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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » What's people's problem with instances.

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279 posts found
  arieste

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3311

7/30/13 2:29:23 PM#81
Originally posted by jonesing22

Okay a few points you're not seeing. These point are more relying on the fact EQN will be more like EQ. You're thinking EQN will have a single starting town will a single starting area for 10k players on one server but that is the newer MMOs plaguing your mind. You're thinking that anyone in EQN will be a 'chosen one'. That is also a symptom of newer MMOs. It's really weird how I never, even after all those times in Crushbone, saw a 'yo mama' joke used in chat until i played WoW. There was a share of trolls in EQ but they didn't last long because there was a community in each zone. You couldn't queue for a dungeon and troll a group from a random server. In EQ, the trolls received a /ignore from everyone. Then they left the game because they couldn't accomplish anything on their own.

I'm seeing things quite well and I'm not assuming the things you think I am.  Those are just examples.  It doesn't matter how many starting towns you have.  Fact is, NO possible starting town will be immersive with 50,000 people in it.  And if you have 500k population and you have 10 starting towns, that makes 50k per town.    If you have a dungeon, it may be more immersive if there is 10 people than 2, but that same dungeon doesn't become "more immersive" when you stick 1,000 people into.  

 

Any given space in game has an ideal number of people that it would be most immersive with.  Instancing allows developers to control that and ensure that we the players get the designed experience - whether that experience is designed for 5, 10, 50 or 1000 people.   If i go into a hidden bear cave in the forest and there is 200 people in it, there is absolutely nothing immersive about that.   Or if i go into someone's house and there is 300 people in there.    

 

As far as trolls and yo momma jokes, I've never played WoW, but i've met asshats and morons in every single MMO for 15 years.  Low-population niche games tend to have better communities, but large AAA MMOs - regardless of sandbox or themeparks - all draw from the same pool.  

 

The "chosen one" was just an example.  I am very much hoping that EQN will be more like SWG and make us all just regular blokes.  But regardless of whether it does, you can bet your ass that at someone point, some NPC in the game will send you to find some "hidden lair".  And when you find the hidden lair having 500 people in it, you can't help but think "how the f*** is this a hidden lair?!?"

 

Instancing is a tool for managing how many people share an in-game experience.  It doesn't preclude shared dungeons, community or running into other people.  It can.  But so can open-world design.    It's all about how the (development) tools are used, not whether they're used or not.  

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  Masterfuzzfuzz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/13
Posts: 176

7/30/13 2:29:23 PM#82
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by Kiyoris

Vanguard had non-instanced big dungeons. I remember that I had to run down all the way into the dungeon to see if it was camped by anone to do my quest, asking how long they would be there, wasting hours not playing.

Give me instanced dungeons anytime over that.

 

One must wonder why quest mobs would be on long timers. Did it make it more fun or more "immersive" /  frustrating?

This was back before gearing/hitting max level was the sole purpose of the game. The reason I didn't mind it much was that when my favorite zone was full, it forced me to go somewhere else (and there were lots of places in each level range) and make new friends. EQ wasn't originally about the levels or progression. It was about being in a new world. Unfortunately, MMOs are full of people like you now who's sole purpose in the game is to rush through levels as efficiently as possible. When I first started EQ, I played to be in a new world and explore something that was completely different than anything I had tried before. I killed rats and wolves, moved onto orc hill and crushbone, unrest was usually full so I explored some more, went to other continents.

 

EverQuest was also never about first tags. It was who did 51% of the mobs hp. Thats why you could go to low level zones, nuke emperor crush when he was at 55% and get the drops. Idk where this first tag stuff came from. Different mindset these days. The games aren't about worlds, community, and exploration. They're about questing to max level and min/maxing your gear for DPS charts. I expect EQN will be similar and have a lot of instancing/low socialization from the pre-2000 MMOs.

  Masterfuzzfuzz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/13
Posts: 176

7/30/13 2:30:44 PM#83
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by jonesing22

Okay a few points you're not seeing. These point are more relying on the fact EQN will be more like EQ. You're thinking EQN will have a single starting town will a single starting area for 10k players on one server but that is the newer MMOs plaguing your mind. You're thinking that anyone in EQN will be a 'chosen one'. That is also a symptom of newer MMOs. It's really weird how I never, even after all those times in Crushbone, saw a 'yo mama' joke used in chat until i played WoW. There was a share of trolls in EQ but they didn't last long because there was a community in each zone. You couldn't queue for a dungeon and troll a group from a random server. In EQ, the trolls received a /ignore from everyone. Then they left the game because they couldn't accomplish anything on their own.

I'm seeing things quite well and I'm not assuming the things you think I am.  Those are just examples.  It doesn't matter how many starting towns you have.  Fact is, NO possible starting town will be immersive with 50,000 people in it.  And if you have 500k population and you have 10 starting towns, that makes 50k per town.    If you have a dungeon, it may be more immersive if there is 10 people than 2, but that same dungeon doesn't become "more immersive" when you stick 1,000 people into.  

 

Any given space in game has an ideal number of people that it would be most immersive with.  Instancing allows developers to control that and ensure that we the players get the designed experience - whether that experience is designed for 5, 10, 50 or 1000 people.   If i go into a hidden bear cave in the forest and there is 200 people in it, there is absolutely nothing immersive about that.   Or if i go into someone's house and there is 300 people in there.    

 

As far as trolls and yo momma jokes, I've never played WoW, but i've met asshats and morons in every single MMO for 15 years.  Low-population niche games tend to have better communities, but large AAA MMOs - regardless of sandbox or themeparks - all draw from the same pool.  

 

The "chosen one" was just an example.  I am very much hoping that EQN will be more like SWG and make us all just regular blokes.  But regardless of whether it does, you can bet your ass that at someone point, some NPC in the game will send you to find some "hidden lair".  And when you find the hidden lair having 500 people in it, you can't help but think "how the f*** is this a hidden lair?!?"

 

Instancing is a tool for managing how many people share an in-game experience.  It doesn't preclude shared dungeons, community or running into other people.  It can.  But so can open-world design.    It's all about how the (development) tools are used, not whether they're used or not.  

500k is more subs than EQ1 ever had. Almost no one even knows about this game. I don't expect more than 200k people at launch and divided among 5+ servers and 10 starting zones, you won't be with 50k other people.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

7/30/13 2:30:54 PM#84
I'm all for seamless worlds with no instancing if the game developers have found solutions to the problems instancing was invented to fix because of  complaints from the MMORPG player base at the time.
  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

7/30/13 2:36:48 PM#85
Instancing take players out of the game world and places them in their own little world. Everyone should inhabit the same space. Not wisked off to a instance to run a "safe" group.

  Shadowguy64

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/13
Posts: 880

7/30/13 2:40:45 PM#86
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Instancing take players out of the game world and places them in their own little world. Everyone should inhabit the same space. Not wisked off to a instance to run a "safe" group.

 

Why? If the rest of the world is standing outside, why can't I "enter the house (instance)" to get away from them?

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

7/30/13 2:41:00 PM#87
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by jonesing22
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Nothing wrong with instances, they where actual the first answer to spawn and bosscamping, and they are the main reason WoW made MMOs go mainstream and far beyound the EQ crowds drinking beer behind their compuers and bragging about how epic their 3 day wayt was.

So far the only other answers seen are phasing and GW2s dynamic events that actually allow everyone to share the fight with the boss that just got triggereed by some zone wide activities.  

 

if there is one thing i dont want to see in EQnext then its spawncamping, and 20 minutes sitting down to regain health or mana.  That and Faey. 

 

Personally i think EQnext will a be a hevilly phased and somewhat instanced Sanbox..

Go play WoW. Go play RIFT. Go play GW2. Go play almost any MMO that has released in the last 6 years. Oh, wait, they're all nearly dead or you're tired of them. Please tell me why. 

 

Why this reaction?  Do you recognise the uggly truth in my words and realise this game might not actually be what you want? 

 

Spawncamping and bosscamping like in Eq where the most retarded mechanics born in a time before developers even realised what problems would arise in MMO endgame zones.  The dissapearing of these charming campsides was one of the first really good evolutions in MMO history..

And the beginning of the antisocial gamer. 

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

7/30/13 2:41:48 PM#88
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Instancing take players out of the game world and places them in their own little world. Everyone should inhabit the same space. Not wisked off to a instance to run a "safe" group.

 

Why? If the rest of the world is standing outside, why can't I "enter the house (instance)" to get away from them?

cause others CANT follow you into the house. The inside of the house is REMOVED from the WORLD. 

  Shadowguy64

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/13
Posts: 880

7/30/13 2:49:56 PM#89
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Instancing take players out of the game world and places them in their own little world. Everyone should inhabit the same space. Not wisked off to a instance to run a "safe" group.

 

Why? If the rest of the world is standing outside, why can't I "enter the house (instance)" to get away from them?

cause others CANT follow you into the house. The inside of the house is REMOVED from the WORLD. 

 

Why do they need to follow me into the house? Especially if it's on a PvE server? How does my entering the house affect the other people any more then if I logged off for a while?

  Jahoikum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/14/13
Posts: 5

7/30/13 2:52:58 PM#90

I also think zones are bad. I played everyquest for years and I never was among the people to be able to camp a dungeon boss because I never had the time to be in good guilds or stay up to par with top players. but even with that being said, I STILL dont like instances.

Like people have said, they make everything like rinse and repeat, no variation, no interaction, just like a single player game. I dont like single player games I like multiplayer games because things change every time I log on. 

And let me say again to you people saying that wow had instances and look at how many people play: WOW's player numbers had NOTHING to do with how fun it was, they had warcraft, starcraft, and diablo that made millions play for the sole reason that blizzard made it. I played both games for years, and EQ1 was by far the funnest game (pre instances)

 

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

7/30/13 3:04:04 PM#91
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Instancing take players out of the game world and places them in their own little world. Everyone should inhabit the same space. Not wisked off to a instance to run a "safe" group.

 

Why? If the rest of the world is standing outside, why can't I "enter the house (instance)" to get away from them?

cause others CANT follow you into the house. The inside of the house is REMOVED from the WORLD. 

 

Why do they need to follow me into the house? Especially if it's on a PvE server? How does my entering the house affect the other people any more then if I logged off for a while?

Because when your in your instanced "house" it removes you from the game world completely thus reducing the population. Remember its not just you in your "house". Its hundreds maybe thousands of people in there "house" ir instance. Reducing town, city and open world populations. Making the world feel empty and unpopulated. 

 

And just a fyi. I don't want to follow you into your house. Just like i don't follow people into their house for no reason in RL. But when i drive up the street and see my  neighbors lights on it makes me feel good.

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

7/30/13 3:05:09 PM#92

I didn't hate LDoN on its own, but the expansions afterwards, and me personally doing some instance like 50 times (I quit, wanted to kill myself if I was going to do more instanced dungeons) in OOW or something like that, been a long time, and my wife did it almost a 100 times to get some SK these boots, and just how they work in general, made my hate instanced dungeons.

 

Instances make you feel like you are playing a lobby game, that the world is empty, besides your group.

 

 

I like mmos, because they are massive multiplayer, not massively 6 people everywhere is the maximum you run into most the time.

 

Sure open dungeons can have fustrations sometimes, I won't pretend they can't, but it also is what makes the game memorable, and fun imo.

 

So chalk me up to one of the "you people", I was SOO tired of instances after leaving EQ, that I refused to play a mmo with them for a few years, and let me tell you, their isn't much out there, since everyone took the  instances and ran with them.

 

OP likes them, and I remember reading stuff they wrote before, and their like of the very content I disliked, never said anything, but since this is a thread they started about it, I will add myself to the other camps list.

 

I much preferred EQ's content/feel for group play prior to LDoN.

  arieste

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3311

7/30/13 3:07:21 PM#93
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz

500k is more subs than EQ1 ever had. Almost no one even knows about this game. I don't expect more than 200k people at launch and divided among 5+ servers and 10 starting zones, you won't be with 50k other people.

EQ1 is an old game from the days when MMOs were a lot more niche than now.  These days, a AAA MMO, especially with one of the biggest available brands can expect around 500k people.  Especially when it's F2P.   But it's all guesses anyhow.  

 

As far as what you say... I would absolutely HATE for there to be multiple servers.  As someone who seems so deadset against instances, I am shocked that you would even suggest that.  How can you tolerate multiple copies of the same world, with tons of people that you can never interact with?  At least with instancing, you're all inhabiting the same world and can join your friends in whatever instance they're in, when you put people on different servers, you can't even talk to each other, much less trade with each other or run into each other.  

 

But you see what you're doing.. you're splitting the population into manageable chunks.  That's exactly what instancing does.  So on some level, you must understand the necessity for it. 

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

7/30/13 3:07:37 PM#94
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Instancing take players out of the game world and places them in their own little world. Everyone should inhabit the same space. Not wisked off to a instance to run a "safe" group.

 

Why? If the rest of the world is standing outside, why can't I "enter the house (instance)" to get away from them?

cause others CANT follow you into the house. The inside of the house is REMOVED from the WORLD. 

 

Why do they need to follow me into the house? Especially if it's on a PvE server? How does my entering the house affect the other people any more then if I logged off for a while?

Because when your in your instanced "house" it removes you from the game world completely thus reducing the population. Remember its not just you in your "house". Its hundreds maybe thousands of people in there "house" ir instance. Reducing town, city and open world populations. Making the world feel empty and unpopulated. 

 

And just a fyi. I don't want to follow you into your house. Just like i don't follow people into their house for no reason in RL. But when i drive up the street and see my  neighbors lights on it makes me feel good.

+1, I would rather not have housing personally, if it is instanced, just give me a bigger bank.  It feels like a secret closet to me, not a house when it is instanced.  I say this personally, but I know people do like it too, but that is my feelings on it.  It being instanced ruins it being my characters house, and it is no better than a bank in my mind at that point.

 

  ArzhAngel

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/04
Posts: 433

7/30/13 3:10:24 PM#95

Simple:

Any form for Instances are for singleplayer game, and have nothing to do in a mmorpg.

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11785

7/30/13 3:10:55 PM#96

I'm not anti-instance but I prefer public dungeons

 

I enjoyed both EQ1 Kunark and LDON

but Kunark is easily my favorite expansion among all mmos I've tried/played

 

Kunark expansion added content for all levels 1-50, great dungeons, ang raised the cap to 60

even if Kunark didnt raise the level cap -- the amount of new content was amazing

  arieste

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3311

7/30/13 3:12:04 PM#97
Originally posted by xAPOCx

Because when your in your instanced "house" it removes you from the game world completely thus reducing the population. Remember its not just you in your "house". Its hundreds maybe thousands of people in there "house" ir instance. Reducing town, city and open world populations. Making the world feel empty and unpopulated. 

When i go into my RL house, it reduces the street population and makes the streets feel empty.  But it doesn't reduce the world's population.  The same with an in-game house.  Just because i'm in my house, doesn't make it one less people in the world.  People can still call me (chat with me), visit me in my house or ask me to come outside and play.   Just because I'm in my house doesn't mean i'm gone from the world.  And my neighbours can see my light on in their friends list and be comforted by the fact that I'm there.  

 

Not really sure where this analogy was going...

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8857

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

7/30/13 3:12:11 PM#98
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Instancing take players out of the game world and places them in their own little world. Everyone should inhabit the same space. Not wisked off to a instance to run a "safe" group.

 

Why? If the rest of the world is standing outside, why can't I "enter the house (instance)" to get away from them?

cause others CANT follow you into the house. The inside of the house is REMOVED from the WORLD. 

 

Why do they need to follow me into the house? Especially if it's on a PvE server? How does my entering the house affect the other people any more then if I logged off for a while?

Because when your in your instanced "house" it removes you from the game world completely thus reducing the population. Remember its not just you in your "house". Its hundreds maybe thousands of people in there "house" ir instance. Reducing town, city and open world populations. Making the world feel empty and unpopulated. 

 

And just a fyi. I don't want to follow you into your house. Just like i don't follow people into their house for no reason in RL. But when i drive up the street and see my  neighbors lights on it makes me feel good.

But then all the non instanced housing zones i know where allways empty, noboddy walking there, as people where either offline or out adventuring.  

Instanced housing prevents the world from becomming cluttered with empty houses.. And adds a lot to the immersion i get. The EQ2 solution was in my book the best housing so far.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  Deolus

Novice Member

Joined: 5/30/05
Posts: 392

7/30/13 3:12:14 PM#99
I don't understand why people say that instances make it a single player game? Instances are for groups and raids mainly. How does that make it single player?
  arieste

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3311

7/30/13 3:14:46 PM#100
Originally posted by ArzhAngel

Simple:

Any form for Instances are for singleplayer game, and have nothing to do in a mmorpg.

The point of instances is to control the population of an area so that the area provides the optimal experience to that population.  You would never need one in a single-player game as the population of a single-player game is always 1.  Instances- pretty much by definition - are a tool for multiplayer games with large populations (i.e. MMOs).  

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

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