced and gotten cheaper over those 15 years. As someone pointed out with the Blizzard interview. The reason we haven't gotten better AI is because developers have been scared to challenge players even a little bit.

  GlacianNex

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/03
Posts: 598

8/16/13 4:51:01 PM#50

This is one of the cases just because you can - doesn't mean you should. You don't need MIT folks to write an AI will blow away every player. It really comes down to what is fun to play. In the past SOE did some play testing where mobs were smart enough to destroy 'Trinity' group structure and players found it to be not very enjoyable thus the idea was dropped.

 

If you build a game around Trinity and then put in mobs that are designed specifically against it obviously it will be annoying. GW2 tried another group structure model however they encountered another problem - which is swarming.

 

Aside from having smart mobs you also need a system that is robust and complex enough where such intelligence can be used in an interesting way. If you make a mob with 8 quick slot abilities there is natural limitation on what it can do with those abilities. 

 

Given current systems that MMO's employ good AI is rather limited making it either a pushover, a choreography class or frustrating to play against.

  ice-vortex

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 906

8/16/13 4:55:41 PM#51
Originally posted by GlacianNex

This is one of the cases just because you can - doesn't mean you should. You don't need MIT folks to write an AI will blow away every player. It really comes down to what is fun to play. In the past SOE did some play testing where mobs were smart enough to destroy 'Trinity' group structure and players found it to be not very enjoyable thus the idea was dropped.

 

If you build a game around Trinity and then put in mobs that are designed specifically against it obviously it will be annoying. GW2 tried another group structure model however they encountered another problem - which is swarming.

 

Aside from having smart mobs you also need a system that is robust and complex enough where such intelligence can be used in an interesting way. If you make a mob with 8 quick slot abilities there is natural limitation on what it can do with those abilities. 

 

Given current systems that MMO's employ good AI is rather limited making it either a pushover, a choreography class or frustrating to play against.

ArenaNet tried more advanced AI as well, and they thought it was just too difficult for players. So we got the watered down version of GW2 combat, not what was originally planned. Just like we got the event hearts so players knew where to go to find dynamic events. Developers have been coddling players for over a decade now and they have been too scared to stop.

  GlacianNex

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/03
Posts: 598

8/16/13 5:06:38 PM#52
Originally posted by ice-vortex
Originally posted by GlacianNex

(post above).

ArenaNet tried more advanced AI as well, and they thought it was just too difficult for players. So we got the watered down version of GW2 combat, not what was originally planned. Just like we got the event hearts so players knew where to go to find dynamic events. Developers have been coddling players for over a decade now and they have been too scared to stop.

Quite possibly - that said it is developers job to cater to players. They are your customers and if they don't enjoy your product they will not play it. For game studio to invest time and money it takes a significant amount of people interested in the game, even if it is niche game. If by and large people are not able to figure out this new advanced combat or new and advanced system then companies are not going to make it.

 

Games have gotten simpler that is true - but games have also gotten a lot more mainstream. Think back to UO and EQ back when having 100k subs was like (OMFG, GET THE BOOZE WE ARE PARTYING!). Today unless we are talking 500k+ people are not impressed. The largest the crowd the more inclusive your in game systems have to be. 

I doubt we will see a revolution but we will see a stead y stream of evolution.

  Dullahan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 741

Death to Themepark.

8/16/13 5:09:57 PM#53
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Dullahan

The issue with AI isn't making it "smarter."  Thats just a matter of having pre-programmed instructions for all the general scenarios.  Theres really not that many variables, even if there are a hundreds.  

The problem people are overlooking is that traditional RPGs have classes, and every class has a function  When you make AI such that it circumvents a characters function or role, and only targets the physically weaker classes, the outcome will always be one of two things: a break down of the class functions where all classes are given the ability to become the de facto tank, whether its by evasion tanking (teleporting, jumping, dodging, rolling out of harms way) or changing the traditional class function to such that they are capable of physically tanking.  Thats it.  Those are the two options.  Evasion tanking = zerg combat.  Argue it all you want, but thats what guild wars 2 is.  An example of the other system is Darkfail where all classes are capable of becoming a tank by training defense and wearing heavy armor.

Its ok though, I'm sure SOE has found a way around this. 

And then there's option 3: games like Dragons Dogma...

First, it falls under option 1.  Second, its not even a multiplayer game.  Third, the kind of action combat in dragon's dogma, though cool, is created with solo gameplay in mind, and would never work in a massively multiplayer game.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, and Pantheon ROTF.

Intrigued by Star Citizen and Archeage.
-
Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  MuffinStump

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/03
Posts: 475

8/16/13 5:12:34 PM#54

I'm interested in differing mob AI based on type and situation thus...

1979 AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide: Monsters and Organization for your reading pleasure.

(Warning - Incoming Wall of Text for no good reason)

SITUATION 1 (Sl) is where encounter occurs for the
first time, and while the party inflicts casualties upon the monsters, victory
is denied; the party then leaves with its wounded, regroups, and returns
one full week later to finish the job. SITUATION 2 (S2) is where the party,
rested, healed, and ready for action, has now re-encountered the monsters
in question.

EXAMPLE I: The party has entered a crypt under an old temple and
attacked skeletons and zombies encountered there.

S1: The monsters will respond only as the crypts are entered in turn. Being
effectively mindless, they have no co-ordination in their attacks, and
no pursuit will occur when the party breaks off.

S2. There will be no change in response on the part of the skeletons and
zombies. Those destroyed will not have been replaced (assuming of
course, that some evil cleric is not nearby) by reinforcements. Doors
and furniture previously damaged or destroyed will not have been
repaired.

EXAMPLE II: The party has located and attacked a colony of giant ants.

S1. Although giant ants have only ”animal intelligence”, the colony is an
organized society wherein individuals are part of a greater whole;
thus, response will be ordered. Warrior ants will meet the attackers,
and workers will remove bodies, items dropped, and any rubble
caused by the combat. If the queen is threatened, the workers will
attack also. When the party breaks off the action, there is but slight
chance of pursuit.

S2. In the interim, pupae reaching maturity (perhaps 1-6 warriors and 3-12
workers) will have replaced casualties incurred during the first encounter.
Destroyed tunnels will have been repaired, new tunnels possibly
dug, and general activity of the colony carried on normally. Warriors
will again meet the party (although they might be reduced in
number). When the queen is killed, all organized activity will cease.

EXAMPLE III: The party has found a cave complex which is the lair of an
orc band.

S1. The orcs might have a warning device (a drum, horn, gong, bell, etc.)
available for use by the guards posted at the entrance to their lair. The
larger the number of orcs, the greater the chance that such a device
will be on hand. As soon as the attack occurs, one or two orcs will rush
to inform the group that they are under attack, assuming that opportunity
allows. Response to the attack will be disorganized, wave
attacks being likely, with the nearest orcs coming first, and the leaders
(most likely to be at the rear of the complex) coming up near the last.
Some traps might be set along the complex entry. Resistance will
stiffen as the leaders (and ogres, if any) come up. When the party retires,
there is a fair chance for pursuit - a general harassment by the
boldest fighters amongst the orcs.

S2. There is not much chance that the chaotic orcs will have sent for reinforcements,
although some few losses might hove been replaced by
returning group members. Any damage or destruction in the cave
complex will have been repaired. There is a great likelihood that
more guards will be on duty and some warning device ready to alert
the group, as discipline will be attempted because of the attack. Response
to the attack will be more immediate, and leaders and spell
casters will be ready to fight. (If the party camped too near the orcs
during the intervening week, there is a chance that the orcs might
have located and raided the place!)

EXAMPLE IV: The party comes upon a small town and openly assaults the
place.

S1.Town guards will give warning immediately, and while there will not
be an alarm device at each post, there will be a central bell, gong, or
whatever to alert the entire citizenry of attack. When this sounds,
trained militia bands will arm, muster, and move to designated
locations to repel the attack. The citizens, regardless of alignment
(and this includes characters with adventurer classes), will be likely to
join to fight attackers, for the general welfare of the community will
come first. When the party breaks off their attack, pursuit is highly possible
if the town has sufficient forces available to do so on the spot.

S2.The town will have sought whatever reinforcements they could by
means of employment of mercenaries, requests to nearby fortresses
and towns for men-at-arms, and all able-bodied persons will be
formed into militia bodies. Any destruction wrought by the initial assault
will have been repaired as time and ability allowed. Guards will
be doubled or trebled, and local spell casters will have their most effective
and powerful offensive and defensive magicks ready. Scouting
parties will have been sent out and the approach of the attacking
party will be likely to be known. Pursuit will be very likely if the
second attack fails so as to allow it.


EXAMPLE V: The party encounters a bandit camp and engages in combat.

S1: The entire camp will be organized and ready for action on the spur of
the moment. As soon as the guard pickets sound the alarm, reaction
will be swift. Defensive traps, snares, and pits will make up a part of
the defensive ring of the camp. Bandits will move to take up assigned
posts. Counterattacks will be thrown against the party at appropriate
times. When the action is broken off, thieves, assassins, or even monks
who might be members of the bandit group will move to track and
follow the party to discover what its subsequent actions are and if
another attack will ensue.


S2: There is a great likelihood that the entire encampment will be GONE
(without a trace of where it went) if the attacking party was obviously
of sufficient power to cause serious trouble if it attacked again. If still
there, the traps, pits, and snares will have been more carefully hidden
and will be more numerous also. Ambushes might be set along the
most probable route of approach to the camp for the party's second
attack. A few more bandits might have been enlisted or called in from
groups out raiding. All guards will have been doubled or trebled, all
men more alert than ever, and all possible preparations made. During
the interim an assassination attempt upon one or more of the
members of the party might have been made (assuming that the
bandits have an assassin character amongst their number), an attempt
to insinuate a spy into the party might have been made, and/or a raid
upon the party's camp may have been carried out by the bandits. If
the party retires, pursuit will certainly take place if bandit strength still
allows.


EXAMPLE VI: The party discovers a fortress and attacks.

S1. Guards will instantly sound a warning to alert the place. Alarms will
be sounded from several places within the fortress. Leaders will move
to hold the place, or expel invaders, with great vigor. Spell casters will
be likely to have specific stations and assigned duties - such as
casting fireballs, lighting bolts, flame strikes, cloudkills, dispel magics,
and like spells. Defenders are out to KILL, not deal stupidly or gently
with, attackers, and they will typically ask no quarter, nor give any. In
like fashion, traps within the fortress will be lethal As action
continues, commanders will assess the party's strengths, weaknesses,
defense, and attack modes and counter appropriately. If the party is
within the fortress, possible entry points and escape routes will be
sealed off. When the attackers pull back, it is very likely that they will
be counterattacked, or at least harassed. Additionally, members of the
force of the stronghold will track the party continually as long as they
are within striking distance of the fortress.

S2. The fortress will most likely have replaced all losses and have reinforcements
in addition. An ambush might be laid for the attackers
when they approach. A sally force will be ready to fall upon the
attackers (preferably when engaged in front so as to strike the flank or
rear). Siege machinery, oil, missiles, etc. will be ready and in good
supply. Repairs to defenses will be made as thoroughly as time and
materials permitted. Weak areas will have been blocked off, isolated,
and trapped as well as possible under the circumstances. Leaders will
be nearby to take immediate charge. Spell casters might be disguised
as guards, or hidden near guard posts, in order to surprise attackers.
Any retreat by the attackers will be followed up by a hot pursuit.

  ice-vortex

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 906

8/16/13 5:20:16 PM#55
Originally posted by GlacianNex
Originally posted by ice-vortex
Originally posted by GlacianNex

(post above).

ArenaNet tried more advanced AI as well, and they thought it was just too difficult for players. So we got the watered down version of GW2 combat, not what was originally planned. Just like we got the event hearts so players knew where to go to find dynamic events. Developers have been coddling players for over a decade now and they have been too scared to stop.

Quite possibly - that said it is developers job to cater to players. They are your customers and if they don't enjoy your product they will not play it. For game studio to invest time and money it takes a significant amount of people interested in the game, even if it is niche game. If by and large people are not able to figure out this new advanced combat or new and advanced system then companies are not going to make it.

 

Games have gotten simpler that is true - but games have also gotten a lot more mainstream. Think back to UO and EQ back when having 100k subs was like (OMFG, GET THE BOOZE WE ARE PARTYING!). Today unless we are talking 500k+ people are not impressed. The largest the crowd the more inclusive your in game systems have to be. 

I doubt we will see a revolution but we will see a stead y stream of evolution.

It's about who they want to cater to. They could cater to gamers or the non-gamers that play MMOs. They are two distinct groups. The people who are simply non-gamers that play MMOs, aren't likely to switch games regardless. I think underestimating players and their ability to adapt and learn to play more difficult games is doing a disservice to the players and the gaming industry as a whole.

  fyerwall

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 3197

8/16/13 5:20:35 PM#56
Originally posted by BearKnight

Coming from the software development world I know for a FACT that SOE is not employing people from MIT's AI department for their game. This would be the only way to produce AI even close to challenging enough to make the "Trinity" system obsolete. However, even MIT hasn't created AI advanced enough to make this claim.

 

Additionally, we had "difficult" AI back in 2004 during EQ2's closed beta. We started testing AI that would dynamically choose, on the fly, whom to attack based on class & actions they were taking. Mobs would randomly scream out "Kill the healer! It is keeping the weaklings alive!" (an undead skeleton within the instanced orc dungeon in Commonlands outside Freeport). I don't know what happened to it as mobs stopped doing that kind of stuff shortly before launch. Nothing was said about it, and launch went on without a further word on it.

 

The thing is, it made the game actually difficult and fun to play even with trinity. Tanks had to constantly watch their aggro or risk a healer or nuker being fried. It most certianly did NOT make Trinity obsolete.

 

ps: wtf with this whole "Trinity" name? CC (ie: control from enchanters, etc) has always been a critical role in Everquest. So why only pick Tank/Healer/DPS and call it Trinity???

 

Anyways, we've had basic-advanced AI since 2004, but no one has been using it. In the instances it was attempted it never made the game impossible, but from what I've been told by developers in the industry it made it that much harder to make new content for the game as they always had to consider how the AI would be used in that situation. This is the only reason I can guess as to why they stopped using it????

 

Either way, don't believe this nonsense about EQ:N. They're following the current "trend" of PR buzz phrases to catch people's eyes. They should just come out and say that they want to move away from selective roles like Tank/Healer/Dps/Control. After all, we all know dungeons in Everquest 1 cannot be done without that specific setup right guys? (In before I post about constantly doing DPS only dungeon runs etc in EQ1, or before someone else does)

 

 

Seriously, it really is getting frustrating reading about this "Advanced AI" when it doesn't exist. It's like the CEO of Spandex coming out to tell everyone we have conquered the effects of "Gravity" to a room that has at LEAST one Physicist/Engineer that knows for a fact we haven't yet.

 

/endRant

Apparently some people have a hard time with reading comprehension, as no where did they say they are creating a super advanced AI ala Skynet. What they have been saying is they are creating a more advanced AI, one that has a series of likes/dislikes and the ability to remember certain events. Software can easily be programmed to remember user habits and preferences (music choices, brower auto complete, etc). Basically the EQN AI will know its set programming but can also learn by trial and error in a specific instance that if A = Bad > A = Bad > A = Bad > Move to B.

AI has not changed from the simple AI we have had since EQ. AI Habits in EQ were the same in AO as they were in DAoC as they were in WoW and EQ2. NOTHING has really changed since 1999, and trust me, I have played them all. Mobs in EQ would aggro just the same as they did in AO, train just the same as AO and stand there and fight just like they did in AO. Mob AI in EQ2, throughout all phases of beta was exactly the same we have today in EQ2 - Generate enough hate and the mob will switch to you. And its the same way in WoW.

Now I, and many others here, understand your disdain for this game, but please stop with the wild rants and uninformed diatribes. Its getting kind of old and really sort of sad. It's a game. You don't like it, They are not going to suddenly change it just for you. You should just move on before you give yourself an ulcer. Contempt is not healthy.

How about we just wait to see what they do before passing judgement on the game?

There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


  donpopuki

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/12
Posts: 594

8/16/13 5:47:33 PM#57
I'm confused first you say there was advanced ai in EQ2 then turn around and say its impossible to create advanced ai according to MIT.

As others posters pointed out you can find advanced ai in other games such as chess. It's really not that hard to make a more complex ai, current ai in mmos are just two variable matrices. You have damage and taunts. All SOE has to do is add more variables like faction, healing amount, types of spell used and so forth.

Adding more variables can increase encounter complexity exponentially. Checkers uses the same board as chess but the added complexity of chess is due to adding more options for movement.

Just because the ai can be programmed to beat players it doesn't mean it can't be handicapped by making them weaker. You can adjust their hps or damage.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11916

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

8/16/13 5:55:26 PM#58
Originally posted by BearKnight

Coming from the software development world I know for a FACT that SOE is not employing people from MIT's AI department for their game. This would be the only way to produce AI even close to challenging enough to make the "Trinity" system obsolete. However, even MIT hasn't created AI advanced enough to make this claim.

Collision detection, ignore taunt, target weakest...

There are dozens of simple changes a game can make to make the trinity obsolete, because the entire thing hinges on one ridiculous mechanic - TAUNT. Removing or ignoring taunt completely breaks the trinity, shifting the aggro pulling tank from the core component to the most useless class ever created.

You're also making the mistake of assuming that since you "come from the software development world" that you're in any way an authority on game design. Maybe you are and maybe you aren't, but one has nothing to do with the other.

  solarbear88

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/10
Posts: 73

8/16/13 5:56:00 PM#59
Here is something I picked up from other people's posts and want the devs to take note of:

People found mobs with the same skills they had challlenging. And it seems to be possible to program mobs to act more intelligently.


This is what made the encounters in Baldur's Gate so memorable. They would destroy you with well programmed crowd control and buff themselves just like players. They would fallon clothies and wounded characters first. I've never seen an MMO really do that.

That being said some form of threat will be needed or it will become a zergfest.
  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

8/16/13 6:22:49 PM#60

I think people here confuse the goal of AI studies to it's practical use.The ultimate goal of AI Research is to make an AI that can perceive it's environment,learn and make decisions and actions to best achieve it's goals.As far as I know we aren't close tot hat goal as of yet.

But the practical use of what what we have can be used to varying degrees and can have and should have limitations  enforced on it for the purpose of fun.Even if we had reached the ultimate goal of AI research in practical use you could create a AI that was a genius or an AI with the intelligence and learning capability of a slug.It's not an all or nothing deal.

In a game everything should come down to fun and making challenges difficult but not impossible and the AI will be hampered  or designed with that in mind.

I'm in no way saying SOE is using true AI at all or that it's not a marketing term ...because we've seen no evidence of what they are terming emergent AI means or is.The demo at SOE live had no AI at all so either stood still or were being controlled by humans.

We have nothing to base criticism or praise of this subject on and anyone doing either is pushing a personal agenda not fact.

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