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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » "Advanced AI, smart enough to make Trinity obsolete" is an outright PR lie.

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325 posts found
  EQBallzz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 102

8/23/13 12:53:32 AM#241
Originally posted by cowboyoni
Originally posted by EQBallzz
Originally posted by Dracock
Originally posted by Dullahan

It has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with the ability to protect other players and absorb damage.  Whether its by generating threat or just preventing them from getting to their would-be victims with abilities and collision, that is what defines a tank.

Tanks protect other players in LoL. They do just about everything you guys say they should. Yet you seem intent on arguing anyway.

This leads me to believe you guys do not consider the champions in LoL, Tanks. Despite that their job is to Tank. The quoted poster has gone against the definition used by millions of other players, to more narrowly define a Tank so that the word only fits in a trinity system. It's a semantic argument about the meaning of the word Tank.

I don't see how you can claim debating the definition of a Tank is not arguing semantics. I guess that is all that is left to dispute, considering LoL is live proof that you do not need a trinity for different group roles to take place. One of those roles of requires you to be capable of tanking lots of damage.

 

I don't play LoL so I don't comment on LoL. That being said is LoL an MMO? No. I don't care about the comparison of an MMO class scheme to an arena pvp game or whatever the fuck it is. It's also a structured pvp game so again...not comparing an MMO that is primarily PVE with an arena pvp game. Dark Souls doesn't need a trinity system, either and that's also irrelevant.

They already said their class system would be something similar to a MOBA, that is what makes discussing team combat against A.I in LoL relevant to the conversation.

Besides whats the big deal if 1 MMO out of thousands try's something different from the traditional trinity tank taunt/aggro system. Don't worry there will still be plenty of mmos with the traditional system you prefer, go play that.

 

Fair enough on the LoL point but it remains to be seen how well a confined arena pvp combat system converts to an open PVE MMO system. If the group dynamic ends up like GW2 (which is what it sounds like) I will play something else and so will most other people because that group dynamic sucks balls. I'll be happy to be wrong if they have come up with an actual role system that has some interdependence and is not trinity and not GW2 but they haven't revealed anything other than some vague statements indicating there won't be aggro management or dedicated healing. Their statements inevitably lead to images of the chaotic mess that the GW2 group combat is which is where the concern lies I think.

  Eeks

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/13
Posts: 72

8/23/13 1:48:34 AM#242
Originally posted by EQBallzz
Originally posted by cowboyoni
Originally posted by EQBallzz
Originally posted by Dracock
Originally posted by Dullahan

It has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with the ability to protect other players and absorb damage.  Whether its by generating threat or just preventing them from getting to their would-be victims with abilities and collision, that is what defines a tank.

Tanks protect other players in LoL. They do just about everything you guys say they should. Yet you seem intent on arguing anyway.

This leads me to believe you guys do not consider the champions in LoL, Tanks. Despite that their job is to Tank. The quoted poster has gone against the definition used by millions of other players, to more narrowly define a Tank so that the word only fits in a trinity system. It's a semantic argument about the meaning of the word Tank.

I don't see how you can claim debating the definition of a Tank is not arguing semantics. I guess that is all that is left to dispute, considering LoL is live proof that you do not need a trinity for different group roles to take place. One of those roles of requires you to be capable of tanking lots of damage.

 

I don't play LoL so I don't comment on LoL. That being said is LoL an MMO? No. I don't care about the comparison of an MMO class scheme to an arena pvp game or whatever the fuck it is. It's also a structured pvp game so again...not comparing an MMO that is primarily PVE with an arena pvp game. Dark Souls doesn't need a trinity system, either and that's also irrelevant.

They already said their class system would be something similar to a MOBA, that is what makes discussing team combat against A.I in LoL relevant to the conversation.

Besides whats the big deal if 1 MMO out of thousands try's something different from the traditional trinity tank taunt/aggro system. Don't worry there will still be plenty of mmos with the traditional system you prefer, go play that.

 

Fair enough on the LoL point but it remains to be seen how well a confined arena pvp combat system converts to an open PVE MMO system. If the group dynamic ends up like GW2 (which is what it sounds like) I will play something else and so will most other people because that group dynamic sucks balls. I'll be happy to be wrong if they have come up with an actual role system that has some interdependence and is not trinity and not GW2 but they haven't revealed anything other than some vague statements indicating there won't be aggro management or dedicated healing. Their statements inevitably lead to images of the chaotic mess that the GW2 group combat is which is where the concern lies I think.

Well based on what Georgeson said today... it's not what you're thinking.  He didn't say the combat system was going to be like LoL, he said class roles would be similar to what you see in MOBA's.  As such, he said you'd need varied roles to succeed, which from what I've read (I haven't played it) GW2 seems to just push everyone to be dps.  They seem pretty confident about it not being like GW2 so we'll see if it ends up like that.

  Dullahan

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 748

Death to Themepark.

8/23/13 8:03:39 AM#243
Originally posted by Eeks
Originally posted by EQBallzz
Originally posted by cowboyoni
Originally posted by EQBallzz
Originally posted by Dracock
Originally posted by Dullahan

It has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with the ability to protect other players and absorb damage.  Whether its by generating threat or just preventing them from getting to their would-be victims with abilities and collision, that is what defines a tank.

Tanks protect other players in LoL. They do just about everything you guys say they should. Yet you seem intent on arguing anyway.

This leads me to believe you guys do not consider the champions in LoL, Tanks. Despite that their job is to Tank. The quoted poster has gone against the definition used by millions of other players, to more narrowly define a Tank so that the word only fits in a trinity system. It's a semantic argument about the meaning of the word Tank.

I don't see how you can claim debating the definition of a Tank is not arguing semantics. I guess that is all that is left to dispute, considering LoL is live proof that you do not need a trinity for different group roles to take place. One of those roles of requires you to be capable of tanking lots of damage.

 

I don't play LoL so I don't comment on LoL. That being said is LoL an MMO? No. I don't care about the comparison of an MMO class scheme to an arena pvp game or whatever the fuck it is. It's also a structured pvp game so again...not comparing an MMO that is primarily PVE with an arena pvp game. Dark Souls doesn't need a trinity system, either and that's also irrelevant.

They already said their class system would be something similar to a MOBA, that is what makes discussing team combat against A.I in LoL relevant to the conversation.

Besides whats the big deal if 1 MMO out of thousands try's something different from the traditional trinity tank taunt/aggro system. Don't worry there will still be plenty of mmos with the traditional system you prefer, go play that.

 

Fair enough on the LoL point but it remains to be seen how well a confined arena pvp combat system converts to an open PVE MMO system. If the group dynamic ends up like GW2 (which is what it sounds like) I will play something else and so will most other people because that group dynamic sucks balls. I'll be happy to be wrong if they have come up with an actual role system that has some interdependence and is not trinity and not GW2 but they haven't revealed anything other than some vague statements indicating there won't be aggro management or dedicated healing. Their statements inevitably lead to images of the chaotic mess that the GW2 group combat is which is where the concern lies I think.

Well based on what Georgeson said today... it's not what you're thinking.  He didn't say the combat system was going to be like LoL, he said class roles would be similar to what you see in MOBA's.  As such, he said you'd need varied roles to succeed, which from what I've read (I haven't played it) GW2 seems to just push everyone to be dps.  They seem pretty confident about it not being like GW2 so we'll see if it ends up like that.

What people don't understand, is its not that classes in gw2 aren't diverse, its just without devoted roles like healers or tanks and a system of threat management, classes inevitably become some form of dps and combat degenerates into fleeing and chasing, aka, the zerg.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, and Archeage.
-
Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10552

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

8/23/13 8:11:21 AM#244


Originally posted by Dullahan
What people don't understand, is its not that classes in gw2 aren't diverse, its just without devoted roles like healers or tanks and a system of threat management, classes inevitably become some form of dps and combat degenerates into fleeing and chasing, aka, the zerg.


People understand threat based mechanics just fine.

They also understand there isn't just one way to do things. It is possible, as people have explained in this thread, to have players fulfill different roles in combat, without having dedicated class roles. It doesn't have to involve direct threat management. It may be more difficult because players will have to switch from healing to dps and possibly to some form of crowd control in the same fight, but it is certainly possible.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3272

8/23/13 8:17:21 AM#245
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Dullahan
What people don't understand, is its not that classes in gw2 aren't diverse, its just without devoted roles like healers or tanks and a system of threat management, classes inevitably become some form of dps and combat degenerates into fleeing and chasing, aka, the zerg.



People understand threat based mechanics just fine.

They also understand there isn't just one way to do things. It is possible, as people have explained in this thread, to have players fulfill different roles in combat, without having dedicated class roles. It doesn't have to involve direct threat management. It may be more difficult because players will have to switch from healing to dps and possibly to some form of crowd control in the same fight, but it is certainly possible.

 

     That all sounds good, but unlikely.. Either combat will be structured roles, or chaotic zerg..  It can't be both or somewhere in the middle..  The things you bring up such as people switching from heals to CC to support, only exist in fights that last longer then 10 seconds.. GW2 tried to do that, and it's a joke.. CC in gw2 is a 2 second delay in combat.. Why even bother then..  That is where people just say , the hell with it, and just ZERG..  If you are going to have roles, combat has to last longer then a burp.. 

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3427

8/23/13 8:24:50 AM#246
No game has done it, been promised but never delivered. Every game that does not have the trinity ends in zerg game play. My guess it will be the same here. Can it be done? Maybe one day. I do hope they have something.
  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8591

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

8/23/13 9:39:26 AM#247

The problem with the trinity is the fact that it wasnt created by game developers but by players..    Its only logical that if you want to create a team thats stronger then  the sum of he individualls that you want...

- the mobs must hit the player with the most defense..

- players buffing your team mates

- players debuffing the monsters

- players try to cut off ennemies from the fight, or temporarely disabling them from a fight trying to prevent them from doing damage

- players trying to heal their friends 

- players trying to actually damage the mobs..

 

i cant think of any other roles in a fight...  The trinnity has been born by people trying to specialise in a single or just a few of those tions...  And in my book its only natural to give people skills along hose lines, because that adds to the natural flow of the fight.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  User Deleted
8/23/13 10:22:28 AM#248
Originally posted by BearKnight

Coming from the software development world I know for a FACT that SOE is not employing people from MIT's AI department for their game. This would be the only way to produce AI even close to challenging enough to make the "Trinity" system obsolete. However, even MIT hasn't created AI advanced enough to make this claim.

 Seriously, it really is getting frustrating reading about this "Advanced AI" when it doesn't exist. It's like the CEO of Spandex coming out to tell everyone we have conquered the effects of "Gravity" to a room that has at LEAST one Physicist/Engineer that knows for a fact we haven't yet.

 

/endRant

Seeing as I wrote extremely intelligent AI which pretty much slaughtered the players in Neverwinter Nights in 2002, I must say you don't need an MIT engineer to make challenging, intelligent AI.

 

The AI we have right now in most MMOS is so stupid-simple, you have NO idea. I've coded that, too, and really... it is STUPID simple to code it. That's why when I see aggro snafus like NWO had at launch with the healers tanking, I just facepalm.

 

All they would have to do to make it 10X as intelligent as any existing MMO is take the existing "aggro" mechanic and just add a second dimension of "target value". I'm pretty sure Blizzard actually did this and removed it save for internal tests because players died left right and center.

 

Fast forward, and we're up to the challenge, I think. The code has existed for years and years, no one used it because they were babying players.

  IADaveMark

AI Design on EQN

Joined: 8/16/13
Posts: 10

8/23/13 10:31:50 AM#249
Originally posted by Lanessar

Seeing as I wrote extremely intelligent AI which pretty much slaughtered the players in Neverwinter Nights in 2002, I must say you don't need an MIT engineer to make challenging, intelligent AI.

The AI we have right now in most MMOS is so stupid-simple, you have NO idea. I've coded that, too, and really... it is STUPID simple to code it. That's why when I see aggro snafus like NWO had at launch with the healers tanking, I just facepalm.

All they would have to do to make it 10X as intelligent as any existing MMO is take the existing "aggro" mechanic and just add a second dimension of "target value". I'm pretty sure Blizzard actually did this and removed it save for internal tests because players died left right and center.

Fast forward, and we're up to the challenge, I think. The code has existed for years and years, no one used it because they were babying players.

*raises hands*

Preach, brother!

President & Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm,
Author of Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI,
Game AI consultant, GDC AI Summit advisor, co-founder of AIGPG | IntrinsicAlgorithm.com

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8591

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

8/23/13 10:45:13 AM#250
Originally posted by Lanessar
Originally posted by BearKnight

Coming from the software development world I know for a FACT that SOE is not employing people from MIT's AI department for their game. This would be the only way to produce AI even close to challenging enough to make the "Trinity" system obsolete. However, even MIT hasn't created AI advanced enough to make this claim.

 Seriously, it really is getting frustrating reading about this "Advanced AI" when it doesn't exist. It's like the CEO of Spandex coming out to tell everyone we have conquered the effects of "Gravity" to a room that has at LEAST one Physicist/Engineer that knows for a fact we haven't yet.

 

/endRant

Seeing as I wrote extremely intelligent AI which pretty much slaughtered the players in Neverwinter Nights in 2002, I must say you don't need an MIT engineer to make challenging, intelligent AI.

 

The AI we have right now in most MMOS is so stupid-simple, you have NO idea. I've coded that, too, and really... it is STUPID simple to code it. That's why when I see aggro snafus like NWO had at launch with the healers tanking, I just facepalm.

 

All they would have to do to make it 10X as intelligent as any existing MMO is take the existing "aggro" mechanic and just add a second dimension of "target value". I'm pretty sure Blizzard actually did this and removed it save for internal tests because players died left right and center.

 

Fast forward, and we're up to the challenge, I think. The code has existed for years and years, no one used it because they were babying players.

 

So you add a target vallue mechanic to the fights to make them less predictable and more random... 

 

Sounds great, but wouldnt that mean that you simply make the agro mechanics less reliable?  And that lowering the power of the agro abillity would net in the same result of other classes getting more agro?

 

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  User Deleted
8/23/13 10:53:01 AM#251
Next gen ai is monitoring your habits. Pve is essentially going to be just like pvp. The worlds will be reacting and making decisions based on what you do. They will be spontaneously programable as well. Perhaps one day they are content and the next they are angry and the next the are fighting each other and the next they are behaving as they would based on what happens around them.
  jesusjuice69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 293

8/23/13 10:53:06 AM#252
Originally posted by IADaveMark
Originally posted by Lanessar

Seeing as I wrote extremely intelligent AI which pretty much slaughtered the players in Neverwinter Nights in 2002, I must say you don't need an MIT engineer to make challenging, intelligent AI.

The AI we have right now in most MMOS is so stupid-simple, you have NO idea. I've coded that, too, and really... it is STUPID simple to code it. That's why when I see aggro snafus like NWO had at launch with the healers tanking, I just facepalm.

All they would have to do to make it 10X as intelligent as any existing MMO is take the existing "aggro" mechanic and just add a second dimension of "target value". I'm pretty sure Blizzard actually did this and removed it save for internal tests because players died left right and center.

Fast forward, and we're up to the challenge, I think. The code has existed for years and years, no one used it because they were babying players.

*raises hands*

Preach, brother!

[mod edit]

 

A smart AI would always win over players, especially if their numbers were substantially larger.  Which is why it is impossible to have a smart AI, as it can only end in 2 ways. 

#1  impossible

It isn't hard to tell the AI to go kill the cloth priest in the back, and to do so with burst damage greater than their health or the rate of healing possible by the group.  Thus, they can't be healed, and eventually they are guaranteed to die.

#2  Zerg

The only way something like this can work is if there is no weak cloth healer in the back/  In which case the person the AI attacks is almost random, and everyone becomes a tank.  Sort of like what we saw at Quakecon for ESO.  That is a zerg,  which yields strategy as pointless.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

8/23/13 1:29:21 PM#253
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by IADaveMark
Originally posted by Lanessar

Seeing as I wrote extremely intelligent AI which pretty much slaughtered the players in Neverwinter Nights in 2002, I must say you don't need an MIT engineer to make challenging, intelligent AI.

The AI we have right now in most MMOS is so stupid-simple, you have NO idea. I've coded that, too, and really... it is STUPID simple to code it. That's why when I see aggro snafus like NWO had at launch with the healers tanking, I just facepalm.

All they would have to do to make it 10X as intelligent as any existing MMO is take the existing "aggro" mechanic and just add a second dimension of "target value". I'm pretty sure Blizzard actually did this and removed it save for internal tests because players died left right and center.

Fast forward, and we're up to the challenge, I think. The code has existed for years and years, no one used it because they were babying players.

*raises hands*

Preach, brother!

[mod edit]

 

Rofl... you can lead a horse to water... 

 

Anyone else... if you're truly interested in how they are doing it in EQN, you can get an education on utility-based AI with two 1-hour lectures, one form the 2010 Game Developers Conference and the other one from 2012: 

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012410/Improving-AI-Decision-Modeling-Through

http://gdcvault.com/play/1015683/Embracing-the-Dark-Art-of

 

PS. Despite this JJ guy's repeated posts to the contrary, that actually is the guy responsible for the AI you keep discussing in this thread. 

  cowboyoni

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/12
Posts: 37

8/24/13 12:24:02 AM#254
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by IADaveMark
Originally posted by Lanessar

Seeing as I wrote extremely intelligent AI which pretty much slaughtered the players in Neverwinter Nights in 2002, I must say you don't need an MIT engineer to make challenging, intelligent AI.

The AI we have right now in most MMOS is so stupid-simple, you have NO idea. I've coded that, too, and really... it is STUPID simple to code it. That's why when I see aggro snafus like NWO had at launch with the healers tanking, I just facepalm.

All they would have to do to make it 10X as intelligent as any existing MMO is take the existing "aggro" mechanic and just add a second dimension of "target value". I'm pretty sure Blizzard actually did this and removed it save for internal tests because players died left right and center.

Fast forward, and we're up to the challenge, I think. The code has existed for years and years, no one used it because they were babying players.

*raises hands*

Preach, brother!

[mod edit]

 

Rofl... you can lead a horse to water... 

 

Anyone else... if you're truly interested in how they are doing it in EQN, you can get an education on utility-based AI with two 1-hour lectures, one form the 2010 Game Developers Conference and the other one from 2012: 

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012410/Improving-AI-Decision-Modeling-Through

http://gdcvault.com/play/1015683/Embracing-the-Dark-Art-of

 

PS. Despite this JJ guy's repeated posts to the contrary, that actually is the guy responsible for the AI you keep discussing in this thread. 

Thx for both links they were interesting to watch. I think a basic misunderstanding in much of this thread is that AI in video games really doesn't have to do with the AI's ability to win against the player. In video games it has much more to do with getting to AI to behave in more engaging/realistic way. The trinity system with taunt is by it's nature simplistic and unrealistic. Taunt boils down to telling the AI what to do. To use a boxing analogy, this is like boxer A telling Boxer B to guard low so I can hit high and then boxer B doing as he/she was told. It is stupid.

As for the assertion by the OP that it would take people from MIT to accomplish this sort of engaging AI in an mmo. Well sry but that is just dumb. I don't know what sort of mythical status the OP puts on MIT. If I said "I need a new operating system for PCs" I would have much more faith that Microsoft could do that than a group of people from MIT. I trust game devs in the video game industry much more to come up with engaging pve content in video games that eliminates the need for taunt holly trinity much more that I do MIT. Who as far as I know have never created a successful video game AI.

  Torcip

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 614

8/24/13 12:28:07 AM#255
I think the majority of you people are confusing advanced AI with Intelligent AI.  An AI who can be program to wipe the floor with a group, can also be programmed to be stupid. Not every Mob that shares the same AI has to be a genius.
  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4739

8/24/13 12:39:17 AM#256
Originally posted by cowboyoni
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
***snip for length***

Rofl... you can lead a horse to water... 

Anyone else... if you're truly interested in how they are doing it in EQN, you can get an education on utility-based AI with two 1-hour lectures, one form the 2010 Game Developers Conference and the other one from 2012: 

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012410/Improving-AI-Decision-Modeling-Through

http://gdcvault.com/play/1015683/Embracing-the-Dark-Art-of

PS. Despite this JJ guy's repeated posts to the contrary, that actually is the guy responsible for the AI you keep discussing in this thread. 

Thx for both links they were interesting to watch. I think a basic misunderstanding in much of this thread is that AI in video games really doesn't have to do with the AI's ability to win against the player. In video games it has much more to do with getting to AI to behave in more engaging/realistic way. The trinity system with taunt is by it's nature simplistic and unrealistic. Taunt boils down to telling the AI what to do. To use a boxing analogy, this is like boxer A telling Boxer B to guard low so I can hit high and then boxer B doing as he/she was told. It is stupid.

As for the assertion by the OP that it would take people from MIT to accomplish this sort of engaging AI in an mmo. Well sry but that is just dumb. I don't know what sort of mythical status the OP puts on MIT. If I said "I need a new operating system for PCs" I would have much more faith that Microsoft could do that than a group of people from MIT. I trust game devs in the video game industry much more to come up with engaging pve content in video games that eliminates the need for taunt holly trinity much more that I do MIT. Who as far as I know have never created a successful video game AI.

This is indeed part of the problem.

I remember in one of the other threads someone was linking a talk given by the AI programmer for Civilization. This is a really good example of what you're talking about, and he partially goes into the difference between AI programmed for 'fun' and AI programmed to 'win'. However, he doesn't ever really talk about AI based on anything else, because in a strategy game it's not necessary.

And you're absolutely right. Different mobs can have different motivations for their AI. Humans may be motivated by expansion and conquest. Goblins may be motivated by looting & finding good places to hide. Ogres may favor certain environments (i.e. large cave-like structures), but want to avoid others, or have more simplistic AI. Etc. In a persistant world 'winning' isn't really a good criteria outside of specific battles, because there is no real 'win' state. It's all about territory & resource management.

- Furthermore, when it does come to combat (as you've pointed out), MMOs have had overly simplistic AI via the taunt mechanic for over 2 generations now. There are a lot more refined ways to condition a mob to behave. I.E. GW2 (as much as some people hate on the game) begins to show us that. By gauging things like player proximity, health, damage / healing output, whether they are trying to revive someone, etc. However, mobs can even go further in EQN to involve things like the environment. Trying to position players into bad spots (cornering) or smashing down pillars to try and trigger a cave in. There's a lot of possibilities there beyond the standard, scripted mechanics + aggro bar.

** and I agree with you about the OP. I have no idea why him being a software developer has anything to do with AI programming, knowing the payroll of this specific game, or requiring MIT graduates to program this sort of AI. They're laughable notions to the point where I have to question whether that guy is what he claims. Because if he is a software developer, he doesn't seem to be thinking a whole lot through in his statements.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4739

8/24/13 12:40:56 AM#257
Originally posted by Torcip
I think the majority of you people are confusing advanced AI with Intelligent AI.  An AI who can be program to wipe the floor with a group, can also be programmed to be stupid. Not every Mob that shares the same AI has to be a genius.

Well said.

And indeed, since EQN is trying to combine many different races into the world, it would even make sense to have a mix of different lvls of 'intelligence' for different mobs. (i.e. goblins / ogres have dumber AI, humans / bosses / demons have smarter AI)

  STYNKFYST

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/13
Posts: 313

8/24/13 12:44:24 AM#258

I'll not wade through the posts.....

 

It doesn't take ground breaking AI to make the false trinity obsolete. It was obsolete to begin with.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

8/24/13 1:03:09 AM#259
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Torcip
I think the majority of you people are confusing advanced AI with Intelligent AI.  An AI who can be program to wipe the floor with a group, can also be programmed to be stupid. Not every Mob that shares the same AI has to be a genius.

Well said.

And indeed, since EQN is trying to combine many different races into the world, it would even make sense to have a mix of different lvls of 'intelligence' for different mobs. (i.e. goblins / ogres have dumber AI, humans / bosses / demons have smarter AI)

It's exciting heady stuff. And having developers focus on bringing the AI up to a respectable level as a priority is a treat. It's about time that a challenging fight meant more than just a mob with more hit points. It can mean instead one that is noticeably more intelligent than others. This is the feature of EQN that I am most looking forward to. PVE with a challenge similar to PVP would be a nice change of pace. 

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4739

8/24/13 1:13:29 AM#260
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Torcip
I think the majority of you people are confusing advanced AI with Intelligent AI.  An AI who can be program to wipe the floor with a group, can also be programmed to be stupid. Not every Mob that shares the same AI has to be a genius.

Well said.

And indeed, since EQN is trying to combine many different races into the world, it would even make sense to have a mix of different lvls of 'intelligence' for different mobs. (i.e. goblins / ogres have dumber AI, humans / bosses / demons have smarter AI)

It's exciting heady stuff. And having developers focus on bringing the AI up to a respectable level as a priority is a treat. It's about time that a challenging fight meant more than just a mob with more hit points. It can mean instead one that is noticeably more intelligent than others. This is the feature of EQN that I am most looking forward to. PVE with a challenge similar to PVP would be a nice change of pace. 

I couldn't agree more.

And after playing games like Shadow of the Colossus, Dragon's Dogma, Last of Us, etc. I'm ready to start seeing more challenging & interesting dynamics in our MMOs. I have been for quite some time. While I enjoy the simplicity of the EQ model, I'm also the type of gamer that enjoys a challenge. Sadly almost no MMOs really challenge their players. The 'difficulty' in most of these games is how much time you can spend farming X or Y. The actually combat can be done 1 handed while eating a sandwich.

I'm ready for smarter games, and I really really hope (but have my doubts) that the rest of the genre is too.

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