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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dispelling the myths about full PVP

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  Dengar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 34

All is fair in love, war, and pokemon battles.

7/27/13 6:51:46 PM#121

Been playing MMOs for... god, 14 years now I think, and this is pretty much what I've experienced (I don't agree with all of it, especially discounting DF). To the "PvE" camp, there ARE 100% FFA PvP games- they're called "shooters." You want compromise? Try playing Darkfall. The AI is (usually) much more intelligent than most "AAA" games, and doesn't use gimmicks (i.e. "You need to tank him in the lava to debuff him or he'll enrage after 2 minutes"). Fighting the red dragon that roams over much of a certain island was one of the coolest experience I've had in gaming, and probably the BEST dragon kill ever (and trust me, I've killed a lot of dragons). 

Why is it in Darkfall? It's a compromise. It's got PvE and PvP. It's got safe zones and war zones. Hell, even in the old DF other PLAYERS (not people watchign the game from the sidelines) complained that too much of the community was hiding in cities or PvEing high end mobs. Killing those high end mobs was high risk, high reward, and a ton of fun, even if/when you got killed, sometimes by other players. 

PvPers have to compromise all the time. We play WoW. We play TOR. Hell, some of us play Animal Crossing (GUILTY!). But PvErs? Most of you see full PvP and you don't even give it a try, even if it's free. Hardcore PvP may be a smaller niche, but I think we've proven to be more compromising and loyal to our games than the PvE crew. After all, if PvE sandboxes like Istaria/Horizons, Ryzom, and Mabinogi aren't enough for you (the first two of which have been practically abandoned by players) after a few months, why would a new one be any more successful?

denngar Xfire Miniprofile
  Ramanadjinn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1312

7/27/13 6:57:16 PM#122
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

In regards to losing making one a better player:

In most games it is true that nothing, or very little, can be learned from a higher level character or someone more advanced in the game just coming along and popping you.

But that isn't true for all games. 

Some games offer opportunities for newer characters, characters outfitted for non-combat activities, or solo characters, etc.. to skillfully avoid those that seek them while still accomplishing their activities they are wishing to do.  In Eve Online for example, one can get a lot accomplished in dangerous territory.  

But in Eve one will most likely go through a lot of trial and error learning how to watch their scanner properly and read and interpret what is going on around them properly to avoid getting killed by those more numerous, advanced in skill, or well equipped than they.

It doesn't apply to every game, but it isn't necessarily universally true that a lowbie getting ganked by a highbie is something that can't be helped, and that there is nothing for the lowbie to learn from it.  Eve is one example, the possibilities for game design are limitless.

Whoa, whoa... Eve far from being a poster boy of game design. It is practically plagued by design decisions that make little sense, and if they wanted to correct those, they would have to "pull a SOE" (=drastically change the game thus alienating the established playerbase). CCP has acknowledged this by saying along the lines of "There are some design decisions we are simply stuck with."

The directional scanner, in particular, is a nonsensical invention which, in any game released today, would update itself automatically and perhaps even give sound ques when combat probes are in the vicinity. It is poor UI design to force the player to manually update the scanner every few seconds. It is also one of those things that are needlessly complicated without offering any additional gameplay value.

Or maybe you meant that Eve offers many opportunities for improvement, which I could agree with: Eve definitely has a lot of room for improvement. And if you didn't mean that, I don't know what the hell you were talking about.

 

I can't disagree that Eve has many things which could be improved, i can't say you're wrong at all about any of that.  (edit: rereading my post i'm not sure where you heard "poster boy of game design")

But,

Whether Eve Online is a well-designed game or not has no bearing on my point that there are possible systems in games that can be made such that a disadvantaged player can learn from an unfavorable encounter with a more advantaged player.  This was the only point I consider of relevance to my post and the only one I would care to defend.

 

  Kuinn

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 2058

7/27/13 7:12:19 PM#123
Originally posted by Bidwood

 
2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”
  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.
 

 

A lot of people trumpet against PvP in sandbox/park games is because they want to play the game but they dont like the PvP ruleset, period. It's not about forcing anything, they just simply want to play the game in question but the ruleset is not appealing, and your OP wont change that I guarantee you that.

 

Also you just sound like you are telling people "go play some other game" and you're not really dispelling anything. Since "they" want to play these exact sandboxes but without the PvP rules this post is kinda pointless if it's aimed at them.

 

The game is not sandbox anymore if the PvP is not a constant threat there and blah blah, it does not matter, they dont care if the game is not "(internet) officially" sandbox game anymore, they just want to play it without HC PvP.

 

Anyone's opinion about what a true sandbox is or "go play something else" wont change that, these people will come to your PvP sandbox game forums and keep saying how they want to play the game without PvP, you'll just have to learn to live with it, it's what they wish and they have the right to do so.

 

@point 6. I've always been a supporter of different server types and I think it's the right way to go. If the core game mechanics are cleverly designed I dont think it neccesarily has to be so difficult to have sort of "dry" versions of the PvP game servers as PvE servers. Just make them the "easymode" servers, perhaps let NPC's drop the stuff with lesser drop rates etc etc what you normally get through PvP in the "true" servers. It should not hurt the "true" servers in any way.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2482

World > Quest Progression

7/27/13 7:20:14 PM#124
Thank you Bidwood for your opinions on PvP. They aren't anything more than opinions however, it's your take. The crux of PvP is that it gives freedom to players to affect the world around them, even each other. You are one person that I wish represented the whole PvP fanbase, but you don't.

Giving freedom to everyone means they can affect everyone. That's why it's not popular with that many and you can talk hypotheticals all you want but that's just stone-walling an argument before it even starts.
  DocBrody

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 1527

7/27/13 7:20:36 PM#125
Originally posted by Utinni

Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp?

If eve is so damn good at this why do people want another game to play, or why arent they just playing that?

I can turn the question around, Why do the PvE-ony people need to turn every game into WoW and not just play WoW or one of the gazillion triple A clones of WoW they keep getting three times a year?

I wish developers would finally start cloning EvE instead of the dreaded themepark concept with 0% immersion and total lack of realism. Silly flagging, different server types and invincible players, bah humbug.. it needs to stop, the market is flooded with this junk.

Hopefully EQ Next crashes all these silly paradigms.

  SirBalin

Warmonger

Joined: 11/22/06
Posts: 1079

7/27/13 7:24:19 PM#126
Originally posted by Bidwood

Dispelling the myths about full PVP

There are inevitable debates that pop up during the development of high-profile, triple-A MMOs.

This purpose of this thread is to dispel the myths about full PVP that grow back like weeds every time you cut them down. Hopefully this thread helps some folks see the point of view of those who are waiting patiently for a triple-A game with full PVP.

 

So what is “full” PVP? Here are some of the defining characteristics:

  • PVP is “on” throughout the entire world. (No place is 100 per cent safe, although there can be some areas with strong protection like hi-sec in EVE.)
  • It's integrated with the other mature game systems in a meaningful way -- like the economy -- where everything from crafting to territory control are designed with PVP in mind. (Integration with other well-developed systems is where a lot of the indies fall short and why we need a triple-A title.)
  • It involves risk v.s. reward in a big way. Getting the best resources means venturing into unsafe/contested territories.

I may need to expand on the defining characteristics after other folks weigh in.

 

The myths

1. You just want to grief me.

  • This is the self-centered argument of someone who was scarred for life in Ultima Online a decade ago and can’t move on. We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play
 
2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”
  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.
 
3. It’s PVP v.s. PVE and people who enjoy PVP are a niche.
  • This creates sort of a false dichotomy where you’re looking at a niche of gamers – those who only want to PVP – and ignoring the huge market of folks who want to PVP AND PVE. So the most passionate arguments are usually between those who want ONLY full PVP and those who want ONLY PVE. Both of these are arguably niche, but then again League of Legends is the most played game in the world with only PVP.
 
4. Okay - but the majority of people want PVP on their terms.
  • How many triple-A MMOs with full PVP have they even been able to try in the last 15 years? Who's to say they would find a triple-A game with full PVP distasteful? Games like Darkfall don't count, because they don't have mature systems to integrate with the PVP.
 
5. The answer is simple: Just let people flag themselves for PVP when they want to engage in it.
  • Things go wrong when you take a game designed for full PVP and let people opt in/out whenever they want. Take, for example, the risk v.s. reward characteristic. Human nature compels us to get rewards using the path that involves as little risk as possible. Even people who love risk would be stupid not to turn PVP off because it puts them at a distinct tactical disadvantage. This is like Game Geenie or any number of other hacks and it would break any game designed with full PVP.
 
6. The answer is simple: Just implement PVP and non-PVP servers.
  • You might as well have two different games, because full PVP requires a dedicated dev team to succeed. Remember, it’s not just the ability to attack people. It’s the integration of PVP with other game systems and risk v.s. reward. While a game with dedicated full-service dev teams for each server type would be great for players, it could also hurt publishers’ return on investment.
 
7. Look around at the limited number of PVP servers on popular games. This is proof that the market for open-world PVP games is niche.
  • The only thing this proves is that gamers don’t like a server where a core game mechanic has been merely “turned on” as an afterthought to the game’s design. The PVP is often meaningless in these games because it isn’t “full” PVP and is essentially in its own vaccuum.

 

Okay, so that’s what I was able to come up with so far. I’ll probably refine this and come up with a “v 2.0” after all of the arguments are made.

Hope it is full pvp...but carebears love to ruin games with their loud qq in the forums.

Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"

  DocBrody

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 1527

7/27/13 7:29:30 PM#127
Originally posted by SirBalin
Originally posted by Bidwood

Dispelling the myths about full PVP

 

Okay, so that’s what I was able to come up with so far. I’ll probably refine this and come up with a “v 2.0” after all of the arguments are made.

Hope it is full pvp...but carebears love to ruin games with their loud qq in the forums.

so true. PvPvE players might kill players AND NPC, but PvE-only players kill games. Their victim list is long and gruesome.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2482

World > Quest Progression

7/27/13 7:57:13 PM#128
SirBalin

On the flip side usually PvE content in PvP games is horrible. I think that's why it's true that you can't have PvP taken out of PvP centered MMOs. There's not enough content left.

Puffer Fish may be fine with that and don't care if there is anything for Carebears. Fair enough, just stop trying to convince PvEers that PvP is "better", "hardcore", "tougher", etc. It's not and though I want everyone to enjoy the type of game they like, I don't assume that everyone needs to play like me in order to "do it right".
  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

7/27/13 8:05:32 PM#129
Originally posted by Dengar

You want compromise? Try playing Darkfall.

I don't know about UW but Darkfall original was the shittiest buggiest macro-filled piece of crap MMORPG with a sub fee that I have ever played. That game had a wagonload full of issues before the subject of "FFA PvP" ever came to the table.

Originally posted by DocBrody

I can turn the question around, Why do the PvE-ony people need to turn every game into WoW and not just play WoW or one of the gazillion triple A clones of WoW they keep getting three times a year?

Most people are playing WoW, actually. It has the highest amount of players in it.

There are also tons of people who do not play WoW.

There are many people (myself included) who want Vanilla WoW, not modern WoW.

I honestly don't know many PvEers actually want modern games to mimick WoW. Source?

I wish developers would finally start cloning EvE.

Personally, I wish developers would start cloning SWG.

 

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  Beatnik59

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2235

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

7/27/13 8:10:52 PM#130
Originally posted by SirBalin

Hope it is full pvp...but carebears love to ruin games with their loud qq in the forums.

I hate getting ganked.  I hate the whole culture surrounding PvP bragging rights.  I find most PvPers lack imagination, have no tolerance for anyone or anything that doesn't see things exactly their way, and look at PvP as a kind of way to force people to respect them, though they hardly do anything respectable.

 

But despite all of that...

 

I'd be willing to play in an open-world, PvP game.  I'd be willing to subject myself to ganks from time to time.  I would, because I understand that while I personally don't find PvP and ganking appealing, they are probably appealing to someone.  Who am I to say they can't have what they like?

 

Because I know the feeling.  I play these games to RP.  Most of what I do is chat in character, set up narrative plots, develop storylines, etc.  And ever since 2003, I've been told that I don't deserve a game that fosters RP.  I've been told that the "majority" hates RP, has no use for RP, hates the entire culture of RP as elitist, and look at RPers as people who want to force their game on the unwilling folks who just want to push a toon through a quest chain.

 

You PvPers think you are the only ones who've been told that you have no right to enjoy the things you like?  Everybody, I mean everybody who truly loves these games has, at one point or another, had their fun curtailed or made harder because of the industry's desire to "not displease anybody."  And as a result?  We have games that don't please anybody...at least not for very long.

 

Now my opinion is this, so take it for what you will.  If any of us--any of us--are going to have the opportunity to play anything more interesting than WoW ever again, we are going to have to start accommodating each other's preferences.  And when I mean accommodate, I don't mean watering systems down.  I think you PvPers have enough of the watered down PvP games that they've given you, just like I'm sick of all the watered down roleplay environments I've been given.

 

It means putting up with things we don't understand or like, so we can get the things we do like.

 

It means getting ganked every now and then, so we can get the economic game we want.  It means getting mugged out in the field every now and then, so we can get the kind of RP and storytelling we want.  It means getting inconvenienced every now and then, so we can get the kind of fun we aren't getting in the mainstream MMOs.

 

But this is a two way street...

 

PvPers, what are you going to put up with that you don't necessarily understand or like, so you can get your FFA PvP?

 

Are you going to RP?  Are you going to take things like naming and IC/OOC protocols seriously?  If you kill a priest or a beggar, are you willing to RP some sort of "bad spiritual mojo" that the mechanics cannot necessarily duplicate?  If not, you haven't given the RPers any cause to buy into FFA PvP.

 

Are you alright in having career crafters be the economic power players they ought to be?  Are you going to participate in commerce outside of your accounts and your guild?  If not, and you want to make your clan self-sufficient and accountable to nobody, you haven't given merchants any incentive to buy into FFA PvP.

 

Are you alright in letting the wedding go unmolested?  Or are you going to break in and kill everyone, simply because the mechanics give you the ability to do so?  For the "lolz," more than any IC reason, most likely.

 

I understand why you need FFA PvP, and I understand why the consensual PvP isn't going to work for you.  I get it, and frankly, if I had a damn fine game that gave me the things I want, I wouldn't care about the FFA PvP.  But you are asking players a lot...a whole lot...when you ask them to sumbit to ganks.  They ought to have a lot done for them in return.

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  lafaiel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/07/05
Posts: 96

7/27/13 8:32:58 PM#131
Originally posted by DocBrody
Originally posted by Utinni

Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp?

If eve is so damn good at this why do people want another game to play, or why arent they just playing that?

I can turn the question around, Why do the PvE-ony people need to turn every game into WoW and not just play WoW or one of the gazillion triple A clones of WoW they keep getting three times a year?

I wish developers would finally start cloning EvE instead of the dreaded themepark concept with 0% immersion and total lack of realism. Silly flagging, different server types and invincible players, bah humbug.. it needs to stop, the market is flooded with this junk.

Hopefully EQ Next crashes all these silly paradigms.

There is a reason why no one can really clone EVE, big developers want mass appeal, they need to pay back thier investors fast so they market the game as soemthing for everyone to get as many people they can to play.. then the game tanks. They try to mix pvp and progression making things very unbalanced which is normally a class rock/paper/scissors game class wise or who has better gear in similar class situations.

 

   The reason why EVE has defied the odds of every mmo out there and has grown for the last 10 years is simple, they have never tried to sugar coat what that game is about, I once put in a ticket about a guy being an asshat for the hell of it, a gm told me "you know, this is eve, griefing is a valid game mechanic, maybe you should pay him back in kind"

Back when I played it even the pirates that killed you doing your missions weren't asshats, they were actually pretty nice and said hey, this is a dangerous area, you should be careful next time.  I think it was EVE's 4 hour tutorial at the time that weened out the "casual griefers" as someone called them.   EVE is a very harsh game, even for griefers because if they really piss you off you have a lot of tools at your disposal to ruin thier day.

 

   I don't think modern FFA mmo's would be able to match EVE's community, gaming and the people that play it have changed to much to facilitate the cordiality that took the sting out of harsh pvp making people not want to do it.

  mech4221

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/13
Posts: 33

7/27/13 8:39:10 PM#132

 

About myth #2 if I hear of a developer creating a game, why wouldn't I tell them what I'd like, and what I'd spend money on...

Wouldn't you do the same?

 

Actually, what I'd really like to know is what IS a good PVP MMORPG?  Warhammer, Aion, Darkfall (2), hell - even GW2 (3 pvp systems?!?) never seem to get the nod. All I ever hear about it UO and DaOC?

PVP seems to get a lot more love and dev time then crafting (my fav) or roleplaying... and your always seeing stuff being 'balanced' in patch notes (which never seems to work ?  they 'balance' it again next patch...)

So what exactly would a 'good' pvp game be like? what would be different ?  Are PVP systems really worse then they were 10+ years ago ?  I'm really curious here - I'd hope that if crafting got half the attention pvp gets, we'd have some really awesome crafting systems by now.

  Ehliya

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/06
Posts: 189

7/27/13 8:45:27 PM#133

While I do enjoy PVP and think EQN should have it, I also think it cannot simply be "open world full loot."  

The OP is a classic of why this is.  The demand is couched in terms that drip with hostile anticipation of noobs to gank.  New players will be treated like applicants to a sadistic college fraternity.  And concerns are dismissed since that means people just need to "toughen up."  This makes MMOs sound like one of those "scared straight" boot camps, except here it is the adolescents terrorizing the adults.

No company that wants to build a customer base is going to go for a game design where one body of customers - the "hard core PVPers" is dedicated to making the rest of the customers miserable and perhaps even to drive them from the game.

 

  olepi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 1026

7/27/13 8:50:28 PM#134
I have no problem with "full" PvP, just put it on its own server so I can choose not to play on that server.

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10886

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/27/13 8:57:15 PM#135


Originally posted by CactusJack

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by CactusJack

Originally posted by Ventlus

Originally posted by killahh after watching the WOW  vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to  do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue. no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like  gamers were even 5 years ago. no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays  cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it? /face in hands     Well i don't pvp to much i do when i want to. Have i played open world pvp games? yes and I found them tedious only reason. I'm all for facing someone 1v1 but getting ganked by someone far superior in gear/level isn't exactly the funniest thing in the world. Does that mean because many games now of day have taking certain aspects of communication away, people don't like pvp cause of this? no thats a pretty stupid statement to make, it could be perhaps some people like to get massive amount of people to clear content that is fun to them (myself). I am actually pretty good at pvp, I just don't like open world pvp where im forced into it. And i don't like unbalanced pvp games such as WoW's current state. In an MMO guildwars 1 was my favorite pvp game.    And for last part for WoW currently right now it is impossible to do every boss in the game without tactics/teamwork. They have released bosses only available to hardcore modes, so your required to do tactics. And also that reasoning on teamwork/tactics corelates to pvp is also bad. You can get some of the best raiders in the world and they could suck at pvp, and you can get some of the best pvp'ers in the world and they would have a hard time clearing the content consiestent raiders do. Just some people, like hardcore pvp others like a simpler approach to pvp. For my self make a pvp game where its balanced, im not forced to do it unless i want to and i will play it that is all  I think I have heard this close to a thousand times in game. That's probably a conservative estimate. Your first statement, in red, I would like to say..what can you do to stop this from happening or what can you do different next time? If you can put aside your anger/rage from the loss...then you are becoming a better player.    Next, the green text. Are you a good PvP'er? But you don't like open world PvP when you are FORCED into it? Um, that's just full of contridictions. 1st lesson in PvP is to know when to run. If you're good at PvP in a game, then you know that. Open world PvP means anyone can attack at anytime...if you are playing a game that has that....then it wasn't forced...it means you weren't ready. Does that make sense? If I undock in a hauler in EvE or only have an axe and pickaxe in Darkfall....that means when I go out into the world....i'm saying to myself...Be ready to find a way out.  You know what happens sometimes? I lose. It wasn't bc it was 3vs1 or whatever. I just lost. I fought back..I tried to run..I ducked and dodged...I bobbed and weaved and they still got me.  The difference is I can then get some friends and we can hunt your ass down. No one is at a disadvantage when the rule of the land is..."don't undock in anything that you aren't willing to lose".  I'm not bringing friends to help me beat you, I'm bringing them for your friends. If you don't have any, then you are going to be at a numerical disadvantage.  Every FFA PvP game i've played it has always been about the PLAYER and not his toon/ship/gear/shinys. A players attitude is what allows the PvP seed take hold, not his hand to eye coordination, class choice, nothing else. How does being killed by a player with a higher level or superior gear make someone a better player? There's no skill that can be learned to overcome the power disparity, so what exactly is happening to make the losing player a better player?

As I have stated before, the two OW PvP games I've spent the most time in are EvE and DF1. Superior gear and higher levels are easy to overcome with friends. It's why solo play isn't a great choice in those games, more so in DF. Here's the thing..skill progression in EvE in any skill is up to V. Tha'ts five. The killboards are littered with many higher sp players losing to groups of lesser skilled players bc they caught that guy napping or they planned a counter attack.  It's all BS. If a newb is walking along and I was out hunting in DF...I would attack them sometimes...just to see what they do. Some of them ran, some started typing frantically, some just stopped...you know whom I was looking for...the person that fought back.  If you are willing to fight me with less skill points and lesser gear...but gave it their all...I would reimburse you or even rez them. 
People don't have to win the fight to become better players. I remember the first time I got warp scrambled in an asteroid belt and destroyed..I was pissed. I was angry, but I thought...how did he do that? What skill governs warp disruptors? How do you fit it? What are the power requirements? It made me learn the pvp side because I wanted a counter to it.
I would say that was a positive. Would you not? Look at it like this. You know not to stick your finger in a light socket because of two reasons. One, you did it as a child and it shocked the crap out of you...or Two...you tried to do it and someone smacked your hand. 
Both lessons were imprinted with pain. I don't stick my fingers in light sockets even now. It was a life lesson that has stood the test of time.
 
 



In the light socket lesson, the player would learn to not play the game. Which is fine, everyone should exercise their ability to learn and to choose.

But again, what changes in a player when they are killed by a more powerful player, or group of players? The only thing that can change is that they conform to the rules of the game. In other words, they attain a higher power level, they do not attack players that might beat them, and most of all, they do not run around alone. No other set of tactics make sense when the goal is to win. Using this set of tactics they don't have to improve their personal skills very much. Is that what makes them better players?

You've noted how you play, but not how the fairly common scenario of a new player being beaten by an older player or by groups of players makes them better players.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Bidwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  7/27/13 10:52:19 PM#136
Originally posted by Ehliya

While I do enjoy PVP and think EQN should have it, I also think it cannot simply be "open world full loot."  

The OP is a classic of why this is.  The demand is couched in terms that drip with hostile anticipation of noobs to gank.  New players will be treated like applicants to a sadistic college fraternity.  And concerns are dismissed since that means people just need to "toughen up."  This makes MMOs sound like one of those "scared straight" boot camps, except here it is the adolescents terrorizing the adults.

No company that wants to build a customer base is going to go for a game design where one body of customers - the "hard core PVPers" is dedicated to making the rest of the customers miserable and perhaps even to drive them from the game.

 

 

Who's demanding anything? I'm just dispelling myths about what myself and others like me want in a future MMO. The text in yellow is myth #1 in action:

 

1. You just want to grief me.

  • This is the self-centered argument of someone who was scarred for life in Ultima Online a decade ago and can’t move on. We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play

 

Originally posted by SirBalin

Hope it is full pvp...but carebears love to ruin games with their loud qq in the forums.


Originally posted by DocBrody

Originally posted by SirBalin
Originally posted by Bidwood

Dispelling the myths about full PVP

 

Okay, so that’s what I was able to come up with so far. I’ll probably refine this and come up with a “v 2.0” after all of the arguments are made.

Hope it is full pvp...but carebears love to ruin games with their loud qq in the forums.

so true. PvPvE players might kill players AND NPC, but PvE-only players kill games. Their victim list is long and gruesome.

 

I love you guys. I think it's really a vocal minority of gamers who read this thread and are unwilling to see it for what it is: What a group of gamers want from a future game - not what they want to impose on the rest of the world.

 

I don't care if 90 per cent of triple-A MMOs are designed for someone else. I want some that are designed for me and people like me. And the list of myths are here to stop people from constantly regurgitating the same reasons why no one should give us the time of day: "You're just a griefer", "you're just a minority market", "the solution is simple: just let people flag when they want PVP or make a PVP server". These responses totally misunderstand what kind of game we're hoping for. So...  keep quoting "dispelling the myths" whenever people try to use them at you.

 

Edit: SOME of the responses, including ones I don't agree with, have been polite and well reasoned. Others have been really hostile and perhaps trolling. For the legit ones, sorry I haven't responded but this thread really took off and I am having a hard time keeping up.

 

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

7/27/13 10:56:06 PM#137
Originally posted by Ehliya

The OP is a classic of why this is.  The demand is couched in terms that drip with hostile anticipation of noobs to gank.  New players will be treated like applicants to a sadistic college fraternity.  And concerns are dismissed since that means people just need to "toughen up."  This makes MMOs sound like one of those "scared straight" boot camps, except here it is the adolescents terrorizing the adults.

So eloquently put...

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  CactusJack

Novice Member

Joined: 9/11/10
Posts: 400

Facta, non verba.

7/27/13 11:04:16 PM#138
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by CactusJack

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by CactusJack

Originally posted by Ventlus

Originally posted by killahh after watching the WOW  vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to  do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue. no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like  gamers were even 5 years ago. no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays  cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it? /face in hands     Well i don't pvp to much i do when i want to. Have i played open world pvp games? yes and I found them tedious only reason. I'm all for facing someone 1v1 but getting ganked by someone far superior in gear/level isn't exactly the funniest thing in the world. Does that mean because many games now of day have taking certain aspects of communication away, people don't like pvp cause of this? no thats a pretty stupid statement to make, it could be perhaps some people like to get massive amount of people to clear content that is fun to them (myself). I am actually pretty good at pvp, I just don't like open world pvp where im forced into it. And i don't like unbalanced pvp games such as WoW's current state. In an MMO guildwars 1 was my favorite pvp game.    And for last part for WoW currently right now it is impossible to do every boss in the game without tactics/teamwork. They have released bosses only available to hardcore modes, so your required to do tactics. And also that reasoning on teamwork/tactics corelates to pvp is also bad. You can get some of the best raiders in the world and they could suck at pvp, and you can get some of the best pvp'ers in the world and they would have a hard time clearing the content consiestent raiders do. Just some people, like hardcore pvp others like a simpler approach to pvp. For my self make a pvp game where its balanced, im not forced to do it unless i want to and i will play it that is all  I think I have heard this close to a thousand times in game. That's probably a conservative estimate. Your first statement, in red, I would like to say..what can you do to stop this from happening or what can you do different next time? If you can put aside your anger/rage from the loss...then you are becoming a better player.    Next, the green text. Are you a good PvP'er? But you don't like open world PvP when you are FORCED into it? Um, that's just full of contridictions. 1st lesson in PvP is to know when to run. If you're good at PvP in a game, then you know that. Open world PvP means anyone can attack at anytime...if you are playing a game that has that....then it wasn't forced...it means you weren't ready. Does that make sense? If I undock in a hauler in EvE or only have an axe and pickaxe in Darkfall....that means when I go out into the world....i'm saying to myself...Be ready to find a way out.  You know what happens sometimes? I lose. It wasn't bc it was 3vs1 or whatever. I just lost. I fought back..I tried to run..I ducked and dodged...I bobbed and weaved and they still got me.  The difference is I can then get some friends and we can hunt your ass down. No one is at a disadvantage when the rule of the land is..."don't undock in anything that you aren't willing to lose".  I'm not bringing friends to help me beat you, I'm bringing them for your friends. If you don't have any, then you are going to be at a numerical disadvantage.  Every FFA PvP game i've played it has always been about the PLAYER and not his toon/ship/gear/shinys. A players attitude is what allows the PvP seed take hold, not his hand to eye coordination, class choice, nothing else. How does being killed by a player with a higher level or superior gear make someone a better player? There's no skill that can be learned to overcome the power disparity, so what exactly is happening to make the losing player a better player?

As I have stated before, the two OW PvP games I've spent the most time in are EvE and DF1. Superior gear and higher levels are easy to overcome with friends. It's why solo play isn't a great choice in those games, more so in DF. Here's the thing..skill progression in EvE in any skill is up to V. Tha'ts five. The killboards are littered with many higher sp players losing to groups of lesser skilled players bc they caught that guy napping or they planned a counter attack.  It's all BS. If a newb is walking along and I was out hunting in DF...I would attack them sometimes...just to see what they do. Some of them ran, some started typing frantically, some just stopped...you know whom I was looking for...the person that fought back.  If you are willing to fight me with less skill points and lesser gear...but gave it their all...I would reimburse you or even rez them. 
People don't have to win the fight to become better players. I remember the first time I got warp scrambled in an asteroid belt and destroyed..I was pissed. I was angry, but I thought...how did he do that? What skill governs warp disruptors? How do you fit it? What are the power requirements? It made me learn the pvp side because I wanted a counter to it.
I would say that was a positive. Would you not? Look at it like this. You know not to stick your finger in a light socket because of two reasons. One, you did it as a child and it shocked the crap out of you...or Two...you tried to do it and someone smacked your hand. 
Both lessons were imprinted with pain. I don't stick my fingers in light sockets even now. It was a life lesson that has stood the test of time.
 
 


In the light socket lesson, the player would learn to not play the game. Which is fine, everyone should exercise their ability to learn and to choose.

But again, what changes in a player when they are killed by a more powerful player, or group of players? The only thing that can change is that they conform to the rules of the game. In other words, they attain a higher power level, they do not attack players that might beat them, and most of all, they do not run around alone. No other set of tactics make sense when the goal is to win. Using this set of tactics they don't have to improve their personal skills very much. Is that what makes them better players?

You've noted how you play, but not how the fairly common scenario of a new player being beaten by an older player or by groups of players makes them better players.

 

I don't know if I can make it anymore clear. I play FFA PvP games because the game GIVES ME the MECHANIC to seek my own justice. Would you like another example? I was flying through Minmatar space when a buddy of mine says there's a guy that jumped him low sec a few days ago in local.

I stop what I'm doing, load a domi with 6 LG Smartbombs and go off to meet him. We follow this dude out of the station to the gate...he jumps/we jump. As soon as he shows up, my buddy starts warp scram'ing him..but he's in a t1 frig and the guy is in a HAC (t2 cruiser). The guy starts talking smack in local, when I warp to them and start jacking him up with smartbombs...needless to say he wasn't happy.

My buddy scoops up all the goods, the guy is crying a river and i'm laughing bc I have a domi BPO and can print domi's out like bunny rabbits.

The point being...PvP is a tool. It's a mindset. If a player looks at it like it's only for ganking/horrible/mean activity..they shouldn't play that game. 

As I've grown as a player...helping noobs becomes an intergral part of the long term growth of any game. I will say that DF1 was a bug ridden, macro using, bloodwall enhanced lunatics. I personally left DF not because of any of that stuff. I left bc of the combat. The meta game of creating alts to empty out other clanbanks...logging into their vent/TS channels to spy on them before a war....same stuff goes on in EvE is what makes it great.

My play I feel is reflective of people that have been playing PvP games for a long time. If I was a 16 y/o that would teabag your corpse in BF3 after killing you...I would imagine that I would shit talk in local or dance around after I killed you in DF. I wouldn't help you, I would ridicule you and tell you how much you suck. 

That type of behavior isn't what makes the game. Pick yourself and learn from it. I have been beaten many times by those type of players. Did I rage quit and type in caps that they should burn in hell? Nope, I said..."hey thanks for the ass beating...good fight." Or.."next time I'll bring something that doesn't have a mining laser mounted on it."

Then again..maybe that's just me. I was killed many times as a newb EvE player by much more experienced PvP'ers and they either were indifferent or helpful. A lot of the elder players either didn't give a shit enough about killing you..or they would help you. 

I guess to directly respond to your question is...learning how to lose takes practice. I didn't learn what the difference between falloff and optimal range in one pvp encounter. It took me getting my ass kicked a bit, plus asking questions and actively seeking out ways to improve my skill as a PLAYER not what my in game skills or whatever.

Once I wrapped my head around that, I never undocked the same way again.

Playing: Rust and Battlefield 4
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: The Repopulation

  Ehliya

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/06
Posts: 189

7/27/13 11:18:56 PM#139
I love you guys. I think it's really a vocal minority of gamers who read this thread and are unwilling to see it for what it is: What a group of gamers want from a future game - not what they want to impose on the rest of the world.

 

I don't care if 90 per cent of triple-A MMOs are designed for someone else. I want some that are designed for me and people like me. And the list of myths are here to stop people from constantly regurgitating the same reasons why no one should give us the time of day: "You're just a griefer", "you're just a minority market", "the solution is simple: just let people flag when they want PVP or make a PVP server". These responses totally misunderstand what kind of game we're hoping for. So...  keep quoting "dispelling the myths" whenever people try to use them at you.

 

Not sure who is a minority in terms of numbers.  I think it is more complex than that.  Many people enjoy PVP - or would enjoy it if it was properly implemented - but don't want to see it overwhelming the rest of the game.  The "hard core" have a very specific definition of "real" PVP and that is open-world, full loot, preferably with the ability to send taunts and tells to the opponents/victims.

This "hard core PVP" playstyle really works best in the FPS style games like Counterstrike.  Those games are 100 percent about shooting someone in the face.  But an MMORPG has people playing for all sorts of reasons.  And whether the "hard core" consider those to be "carebear" reasons or not, they are legitimate for those players - it is what they enjoy (e.g. crafting, roleplay events, questing).  Many roleplayers in fact welcome appropriate PVP since real roleplay is tough without it.  What is "appropriate" is where the sides start to divide.  Those are the decisions the game designers need to make.

But here is the crux of it.  Unlike all the other playstyles, e.g. crafting, open world PVP is unique in that it IS "imposed."   And for a significant part of the "hard core" PVP community that is what is most important.  They get to exert power and control over others.  It has to be handled differently for that reason.

Note:  I have experienced a lot of PVP in MMO, all the way back to pre-Trammel UO and through two years of Shadowbane.  I once thought like the "hard core" did.  But over time I came to see how placing priority on one type of activity - PVP - tended to make game worlds less interesting and game populations less diverse.  So yes to PVP, but it needs to be placed in a context where it does not overwhelm the rest of the game.  

An EVE-style hybrid sounds good to me.  If they make the world as vast as they say, there should be plenty of room for everyone, including those who want the zero sec experience.

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

7/27/13 11:46:30 PM#140
Originally posted by CactusJack

I stop what I'm doing, load a domi with 6 LG Smartbombs and go off to meet him. We follow this dude out of the station to the gate...he jumps/we jump. As soon as he shows up, my buddy starts warp scram'ing him..but he's in a t1 frig and the guy is in a HAC (t2 cruiser). The guy starts talking smack in local, when I warp to them and start jacking him up with smartbombs...needless to say he wasn't happy.

My buddy scoops up all the goods, the guy is crying a river and i'm laughing bc I have a domi BPO and can print domi's out like bunny rabbits.

So basically you fight violence with violence. That's great, and that's what EVE was made for. That's the point. A lot of people have deep loathing for the entire freaking mentality you just described, from the "how dare" attitudes to this tough guy PvPer you're so cool adapting the "right attitude" for a video game. But even you, what did you use, you used a ship you could replace, you do things that are easy, you do not do what is hard. But there are those of us who are the opposite. We don't want easy. We want a fair fight, a challenge, and we're not afraid to take risks for giggles. We don't play these games because they are all about cowardly tactics by rare exception. Risk-reward, kid me not, no "remove all risk, then I'll go after the reward, maybe" is the attitude of most EVE players.

Like that other poster said, bootcamp with kids in charge. Problem is, the tool you describe only works for the likes of the guy who went after, and the likes of yourself (you're basically the same). For the rest, it doesn't work at all. It's easy to shoot at people when you have a big ship and lots of friends, but what's far more difficult to do in EVE is change mentalities.

How many nullsec alliances are NRDS?

How often can people group with other people they don't know without danger of getting screwed over somehow?

How many scams are there in EVE?

How many people will shoot at you in lowsec for giggles?

That is the result of open, uncontrolled PvP. For a lot of people, these other things matter, obviously for you they don't, but people really don't get anywhere far if they are just busy shooting at each other and never do anything else. And that's what PvEers are - they do other things. Like, you know, building shit, trying to preserve something. Those who can, do, those who can't, bully.

You can argue "it's just a video game" but then you should have stopped your whole tirade before you started patting yourself on the back about how tough you are and how you learned something.

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

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