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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » A small problem with action combat . It kills raiding.

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57 posts found
  QSatu

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/14/06
Posts: 1768

8/04/13 7:48:05 AM#21
For me raiding can stay dead. No more being forced to do content with 20+ players to progress. Win win for me. raiding would be ok if it didn't have the best rewards but you ll know raiders want the best rewards b/c they put "more work than other players" into a game.
  -Ellessar-

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/06
Posts: 98

8/04/13 7:54:54 AM#22

I'm all for innovation and breaking the theme-park  mold that has dominated the genre for the last ten years.  I want a good sandbox as much as the next guy, but I share in the concerns expressed by many here.  SOE seems to be making questionable choices when it comes to combat and the lack of raiding. 

I like to raid.  I suspect a whole lot of other MMO fans also like to raid.  Why are we removing this?  I've only ever really heard two valid complaints about raiding:  

1. It's repetitive.  That's true it can be, but that can also be true about almost all aspects of these games.  So repetitiveness by itself is not a reason to remove it.  

2. Gear Grind.  I understand some people don't like gear grinds.  That's fine and EQN seems to be moving away from this, which I am fine with.  So no real problem here then.    

So why are we removing it ENQ again?

I have a feeling the real reason they are moving away from traditional raiding is because they are moving away from the Trinity. When you don't have the Trinity it's very hard to do complex PvE encounters.  How do you do a boss fight with a MOB who can one shot clothies if there are no tanks and there is no way to effectively manage aggro?  The answer is you can't.  Removing the Trinity tends to turn these games into DPS zerg fests, and you can't have raids like that.  

Look at GW2.  Dungeons are a joke because they removed the Trinity.  Those large scale PvE "public raids" are nothing more than zerg fests.  Everyone just pew pews until the thing dies.  There is no thought of strategy or tactics.  

Why can't we have a game that integrates that sandbox elements of games like SWG, the public quests and non linear advancement of GW2, and the enjoyable theme-park aspects of games like WoW?  Is that not possible?  Why is it one or the other?

Yeah I want to have a house in the game, and maybe even a player city to put it in.  I also want to be able to raid with my buddies once or twice a week.

 

-Ellessar- 

 

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4770

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

8/04/13 8:01:36 AM#23

speculating, WoW pretty much has a monopoly on raiding. If you want to raid but not in WoW, then you don't really have any great options at this point. The few that exist are pre-wow titles.

 

so perhaps they're moving away from raiding because they can't compete ?

 

realistically, looking at WoW, what is there ? there's fluff - many games have that. there's simple crafting - many games have that. there's instanced pvp - not too bad but nothing unusual, many games have that, then there's raiding. titles like EQ2 have it, but nothing else post-wow reached any high popularity in this area. SWTOR tried and failed, RIFT/GW2 tried to twist it a bit and worked ok because it was slightly different...but that's where raiding ends.

 

I believe devs simply gave up trying to kill wow by detrone it from its raiding ... dominion.

  ste2000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4735

8/04/13 8:04:25 AM#24
Originally posted by Nadia

if nothing else, EQ was known for bringing raiding to mmos

Georgeson said there are large scale encounters but its unclear on how large

It will work like in GW2, scalable Epic encounters where 30+ people try as hard as they can to smash button as fast as possible to kill the thing...................not my idea of Raiding.

Combat in EQNext seems pretty wrong, aimed at 12 y/o lightspeed typing wizards...................

  arieste

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3310

8/04/13 8:09:54 AM#25

It does sound a lot like the type of clusterfuck zergfest that GW2's "raids" are.  Where you may have 40 people killing something, but they're not killing it together, they're basically each soloing alongside 39 others. 

 

On the flipside, TSW - which has 1. Action Combat, 2. 7-ish ability slots 3.  same type of cross-class system as EQN - it has some of the most diffculty and co-operative 5-man group content i've seen in any game.  So it is possible to create complex content with action cmobat and limited abilities, but TSW does use a trinity though.  

 

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Bloodaxes

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 2647

8/04/13 8:11:51 AM#26

It's not action combat that kills raiding it's how developers create the game that does.

They could easily make collision so you can't pass trough people, tough dungeons were you don't rush but have to be careful of traps and sneaky encounters and trinity helps too with tanks on the front while the rest behind him just incase.

To conclude, I didn't read the whole thread just basing my post on the title.

  Dejoblue

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/11
Posts: 295

I'll give them heroics...and when everyone is super...no one will be.

8/04/13 8:15:28 AM#27
Originally posted by Margulis
Well Dave already said in an interview there isn't going to be raiding like in other games, because there is no end game or level cap.  What he did say made it sound like scaleable public events

I think there may be emergent raiding as in a bunch of tier 3 geared players get together to kill tier 4 NPCs in tier 4 dungeons. Other than that I dont know that there will be really restrictions because there are numerous boss fights in raids without an aggro table. There are still raid mechanics that can be implemented such as someone needing to be in melee range and say the boss does a massive strike and sicne someone has to be in melee to keep the boss from berserking or what have you the tanks stay in and take the cleave. The bug kiting fight in HoF in WoW in Mist is a great example of not needing tanks but having a strategy that requires kiting and DPS to kill what needs to be killed and not zerg on the boss.

 

I am not worried, they can do raids f they want to and I hope they do becasue I love them.

  Jockan

Elite Member

Joined: 9/03/08
Posts: 4243

8/04/13 8:18:58 AM#28
They have not showed enough of the combat to say it kills raiding.

  leoo88556

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 136

8/04/13 8:40:06 AM#29

It might surprise you...

but most of the people playing mmos are NOT that into raiding.

 

We heard it all the time because the hardcore crowd tend to be more vocal about their feelings, and that's all.

  Zapzap

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/31/13
Posts: 212

8/04/13 8:50:10 AM#30

It just means another MMO made top heavy with no endgame.  Made for casuals and game hoppers not for veteran MMO players that want a long term game.  Made for short term dollars and not for the long term. It is very sad to see the SOE do this to the EQ franchise and EQ playerbase.  One might as well just call this game GW3.

But maybe its a bit to early to judge.  We shall see.  But so far it looks like a sellout game made to emphasize flash over substance.  The next question is how do they plan to fleece people out of money.  In GW2 it was massive box sale money.  Without box sales in EQN they will have to take peoples money quickly in other ways.

The news of EQN seems to be just more evidence of the death of MMOs as big business drains the soul and life out of each new game. With the emphasis on hype and marketing over gameplay.

 

  munx4555

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 170

8/04/13 8:55:30 AM#31

Action combat in it self is not the real issue, dcuo managed to have raids (even if the game was down to like 50 players per server at one point).

The major issue is that they say healers and tanks won't be needed, I can't belive that mmo veterans like SoE don't understand how idiotic that sounds.. newsflash, when healers and tanks arnt needed they wont be used, period.

Even those who want to use them because they enjoy the gameplay will be bullied into going dps because theyr holding back theyr group.

I find it kinda hillarious that SoE belives that they are giving players more freedom by doing this, Gw2 made it perfectly clear that you actually end up with less.

Bye bye to the holy trinity, say hello to the holy dps race.

  InFlamestwo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/20/11
Posts: 677

8/04/13 8:57:37 AM#32
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by Nadia

if nothing else, EQ was known for bringing raiding to mmos

Georgeson said there are large scale encounters but its unclear on how large

It will work like in GW2, scalable Epic encounters where 30+ people try as hard as they can to smash button as fast as possible to kill the thing...................not my idea of Raiding.

Combat in EQNext seems pretty wrong, aimed at 12 y/o lightspeed typing wizards...................

Meta events/bosses are not even ArenaNets take on raiding. As i said one page back, ArenaNet is working on something similar to raiding. If it's an instance or if it's a whole zone.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3468

8/04/13 9:09:27 AM#33
Originally posted by munx4555

Action combat in it self is not the real issue, dcuo managed to have raids (even if the game was down to like 50 players per server at one point).

The major issue is that they say healers and tanks won't be needed, I can't belive that mmo veterans like SoE don't understand how idiotic that sounds.. newsflash, when healers and tanks arnt needed they wont be used, period.

Even those who want to use them because they enjoy the gameplay will be bullied into going dps because theyr holding back theyr group.

I find it kinda hillarious that SoE belives that they are giving players more freedom by doing this, Gw2 made it perfectly clear that you actually end up with less.

Bye bye to the holy trinity, say hello to the holy dps race.

     Agreed.. from my viewing GW2 is about 90% dps, and 10% other..  Either dps or you're gimping yourself and others.. Sure some GW2 can have an AOE heal, but it's often a MINOR heal, with slow refresh.. It definitely not something you can stand back and group heal with..

  Margulis

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/14/08
Posts: 1643

8/04/13 9:16:18 AM#34
No raiding has already been confirmed so yeah.
  Graey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/22/10
Posts: 218

8/04/13 9:21:32 AM#35

you know i just thought of something.

people are saying that GW2 is a zergfest meaning everyone just shoots and that's it.

Now let's take WOW, RIFT for example...the tank holds aggro and you just shoot....is that not the same thing?

Although I disliked the GW2 model simply because the characters just seemed to shallow. So I can see what they are saying just thought I'd point out the similarities of both stances.

  Mothanos

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 1867

8/04/13 9:26:16 AM#36


Originally posted by munx4555
Action combat in it self is not the real issue, dcuo managed to have raids (even if the game was down to like 50 players per server at one point).

The major issue is that they say healers and tanks won't be needed, I can't belive that mmo veterans like SoE don't understand how idiotic that sounds.. newsflash, when healers and tanks arnt needed they wont be used, period.

Even those who want to use them because they enjoy the gameplay will be bullied into going dps because theyr holding back theyr group.

I find it kinda hillarious that SoE belives that they are giving players more freedom by doing this, Gw2 made it perfectly clear that you actually end up with less.

Bye bye to the holy trinity, say hello to the holy dps race.



Aye Correct.......

Its GW2 all over again and i ran away from GW2 as hard as i could after 6 months.
I tried a healing spec gaurdian, i was not making a diffrence so i gave up.
I tried tanking as warrior but it wasnt worth a damn as i coulnt hold aggro did crap dps and and dint receive healing to make it worthwhile.
+ some people are going to mock you for trying to be diffrent, you need to follow the fotm even more or you will be the laughing stock with sub par dps.


So everyone is going to run around with fotm dps classes and faceroll trough the world.
spamming the same buttons....
Seeing the same effects....
its horrible.....


I cannot understand that the makers of EQN made this retarded decision....
Dint they played GW2 for at least a few hours before copy pasting all that shit into EQN ?
Dint someone at SOE said, HOLD STOP WAIT - GW2 combat is the most boring combat ever in any mmo created !!!! STOP RIGHT THERE NOAW !!!!
How could they make that decision....

Was there no1 there to speak up the concern about ZERG behavior you get with this kind of combat ?
/shakes head disapointed....

People will find out for themselves when they are playing these kind of action rpg games.
If thats your cup of thee, excelent, but it aint a true mmo.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3468

8/04/13 9:29:16 AM#37
Originally posted by Graey

you know i just thought of something.

people are saying that GW2 is a zergfest meaning everyone just shoots and that's it.

Now let's take WOW, RIFT for example...the tank holds aggro and you just shoot....is that not the same thing?

Although I disliked the GW2 model simply because the characters just seemed to shallow. So I can see what they are saying just thought I'd point out the similarities of both stances.

     Sure it's the same from a dps point of view..  But they no way play the same.. I played a healer since I was an EQ Druid in 1999.. When I left to go play WoW, I was both a Holy Pally and Priest.. Heals were my thing and I was damn good at it..  When I healed my concentration was on the group or raid.. Which is A lot different then just watching the Mob's health bar.. In fact most of the time I NEVER knew what the health of the mob was until it died and fell.. or someone called it out..  When I kited with my Druid I played him different then when I was healing.. or when I was just playing support with DoT's and snares.. 

     The MORE roles that are available, the more dynamic groups become and the more FUN in my opinion.. Games today , even GW2 the sole focus is the MOB, and if someone falls, you run over and "revive" them.. That is about it..  Positioning the mob is no longer an issue.. Crowd Control.. What's that?   Kiting >> GONE..  I almost anymore feel I'm playing a single character game in different clothes..

  -Ellessar-

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/06
Posts: 98

8/04/13 9:29:45 AM#38
Originally posted by Graey

you know i just thought of something.

people are saying that GW2 is a zergfest meaning everyone just shoots and that's it.

Now let's take WOW, RIFT for example...the tank holds aggro and you just shoot....is that not the same thing?

Although I disliked the GW2 model simply because the characters just seemed to shallow. So I can see what they are saying just thought I'd point out the similarities of both stances.

If you don't see the difference between the combat in GW2 and WoW, then you simply don't get it.  You don't understand MMOs. They are nothing alike.  

In WoW you have to have a tank, you have to have a healer, you can have a utility class, and you have DPS.  There are roles in combat.  You cannot play WoW and run a group with five DPS.  It doesn't work.  You must have class balance.    

In GW2 there is only DPS.  If you play anything else you are the weak link of your group.  There is only Pew Pew in GW2.  There is virtually no point in doing anything else.  You run in and DPS, or more likely you stay at range and shoot since melee sucks. The only factor to completing the encounter is can you out nuke whatever your group is fighting.     

  azarhal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 580

8/04/13 9:29:46 AM#39
Originally posted by ste2000

It will work like in GW2, scalable Epic encounters where 30+ people try as hard as they can to smash button as fast as possible to kill the thing...................not my idea of Raiding.

Combat in EQNext seems pretty wrong, aimed at 12 y/o lightspeed typing wizards...................

Smashing buttons in EQNext will have disastrous consequences. 30 people all using skills that can alter the terrain will just create a really big crater  and probably cause a large chunk of them to be unable to attack the boss...

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3468

8/04/13 9:33:12 AM#40
Originally posted by azarhal
Originally posted by ste2000

It will work like in GW2, scalable Epic encounters where 30+ people try as hard as they can to smash button as fast as possible to kill the thing...................not my idea of Raiding.

Combat in EQNext seems pretty wrong, aimed at 12 y/o lightspeed typing wizards...................

Smashing buttons in EQNext will have disastrous consequences. 30 people all using skills that can alter the terrain will just create a really big crater  and probably cause a large chunk of them to be unable to attack the boss...

LOL.. but have no fear, they won't die.. From what I saw in the video you can drop 100 feet and not suffer a scratch.. We are GODZ.. 

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