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General Discussion  » A small problem with action combat . It kills raiding.

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57 posts found
  KingsField

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/31/13
Posts: 37

8/04/13 10:02:30 AM#41
Originally posted by Graey

you know i just thought of something.

people are saying that GW2 is a zergfest meaning everyone just shoots and that's it.

Now let's take WOW, RIFT for example...the tank holds aggro and you just shoot....is that not the same thing?

Although I disliked the GW2 model simply because the characters just seemed to shallow. So I can see what they are saying just thought I'd point out the similarities of both stances.

 

It's the same thing if you only play DPS classes since in both cases you're doing damage to MOBs. It's not the same at all if you like to play tanks and healers since those roles always fall to the wayside in trinity-free RPGs.
  itchmon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/21/07
Posts: 1614

8/04/13 10:03:35 AM#42

I would guess that "it kills raiding" is a feature not a problem for some folks.

 

that being said it's EQ, i'm sure there will be some sort of Large dragon encounters for people to join together and fight.  there was a wallpaper featuring Naggy if i'm not mistaken?

 

people need to not conflate "there hasnt been ______ yet"  with "______ cannot be done"

RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

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My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

Henry Rollins

  thinlizzy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 69

8/04/13 11:06:29 AM#43

I hate this push to blandness

There was a problem with the "holy trinity" but throwing it out was not the solution

Why do tanks have to hold agro with a magic taunt button, it was never a good solution.

But just because EQ WoW and many other games TAUNT was silly does not make the principle the wrong one.

Make tanks masters of CC with knock downs snares and blocking...then they get to do what tank players like to do...PROTECT PEOPLE

As for healing...many people like healing, i know I do (not raid healing thats dull as all ^%$%#)

 

They should NOT look to remove the trinity by removing specialists

They should remove it by INCREASING the number of ways to TANK HEAL DEBUFF BUFFF CC and generally hinder.

IF ( and lets face it we dont know for sure yet) this comes out anything like GW2 then EQN will be a massive let down.

 

P.S. action combat does NOT kill raiding or remove the trinity...its bland everyone is all classes %$%#@# that does this

TERA has action combat and a very strong trinity

  Dejoblue

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/11
Posts: 295

I'll give them heroics...and when everyone is super...no one will be.

8/04/13 11:52:31 AM#44

See here is the problem. In WoW I do not use taunt, it is on a long cooldown timer, i only use it to take aggro from another tank, otherwise I am using my abilities. Those abilities are also helping to keep myself alive. I get to do damage, hell the first boss encounter of MoP tanks were at the top of the DPS meters for MONTHS because of cleave effects.

 

The REAL problem is that with casual players you simply cannot build a reliable roster. i tried TWICE in MoP to build a NORMAL mode raid team, after 4 years of being a successful 25 man HEROIC raid leader and guild master, and MoP, it's ultra casualness left nothing for anyone to want outside of their queued up dungeons and raids.

People want to log in when they want and want to do what they want, they do NOT want to be "social" in an organized fashion with a set time of when they do ANYTHING hell we are going to have problems getting players to log on at the same time to do 6 man dungeons let alone 24 or more man raids.

 

THAT is the real issue.

 

regardless, unless there is some kind of lockout, I WILL be the leader of that guild that is in Tier 3 gear raiding tier 4 content. If we can only have 6 players in a group ever then i will STILL be the guy with the guild that does tier 4 content in tier 3 gear. Only if there are instances or some kind of gating where I literally cant zone in or access the next tier unless I am geared up I WILL be doing this.

If they do not allow this then i seriously question what freedoms we will have in the sandbox.

I WILL do all of the content, ALL of it, procedurally generated dungeons aside, all of the "handcrafted" official content I will do when it is relevant, when it is difficult and ASAP, and I will strive to do it first on my server if not the world. That is who I am, that is who I am recruiting for my guild, and we are legion!

  ThomasN7

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6672

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

8/04/13 11:54:35 AM#45
Originally posted by Piiritus
I will be skill spam zerging like GW2 I'm afraid.

This. This type of combat will get old quickly.

  Effin_Rabbit

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/05
Posts: 726

This Rabbit stinks!

8/04/13 12:07:08 PM#46
Im glad, the trinity is a boring and archaic mechanic that greatly limits players options to build their own unique character and a lazy design method that makes every encounter the same and embraces the lack of any meaningful AI system which makes most combat (in mmos) boring as all hell but a great sleeping aid. This is good news in my opinion.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2547

World > Quest Progression

8/04/13 12:15:16 PM#47
Traditional raiding? Probably not as the AI in EQN sounds more advanced. That's the reason why it could actually advance raiding, which is simply encounters that need a lot of people.

There's no way of knowing how the interdependency will be handled, only speculation.
  AIMonster

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2025

8/04/13 12:15:19 PM#48

I think a few people on this thread aren't understanding a number of things here.

First, there really is no "raiding" in GW2.  It's a bad example.  Yes, the large scale bosses amount to nothing more than zerging and some are actually harder with more people due to scaling.  Due to scaling my Ranger is able to solo every champion in the game (minus the Krait Witch in that level 60ish zone) I actually went out and did it including harder ones like the Zhaitan Eyes.  I also was able to solo several legendary level MOBs, including portions of and even at one point an entire explorable mode dungeon.

On the other hand some encounters can become quite ridiculous with a lot of people, especially when they involve something other than zerging.  Grenth in Orr for example is nearly impossible when you have a mass of people in one area because people don't understand the mechanics and the scaling makes it difficult to complete.  No real penalty for death also promotes zerging heavily because you can just go back to the nearest waypoint and rush to the boss again without worry.

Finally, GW2 was never designed with endgame raiding in mind.  They never made an effort to do it.  The biggest attempt (though admittedly I haven't played in months so that could change) is adding the guild missions which again due to scaling wind up being easier with less people anyway.

Also now this is just an opinion, but I feel GW2's group content wasn't really designed well.  Explorable modes feel incomplete with spikes in difficulty and other bosses that are simply pushovers and the same goes for Fractals which at higher levels (40+) boil down to kiting and how many reflect walls you can bring.  There are only a few multitiered well scripted fights in GW2 compared to the many you would see in a PVE raiding game like WoW, EQ2, or Rift.  I feel like GW2 never had a chance to really show off what could be done with action combat due to this, though Fractals were certainly a step in the right direction.

Action combat hasn't been done in a raiding environment successfully yet and that's simply because nobody has tried yet.  I know Black Desert plans on it as does Wildstar and I'm sure EQNext will have raiding too (how can it not?) so I think we should wait and see before we make assumptions that action combat can't work in a raid environment.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  Zapzap

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/31/13
Posts: 213

8/04/13 12:29:16 PM#49
Originally posted by Graey

you know i just thought of something.

people are saying that GW2 is a zergfest meaning everyone just shoots and that's it.

Now let's take WOW, RIFT for example...the tank holds aggro and you just shoot....is that not the same thing?

 

It is completely the opposite of what you described in a progression raiding enviorment.  To avoid dying and kill a proper raid boss there is so much that goes into it is very hard to list it all.  Raiding is essentially a dance or a ballet where everyone in the raid needs to be coordinated or you will die.  The 1st thing you need is a proper set up of classes and then have a strategy for your fight.  The tanks need proper positioning as does the raid, there often needs to be timed tank swaps, interrupts by numerous players, debuffs, healers need to heal not only the tank but the raid as well, the raiders needs to be able to move well to avoid damage and killing other players, you need to make sure all buffs are up, that healers are aware of when there will be spike damage, healers need to be able to cure properly and be alert, often dps must time many of their abilities with temporary buffs form other players and finally that players be situationally aware and be able to react and improvise when something unexpected happens or something goes wrong.

In modern raiding there is a huge emphasis on movement , reaction, situational awareness, spacing and often times formations properly maximizing space.

Progression Raiding is not spamming buttons like what we see in non raiding games zergfest zone event type mobs  but  rather being prepared, aware, good efficient movement, team coordination and being able to think on ones feat. It is everyone pushing themselves to be better players to kill mobs that others cannot.  Without a good experienced and aware raid leader it is very hard for any guild to progress. 

Good raiders need so many important attributes from reaction time , raid experience, spatial awareness, and class understanding.  But there are 2 important qualities that standout to me that every raider needs.  Patience and a good attitude.  Raiding is not easy.  It takes a great deal of work, preparation and dying over and over to eventually kill one boss.  Experienced progression raiders understand this and don't get upset, don't finger point or give up during tough times.  And there will be tough times.  But when you kill a difficult boss there is nothing like it in MMOs.  All that hard work by everyone means so much in the amazing  feeling of group guild achievement.  Everyone working together for that guild goal is what makes competitive raiding such a beautiful dance.  When everything is clicking in a well run raid with a good raid leader and good raiders  it is truly a thing of beauty that nothing else can compare to in MMOs.

  seacow1g

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/13
Posts: 260

8/04/13 1:22:45 PM#50

Here's how I see it:

Ok so they say you don't need tanking or healing to win encounters....Then are there encounters based on the enemy AI that it's more EFFICIENT to use defensive abilities in the group to beat the enemy? Cause if it's not required and it's never more efficient, then it's not gonna happen. Let's look at DPS on the other hand....Do you NEED dps to win the fight? Well yes, you NEED to dps the boss or it'll never die. Is there ever a disadvantage to using more dps if you don't need tanking or healing? Nope...so you'll want it to be all dps. They can say as much as they want that AI will make all the difference and fix all the problems but I don't see how it can. If DPS is the only thing NEEDED to win a fight and nothing else is needed or more efficient then all anyone is going to want in groups is dps.

 

I hate to use GW2 as an example but there aren't too many games out of this type yet so I have to. GW2 has defensive skills and heals in it, but they are not needed nor do they make any of the encounters go by smoother......so why would a group want someone to use them then? The most efficient way to beat content in that game is to pick all max dps build characters who are self-aware, move appropriately and can stay alive.....If that's the role that everyone is playing then why even have classes? They just look different but doesn't play any differently. The game may have defensive skills and heals but if they don't help you beat anything any easier then why use them? They're just there for the sake of saying they're there. 

 

I've heard alot of complaints about how tanking is just about grabbing the attention of the boss and having it beat on you while you get healed.....I can tell you from over a decade of tanking experience that that's not what tanking is like at all. The tank doesn't just draw the aggro, the tanks controls the POSITION of the enemy (which in any raid worth its salt WILL matter). In a good encounter the position the  boss needs to be in at any moment in time will change and the tank will not only need to get the boss there but also get the boss there in the right WAY. In addition, in some games the tanks have a responsibility to exchange aggro at times to survive, use defensive abilities at the right times to survive, interrupt the boss casting spells, control the pos itioning of adds, do correct rotations or use abilities at the right time to hold aggro etc etc. On top of that, there's the planning that goes into min-maxxing your survival stats vs min-maxxin the speed at which you kill stuff. This is a playstyle that is different from the dps and there's people who like to do it. THAT is true variety. I know that for healers/support and controllers the playstyle is once again very different than dps and tanking and no game that doesn't require these different kinds of roles will have players playing them.

 

Lets look at a different genre with these kinds of roles but the AI of your opponent is not just some hyped up AI that we hope is as smart as real people but instead it's actually real people you're fighting:   MOBAs

In these games players are smart and know not to focus the tank and go after the squishies.....yet tanks are still used and are in fact very important in these games. How is that possible? It's because the tanks still CONTROL the movement of the enemies in there games. They have stuns, silences, knockups, slows, walls, debuffs (and sometimes even straight up taunts) etc. That all make it IMPOSSIBLE to touch the squishies when the tank is playing correctly. It's almost exactly like what the aggro mechanics in older MMO's simulate without having actual aggro. Instead the skill of the tank and the rest of the team forces the enemy to attack the tank anyway, cause that's the only target they can get to. Now what would happen if every single character in a MOBA could do badass DPS and had tons of ways to survive and Lifesteal and stuff and tanks did not have such dominant control over player positioning? Then the meta would change to the whole lineup consisting of "semi-carries" or "bruisers" or whatever you want to call them and the playstyle of everyone would more or less be the same. As much as we want to play how we want to play players also want to win (oftentimes even more than just wanting to play), so making something unnecessary vs something that IS necessary will always see the necessary role prevail.

 

That's what making tanks and healers unnecessary does to a game because then the only thing that IS necessary is DPS and if that's all that's that you need then that's what people will do to "win". Let's get serious here, this kind of design does not encourage variety in playstyle and finding strategies to mix and match these styles to win....It doesn't encourage the organized "dance" that is raiding. 

 

And if you don't like raiding then that's fine with me but then why are you playing MMO's? As I see it, the only benefit to having a gaming world inhabited by hundreds or thousands of real players is to have to organize and play with and against large groups of them. If you just want to play by yourself or at most with 4-5 people all the time then why not play a single-player rpg or make some The Elder Scrolls-like RPG with 4-5 people multiplayers options? That seems like it would be much more fun to me because those kinds of games won't have to be constrained by the limitations of making a world with hundred or thousands of players in it. If you take out the need to have organized play with and/or against lots of players then you take out the need to have lots of players to begin with. If your AI is so smart that it's life-like then why not just limit the players in the game to the numbers the players WANT to play with and let the rest be super smart NPC's that don't grief or cheat or ruin immersion or the game. As I see it if you take out raiding you take out the need for it to be an MMO.

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2702

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

8/04/13 3:48:23 PM#51

Raid mechanics need a major sandbox overhaul. Raids, up to this point, are for players that are use to tackling them themepark style. I see people constantly complaining about GW2 and the frantic way epic encounters are played out. Newsflash guys, epic encounters are nothing new to sandbox mmorpgs. UO, SWG and AC had epic encounters where everyone within local chat radius responded to in order to take down a threat. So this zerg-like behavior and the lack of a trinity in GW2 is nothing new to those that have played a few sandbox mmorpgs.

 

Unfortunately nowadays most players are hooked on the way themepark mmorpgs handle raids and dungeon delves.This is why some players complain so much about GW2's lack of traditional themepark mechanics when faced with traditional themepark playing styles. In other words, the natural progression from dungeon delving in the hierarchy of themepark gameplay is raiding. But since GW2 scrapped the basic mechanics of handling that progression, namely the trinity, they've hit a bit of a speed bump when it comes to how dungeons and ultimately raiding is handled in what's essentially a themepark mmorpg. Thus those types of players get upset.

 

EQN on the other hand is being touted as a sandbox mmorpg. So not having structured raids is naturally fine for those that have played sandbox mmorpgs. As long as there are epic encounters to experience. Furthermore, action combat is a feature that may have gotten it's start in themepark mmorpgs, but it doesn't make it an exclusive feature to them. Correct me if I'm wrong but EQN will be one of the few, if not the first, sandbox mmorpg to have action combat included. So to recap:

 

  • Action combat is not exclusive to themepark mmos
  • Raids are a byproduct of themepark mmos
  • The holy trinity is a byproduct of themepark mmos
  • GW2 is a themepark mmo
 
  • EQN is attempting action combat in a sandbox mmo
  • Raids in sandbox mmos do not mean the same thing as raids in thempark mmos
  • The holy trinity doesn't exist in a sandbox mmo
  • EQN is a sandbox mmo

 


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4847

8/04/13 4:04:21 PM#52

I have yet to see a cohesive argument as to WHY action combat kills raiding. So far all I hear is 'waaah!!! I miss raiding, and I hate action combat!'. It's nothing more than whining.

Action combat, honestly, has nothing to do with raiding, unless (to you) raiding means everyone sitting in the same spot spamming their macros while the tank sits & takes hits. Yawn.

Action combat absolutely can be done in a raiding style format. However, the tradeoff is players have to take responsibility for their own actions. This is why so many people complain about GW2's combat. The combat in GW2 is as good or bad as you make it. It largely depends on you, and how willing you are to think about what you're doing, the enemy you're facing, and adapt accordingly. There is no 'i win' macro that works for every encounter. You have to adapt.

However, nowhere in there does it state that this can't be done with a lot of players. Yes, GW2's combat can get somewhat zergy, but ALL combat gets somewhat zergy when you get a large group of people in one area. Imagine watching those raid fights you enjoyed from the bosses perspective, and you might see what I mean. This doesn't mean that there isn't a high degree of organization, skill, and tactics involved, though.

The funny thing is, when you look at some of the more difficult raids of the past. Most of them were already trying to incorporate aspects that are now staples in action combat. Things like AoEs that you have to dodge out of / avoid. It's just the natural progression of combat, if you want to make things more interesting.

  Murugan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1572

8/04/13 4:07:51 PM#53
Originally posted by Ramonski7

Raid mechanics need a major sandbox overhaul. Raids, up to this point, are for players that are use to tackling them themepark style. I see people constantly complaining about GW2 and the frantic way epic encounters are played out. Newsflash guys, epic encounters are nothing new to sandbox mmorpgs. UO, SWG and AC had epic encounters where everyone within local chat radius responded to in order to take down a threat. So this zerg-like behavior and the lack of a trinity in GW2 is nothing new to those that have played a few sandbox mmorpgs.

 

Unfortunately nowadays most players are hooked on the way themepark mmorpgs handle raids and dungeon delves.This is why some players complain so much about GW2's lack of traditional themepark mechanics when faced with traditional themepark playing styles. In other words, the natural progression from dungeon delving in the hierarchy of themepark gameplay is raiding. But since GW2 scrapped the basic mechanics of handling that progression, namely the trinity, they've hit a bit of a speed bump when it comes to how dungeons and ultimately raiding is handled in what's essentially a themepark mmorpg. Thus those types of players get upset.

 

EQN on the other hand is being touted as a sandbox mmorpg. So not having structured raids is naturally fine for those that have played sandbox mmorpgs. As long as there are epic encounters to experience. Furthermore, action combat is a feature that may have gotten it's start in themepark mmorpgs, but it doesn't make it an exclusive feature to them. Correct me if I'm wrong but EQN will be one of the few, if not the first, sandbox mmorpg to have action combat included. So to recap:

 

  • Action combat is not exclusive to themepark mmos
  • Raids are a byproduct of themepark mmos
  • The holy trinity is a byproduct of themepark mmos
  • GW2 is a themepark mmo
 
  • EQN is attempting action combat in a sandbox mmo
  • Raids in sandbox mmos do not mean the same thing as raids in thempark mmos
  • The holy trinity doesn't exist in a sandbox mmo
  • EQN is a sandbox mmo

 

Newsflash SWG wasn't praised for its epic PvE "content".

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  wizardanim

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/07
Posts: 279

8/04/13 4:09:11 PM#54
The system hasnt been revealed. You cant claim it kills raiding if you dont know what is is. Nothing else needs to be said. You have had a small look and are filling in peices yourself, just as everyone did before aug 2nd. More to come soon.
  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2702

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

8/04/13 4:36:11 PM#55
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by Ramonski7

Raid mechanics need a major sandbox overhaul. Raids, up to this point, are for players that are use to tackling them themepark style. I see people constantly complaining about GW2 and the frantic way epic encounters are played out. Newsflash guys, epic encounters are nothing new to sandbox mmorpgs. UO, SWG and AC had epic encounters where everyone within local chat radius responded to in order to take down a threat. So this zerg-like behavior and the lack of a trinity in GW2 is nothing new to those that have played a few sandbox mmorpgs.

 

Unfortunately nowadays most players are hooked on the way themepark mmorpgs handle raids and dungeon delves.This is why some players complain so much about GW2's lack of traditional themepark mechanics when faced with traditional themepark playing styles. In other words, the natural progression from dungeon delving in the hierarchy of themepark gameplay is raiding. But since GW2 scrapped the basic mechanics of handling that progression, namely the trinity, they've hit a bit of a speed bump when it comes to how dungeons and ultimately raiding is handled in what's essentially a themepark mmorpg. Thus those types of players get upset.

 

EQN on the other hand is being touted as a sandbox mmorpg. So not having structured raids is naturally fine for those that have played sandbox mmorpgs. As long as there are epic encounters to experience. Furthermore, action combat is a feature that may have gotten it's start in themepark mmorpgs, but it doesn't make it an exclusive feature to them. Correct me if I'm wrong but EQN will be one of the few, if not the first, sandbox mmorpg to have action combat included. So to recap:

 

  • Action combat is not exclusive to themepark mmos
  • Raids are a byproduct of themepark mmos
  • The holy trinity is a byproduct of themepark mmos
  • GW2 is a themepark mmo
 
  • EQN is attempting action combat in a sandbox mmo
  • Raids in sandbox mmos do not mean the same thing as raids in thempark mmos
  • The holy trinity doesn't exist in a sandbox mmo
  • EQN is a sandbox mmo

 

Newsflash SWG wasn't praised for its epic PvE "content".

Really? So what do you think PvE stands for? I'll give you a hint...it includes more than mobs. But just in case you misinterpreted my "epic encounters" statement I'm talking encounters that took multiple players to take down like Krayt Dragons, Nightsisters and high level lairs.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  DSWBeef

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/09
Posts: 792

8/04/13 4:40:08 PM#56
They have not said or showed enough to make us think raiding is dead. This is all pointless speculation.

Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim Dawn
Waiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  NavinJohnson

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 61

8/04/13 4:52:29 PM#57
Originally posted by Mightyking
Originally posted by Incomparable

Did they say that when healers die it doesnt matter becuase heals are not needed? Because a class has a limited active abilities it seems... which therefore suggests that a choice in class role has to be made... meaning the trinity exists if there is healing, if there is tanking, if there are other roles.

The trinity does not exist if the content is so easy you dont need healers, or even tanks... just dps to finish the job quicker. 

They never said that. 

Not sure you are right about your assumption.

Also action combat has nothing to do with trinity. They are two exclusive things OP.

Please do not spread misinformation, beucase that is what it seems you are doing. Since you are not asking, but stating something that sounds wrong by stating not only does the trinity system not exist, but it does not exist becuase the combat is action oriented...

There's a video currently on curse.com where they basically confirm they got rid of the trinity, although they didn't use the word trinity. But "our AI is too smart to keep attacking the same guy during the whole fight" means tanking won't be possible. And healers aren't needed is an exact phrase they used.

Basically they want the game so noone in a guild has to depend on anyone in particular. If the top healer in a guild decides not to log on the raid can still continue. That's their design choice.

 

edit: here's the curse video, part 2 in the sidebar, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOKhfxwLokg

Pure conjecture.

I think some people are confusing "this is how we're accutomed to fighting bosses/raids" with "multi classing and action combat means raiding is not possible in EQN."

 A core component of this game is the AI. Mobs will be smart, mobs will have specific strengths and weaknesses, mobs will have personality traits. You might very well need plate mail for one boss, and nukes for another, just because that is how the mob is wired.

Please do not confuse the ability to analyze parsers and memorize encounter scripts with strategic or tactical game play.

Also, and as someone who usually plays a support class anyway (i.e., a class that either was or was not the flavor of the month), I find this new direction refreshing, and would encourage everyone to compile facts obtained from actual game play before asserting conjecture as truth :)

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