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Mortal Online

Mortal Online 

General Discussion  » August Greenlight List- No Mortal Online

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59 posts found
  Ramanadjinn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1312

8/25/13 2:08:47 PM#21
Originally posted by Jacxolope
 MO is essentially a PVP arena, very little sand, poor implementation, badly coded, bug filled and managed by snake oil salesmen.

 

 

I guess i'll just say whatever game  you guys played doesn't sound like the one I play and leave my participation in the thread at that.

99% of the community is just going to run this game into the ground regardless of what anyone says and i'm not going to change that.

 

 

I would be more willing to fight the rabid haters but this thread isn't really about that and i'm not going to drag it off topic.

  Jacxolope

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 746

8/25/13 2:19:47 PM#22
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Jacxolope
 MO is essentially a PVP arena, very little sand, poor implementation, badly coded, bug filled and managed by snake oil salesmen.

 

 

I guess i'll just say whatever game  you guys played doesn't sound like the one I play and leave my participation in the thread at that.

99% of the community is just going to run this game into the ground regardless of what anyone says and i'm not going to change that.

SV ran their own game into the ground, and no- You cannot change that ...

Blaming this community for the failure of MO is a sad misdirection. If it were a good game (and a working sandbox) from a decent company- NOTHING anyone could say (here or elsewhere) would have stopped its success. 

 

On that note- See ya, I guess.

  VassagoMael

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/09/12
Posts: 523

8/25/13 2:36:46 PM#23
Best MMO news this month.

Free to play = content updates for the cash shop. Buy to play = content updates for the cash shop.
Subscription = Actual content updates!

  argirop

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/09
Posts: 326

8/25/13 3:31:08 PM#24
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

 

The map was an example, i'm not certain you got the full impact of what my actual intended point about it was as your comment about hitting M seems to indicate.

Still, i've never claimed MO is perfect and every single design choice and system the developers have implemented is perfect or working well.  I only claimed I feel it is overall a well designed game.   You disagree apparently, I guess thats just the way it goes.

I outlined in my post why I feel it does not keep an audience and I don't really feel the need to restate any of it.

As far as why it has not been greenlit, I can't explain that.  I'm no subject matter expert on Steam and its policies.

 

Out of the 10 or so friends i've had try the game, 8 logged in and skinned the pig in the tutorial area and left immediately and haven't gone back.  They are playing Neverwinter now.  The two that made it past that point are still playing MO and claim it is "an amazing game" and "the game we have always wanted" respectively.

My main point within the thread is that I feel for those 2 people out of a hundred that will enjoy it, I wish Steam would pick it up.   So that those few who are into this sort of game will have that exposure to it. 

I'm not certain why you made this thread if you have such animosity towards the game or why you are playing it.  I was hoping to find here on this subforum at least a couple of other folks who are into this sort of sandbox game that I enjoy.

http://www.techopedia.com/definition/3952/sandbox

Thats a detailed definition on what Sandbox means. I ll stay on the most important part which is the ability for players to interract with the world and actualy change it. The sanbox aspects of MO are: 1) the ability to build houses and keeps in fixed spots 2) the possibility to break those structures down and 3) the ability to deplete resources and vains with gathering.

 

Now if a game can be considered a sandbox title because it has those 3 features then again Age of Conan is a sanbox title aswell. MO 3 years after release is a shadow of a game. The world is empty. Theres nothing to explore. The interractions with the enviroment and the world of Nave are simply not there. The AI is a joke. The pvp is simply laughable. Server's stability is equal to the one with a canister of nitroglycerine in the hands of a monkey. Game's lore is uknown to the public due to the fact that is written in "advanced Swedish" that no one can translate to English not even to "regular Swedish".  Game's staff are volunteers that playing the game and have guild afiliations, hold grudges and in many occasions that made it to the light and many more that didnt made it, they are affecting the outcome of battles and even wars. The developer(s) of the game is lets politely say a bit unskilled and the game is riddled with bugs. Each patch is supposed to fix bugs but intoduces multiple new and brings back several old ones. And i could go on forever with a neverending list that is walking side by side with MO since the beta times.

 

If you say its a well designed game, i say its a poorly designed game and unfortunatelly that poor and shallow designed is terribly implemented by people that never had the slightest idea what they wanted to do regarding with their own game. The lack of features (the map for example) cannot be considered "good design" nor harcore. You know what would be considered hardcore? players to create or draw their own map as they progress in the world of Nave, exactly as they advertised at the birth of mo. But like it or not features like that will not make it in game. Ever that is. 

Personally i wouldnt mind at all for a miracle to happen and MO make it into Greenlight. Then everyone will see that the game is nothing more than a piece of crap. Now if you believe that Greenlight will bring more income to SV and they will use those sources towards developement, that is not gonna happen either. SV had more than one chances to use incomes towards MO's developement but they blew it up again and again insisting on developing a game with uneducated and unskilled amateurs instead of hiring professionals. Remember the preorders fiasco? What happened to the incomes from the 10ths of thousand of copies that didnt cost them anything? The exact same thing thats happening with the donations: Sinking in a bottomless pit.

If you ask me: does MO desrves to make it through Greenlight, does it have a minimum quality to be in Steam? then the answer is certainly not. From the other hand though i would love to see what will happen if it does. Highly doubt it will though. Cheers.

  Biskop

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/11
Posts: 731

8/25/13 4:00:36 PM#25
Originally posted by Jacxolope
 

No...Its just poorly designed and managed by hacks.

Sorry- Its true. There are a plethora of people (myself included) who love sandbox games. My first MMO (not including neverwinter on AOL) was UO and to this day it was the best and most fulfilling I have ever played . I have been dying for a "3D UO" or even another isometric UO with modern UI and interface, updated graphics, etc.

There is a market (niche it may be-) for a proper "hardcore sandbox mmo"- If MO was even CLOSE to being a working sandbox it would have worked. MO is essentially a PVP arena, very little sand, poor implementation, badly coded, bug filled and managed by snake oil salesmen.

MO COULD have been fixed if Henrik had been replaced as CEO during the first year or so- Its too late now. MO will never be anything but a shoddy mess with a low population- That isnt because of "WOW kiddies" , nor about people not desiring this type of game- Its due to SV as a company and a bad game.

Pretty much this. MO's failures have nothing to do with the players not being able to handle its supposed hardcoreness.

There were plenty of people around at the game's launch who greatly desired a proper sandbox games with complexity, depth, and challenging gameplay. I know, because I was one of them. I once had really high hopes for MO and I gave it more than a year to improve becaue I sincerely hoped that it could become a truly great game.

Sadly, SV did not deliver. They had the attention of an entire niche audience (there was a time when this forum was among the most frequently updated ones on this site, full of drama, forum PvP, rumours and scandals) but they blew their chance due to incompetence, lies, delays and plain screw-ups. Now the ship has long since sailed and 99% of the target audience don't give a crap about it anymore.

MO will probably just limp along for a while, as long as Henrik's dad pays the bills and some rich fools keep throwing their money at SV. Then it will fade into oblivion and hardly no one will care or even notice.

  kalemar

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/08
Posts: 9

8/25/13 9:39:54 PM#26

I started playing Mortal Online just over a month ago. It is so refreshing to see something different to the run of the mill theme park games which are in abundance. I've sunk many hours into this game now and still thoroughly enjoying it. Many of the bugs have been sorted out and any that still exist have not hindered my gaming experience at all. 

Of the 9 friends who joined me, 5 have not only stayed with the game they are now paying for the subscription. I too have started paying a monthly subscription and feel it is totally worth paying for. I haven't enjoyed an MMO this much in years.

I can see that this game would not appeal to everyone but I feel that the game is not getting the visibility so that people who would enjoy it get the chance to. 

I only stumbled across the game through a forum of  another game and if I had read most of the Mortal Online forum posts on MMO sites, they are so negative I probably would not have even tried it. 

I'd suggest to anyone who wants to try something different to give this game a go. It has a permanent free trial which will show new players enough of the game to determine if they want to keep playing.

 

  Slapshot1188

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 4178

 
OP  8/25/13 9:50:24 PM#27
Originally posted by kalemar

I started playing Mortal Online just over a month ago. It is so refreshing to see something different to the run of the mill theme park games which are in abundance. I've sunk many hours into this game now and still thoroughly enjoying it. Many of the bugs have been sorted out and any that still exist have not hindered my gaming experience at all. 

Of the 9 friends who joined me, 5 have not only stayed with the game they are now paying for the subscription. I too have started paying a monthly subscription and feel it is totally worth paying for. I haven't enjoyed an MMO this much in years.

I can see that this game would not appeal to everyone but I feel that the game is not getting the visibility so that people who would enjoy it get the chance to. 

I only stumbled across the game through a forum of  another game and if I had read most of the Mortal Online forum posts on MMO sites, they are so negative I probably would not have even tried it. 

I'd suggest to anyone who wants to try something different to give this game a go. It has a permanent free trial which will show new players enough of the game to determine if they want to keep playing.

 

 

Welcome to MMORPG.COM

Sorry but your story just doesn't ring true to me.  IMHO sounds like a blatant viral marketing first time post.  The games retention rate is not even a fraction of what you claim to have experienced.  Not saying it's impossible for your personal experience  but I honestly think that if you take the "Forum Accts" that Henrick touts and compare it to the actual active player base you end up with something like 0.5% retention.

 

Good luck though.  Hope you find happiness in MO or whatever game you play in the future.

 

 

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  kalemar

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/08
Posts: 9

8/25/13 10:40:33 PM#28

Just because I don't post doesn't mean I've not been around for years. I've got extensive gaming experience in MMO's spanning the last 13 years (longer if you include MUDs) and played well over 50 MMO's (including many BETA tests). 

Everyone has a view. My points should not be discounted just because I don't splatter my thoughts opening regularly on forums. 

Sure, it shows the company not doing well and since they're not advertising the only way new people hear about it is through word of mouth and through forums such as this.

Even with all the negativity in  forums like this, new people are trying Mortal Online and enjoying it. People want something different which is apparent from not only the people I've introduced to the game but the number of people talking on the in-game help chat. That is my point. Too little too late, perhaps but the Developers are still heavily involved in the game and working on many improvements.

 

  Slapshot1188

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 4178

 
OP  8/25/13 10:47:04 PM#29

Game released over 3 years ago and the CEO brags about 191,000 forum users.  The game didn't fail because of lack of interest or not enough people knowing about it.  The game failed because tons of people looking for a sandbox or the spiritual successor to UO tried it, and soon left because it failed to deliver.

They have had to let almost all of their staff go... so to expect much in the way of improvement is unlikely.

 

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  kalemar

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/08
Posts: 9

8/25/13 11:06:45 PM#30

I see this 3 year thing quoted a lot, and yes the game has had a very wobbly start and most games would have closed their doors well before now but it is still going. MO went free trial late November 2013 allowing for people to actually try the game for free. This has helped bring in new players. 

I hope things turn around for the company. We'll all have to see what happens. It would be very interesting to see what would happen to the population if it did go Green light since to this point there has really been no advertising but I won't be holding my breath.

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1460

8/26/13 8:11:15 AM#31

It is amusing seeing defenders of MO twist the "it doesn't appeal to everyone" argument into a positive thing, as the game is too hardcore. No, it doesn't appeal to everyone because game is crap, not because it is too hardcore. The fact that someone still manages to enjoy it despite all glaring flaws does not make an argument, just shows that people are desperate for anything that resembles a sandbox. There are plenty of hardcore sandbox fans out there, who now ditched MO and follow more promising titles coming up. 

Thankfully, there are lots of promising hybrids coming up, which do not boast being themeparks or sandboxes, but instead take best from both worlds. Games such as Archeage and Black Desert, which realized that good design is not real life imitation. 

  argirop

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/09
Posts: 326

8/26/13 11:09:01 AM#32
Originally posted by kalemar

I see this 3 year thing quoted a lot, and yes the game has had a very wobbly start and most games would have closed their doors well before now but it is still going. MO went free trial late November 2013 allowing for people to actually try the game for free. This has helped bring in new players. 

I hope things turn around for the company. We'll all have to see what happens. It would be very interesting to see what would happen to the population if it did go Green light since to this point there has really been no advertising but I won't be holding my breath.

How can you talk about things that you wouldnt know, since you started playing 1 month ago? Oh you 

  kalemar

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/08
Posts: 9

8/26/13 10:33:59 PM#33

Seriously guys, I'm not a viral Marketer... Look how long I've been a member here for. Since 2008!!... I just feel passionate about the game. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I didn't realise this was an MO hate forum. There are two sides to the story but anyone that mentions they like the game gets slapped down. 

This is very poor form guys. 

I'm simply saying I've enjoyed playing this game and there are a lot of new players trying it. 

I don't understand why I'm being personally attacked here. There were 3 pages bagging MO before I reluctantly tried to show another side. 

Very dissapointed to see how little value you are adding to the discussion. 

  kalemar

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/08
Posts: 9

8/26/13 10:36:20 PM#34
Originally posted by argirop
Originally posted by kalemar

I see this 3 year thing quoted a lot, and yes the game has had a very wobbly start and most games would have closed their doors well before now but it is still going. MO went free trial late November 2013 allowing for people to actually try the game for free. This has helped bring in new players. 

I hope things turn around for the company. We'll all have to see what happens. It would be very interesting to see what would happen to the population if it did go Green light since to this point there has really been no advertising but I won't be holding my breath.

How can you talk about things that you wouldnt know, since you started playing 1 month ago? Oh you 

Simple. I did my research. Feel free to check my facts. 

EDIT: adding.... and if you haven't played it in the last month, then you should try it again before you bag me as there have been a number of patches which have addressed issues which has made the game quite playable now.

  kalemar

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/08
Posts: 9

8/26/13 11:20:47 PM#35
Originally posted by Toferio

It is amusing seeing defenders of MO twist the "it doesn't appeal to everyone" argument into a positive thing, as the game is too hardcore. No, it doesn't appeal to everyone because game is crap, not because it is too hardcore. The fact that someone still manages to enjoy it despite all glaring flaws does not make an argument, just shows that people are desperate for anything that resembles a sandbox. There are plenty of hardcore sandbox fans out there, who now ditched MO and follow more promising titles coming up. 

Thankfully, there are lots of promising hybrids coming up, which do not boast being themeparks or sandboxes, but instead take best from both worlds. Games such as Archeage and Black Desert, which realized that good design is not real life imitation. 

Unfortunately even if this game was completely bug free, this style of game will only ever target the minority of MMOers, based on the number of themepark style, time=win games the majority want an easy game. What I've seen from games like Shadowbane, Wizardry and even Darkfall, the numbers are much lower than the Everquest / WoW style games.

Saying you think a game is "crap" doesn't really explain anything. All it says is that the game didn't appeal to you. 

I agree, I am desperate for a true sandbox experience and Mortal Online is the closest thing to that at the moment. I accept that the game has glitches but I haven't noticed many and  my gaming sessions have not been compromised.  

I too am looking forward to what is around the corner but I will be using Mortal Onlines design as my measuring stick. 

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1460

8/27/13 5:04:40 AM#36
Originally posted by kalemar

Unfortunately even if this game was completely bug free, this style of game will only ever target the minority of MMOers, based on the number of themepark style, time=win games the majority want an easy game. What I've seen from games like Shadowbane, Wizardry and even Darkfall, the numbers are much lower than the Everquest / WoW style games.

Once again, you are confusing cause and effect. The reason the sandbox games are as unpopular as they are now (note: I am not saying they can beat WoW, but they surely can do better than the current numbers) is not because they are so niche. It is because the current options to choose from crap. Objectively speaking, the game design, the features, the quality of the games is crap. They are unnecessary complex, bugged and user unfriendly. Want a good example of a sandbox? Minecraft. It is as simple at its core as a game can be, yet possibilities are unlimited. There is PvP, PvE, crafting, whatever you wish for with some mods. Sure, it doesn't look nearly as pretty, nor is it overly realistic, but I dare you to name me ONE thing you cant do in MO but not in Minecraft (with mods). Sandbox can go mainstream, it just needs to be well designed.

If we are to have this discussion, can we please agree that us not playing the games in questions has nothing to do (at least for me, and I believe many others on this forum) with them being too niche or hardcore, I don't play them because they are poorly designed, bugged piles of crap. Simple as that. 

Of course the number of players in such games will be lower than WoW, but at this point the audience matured enough to devour a well made sandbox. The sandbox fans numbers will always remain in minority (as does the "pro gamers" numbers), but there are lot more of those out there, waiting for a decent title. Sadly, there is no such available. The fact that you, and a handful of others, decided to endure the bugs and downsides of MO just to have something that remotely represents your ideal game does not mean that it is objectively a good game. 

I am not saying that you can't enjoy MO. You can enjoy whatever you want, but in the end it is still a crappy game. Sure, me calling it for crap is not exactly helpful. But I dont really want to go on in details about all crappy mechanics the game features, such as wasteful choice of useful combinations in their "sandbox" systems, poor PvP design or bad tech. If the game was "bug free", fix its broken and overly complex features, and adjust PvP systems, people would love it. It wouldn't reach status of WoW, of course (nothing can atm), but you bet it would do a lot better than it does currently.  In the beginning, people were excited about MO and its "hardcore" features. People left not because it was too niche, but because the game and the company behind it were crap. And don't even get me started on SV, how they lied, tricked and cheated their userbase. Or the corrupted GMs. Even if they polish the game up, I would not return, I think, because I despise everything SV stands for. 

My point? IT BEING NICHE IS NOT A FREAKING EXCUSE. If they delivered a bug free version of heir original promises, people would love it. 

  argirop

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/09
Posts: 326

8/27/13 6:09:19 AM#37
Originally posted by kalemar

Simple. I did my research. Feel free to check my facts. 

EDIT: adding.... and if you haven't played it in the last month, then you should try it again before you bag me as there have been a number of patches which have addressed issues which has made the game quite playable now.

I see. Allow me to tell you though that if you havent being around MO for long time as many of us did its very difficult for you to imagine all the uncomfortable occasions that SV lead its supporters into.

No i havent tried the game for months. And thanks but no thanks for the suggestion. I ve heard the exact same thing (after recent patches MO is playable) so many times that i cant even remember. Will not gamble again with an unstable installation and spend many many hours to install MO again. After 3 and a bit more years in and out of the game i have come to the concusion that the game is a mess and the company behind it appart from the fact that they have terrible ways, no planning at all, they didnt stick to their vision, they totaly lack the manpower, the skills and the education to develope a somehow playable and decent game they are just "hungry for money" amateurs that dont hesitate at all to lie, deceive and manipulate their playerbase just to grab a few coins and keep a small playerbase under "custody"

Remember my first month i was excited as you say you are right now. But since then i gaved the game so many chances and unfortunatelly things didnt got any better. Some random improvements here and there but the major problems were still there and i m afraid that still are.Like it or not though this game has as a side effect to burn its playerbase. And remember my words cause once you go into more depth regarding the mechanics and the way that people abusing them, you will realize that SV is the biggest griefer among the ones that exploiting their own game and they simply dont give a damn. Once you realize that several days even months of playtime may vanish into thin air not cause of other players (which is acceptable in an open world full loot pvp game) but due to bugs and unprofessionalism, you will start to see things differently. Once you see your ingame friends and all the people -friends and foes- that you enjoyed playing with leaving the game cause of the exact same reasons that are SV fails not to repeat, then pls come back and we may discuss about how playable MO is.  

No personnal "baging" is intended but between you and me, admiting that you play 1 month the game and having referrences about the disasterous release and the (god should make it) f2p model that happened several months ago, doesnt make sense to me. You wouldnt possibly know how the population was before the f2p model as you dont have the slightest idea about the population charging in game to check every major patch that was supposed to revolutionarize MO and the servers being empty after a few days, cause SV was failing each single bloody time to deliver and the game was unplayable for several months after.

Only a few percentage of the people that using MO forums are "wow audience". The rest of us we re praying for a decent sandbox that we can get our hands on. And my friend MO is not even close to decent. Thats not debatable and in any case its not a matter of personnal taste. Its a fact proved by the 10ths of thousand people that came, saw and left due to the poor state of the game and SV's bad ways of practise. There are ofc many many more valid arguments that have being said for many many times and theres no need to repeat them each time that a MO fan or a SV's employe comes in these forums and sais the usual crap: MO is back on track, population is booming, latest patches made MO an AAA title, half assed features will be focused to make them working and functional, new revolutionary AI is on the way, nodeline issues are not an issue anymore, prediction is better than ever, exploiters are geting punished, MO's source code is a masterpiece, servers are stable, large scale pvp is smooth, no game crashes, developement is fast, stable and patches are frequent.

Have a nice day.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/27/13 6:26:41 AM#38
Originally posted by Toferio

It is amusing seeing defenders of MO twist the "it doesn't appeal to everyone" argument into a positive thing, as the game is too hardcore.

That has always been the first rule of How To Market a Poorly Designed Game.

And the sniff "at least we're better than those guys" is all that drives and holds together certain communities.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Ramanadjinn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1312

8/27/13 6:12:57 PM#39
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Toferio

It is amusing seeing defenders of MO twist the "it doesn't appeal to everyone" argument into a positive thing, as the game is too hardcore.

That has always been the first rule of How To Market a Poorly Designed Game.

And the sniff "at least we're better than those guys" is all that drives and holds together certain communities.

 

I've been absent from the thread a while, before the tangent Toferio and others have gone off on propagates any futher i'd like to point out:

 

The argument that the game is "hardcore" and that it doesn't appeal to everyone is somehow a good thing is an argument invented within this thread by those who do not like the game.  

Us proponents of the game did not make this argument.  Someone within the thread that was not us "defenders of MO"  invented the argument and then argued against it in an effort to look correct.  

It is easy to be correct if one gets to define the argument of the opposing side for them rather than speak to what was actually said.  It can "win" arguments on the internet at times, but it is poor form and does more harm to real discussion than good.

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1460

8/28/13 1:20:20 AM#40
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Toferio

It is amusing seeing defenders of MO twist the "it doesn't appeal to everyone" argument into a positive thing, as the game is too hardcore.

That has always been the first rule of How To Market a Poorly Designed Game.

And the sniff "at least we're better than those guys" is all that drives and holds together certain communities.

 

I've been absent from the thread a while, before the tangent Toferio and others have gone off on propagates any futher i'd like to point out:

 

The argument that the game is "hardcore" and that it doesn't appeal to everyone is somehow a good thing is an argument invented within this thread by those who do not like the game.  

I was referring to the general attitude I see so often from the defenders of the game, who claim MO doesn't have more players because it is so unique, niche and hardcore for your average MMO player. The kind of attitude I saw in following posts of yours:

Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

These types of games aren't for everyone.  

Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

It is also a difficult game with very few accessibility features and because of this and several other things many people just do not like it and that is fine.  

As I said, my statement was not directed to you exclusively, but the general attitude of many MO players as a whole I've seen on these boards. MO is not a "difficult" game, it is unnecessarily complex and user unfriendly, poor design of which shuns many players away. Somehow, you make it sound like it is good and intended design. It isn't, they just can't do any better. But hey, that's just me, I may have misunderstood you. I firmly believe that a game like MO could get a lot more players if it didn't fail at its basic, which is why I disagree with any hint of "it is too niche/hard" argument. 

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