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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » What's people's problem with instances.

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279 posts found
  Lokero

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 334

7/30/13 11:32:55 AM#41
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by DAS1337
 

Sandboxes are supposed to reward you for your hard work and patience.  The harder you work, the greater the reward.  Themeparks are about instant gratification.  So if you've only played themeparks, or you've grown up where WoW was your first MMO, you may not understand the concept of 'immersion'.  Or you simply may not care about it, I have a friend that can really care less, so I get it.  I personally don't feel the same way, but I get it.  Then again, my first MMO was Ultima Online.  Followed by EQ and DAOC.

If the age in your profile is true, I was playing MMORPGs when you were still a kid and I was an adult since a long time.

Just to say - don't argue based on assumptions about other people - stick to facts.

Thanks.

I just dropped my rose colored glasses long ago. I remember those MMORPG pioneers with nostalgia, yes, but I'm also aware of some of the most awful mechanics they had, including camping a spawn for ages just to see it stolen by someone who just arrived at the spot, reaping you not only of the reward, which is secondary, but also ruining the fight you were looking forward to.

While I agree with what you are saying about the bad mechanics.  We have come to the age where "stealing" spawns isn't really possible anymore(if the devs aren't idiots).  We've reached that point now where everyone involved can get credit.

So, alot of the bad mechanics that people hated about open-world have been cleaned up and can be bypassed in newer systems.

The way I, personally, see it nowadays, is open world with proper restrictions/kill credit/etc. is the way to go.  I don't know if SoE will have the foresight to implement the appropriate "good neighbor" systems, but they are certainly available in today's gaming.

I am one of those people who hates instances with a passion(hate zone lines too SoE!).  But, I will say, that there are a few cases where it's kind of nice to have(trials and things like that).  Overall, though, I prefer fully opened and shared worlds.

  User Deleted
7/30/13 11:34:05 AM#42

There is no problem with instances. The problem is with people who think they know what a sandbox game actually is.

 

The reality is that nobody will ever agree on what a "sandbox" game is. People fill in the blanks with their own definitions and chaos ensues because nobody can agree.

EQNext has made the unfortunate misstep in simply breeding hype by using buzzwords but giving no detail allowing gamers to fill in their own banks with hopes and dreams. I expect an massive sundering once more is revealed. The majority of the negativity will come from players who think they know what a sandbox game is and will bash any game that fails to fit their own self-invented definition.

  Ice-Queen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2435

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

7/30/13 11:35:17 AM#43
I like seamless worlds and I'd kill for a game that doesn't have instanced dungeons, UO and DAOC dungeons were the best.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  Shadowguy64

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/13
Posts: 880

7/30/13 11:39:17 AM#44

I think the argument that instances break immersion is just silly. What is it...you need to have every other player in your line of site like some over protective mom?

 

An instance provides a brief group centric activity that allows players to enjoy advance boss battles, story, and loot without the negatives of being griefed by other groups. It's temporary.

 

I suppose if the game allowed equal loot of be earned in other ways, such as rare open world mobs, then there shouldn't be any problem. Those that enjoy instances can go enjoy them with their friends, and those that don't can camp their rare mobs of choice. It doesn't have to be either/or.

  Manakar

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/04
Posts: 105

7/30/13 11:41:42 AM#45
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz

Competition over mobs and spawns are good for mmos. [mod edit]

[mod edit]

For every griefer there were thousands that did not grief people in EQ.. I liked the people that were polite.. The people that waited for groups to open and waited for their turn and asked who was camping what..etc etc. The guilds that worked out schedules with other guilds and used calendars to do so.. I liked how it made you feel part of that world that you shared with others.. More so than griefers it fostered cooperation, politeness, friendship (as in meeting new people), communication, thoughtfulness.. etc etc etc.. You take for granted the positive aspects of there not being instances and you only focus on the negatives... a few people and guilds griefed others.. While mostly people were polite because there were not instances to hide in or instance hop to...

  Kiyoris

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/13
Posts: 356

7/30/13 11:41:46 AM#46
Originally posted by Shadowguy64

An instance provides a brief group centric activity that allows players to enjoy advance boss battles, story, and loot without the negatives of being griefed by other groups. It's temporary.

Good synopsis. You should be a designer.

  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 576

7/30/13 11:56:24 AM#47
Originally posted by Sengi
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

Instancing doesn't have to be as extensive as in WoW and clones. It can be done better, like with dungeons being open and only boss rooms being instanced / phased.

These problems are not caused by the world bosses in the first place, but by the way the loot and the respawning work. In GW2 the world bosses scale and everyone who participated in the fight gets his own loot. I don't want to say that the bosses in GW2 don't have their own flaws, especially that the fight always ends with a big zerg. But I believe they can be done right. For example by introducing battle tactics for large groups like a shield wall.

This^.

Anet instanced everything in GW1, they isolated the players so they didn't have to deal with griefers/ninja-looters or quest objective camping, for GW2 they went the other way around and removed the limitation that caused these problems and stopped isolating the players from each others. The end result is a more co-operative playerbase. And you know what, other MMOs are following now (or even did it before GW2 announced their systems?). Both old and new.

As for the OP. I don't like instances in MMOs. First, I hate waiting in front of a loading screen , second I think they affect the gameworld immersion negatively. Getting inside an instanced dungeon or raid just feel like you are playing a lobby-game and this is the next "mini-game" to do on the list. I personally feel that MMORPG should be virtual world, not content checklists.

 

  Justsomenoob

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 869

7/30/13 11:57:35 AM#48

Because i want to go places and have people be there with stuff going on.

 

I don't want to assemble a group, clear the place from start to finish,then leave.

  Shadowguy64

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/13
Posts: 880

7/30/13 11:59:18 AM#49
Originally posted by azarhal
Originally posted by Sengi
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

Instancing doesn't have to be as extensive as in WoW and clones. It can be done better, like with dungeons being open and only boss rooms being instanced / phased.

These problems are not caused by the world bosses in the first place, but by the way the loot and the respawning work. In GW2 the world bosses scale and everyone who participated in the fight gets his own loot. I don't want to say that the bosses in GW2 don't have their own flaws, especially that the fight always ends with a big zerg. But I believe they can be done right. For example by introducing battle tactics for large groups like a shield wall.

This^.

Anet instanced everything in GW1, they isolated the players so they didn't have to deal with griefers/ninja-looters or quest objective camping, for GW2 they went the other way around and removed the limitation that caused these problems and stopped isolating the players from each others. The end result is a more co-operative playerbase. And you know what, other MMOs are following now (or even did it before GW2 announced their systems?). Both old and new.

As for the OP. I don't like instances in MMOs. First, I hate waiting in front of a loading screen , second I think they affect the gameworld immersion negatively. Getting inside an instanced dungeon or raid just feel like you are playing a lobby-game and this is the next "mini-game" to do on the list. I personally feel that MMORPG should be virtual world, not content checklists. 

 

I remember GW2 being HEAVILY instanced...what game were you playing?

  Manakar

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/04
Posts: 105

7/30/13 12:04:17 PM#50
Originally posted by Shadowguy64

 

I remember GW2 being HEAVILY instanced...what game were you playing?

 

Maybe his only experience with MMOs is through GuildWars? Btw I hated the way group content played in GW2.. I hated the fact there was no holy trin when it came to groups.. Eww eww ewww.. And yes there were alot of instanced endgame dungeons in GW2..

  arieste

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3308

7/30/13 12:09:45 PM#51
Originally posted by Shadowguy64

I think the argument that instances break immersion is just silly. What is it...you need to have every other player in your line of site like some over protective mom?

Yes dammit.  Let's take an example:  i'm "the chosen one", being sent to a "secret hideaway" to track down a "monster that no one has been able to find".  

 

I get to this secret hideaway... unless i find 10,000 other players there, all packed so tightly that i can't can't see the walls and all talking about the things they'd like to do to my mother, i simply would not feel "immersed" in this fictional world.  I mean, what kind of secret hideaway is actually secret? mirite?  

 

Unless EQN has all 500k-1m of its players all standing next to each other in the first town of the game, it'll be simply unimmersive.  

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

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Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1816

"I shall take your position into consideration"

7/30/13 12:12:22 PM#52

I do not have any specific problem with instances...well maybe besides the fact that they divide the world, create content which is available to only a few people which does not go well with "Massively multiplayer...", decrease amount of OWPvP, etc.

Why I prefer open world dungeons is simply based on my experience with MMOs. I had much more fun in open world than in instances and I am saying this as someone playing WoW from day 1 with only several short breaks.

For me, instances are fine, but open world is more fun. Especially when there is OWPvP allowed in the game.

 

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Jadedangel1

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/25/13
Posts: 187

7/30/13 12:13:42 PM#53
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by azarhal

This^.

Anet instanced everything in GW1, they isolated the players so they didn't have to deal with griefers/ninja-looters or quest objective camping, for GW2 they went the other way around and removed the limitation that caused these problems and stopped isolating the players from each others. The end result is a more co-operative playerbase. And you know what, other MMOs are following now (or even did it before GW2 announced their systems?). Both old and new.

As for the OP. I don't like instances in MMOs. First, I hate waiting in front of a loading screen , second I think they affect the gameworld immersion negatively. Getting inside an instanced dungeon or raid just feel like you are playing a lobby-game and this is the next "mini-game" to do on the list. I personally feel that MMORPG should be virtual world, not content checklists. 

 

I remember GW2 being HEAVILY instanced...what game were you playing?

 

Thank you, I thought I was the only one on here who remembered this. It really ruined the main story quests for me, they were awful, especially when added with those cheesy cut scenes, and made me not want to play it after awhile.

  BearKnight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 448

7/30/13 12:17:46 PM#54
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

Instancing doesn't have to be as extensive as in WoW and clones. It can be done better, like with dungeons being open and only boss rooms being instanced / phased.

I disagree completely. It has to do with world permanence, and not wanting everything given to you on a silver platter. If you're camping something for 12hrs+ it isn't being forced on you. In EQ1 if you camped something for more than 3hrs it was by YOUR choice, as either an accomplishment that many others would never achieve, or for that special rare loot that only 1% of the population ever obtained. 

 

What you're talking about is one of the primary reasons EQ past POP went downhill sharply into a boring soul-less infestation of a game :(.

  User Deleted
7/30/13 12:18:05 PM#55
Originally posted by Waterlily

I really don't get this hate towards instances. MMORPG.com now has an article "What we don't want in EQnext: Instances".

I don't know who this "we" is. People who never played EQ?

The best expansions in Everquest were the heavily instanced ones.

LDON-OOW (proving grounds trials+pizza instances)-DoN-DoD (amazing expansion, also the best looking one imo)

Let alone all the raid instances, which were actually a huge improvement over the mob ganking and drama caused on the server.

GoD group instances, one of the most fun and rewarding content you could find. Ask anyone what the most fun group content was and many will say LDON, DoD, MPG trials and the freeport Badge Arena battle. All instanced.

I have no idea why some people don't want instances. If done right, they are great.

its not the instancing its the loading screens imho

as long as other people can enter it and the loading screen is hidden i dont mind

lol look at Fable 3 its not even MMORPG and it is ruined with so many loading screens and invisible walls

*edit

Tera almost did it right with the Pegasus riding system where they go through a transfer sequence in the form of "magical stargates" while the area loads without a loading screen

  Karble

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/13/09
Posts: 671

I play therefor I am

7/30/13 12:18:38 PM#56

Instances are ok for certain reasons.

A good reason would be if a game dungeon was so big that you and your group/raid could not hope to clear it in a session of 4 to 6 hours. This would make instancing a good thing, since the progress you have made in the instance can be saved similar to if you were playing a pen and paper D&D campaign.

Other that that I don't really like the idea of instances in general.

Also in the same dungeon (if it's that big), you could have 6 or 10 parties doing various parts of the dungeon content and, both competing with and assisting each other with mobs.

Also I disagree with you about which was the best expansion.

The game itself and the first 5 expansions were the best in my opinion.

There were fantastic dungeons that were huge and not instanced mostly.

The open world had several areas that were a sort of dungeon themselves in the way the factions, mob placements etc worked.

There were class specific armors that, when you clicked, would cast a free spell from your class. These were usually deep in Karnor's Castle which could be tackled with a group, but you could easily get overwhelmed from a pull...so having multiple groups around to take extra mobs was nice. 

Scars of Velious continued the excellent design and expanded with a One Time killable dragon in Sleepers Tomb. There were huge giants in Kael Drakkal to face off against, Temple of Veeshan was crazy fun. Tower of Frozen Shadows. The first access to the planes of Gods......plane of Growth and plane of Mischief. Velkitor's Labrynth......so much good content.

The Shadows of Luclin was an amazing masterpiece as well. There were many zones that required faction and several steps to be able to get to the final boss and slay them. Once done this would give you a piece of the over all key needed to get to another place which ended up in a crazy zone called Vex Thal. This was the point in the game they introduced The Bazaar and The Nexus. These allowed for players to set their char up as a vendor in the game and leave pc on all day so others could come to their char and look through bags and purchase items for whatever value you had decided was fair.

The Planes of Power....

This took tiered content and raiding very seriously. Once again following the "key" formula, they had something called flagging. To get a character into any of the higher tier zones, a player had to talk with npcs and kill bosses in the previous tier planes. It was full raiding and good fun. They introduced some things in this expansion that were also questionable like the POK with portals to everywhere. This broke part of the massiveness of the previous content and hurt part of the value of a few classes in the game. But the concept of the high end God content was impressive.

The Legacy of Ykesha

This added very unique collection of areas to the game. The fights were fun and the areas gave players from 30 to 60 something fun to do. It was also quite dangerous there as well.

Almost all of what I have listed here is what I would call.....the best of EQ

After this, the other expansions added very little in terms of game play. Sure they extended the quest, added more levels, more unlocks, more AA, instancing etc...

But I would say that instancing as a whole felt very un-mmo to me. It's almost like choosing to just be alone in a setting where you are surrounded by others who are alone as well. Very ghost town feeling there. What's the point of playing a game with thousands of players if you only want to play by yourself or with a few other people. There are multi-player games that have this built into them as a foundation.

For myself and most people I know....a zone or a non-zoned world is best. Not the instanced zone where you are all alone.

  BearKnight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 448

7/30/13 12:20:17 PM#57
Originally posted by Jadedangel1
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by azarhal

This^.

Anet instanced everything in GW1, they isolated the players so they didn't have to deal with griefers/ninja-looters or quest objective camping, for GW2 they went the other way around and removed the limitation that caused these problems and stopped isolating the players from each others. The end result is a more co-operative playerbase. And you know what, other MMOs are following now (or even did it before GW2 announced their systems?). Both old and new.

As for the OP. I don't like instances in MMOs. First, I hate waiting in front of a loading screen , second I think they affect the gameworld immersion negatively. Getting inside an instanced dungeon or raid just feel like you are playing a lobby-game and this is the next "mini-game" to do on the list. I personally feel that MMORPG should be virtual world, not content checklists. 

 

I remember GW2 being HEAVILY instanced...what game were you playing?

 

Thank you, I thought I was the only one on here who remembered this. It really ruined the main story quests for me, they were awful, especially when added with those cheesy cut scenes, and made me not want to play it after awhile.

GW2 was 100% instanced, and actually are instances upon instances. It was a total mess to be honest with how absolutely everything is instanced and a "faded" instance into another one. It was pretty gross to be honest.

  TheJoda

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/10
Posts: 492

"Yes...... that's a Duck Staff of D00M!!!"

7/30/13 12:21:12 PM#58
I agree with the OP. And I want to hear train to zone in!!!

....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!

  mos0811

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 173

7/30/13 12:26:37 PM#59
Originally posted by Waterlily

I really don't get this hate towards instances. MMORPG.com now has an article "What we don't want in EQnext: Instances".

I don't know who this "we" is. People who never played EQ?

The best expansions in Everquest were the heavily instanced ones.

LDON-OOW (proving grounds trials+pizza instances)-DoN-DoD (amazing expansion, also the best looking one imo)

Let alone all the raid instances, which were actually a huge improvement over the mob ganking and drama caused on the server.

GoD group instances, one of the most fun and rewarding content you could find. Ask anyone what the most fun group content was and many will say LDON, DoD, MPG trials and the freeport Badge Arena battle. All instanced.

I have no idea why some people don't want instances. If done right, they are great.

Instances take people out of the world, and makes it feel dead; this is for either side PvP or PvE.  In a PvP game instances allow players to escape potential death.  Instancing was once a way to allow for a lot of players to be in the same place at the same time without causing too much lag.  Now days with internet upgrades instancing is a crutch that developers use to go the easy route.  I am in the no instancing camp.

  Karble

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/13/09
Posts: 671

I play therefor I am

7/30/13 12:30:01 PM#60
Originally posted by Karble

Instances are ok for certain reasons.

A good reason would be if a game dungeon was so big that you and your group/raid could not hope to clear it in a session of 4 to 6 hours. This would make instancing a good thing, since the progress you have made in the instance can be saved similar to if you were playing a pen and paper D&D campaign.

Other that that I don't really like the idea of instances in general.

Also in the same dungeon (if it's that big), you could have 6 or 10 parties doing various parts of the dungeon content and, both competing with and assisting each other with mobs.

Also I disagree with you about which was the best expansion.

The game itself and the first 5 expansions were the best in my opinion.

There were fantastic dungeons that were huge and not instanced mostly.

The open world had several areas that were a sort of dungeon themselves in the way the factions, mob placements etc worked.

There were class specific armors that, when you clicked, would cast a free spell from your class. These were usually deep in Karnor's Castle which could be tackled with a group, but you could easily get overwhelmed from a pull...so having multiple groups around to take extra mobs was nice. 

Scars of Velious continued the excellent design and expanded with a One Time killable dragon in Sleepers Tomb. There were huge giants in Kael Drakkal to face off against, Temple of Veeshan was crazy fun. Tower of Frozen Shadows. The first access to the planes of Gods......plane of Growth and plane of Mischief. Velkitor's Labrynth......so much good content.

The Shadows of Luclin was an amazing masterpiece as well. There were many zones that required faction and several steps to be able to get to the final boss and slay them. Once done this would give you a piece of the over all key needed to get to another place which ended up in a crazy zone called Vex Thal. This was the point in the game they introduced The Bazaar and The Nexus. These allowed for players to set their char up as a vendor in the game and leave pc on all day so others could come to their char and look through bags and purchase items for whatever value you had decided was fair.

The Planes of Power....

This took tiered content and raiding very seriously. Once again following the "key" formula, they had something called flagging. To get a character into any of the higher tier zones, a player had to talk with npcs and kill bosses in the previous tier planes. It was full raiding and good fun. They introduced some things in this expansion that were also questionable like the POK with portals to everywhere. This broke part of the massiveness of the previous content and hurt part of the value of a few classes in the game. But the concept of the high end God content was impressive.

The Legacy of Ykesha

This added very unique collection of areas to the game. The fights were fun and the areas gave players from 30 to 60 something fun to do. It was also quite dangerous there as well.

Almost all of what I have listed here is what I would call.....the best of EQ

After this, the other expansions added very little in terms of game play. Sure they extended the quest, added more levels, more unlocks, more AA, instancing etc...

But I would say that instancing as a whole felt very un-mmo to me. It's almost like choosing to just be alone in a setting where you are surrounded by others who are alone as well. Very ghost town feeling there. What's the point of playing a game with thousands of players if you only want to play by yourself or with a few other people. There are multi-player games that have this built into them as a foundation.

For myself and most people I know....a zone or a non-zoned world is best. Not the instanced zone where you are all alone.

Sorry about the text wall. didn't realize until after I hit send....lol.

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