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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » "Advanced AI, smart enough to make Trinity obsolete" is an outright PR lie.

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325 posts found
  Dejoblue

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/11
Posts: 295

I'll give them heroics...and when everyone is super...no one will be.

8/16/13 4:22:35 PM#21
Originally posted by Dullahan

EQ1 had more advanced AI than any other mmo by a mile.  

Just a few examples of how things used to work back when games didn't cater to children and the mentally handicapped:

If you aggroed a mob, every mob within like a certain radius based on level would assist.  There was no mobs chained to other mobs, so you could use tactics to actually split them.  It was very common for someone to accidently pull dozens of mobs at a time because they would assist each other.

In EQ1, mobs would actually cast target based AE spells on you if you were standing near other party members (they'd never cast those spells otherwise). They would run up to you and point blank ae as well.  

If you were high on aggro list and you sat down, mobs would run up to you and get a free max damage round off on you, often 1 shotting you.  

If you had high aggro as say, a wizard, and went within melee range, a mob would often switch to attack you simply because of proximity.

If you were low health, regardless of anyone elses threat, the mob would go for you and attempt to finish you off and unless the mob was rooted or mezed, no amount of taunting would stop it.  Going below 20% on a boss meant you were the next to die if you weren't healed immediately.

Mobs would flee at low life if they were alone.  If they reached friendly mobs aggressive to you, they'd turn around.  If the mob was a caster and you pulled him away from his spawn area, he would teleport (gate) back at low health.

Mobs would roam around buffing each other.  They would heal each other as well.

In EQ1, there was no ability that forced aggro on a tank without substantial threat.  The taunt ability only worked permitted you already established considerable threat, and if someone else only slightly out-aggro'd you.  If, say, a caster nuked or debuffed a mob early, taunt was worthless.

The best threat tanks were hybrid tanks, but they were the weaker of the tanks.  The warrior which was the superior tank class, had to rely on weapons that procced spells or magic items with expendable charges.  There was no easy way of generating threat as a warrior in EQ.

 

Those are just a few things that come to mind regarding aggro in classic Everquest.  Its no wonder people hate so hard on threat management systems when all modern MMOs provide their tank classes with surefire ways of keeping aggro with very little risk involved.

This is different from which MMO? Which single player game? Here is a clue it is not AI it is scripted and based on hard number thresholds. The NPC has no choice, X has more threat than Y, nevermind he is kiting me.

 

Let's all come back to this red herring topic once we see more AI in action.

  NaMeNaMe

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/09
Posts: 91

8/16/13 4:24:35 PM#22

OP, don't bother. I made a similar thread, people here don't understand a single thing required when creating what they Storybricks are creating. I'm extremely skeptical, I will not say it can not be done anymore but I'm not going to be dragged into believing the PR at face value like a lot of people here are.

I've watched Storybricks's AI video, so far it's exteremly basic and consists of using "tags" to determine situational outcomes in the mobs behavior. In theory the "tags" could create the AI they are talking about but that is in theory, until I see footage of this in action I say it can't be done.

"if u forcefully insert foriegn objects into my? body, i will die"

  grimfall

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/07
Posts: 1159

8/16/13 4:26:55 PM#23
Originally posted by wizardanim
Originally posted by BearKnight

Coming from the software development world I know for a FACT that SOE is not employing people from MIT's AI department for their game. This would be the only way to produce AI even close to challenging enough to make the "Trinity" system obsolete. However, even MIT hasn't created AI advanced enough to make this claim.

 

 

 

Seriously, it really is getting frustrating reading about this "Advanced AI" when it doesn't exist. It's like the CEO of Spandex coming out to tell everyone we have conquered the effects of "Gravity" to a room that has at LEAST one Physicist/Engineer that knows for a fact we haven't yet.

 

/endRant

As a software dev, I also know that advanced AI has existed for years, without machines to run it.  All in how you define what advanced is.

Weather it be continuous or discrete, AI requires heavy processing and decision making.  Dynamic or static ... learning vs. pre-computed.  The best AI is oriented toward its purpose.  I do not see any reason why SOE can not build a system that is specifically oriented around their purpose, just as Left 4 Dead did in their 2nd game.  They wrote a fantastic crowd solver for their zombies based on a dynamically branching AI.

This is no approach a software dev should take, as our job is oriented around problem solving.  Some amazing programs and code have been written by individuals who aren't in the crowd you suggest.  Even then, these prestigious colleges many times are forced to exclude smart people due to lack of funds, location, or culture.  If you really are a software dev, I don't see why you are so critical of SoE.

 

As a not software developer but someone who has the ability to read a magazine or an internet article, I  know that computer games don't use Artificial Intelligence.  What is used in games is code that basically boils down to series of if-then statements, whereas true AI  would be able to sit next to you and decide that it wants to play an MMO, then learn how to play it itself.  True AI = Skynet, that develops it's own motivations and then acts on those motives.  The orc in whatever game you're playing ain't Skynet.

But now that I've shaken my e-peen at you, to get back to the original topic, he's right.  Making the mobs act more like players in PVP scenarios just boils down to removing the taunt mechanic.  If you have a game where PVE uses taunt and PVP doesn't then no one is going to bother with killing tanks in PVP.  If the game puts the taunt mechanic into PVP, and you basically have to kill at least some of the tank classes first, then you'll kill them, and all of the sudden the PVE AI is just as smart as the players.

It's all very simple and has nothing to do with "difficulty of AI".  As a previous poster pointed out, EQ1 had really good PVE mob action simulation, and you all cried like little girls about trains and corpse runs and flocked to WoW when it came out because you could solo 3 monsters at once.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15956

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

8/16/13 4:27:15 PM#24
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe

OP, don't bother. I made a similar thread, people here don't understand a single thing required when creating what they Storybricks are creating. I'm extremely skeptical, I will not say it can not be done anymore but I'm not going to be dragged into believing the PR at face value like a lot of people here are.

I've watched Storybricks's AI video, so far it's exteremly basic and consists of using "tags" to determine situational outcomes in the mobs behavior. In theory the "tags" could create the AI they are talking about but that is in theory, until I see footage of this in action I say it can't be done.

Who said they believe it? Where did they say it? Stop arguing with people who do not exist.

Just a bit of advice: Not believing you or the OP has nothing to do with believing SOE.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Dullahan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 798

Death to Themepark.

8/16/13 4:27:20 PM#25
Originally posted by dejoblue
Originally posted by Dullahan

EQ1 had more advanced AI than any other mmo by a mile.  

Just a few examples of how things used to work back when games didn't cater to children and the mentally handicapped:

If you aggroed a mob, every mob within like a certain radius based on level would assist.  There was no mobs chained to other mobs, so you could use tactics to actually split them.  It was very common for someone to accidently pull dozens of mobs at a time because they would assist each other.

In EQ1, mobs would actually cast target based AE spells on you if you were standing near other party members (they'd never cast those spells otherwise). They would run up to you and point blank ae as well.  

If you were high on aggro list and you sat down, mobs would run up to you and get a free max damage round off on you, often 1 shotting you.  

If you had high aggro as say, a wizard, and went within melee range, a mob would often switch to attack you simply because of proximity.

If you were low health, regardless of anyone elses threat, the mob would go for you and attempt to finish you off and unless the mob was rooted or mezed, no amount of taunting would stop it.  Going below 20% on a boss meant you were the next to die if you weren't healed immediately.

Mobs would flee at low life if they were alone.  If they reached friendly mobs aggressive to you, they'd turn around.  If the mob was a caster and you pulled him away from his spawn area, he would teleport (gate) back at low health.

Mobs would roam around buffing each other.  They would heal each other as well.

In EQ1, there was no ability that forced aggro on a tank without substantial threat.  The taunt ability only worked permitted you already established considerable threat, and if someone else only slightly out-aggro'd you.  If, say, a caster nuked or debuffed a mob early, taunt was worthless.

The best threat tanks were hybrid tanks, but they were the weaker of the tanks.  The warrior which was the superior tank class, had to rely on weapons that procced spells or magic items with expendable charges.  There was no easy way of generating threat as a warrior in EQ.

 

Those are just a few things that come to mind regarding aggro in classic Everquest.  Its no wonder people hate so hard on threat management systems when all modern MMOs provide their tank classes with surefire ways of keeping aggro with very little risk involved.

This is different from which MMO? Which single player game? Here is a clue it is not AI it is scripted and based on hard number thresholds. The NPC has no choice, X has more threat than Y, nevermind he is kiting me.

 

Let's all come back to this red herring topic once we see more AI in action.

Yes, you are right, they are all the same.  Oh wait, no there not.  Having played every major and most minor MMOs in the last 15 years, nothing was even vaguely similar to AI in EQ.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO, ArcheAge and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, Camelot Unchained & Shroud of the Avatar.
-
Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  NaMeNaMe

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/09
Posts: 91

8/16/13 4:30:18 PM#26
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe

OP, don't bother. I made a similar thread, people here don't understand a single thing required when creating what they Storybricks are creating. I'm extremely skeptical, I will not say it can not be done anymore but I'm not going to be dragged into believing the PR at face value like a lot of people here are.

I've watched Storybricks's AI video, so far it's exteremly basic and consists of using "tags" to determine situational outcomes in the mobs behavior. In theory the "tags" could create the AI they are talking about but that is in theory, until I see footage of this in action I say it can't be done.

Who said they believe it? Where did they say it? Stop arguing with people who do not exist.

Just a bit of advice: Not believing you or the OP has nothing to do with believing SOE.

What are you talking about. Look at this thread. Look at the amount of people writing. "Complicated AI has been around for ages, therefore it shouldn't be a problem for SOE"

"if u forcefully insert foriegn objects into my? body, i will die"

  User Deleted
8/16/13 4:32:22 PM#27
Originally posted by Dullahan

EQ1 had more advanced AI than any other mmo by a mile.  

Just a few examples of how things used to work back when games didn't cater to children and the mentally handicapped:

If you aggroed a mob, every mob within like a certain radius based on level would assist.  There was no mobs chained to other mobs, so you could use tactics to actually split them.  It was very common for someone to accidently pull dozens of mobs at a time because they would assist each other.

In EQ1, mobs would actually cast target based AE spells on you if you were standing near other party members (they'd never cast those spells otherwise). They would run up to you and point blank ae as well.  

If you were high on aggro list and you sat down, mobs would run up to you and get a free max damage round off on you, often 1 shotting you.  

If you had high aggro as say, a wizard, and went within melee range, a mob would often switch to attack you simply because of proximity.

If you were low health, regardless of anyone elses threat, the mob would go for you and attempt to finish you off and unless the mob was rooted or mezed, no amount of taunting would stop it.  Going below 20% on a boss meant you were the next to die if you weren't healed immediately.

Mobs would flee at low life if they were alone.  If they reached friendly mobs aggressive to you, they'd turn around.  If the mob was a caster and you pulled him away from his spawn area, he would teleport (gate) back at low health.

Mobs would roam around buffing each other.  They would heal each other as well.

In EQ1, there was no ability that forced aggro on a tank without substantial threat.  The taunt ability only worked permitted you already established considerable threat, and if someone else only slightly out-aggro'd you.  If, say, a caster nuked or debuffed a mob early, taunt was worthless.

The best threat tanks were hybrid tanks, but they were the weaker of the tanks.  The warrior which was the superior tank class, had to rely on weapons that procced spells or magic items with expendable charges.  There was no easy way of generating threat as a warrior in EQ.

 

Those are just a few things that come to mind regarding aggro in classic Everquest.  Its no wonder people hate so hard on threat management systems when all modern MMOs provide their tank classes with surefire ways of keeping aggro with very little risk involved.

Basically, stuff like this.

 

Is player heavily armored? /cast armor pierce ability

 

Is player using melee weapon against me? /cast disarm

 

Is player casting healing spell? /cast interrupt

 

Is player casting fire spells? /cast fire absorb shield

 

Are players within 3 meters of each other? /cast aoe

 

Is player under 20% health? /cast execute type ability

 

Really simple stuff like that could make your average encounter much more difficult, for the average player. Some games have already had mobs that do things like this for years. No super-advanced, state of the art developed by MIT for military applications type of AI needed. 

 

 

  grimfall

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/07
Posts: 1159

8/16/13 4:35:49 PM#28
Originally posted by dejoblue
Originally posted by Dullahan

 

This is different from which MMO? Which single player game? Here is a clue it is not AI it is scripted and based on hard number thresholds. The NPC has no choice, X has more threat than Y, nevermind he is kiting me.

 

Let's all come back to this red herring topic once we see more AI in action.

 Black pot... How do you play PVP.  You determine which players have the highest amount of threat and ???  Oh, you're a real person so instead of eliminating them you randomly choose someone else to attack, right?

So your solution to improving artificial intelligence is to encourage the NPC's to make poor choices?  I think we have differing view on what 'intelligence' means.  The mobs have to decide what action to take, who to attack, whether to run, when to heal, when to use AOE attacks etc.... it's not that hard to simulate those decisions to what a player would do.

The problem is, when you do that, the game isn't any fun.

 

"Hey man, what did you do today?", 

" I chased orcs around." 

"Really, get any loot?" 

"Uh, no, the orcs could see I was powerful, so I literally just chased them for three hours"

"Wow, that sounds like a lot of fun, see you tomorrow?"

You know what happens when you PVE players in a non-consensual PVP game?  They'd quit.  That's what Orcs would do it your ideal AI world, they'd all leave Norrath.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15956

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

8/16/13 4:36:07 PM#29
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe

OP, don't bother. I made a similar thread, people here don't understand a single thing required when creating what they Storybricks are creating. I'm extremely skeptical, I will not say it can not be done anymore but I'm not going to be dragged into believing the PR at face value like a lot of people here are.

I've watched Storybricks's AI video, so far it's exteremly basic and consists of using "tags" to determine situational outcomes in the mobs behavior. In theory the "tags" could create the AI they are talking about but that is in theory, until I see footage of this in action I say it can't be done.

Who said they believe it? Where did they say it? Stop arguing with people who do not exist.

Just a bit of advice: Not believing you or the OP has nothing to do with believing SOE.

What are you talking about. Look at this thread. Look at the amount of people writing. "Complicated AI has been around for ages, therefore it shouldn't be a problem for SOE"

You said people believe the PR, no one said they believe the PR, no one... SOE has not pulled it off, most people understand that. Also the first part of that statement is true, the second an assumption based on what (faith)? They still do not show any evidence of believing the PR. They're saying there's better AI out there than your typical MMO offers. That is not who you're attempting to argue with.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Dullahan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 798

Death to Themepark.

8/16/13 4:39:25 PM#30

The issue with AI isn't making it "smarter."  Thats just a matter of having pre-programmed instructions for all the general scenarios.  Theres really not that many variables, even if there are a hundreds.  

The problem people are overlooking is that traditional RPGs have classes, and every class has a function  When you make AI such that it circumvents a characters function or role, and only targets the physically weaker classes, the outcome will always be one of two things: a break down of the class functions where all classes are given the ability to become the de facto tank, whether its by evasion tanking (teleporting, jumping, dodging, rolling out of harms way) or changing the traditional class function to such that they are capable of physically tanking.  Thats it.  Those are the two options.  Evasion tanking = zerg combat.  Argue it all you want, but thats what guild wars 2 is.  An example of the other system is Darkfail where all classes are capable of becoming a tank by training defense and wearing heavy armor.

Its ok though, I'm sure SOE has found a way around this. 

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO, ArcheAge and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, Camelot Unchained & Shroud of the Avatar.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15956

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

8/16/13 4:41:55 PM#31
Originally posted by Dullahan

The issue with AI isn't making it "smarter."  Thats just a matter of having pre-programmed instructions for all the general scenarios.  Theres really not that many variables, even if there are a hundreds.  

The problem people are overlooking is that traditional RPGs have classes, and every class has a function  When you make AI such that it circumvents a characters function or role, and only targets the physically weaker classes, the outcome will always be one of two things: a break down of the class functions where all classes are given the ability to become the de facto tank, whether its by evasion tanking (teleporting, jumping, dodging, rolling out of harms way) or changing the traditional class function to such that they are capable of physically tanking.  Thats it.  Those are the two options.  Evasion tanking = zerg combat.  Argue it all you want, but thats what guild wars 2 is.  An example of the other system is Darkfail where all classes are capable of becoming a tank by training defense and wearing heavy armor.

Its ok though, I'm sure SOE has found a way around this. 

And then there's option 3: games like Dragons Dogma...

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  NaMeNaMe

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/09
Posts: 91

8/16/13 4:42:21 PM#32
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe

OP, don't bother. I made a similar thread, people here don't understand a single thing required when creating what they Storybricks are creating. I'm extremely skeptical, I will not say it can not be done anymore but I'm not going to be dragged into believing the PR at face value like a lot of people here are.

I've watched Storybricks's AI video, so far it's exteremly basic and consists of using "tags" to determine situational outcomes in the mobs behavior. In theory the "tags" could create the AI they are talking about but that is in theory, until I see footage of this in action I say it can't be done.

Who said they believe it? Where did they say it? Stop arguing with people who do not exist.

Just a bit of advice: Not believing you or the OP has nothing to do with believing SOE.

What are you talking about. Look at this thread. Look at the amount of people writing. "Complicated AI has been around for ages, therefore it shouldn't be a problem for SOE"

You said people believe the PR, no one said they believe the PR, no one... SOE has not pulled it off, most people understand that. Also the first part of that statement is true, the second an assumption based on what (faith)? They still do not show any evidence of believing the PR. They're saying there's better AI out there than your typical MMO offers. That is not who you're attempting to argue with.

 

No one huh. Just look at the thread i made. No one beileves it right?

"if u forcefully insert foriegn objects into my? body, i will die"

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15956

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

8/16/13 4:44:51 PM#33
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe

OP, don't bother. I made a similar thread, people here don't understand a single thing required when creating what they Storybricks are creating. I'm extremely skeptical, I will not say it can not be done anymore but I'm not going to be dragged into believing the PR at face value like a lot of people here are.

I've watched Storybricks's AI video, so far it's exteremly basic and consists of using "tags" to determine situational outcomes in the mobs behavior. In theory the "tags" could create the AI they are talking about but that is in theory, until I see footage of this in action I say it can't be done.

Who said they believe it? Where did they say it? Stop arguing with people who do not exist.

Just a bit of advice: Not believing you or the OP has nothing to do with believing SOE.

What are you talking about. Look at this thread. Look at the amount of people writing. "Complicated AI has been around for ages, therefore it shouldn't be a problem for SOE"

You said people believe the PR, no one said they believe the PR, no one... SOE has not pulled it off, most people understand that. Also the first part of that statement is true, the second an assumption based on what (faith)? They still do not show any evidence of believing the PR. They're saying there's better AI out there than your typical MMO offers. That is not who you're attempting to argue with.

 

No one huh. Just look at the thread i made. No one beileves it right?

have an example? Oh and  yes I've seen your thread, and it was nothing but theory crafting. Again your correlation is off, arguing with your declaration with examples and ideas, is not saying "SOE are teh bombzorz, I believe everything they say"

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  wizardanim

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/07
Posts: 279

8/16/13 4:52:28 PM#34
Originally posted by grimfall
Originally posted by wizardanim
Originally posted by BearKnight

Coming from the software development world I know for a FACT that SOE is not employing people from MIT's AI department for their game. This would be the only way to produce AI even close to challenging enough to make the "Trinity" system obsolete. However, even MIT hasn't created AI advanced enough to make this claim.

 

 

 

Seriously, it really is getting frustrating reading about this "Advanced AI" when it doesn't exist. It's like the CEO of Spandex coming out to tell everyone we have conquered the effects of "Gravity" to a room that has at LEAST one Physicist/Engineer that knows for a fact we haven't yet.

 

/endRant

As a software dev, I also know that advanced AI has existed for years, without machines to run it.  All in how you define what advanced is.

Weather it be continuous or discrete, AI requires heavy processing and decision making.  Dynamic or static ... learning vs. pre-computed.  The best AI is oriented toward its purpose.  I do not see any reason why SOE can not build a system that is specifically oriented around their purpose, just as Left 4 Dead did in their 2nd game.  They wrote a fantastic crowd solver for their zombies based on a dynamically branching AI.

This is no approach a software dev should take, as our job is oriented around problem solving.  Some amazing programs and code have been written by individuals who aren't in the crowd you suggest.  Even then, these prestigious colleges many times are forced to exclude smart people due to lack of funds, location, or culture.  If you really are a software dev, I don't see why you are so critical of SoE.

 

As a not software developer but someone who has the ability to read a magazine or an internet article, I  know that computer games don't use Artificial Intelligence.  What is used in games is code that basically boils down to series of if-then statements, whereas true AI  would be able to sit next to you and decide that it wants to play an MMO, then learn how to play it itself.  True AI = Skynet, that develops it's own motivations and then acts on those motives.  The orc in whatever game you're playing ain't Skynet.

But now that I've shaken my e-peen at you, to get back to the original topic, he's right.  Making the mobs act more like players in PVP scenarios just boils down to removing the taunt mechanic.  If you have a game where PVE uses taunt and PVP doesn't then no one is going to bother with killing tanks in PVP.  If the game puts the taunt mechanic into PVP, and you basically have to kill at least some of the tank classes first, then you'll kill them, and all of the sudden the PVE AI is just as smart as the players.

It's all very simple and has nothing to do with "difficulty of AI".  As a previous poster pointed out, EQ1 had really good PVE mob action simulation, and you all cried like little girls about trains and corpse runs and flocked to WoW when it came out because you could solo 3 monsters at once.

Are you saying that AI hasn't existed in computer games at all? AI is just automated decision making based on the data input to the system. 

Alright, as for the orange text.  So you're saying without taunt in EQ, the game combat would feel more like PVP'?  Wouldn't you have to add other mechanics to have the monster decide what other characters to kill? Or did you mean remove threat all together?

The additional logic behind what, how, and who a monster attacks or pursues is considered AI.  With PVP, you have a player, so you have the players intelligence.  If you remove taunt from EQ, but not the threat system you only have damage and proximity threat.  Then, the game becomes a ping pong battle.  You'll need additional logic to control the monsters actions, so what do you propose we call that logic?

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17599

8/16/13 5:03:39 PM#35
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe

OP, don't bother. I made a similar thread, people here don't understand a single thing required when creating what they Storybricks are creating. I'm extremely skeptical, I will not say it can not be done anymore but I'm not going to be dragged into believing the PR at face value like a lot of people here are.

I've watched Storybricks's AI video, so far it's exteremly basic and consists of using "tags" to determine situational outcomes in the mobs behavior. In theory the "tags" could create the AI they are talking about but that is in theory, until I see footage of this in action I say it can't be done.

Who said they believe it? Where did they say it? Stop arguing with people who do not exist.

Just a bit of advice: Not believing you or the OP has nothing to do with believing SOE.

What are you talking about. Look at this thread. Look at the amount of people writing. "Complicated AI has been around for ages, therefore it shouldn't be a problem for SOE"

So you are saying that none of us have read articles where developers have indicated that creating AI to beat the player is easy?

Well, "in any case" here is a GDC video on AI. about 20:08 and you can hear how one such developer indicates that creating AI to beat the player is easy. You don't even need great AI to do it.

You can then write him and tell him he's wrong.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014586/

  kjempff

Elite Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 778

Make worlds not stories

8/16/13 5:08:47 PM#36

I don't see why advanced AI wouldn't be doable, it is >>only<< a matter of creating a system of rules. It is different to create AI based on a limited set of known rules and possible outcomes, than to create real world AI that has to take into account all kind of unknowns.

What I don't see is that AI can replace roles or trinity as they claim, and if they think it can it will just end up as a bland roleless game..gwcoughtwo.

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 1113

8/16/13 5:11:38 PM#37
Taking words out of context +1
No EQN mobs will not have human level intelligence. The fact that there is debate is just silly. AI is a loose term just like ever other buzz word. It's great having no faith or calling SOE liars, but what's the point? Just to do it? EQN could have something better then we've seen I MMOs before or it could be equal or worse. Any assumptions are just that. Either take their word for it until proven false or move along. Regardless if they have amazing AI or not, I'm assuming many haters would have 1000 other reasons EQN is going to fail, doesn't match up 100% to their definition of a word, or whatever reasoning for not liking it. No one is forcing anyone to follow or play anything. If you feel you're being lied to, why stick around?
  kilun

Novice Member

Joined: 12/25/07
Posts: 691

8/16/13 5:12:45 PM#38
Originally posted by Ehliya

I have to agree with the points made on existing AI.  I think the reason companies don't use full-fledged AI for monster opponents is that it would be too much for the players to contend with.

Try playing Dragon Age, the Bioware RPG, on hard mode WITHOUT using the space-bar to pause the action.  In many encounters the human is simply overwhelmed - people cannot hit the keys on a keyboard fast enough to match the AI.

Imagine a smart monster with appropriate AI in EQN:

 

- Let's say an ancient Liche who has survived ages.  A party of adventurers shows up to claim his treasure.  Usually this means fighting through predictable encounters of steadily increasing difficulty with the Liche's followers until you reach the inner sanctum, where said Liche obligingly makes his final stand.

Now imagine...

- the adventurers show up at the Liche lair to find - no one.  Unbeknownst to them, the Liche knew they were coming and decided to prepare a surprise.  As the adventurers head out, disappointed, he springs his trap as he and his followers emerge en masse from a hidden passage and steamroll the adventurers.

This would be way, way out of most MMO players comfort zones.  People want to relax and bash keys while the bodies of the enemy (and the treasure loot) piles up.  Not have to out-think Skynet...

Exactly.  This would spell doom for the player base and a few might enjoy it.  But your average and above average player would be like, yeah.. I play for fun not to get steam rolled all the time.

People keep wanting to say super AI doesn't exist, it has, it is just that players don't want to play against it.  It is not fun.  If given the option to allow it in a few instances might be the best route, so then people can be like..yeah ok lets not have that, except the elite few, toss in an achievement for it so they can feel special and waltz around with a nifty I smoked the shit out of the place title.

  onlinenow25

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 282

8/16/13 5:17:42 PM#39

I think what the true issue here is is that when the OP thinks of AI he thinks of it in the truest form, that is in a non-technical description a computer that can fool a human into thinking that the computer is a human player.  

 

That is what perfect AI is.  Sony saying they are going to have improved AI compared to other MMOs is not even in the same ball park.  What needs to be focused on is the word 'improved' or w/ever term they used to describe their AI.  Unless they specifically said perfect/true/human like AI then they are simply saying improved AI.

 

I remember back when one of the selling points of FPS's was improved AI.  I remember it was a trend up until Half-life 2 and Doom 3 came out.  Around then it seemed gaming exploded.  From what I remember it was no longer just about the nerd playing video games it changed to a larger audience.  I remember at Fry's, Best Buy, Comp USA they all had signs posted with computer specs for Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 because even fewer people built their computers and knew what their specs were.

 

The PR isn't a lie yet.  If they follow through with improved AI then its not a lie.  The game dosn't have to fool players into thinking NPC's are players to be improved AI, an improvement is relative.

  superconducting

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 738

8/16/13 5:18:08 PM#40
Originally posted by lizardbones

Blizzard did an interview, or wrote an article several years ago talking about the combat AI. I'm paraphrasing, but they basically said writing a good combat AI would be easy. The AI could have all the abilities that a player would have, it would be situationally aware and wouldn't get excited and make mistakes. It would use the ideal combination of abilities for any given situation. They need that kind of AI for testing.

They didn't use the more advanced AI because it wouldn't be fun for players. The AI was too good to be used against players. It would be good for testing though.

SOE is doing something completely different with the Story Bricks AI. That gnoll will attack because it is angry with you for killing his brothers. Or the gnoll will move to a less populated part of the world so it is easier to attack adventurers. The combat AI is going to be a version of that kind of behavior. It won't make perfect decisions, but if it's attacking someone, and another player heals that someone, it'll attack the healer instead of making the right decision at the beginning of the fight and attacking the healer right away. Something like that anyway. Or even better, mobs in groups will act like they are a group, repositioning themselves, healing each other and possibly running away.

The group AI has been done years ago in single player games. At least a single player game. Groups of mobs would have a leader and they would have the ability to do things as a group. If the leader was killed, the group would be disorganized unless another one of the mobs moved into the position of leader, and they would again act as an organized group.

"Intelligent" AI isn't smoke and mirrors, and it's not science fiction. It is well within the realm of what can be done. The only important part is that is has to be fun. Keep in mind that mobs don't exist to replace players, they are there to provide a challenge, and ultimately drop loot.

 

+1

I love how the OP thinks that only MIT has the capability to make good enough AI.

/lawl

 

But seriously, where is the PROOF that AI was not done right in EQN? That's right, we have none--- Because we haven't seen the AI in action!! That alone makes this entire thread (rant rather) INVALID by default.

Sorry, but like many others in this thread, I'm calling complete baloney on this one. You can't judge anything until you've seen it.

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