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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » What's people's problem with instances.

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279 posts found
  mos0811

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 173

7/30/13 2:43:36 PM#121
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by mos0811
 The whole point of an mmoRPG is to get thousands of players together in the same place

Even if that is so, MMOs don't have thousands of players, they have hundreds of thousands of players.  

 

But really, i am not so sure about the thousand player experience, in my 15 years, i've experienced very few things in a MMORPG that benefited from having a thousand players in the same place.

 

I've had some excellent experiences with a few hundred people, but after 200-300, it all starts to blend pretty much.

 

The vast majority of great MMO experiences that I've had have been with less than 100 people, probably with less than 50. 

 

What you need thousands of players for is to inhabit the world.   To know they're there, to work the economy, etc.  I don't need to see them all at the same time.  

There are a lot of levels working here; first I agree that a lot of fun I have had in games are when 50-100 people are fighting in sieges/banes in Shadowbane.  Second I have seen 1k people in EvE together for alliance wars, and yes sometimes it's a slideshow, but I would still prefer open world over instancing.

I agree the world needs players to be alive.

  xAPOCx

Elite Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 812

7/30/13 2:47:14 PM#122
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Instancing take players out of the game world and places them in their own little world. Everyone should inhabit the same space. Not wisked off to a instance to run a "safe" group.

 

Why? If the rest of the world is standing outside, why can't I "enter the house (instance)" to get away from them?

cause others CANT follow you into the house. The inside of the house is REMOVED from the WORLD. 

 

Why do they need to follow me into the house? Especially if it's on a PvE server? How does my entering the house affect the other people any more then if I logged off for a while?

Because when your in your instanced "house" it removes you from the game world completely thus reducing the population. Remember its not just you in your "house". Its hundreds maybe thousands of people in there "house" ir instance. Reducing town, city and open world populations. Making the world feel empty and unpopulated. 

 

And just a fyi. I don't want to follow you into your house. Just like i don't follow people into their house for no reason in RL. But when i drive up the street and see my  neighbors lights on it makes me feel good.

But then all the non instanced housing zones i know where allways empty, noboddy walking there, as people where either offline or out adventuring.  

Instanced housing prevents the world from becomming cluttered with empty houses.. And adds a lot to the immersion i get. The EQ2 solution was in my book the best housing so far.

I would like to have both systems of housing. But make it so the EQ2 apartment style housing more realistic. Making stand alone apartments in major cities. Like BD housing? Not sure on all the deets on BD housing but it looked like non instanced apartments. 

As for the world being cluttered by empty homes. I dont see it that way. To me they are things that players built and now inhabit the living world. If a house is left behind or abandoned. That how should be put up for auction and let someone that wants the space buy it and use it. 

 

With all that said. When i used the word house. I was referring to ALL instances. The fellow i was in talks with used the word house ( instance ) so i just stuck with his talking point lol. Perhaps i should have been more clear and just said instances from the start. 

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8525

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

7/30/13 2:50:59 PM#123
Originally posted by mos0811
Originally posted by knightaudit

Let me pose to you this ... You enter a dank dark cave, you and your fellow adventurers stay close as you move in the dark, the feel of the place is one lost to time. In the distance you see a pedistal and on it a sword the glows amid the darkness.

Something rushes past you and Yoink grabs the sword, it is an Elf who is far more powerful than you, then he runs past you leaving you in the dark ... swordless

So tell me who wants an open dungeon or an instanced one?

Open dungeon all the way.  If I wasn't fast enough, powerful enough to get the sword first then I don't deserve it.  Weapons and armor are not a right, but a gift, and not everyone is going to get the gift.

But then in many open dungeons there are litterally hundreds of adventurers running around, cursing at all and eberyone for mob stealing and such, ruining the last bit of immersion for me is the fact that we need to stand in line to get our chance at the finall boss.

I think the way SWTOR handles instances is quite nice ..  Without loading times,... If ypu replace  the bright red blocks and place the green access somewhere on the ground, phasing could really work well and natural

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online and Wildstar

  xAPOCx

Elite Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 812

7/30/13 2:51:33 PM#124
Originally posted by knightaudit

Let me pose to you this ... You enter a dank dark cave, you and your fellow adventurers stay close as you move in the dark, the feel of the place is one lost to time. In the distance you see a pedistal and on it a sword the glows amid the darkness.

Something rushes past you and Yoink grabs the sword, it is an Elf who is far more powerful than you, then he runs past you leaving you in the dark ... swordless

So tell me who wants an open dungeon or an instanced one?

I still want an open dungeon. 

 

 

  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2881

 
OP  7/30/13 2:55:42 PM#125

I seriously don't understand how you guys expect there to be any form of decent raiding without instances. You can not do certain mechanics in an open world without doing it in a closed off dungeon.

You can't allow scripts to run wild in the open world and randomly resetting them. You can't reset a script in an open world without knowing if anyone is there or not.

You can't do a zonewide AE like in dreadspire without doing it in an instance.

And you might think Kunark is a great expansion, and I agree, but the raids in EQ pre-GoD were pitiful tank and spank raids.

 

It wasn't until they started to use instances with GoD that raids became interesting, since they now could run advanced scripts.

It wasn't until they started to use group instances with MPG and GoD that group dungeons became interesting.

Guk and COM and Grieg's were very fun for the community, but they were also one-dimensional boring dungeons that didn't run any scripts, had no strategy to them, nothing. It was instances with KT  that introduced FUN and difficulty into the dungeons.

  Stiler

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 592

7/30/13 3:03:05 PM#126

Instances have their places and can be good for providing a way for the developers to give players specific story content without being interrupted by other players.

However instances can be overused, and EQ2 is a PERFECT example of TERRIBLE instancing.

In the open world instances ruin immersion, when you have multiple "instances" of the same city/open world area it creates a feeling of disconnect between the players. You talk to someone and want to meet up or go find a friend? IN EQ you could just say where you were, in town, etc and they'd come to you.

IN EQ2 you had to give your instance, people had to hop into another instance. It just breaks the feeling of the world and makes it feel hollow.

Housing being instanced was also a HUGE killer. Nothing "breaks" housing in terms of a social interaction faster then making housing instanced.

In UO/SWG with open world housing where it wasn't instanced, this was soooooo much more worthwhile. PEople would randomly stop by your house, your friends/guild mates could just wander by and visit or you could do the same with them. You'd be out exploring and come across a crafters shop and stop by to buy gear, with them usually there crafting or doing things, talk to them and chat up.

That was all missing in EQ2 because of instancing.

As I said, instances have their place, but it's mainly for very FEW and tightly controlled situations where the dev wants to present a story to that specific player, otherwise it shouldn't be instanced.

 

 

  Chuckanar

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/05/04
Posts: 187

7/30/13 3:03:53 PM#127
What I miss in MMO's is the fact of how HUGE the world was in EQ. Nowadays you are expected to be lazy and just by whining you get stuff for free. I honestly miss the days of chatting with people while I bartered for  SoW so I could run from one end of the world to almost the other side so I could join my clan in a few hours for some dungeon runs. Kids now expect to be able to just port everywhere and get anything. There is no longer any satisfaction for attaining your Fungal armor or such. That to me is what is ruining gaming culture. To many punks that dont want to earn their loot or other asshats that just want to be able to buy it. Just my opinion so take it as you wish.
  Stiler

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 592

7/30/13 3:04:28 PM#128
Originally posted by Waterlily

I seriously don't understand how you guys expect there to be any form of decent raiding without instances. You can not do certain mechanics in an open world without doing it in a closed off dungeon.

You can't allow scripts to run wild in the open world and randomly resetting them. You can't reset a script in an open world without knowing if anyone is there or not.

Sure you can, easily have a way to tell if there's a player within "x" distance of mob (the server is going to know where a player is) and if there's no player then script reset.

 

  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2881

 
OP  7/30/13 3:06:42 PM#129
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by Waterlily

I seriously don't understand how you guys expect there to be any form of decent raiding without instances. You can not do certain mechanics in an open world without doing it in a closed off dungeon.

You can't allow scripts to run wild in the open world and randomly resetting them. You can't reset a script in an open world without knowing if anyone is there or not.

Sure you can, easily have a way to tell if there's a player within "x" distance of mob (the server is going to know where a player is) and if there's no player then script reset.

 

Tell me how you would do a zonewide AE in an open world like in Dreadspire?

There's certain things that just aren't possible in the open world.

  xAPOCx

Elite Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 812

7/30/13 3:07:53 PM#130
Originally posted by Distopia

Everything old is good everything new is bad, that's the vibe I get when reading through these threads.

Instancing (in dungeons) is all about tailoring a piece of content toward a specific experience (immersion). As well as ensuring everyone gets a fair shot at a piece of content.

Open dungeons are controlled by the biggest guilds, at least those of importance to gear. By doing so they control the market on rare items, they grow richer because of it. It's not hard to figure out why they'd want non-instanced dungeons.

Wrong. VG had OPEN "instances" with lockout timers on bosses. No camping APW for raid lootz. 

Also Instance dungeons are not immersive. scripted fights are so 2004. 

Also, and this is just me, but this ensuring everyone gets a fair shot at a piece of content is bullshit. 

Its why we now have awards for people that just show the hell up for competition. Sorry but i don't believe in the "everyone should get a medal" system. 

Poor design is poor design. If the game allows for market monopolizing then thats the design of the game. 

  xAPOCx

Elite Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 812

7/30/13 3:08:51 PM#131
Originally posted by mos0811
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by ArzhAngel

Simple:

Any form for Instances are for singleplayer game, and have nothing to do in a mmorpg.

The point of instances is to control the population of an area so that the area provides the optimal experience to that population.  You would never need one in a single-player game as the population of a single-player game is always 1.  Instances- pretty much by definition - are a tool for multiplayer games with large populations (i.e. MMOs).  

Instances are a crutch so devs don't have to do proper network code, or put proper hardware resources towards the problem.  The whole point of an mmoRPG is to get thousands of players together in the same place; not to code it so that thousands of players can be in smalls groups in hundreds of different instances.

This is also goes hand in hand with how many polygons are drawn and why mmoRPGs should NOT be eye candy.  Single player games are great for new graphics, but mmoRPGs need to keep their draw count low on purpose to allow for hundreds-thousands of people to be in the same area at the same time.

Just because a tool was created doesn't mean it should be used.

+1 to this

  jonesing22

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/01/10
Posts: 681

7/30/13 3:13:14 PM#132
Originally posted by Karble
Originally posted by Karble

Instances are ok for certain reasons.

A good reason would be if a game dungeon was so big that you and your group/raid could not hope to clear it in a session of 4 to 6 hours. This would make instancing a good thing, since the progress you have made in the instance can be saved similar to if you were playing a pen and paper D&D campaign.

Other that that I don't really like the idea of instances in general.

Also in the same dungeon (if it's that big), you could have 6 or 10 parties doing various parts of the dungeon content and, both competing with and assisting each other with mobs.

Also I disagree with you about which was the best expansion.

The game itself and the first 5 expansions were the best in my opinion.

There were fantastic dungeons that were huge and not instanced mostly.

The open world had several areas that were a sort of dungeon themselves in the way the factions, mob placements etc worked.

There were class specific armors that, when you clicked, would cast a free spell from your class. These were usually deep in Karnor's Castle which could be tackled with a group, but you could easily get overwhelmed from a pull...so having multiple groups around to take extra mobs was nice. 

Scars of Velious continued the excellent design and expanded with a One Time killable dragon in Sleepers Tomb. There were huge giants in Kael Drakkal to face off against, Temple of Veeshan was crazy fun. Tower of Frozen Shadows. The first access to the planes of Gods......plane of Growth and plane of Mischief. Velkitor's Labrynth......so much good content.

The Shadows of Luclin was an amazing masterpiece as well. There were many zones that required faction and several steps to be able to get to the final boss and slay them. Once done this would give you a piece of the over all key needed to get to another place which ended up in a crazy zone called Vex Thal. This was the point in the game they introduced The Bazaar and The Nexus. These allowed for players to set their char up as a vendor in the game and leave pc on all day so others could come to their char and look through bags and purchase items for whatever value you had decided was fair.

The Planes of Power....

This took tiered content and raiding very seriously. Once again following the "key" formula, they had something called flagging. To get a character into any of the higher tier zones, a player had to talk with npcs and kill bosses in the previous tier planes. It was full raiding and good fun. They introduced some things in this expansion that were also questionable like the POK with portals to everywhere. This broke part of the massiveness of the previous content and hurt part of the value of a few classes in the game. But the concept of the high end God content was impressive.

The Legacy of Ykesha

This added very unique collection of areas to the game. The fights were fun and the areas gave players from 30 to 60 something fun to do. It was also quite dangerous there as well.

Almost all of what I have listed here is what I would call.....the best of EQ

After this, the other expansions added very little in terms of game play. Sure they extended the quest, added more levels, more unlocks, more AA, instancing etc...

But I would say that instancing as a whole felt very un-mmo to me. It's almost like choosing to just be alone in a setting where you are surrounded by others who are alone as well. Very ghost town feeling there. What's the point of playing a game with thousands of players if you only want to play by yourself or with a few other people. There are multi-player games that have this built into them as a foundation.

For myself and most people I know....a zone or a non-zoned world is best. Not the instanced zone where you are all alone.

Sorry about the text wall. didn't realize until after I hit send....lol.

Gave it a full read and I cannot agree more.

  xAPOCx

Elite Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 812

7/30/13 3:20:55 PM#133
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Xthos

 

It's opinion, some like, some don't....

 

Some like, some don't.  Some have no clue what they're talking about or what instancing is.  

 

People say that "instancing makes me feel alone, because it separates me from others and makes me feel like i'm playing a single player game".  

 

Oh ok.  Let me give you an example.  Vanguard - very famously - had an non-instanced "open-world".   To send me to specific quest NPCs or quest fights - in the absence of instances - Vanguard would teleport my character to the top of a faraway mountain where no other players could reach via regular travel.  What Vanguard did was basically separate me from others and make me feel like i was playing a single player game.   OMG!  I have open-world games because they separate me from others and make me feel like playing a single-player game!

 

Uhm.  No.  Open world had nothing to do with that design.  The developers decided that this particular quest experience should separate me from others.  If i didn't like that experience, I didn't like it.  I am not going to blame open-world technology that enabled it for the way that the developers chose to implement something.

 

Instancing can enable hundreds of people to play together and share meaningful experiences.  It can also enable individual experiences.  Small group experiences.  Any amount of people experiences. Chances are, some of those experience you will enjoy and some you won't.    Don't blame the technology, because chances are, virtually every experience you've ever had in an MMO can also happen in an instance (hey, just make a 2nd copy of EVE and suddenly you have 2 instances of EVE and everything that happens in one of them is "instanced") 

False. I could reach any peak in the game with my flying mount. Also even if i didn't have a flying mount and i had that same quest, it would port me to the same location you were at and guess who would be standing there? YOU WOULD BE STANDING THERE! Why were you standing there? BECAUSE YOU WERE STILL IN THE SAME WORLD AS ME!

 

You weren't ported to some instance. You were teleported to someplace within the same world. Where others could interact with the same things you could. I feel like im taking crazy pills. 

  Prenho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/12
Posts: 306

7/30/13 3:26:54 PM#134
It's funny to see some people who want this game to be another wow clone, as if there were few themeparks on the market.
  Heretique

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/02/07
Posts: 955

Most of my posts get deleted.

7/30/13 3:27:20 PM#135

Instances have just been an answer to a lot of band-aid fixes when it comes to how to handle the population and the engine. Seeing what other games have done, I am pretty sure EQNext could put the "Massive" back in Massively Multiplayer Online. All depends on what they do to cull the population to what systems and the engine can handle.

Originally posted by salsa41
are you have problem ?

  xAPOCx

Elite Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 812

7/30/13 3:29:24 PM#136
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by xAPOCx
 
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by xAPOCx

Because when your in your instanced "house" it removes you from the game world completely thus reducing the population. Remember its not just you in your "house". Its hundreds maybe thousands of people in there "house" ir instance. Reducing town, city and open world populations. Making the world feel empty and unpopulated. 

When i go into my RL house, it reduces the street population and makes the streets feel empty.  But it doesn't reduce the world's population.  The same with an in-game house.  Just because i'm in my house, doesn't make it one less people in the world.  People can still call me (chat with me), visit me in my house or ask me to come outside and play.   Just because I'm in my house doesn't mean i'm gone from the world.  And my neighbours can see my light on in their friends list and be comforted by the fact that I'm there.  

 

Not really sure where this analogy was going...

"House in this sense in any instance. using the word house was just to describe an instance. ( see the conversation i was having with the other poster) So yes when you and 1000 other people are in your house or "instance" as it were, you are reducing the world pop because you are no longer in the same world. You have been removed and placed into another world.... the instance. 

 

That was where the analogy was going... 

Not really because someone from outside can still break in uninvited and loot your stuff so its not truly a private instance

what? I dont understand what your trying to say. How can someone break in to someones private instance?

  Gholos

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/13
Posts: 209

7/30/13 3:32:06 PM#137
Originally posted by Waterlily

I really don't get this hate towards instances. MMORPG.com now has an article "What we don't want in EQnext: Instances".

I don't know who this "we" is. People who never played EQ?

The best expansions in Everquest were the heavily instanced ones.

LDON-OOW (proving grounds trials+pizza instances)-DoN-DoD (amazing expansion, also the best looking one imo)

Let alone all the raid instances, which were actually a huge improvement over the mob ganking and drama caused on the server.

GoD group instances, one of the most fun and rewarding content you could find. Ask anyone what the most fun group content was and many will say LDON, DoD, MPG trials and the freeport Badge Arena battle. All instanced.

I have no idea why some people don't want instances. If done right, they are great.

I have nothing against istances, if challenging. If the devs will introduce in EQN an OW FFA PvP (i hope not) i will prefer istances for normal dungeons and raids.


"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.

  arieste

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3301

7/30/13 3:48:44 PM#138
For Waterlily - you can have the same scripts in the open world as you do instances. EQ2 does this. The AEs are just raid-wide and impact everyone that is engaged to the encounter. So all the same things can happen as in instance. The difference is that it's more laggy and other people can grief you jumping around through the fight to distract you and stuff. But it can be done.

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  frizzlepickle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/13
Posts: 74

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln

7/30/13 3:54:00 PM#139
Originally posted by Manakar
You are confusing zones with instances as far as your comment about EQ having instances.. Instances are more private where zones anyone can come into it..

Zones suck IMO. Instances are great. They just need to be used modestly and only when necessary not for the sake of it. Otherwise it feels like I'm playing a CoD lobby game with different types of maps but not a living and full "world". Without instances everything becomes a zerg cluster fuck with no real strategy, half the fun is working together with your guild to overcome a challenge. Not thousands of players all half-heartedly spamming the 1 button and then getting a reward for it. Though that is also fun. Hence why I say do both.

  Karble

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/09
Posts: 640

I play therefor I am

7/30/13 3:56:46 PM#140
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by Waterlily

I seriously don't understand how you guys expect there to be any form of decent raiding without instances. You can not do certain mechanics in an open world without doing it in a closed off dungeon.

You can't allow scripts to run wild in the open world and randomly resetting them. You can't reset a script in an open world without knowing if anyone is there or not.

Sure you can, easily have a way to tell if there's a player within "x" distance of mob (the server is going to know where a player is) and if there's no player then script reset.

 

Tell me how you would do a zonewide AE in an open world like in Dreadspire?

There's certain things that just aren't possible in the open world.

There is logic applied to the game design and server clusters.

If a player casts a rain spell it can just happen in the server cluster around them basically within the logical area to give a perception to them and players within a few shouts that rain had just magically happened.

Also there is something starting to be used called massive server or something. Basically it uses a technology so that you see friends and guild members first, then enemy players next...then other players as there is room for you to see them up to the point where the server and your pc capacity are reached with a smooth frame rate.

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