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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dispelling the myths about full PVP

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525 posts found
  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

7/27/13 3:44:11 PM#81
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by lafaiel

 

 

Sure, pardon for stating the obvious and cliche, there are bad apples in every bunch. That  applies to this discussion in that the PVE oriented have just as many of them. Need I remind that there's a pretty large number of EQ vets that want the same systems they abused in EQ1 to gain their advantages and "grief" the rest of the populace in EQ1?

Large guilds that take over the best spots (bosses), they essentially corner the market for high end loot. Without PVP in the game (server) there's little that can be done about it (if they go with non instanced encounters here--which these players want).

Griefing comes in many forms.

Also, good points about PvE jerks, as their are plenty of them as well, but they are usually less disruptive to an individuals pve fun it is much easier to avoid them than PvPer that can follow you around, or wait in popular spots just to randomly kill. Large guilds monopolizing a camp spot usually only affects other large hardcore raiding guild, with higher % of gamers not being involved, but i see what you mean. In EQ, people would block dungeon exits so you couldn't zone out when chased by mobs, causing death and xp loss or purposely start trains when people would be afk by entrance just to kill, annoy. Gaming in general seems to attract a higher level of ass-hat than other segments of life, but pvp can bring it to a higher level, because of the direct griefing. Also, in EQ, you needed to group up, so if u had a bad rep you would find it difficult to get group.

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

7/27/13 4:17:40 PM#82
Originally posted by cheyane
I do feel sorry that no AAA game exist for full PvP but I doubt trying to convince those of us who want choice in our game will ever work. I love choice so much in my life is without it. I will never agree to PvP without choice. I am sorry because convincing more PvE players can help developers make more of those games and perhaps one that you can be happy with but many of us are entrenched in our views already and you have not convinced me.

It's no different then me wanting a Triple-A, PvE only MMO with unlimited progression and a dynamic Asheron's Call loot system.  Both of these games types will never be developed at the level of which we think they deserve to be.  The issue is the OP fails to understand this while I know I'll never get my beloved Asheron's Call 3.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Mendel

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 648

7/27/13 4:18:33 PM#83
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by DavisFlight

I am making an observation about a specific kind of PvE'er based on about 50 pages of posts from them. Whereas the people I am critiquing toss out blanket labels and pass judgements without any kind of basis. Hence the uneducated part.

At the same time, when I was playing MUDs in the 80s, with FFA PvP, or even when I was in UO Beta (again with FFA PvP) 17 years ago, you were still a kid if the age listed in your profile is correct.

I'd be careful with the word "uneducated", since many here may know more than you concerning FFA PvP and use that knowledge in their answers.

Excellently stated, sir.

 

Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  uplink4242

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 238

7/27/13 4:56:13 PM#84

Most replies sound like frustrated gibberish so far, no offense. On both sides of the debate, too. 

WHy do people actually argue about this? It's like saying you hate football and then go out in the field and complain someone hit you with the ball in the face. Debating about this why this style of gaming (full pvp) is bad because people shouldn't force you to play this way is exactly forcing others to play a game your way (with no pvp) - ironic isn't it?. Exactly what gives you entitlement to tell people they can't have PVP everywhere? If I dislike racing and FPS games (and I do) why would I care about other people playing them? I honestly don't.

Can someone please explain me why do people insist on playing something repeatedly and say they hate it? That I know, FFA PVP games aren't breaking any legal laws, are they? Rest assured, even if a few FFA PVP games are released here and there, the carebear population will still have 99.5% of the gaming industry to choose from. 

 

 

  Vidir

Novice Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 966

7/27/13 5:05:33 PM#85
Originally posted by uplink4242

Most replies sound like frustrated gibberish so far, no offense.

WHy do people actually argue about this? It's like saying you hate football and then go out in the field and complain someone hit you with the ball in the face. Debating about this why this style of gaming (full pvp) is bad because people shouldn't force you to play this way is exactly forcing others to play a game your way (with no pvp) - ironic isn't it?. Exactly what gives you entitlement to tell people they can't have PVP everywhere? If I dislike racing and FPS games (and I do) why would I care about other people playing them? I honestly don't.

Can someone please explain me why do people insist on playing something repeatedly and say they hate it? That I know, FFA PVP games aren't breaking any legal laws, are they? Rest assured, even if a few FFA PVP games are released here and there, the carebear population will still have 99.5% of the gaming industry to choose from. 

 

 

 You are totally wrong,there is not a one single game that pve'ers can play wothout the constantly whining pvp'ers mostly about why other classes are not nerfed so they can play in god-mode and whay they cant kill that poor guy who was gathering herbs in the Woods.

  fyerwall

Elite Member

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 3203

7/27/13 5:09:12 PM#86
Originally posted by uplink4242

Most replies sound like frustrated gibberish so far, no offense.

WHy do people actually argue about this? It's like saying you hate football and then go out in the field and complain someone hit you with the ball. Debating about this why this style of gaming (full pvp) is bad because people shouldn't force you to play this way is exactly forcing others to play a game your way (with no pvp). Exactly what gives you entitlement to tell people they can't have PVP everywhere? If I dislike racing games why would I care about other people playing them? 

Can someone please explain me why do people insist on playing something repeatedly and say they hate it? That I know, FFA PVP games aren't breaking any legal laws, are they?

 

 

Its not that.

Basically what it is is 2 camps saying it has to be either A or Z and cannot be anything in between.

Example;

Some PvEers want A:) No PvP What so ever.

Some PvPers want B:) FFA/OW PvP with no choice to avoid it.

And you have pretty much everyone else who would rather have both but with choice/options (PvP On/Off Switch, Server Rules, etc). These people are being told it has to be B or nothing at all. Others are saying 'A or no way"... And all this is not based on a game this has already stated it will be a specific type of game (PvP or PvE) but rather off the fact that the game does not have any set direction that is known to ANYONE on these forums. Its a lot of people throwing their weight around with so called facts/myths to prove their points. Others are here playing the part of the UN and suggesting compromises and getting shot at for doing so.

There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


  CactusJack

Novice Member

Joined: 9/11/10
Posts: 400

Facta, non verba.

7/27/13 5:15:34 PM#87

I would like to add that "flagging" for PvP was an abject failure in Pirates of the Burning Sea. Hi Sec in EvE is no more safe than anywhere else. I have lost more in hi sec than i ever did in 0.0. It seems we can never actually decide what a good PvP mechanic is. I also don't subscribe to the "1v1" or "consenting parties" argument. 

I can count on one hand how many times i had a non consential, completely random 1v1 encounter  in EvE. EvE as with any other open PvP game doesn't work like that. In DF1, it was the same. I think people that don't want PvP in their game have to ask themselves this question..."If some jack hole ganks me, what can I do about it?" 

If your response is.."I'm outta here, this isn't fair", then my next question to them would be.."how can you within the game mechanics, either prevent this from happening again or what can you do about it?" If the person is so butthurt over it, you don't have the stomach for open world PvP to start with. 

I used to teach PvP in EvE and this was the case with some new people. Gratefully, most of them could see why this wasn't the game for them. PvP for me was never about fairness. It was a means to an ends. If we were at war with you, then you knew NO MATTER where you were...you were a target. 

I didn't need your loot, I didn't need your killboard stats, I didn't need to make my e-peen bigger. I was destroying war targets. If i gate camped my entry into 0.0 and you flew in without a scout or friends...you learned not to do that anymore. It had nothing to do with feelings or personal reasons. 

I will admit to enjoying killing some peeps more than others...but I'm sure others felt the same about me.

 

In closing, if i choose to play a FFA PvP game...I know what to expect. I don't feel like I'm a superior gamer to someone that enjoys PvE only, nor do I feel bad for them when they die.  If you don't like a game, quit. It isn't a popularity contest. It's a game for goodness sake. 

Playing: Rust and Battlefield 4
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: The Repopulation

  Utinni

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/13
Posts: 358

7/27/13 5:17:51 PM#88

Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp? Most of these games are based off DnD which if I can recall noone in any campaign ive ever done was pk'd. Virtually every other genre of game now is focused on you killing other people, why insist that RPG's be the same?

Go play mobas, fps, rts, fighting game... oh wait those are all much more difficult than mmorpg pvp... coincidence? think not.

If eve is so damn good at this why do people want another game to play, or why arent they just playing that?

  uplink4242

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 238

7/27/13 5:24:21 PM#89
Originally posted by Utinni

Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp? Most of these games are based off DnD which if I can recall noone in any campaign ive ever done was pk'd. Virtually every other genre of game now is focused on you killing other people, why insist that RPG's be the same?

Go play mobas, fps, rts, fighting game... oh wait those are all much more difficult than mmorpg pvp... coincidence? think not.

If eve is so damn good at this why do people want another game to play, or why arent they just playing that?

I could make the same argument about WoW, or any other sucessful game. As long as there are people complaining in this forum, it's clearly because those games suck, otherwise they should never need to play another game in their life. ??

And why would having another mmorpg with ffa pvp affect you? Do people playing EvE make a difference in your games? I don't think so. Nobody is forcing the ideas of superiority in either kind of game, and people have the right to talk about a game they would like to have, do they not?

  Utinni

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/13
Posts: 358

7/27/13 5:34:29 PM#90
Originally posted by uplink4242
Originally posted by Utinni

Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp? Most of these games are based off DnD which if I can recall noone in any campaign ive ever done was pk'd. Virtually every other genre of game now is focused on you killing other people, why insist that RPG's be the same?

Go play mobas, fps, rts, fighting game... oh wait those are all much more difficult than mmorpg pvp... coincidence? think not.

If eve is so damn good at this why do people want another game to play, or why arent they just playing that?

I could make the same argument about WoW, or any other sucessful game. As long as there are people complaining in this forum, it's clearly because those games suck, otherwise they should never need to play another game in their life. ??

And why would having another mmorpg with ffa pvp affect you? Do people playing EvE make a difference in your games? I don't think so. Nobody is forcing the ideas of superiority in either kind of game, and people have the right to talk about a game they would like to have, do they not?

I'm speaking more to the character of the person who wants to do open FFA pvp in an MMORPG. I'd be willing to bet 90%+ of engagements in open PvP someone has a huge advantage and someone has an equally crushing disadvantage, whether it be stealth , just CC off the bat before the other person can react, or sheer number advantage(see eve). This isn't PvP. This isn't meaningful in any way. Hence why they want an MMORPG to pvp in and not the other mentioned genres, because they don't want to fight people where the odds are not stacked in their favor. I know because I was one of those people when I was 15. Now if I want to actually play against other people I do, but not in an RPG.

  uplink4242

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 238

7/27/13 5:43:48 PM#91

You realize all of those elements you described are present in any kind of arts game (especially the ones of the likes of dota, lol, WOTetc). PvP is non consensual there (you start the game up agreeing you will undertake PVP, same way as EvE for example). After that, you don't complain wether you were ganked by surprise, lost gold, or undertook an underfed fight with less numbers than the opponent team, or were caught in an unfavoured position that lead to your death along with the rest of your team. Mainly because that was your fault. 

And somehow, games like that (especially LoL, WOT) are a massive sucess and considered part of e-sports, despite all the 'unfairness' you assume in them. I wonder, is being able to survive in a world where everyone can attack eachother at all costs something players can enjoy doing? The horror.

The situation is exactly the same in a FFA PVP game. Nobody expects a fight to be 'fair' all the time, learning how to survive, quick reactiong and relying on others becomes a part of the game (that ffa pvp games don't have) and the thrill of having something in the stakes fuels people to play those. 

Your judgement is very innacurate, and that's what I was refering to (which applies to most of this thread replies by now). Contrary to popular belief, people that want a PVP enforced game aren't psychopaths - they simply want things that can't realistically be offered in a game that does not have free PVP.

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2402

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

7/27/13 5:49:36 PM#92
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.


That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1825

7/27/13 5:51:17 PM#93

So, precisely what Myths did you dispel, OP?

 

We all know what FFA PvP entails. We all understand what the design is about.

 

We don't like it.

It sucks.

 

The glorious beacon of FFA PvP.

 

EVE Online

 

Wipe out Sec, make it all null. Watch CCP bankrupt in a year. You know it, I know it, they know it.

 

FFA does not work. It allows RMT to control the game world and yes, it will be the full time MMO community, the RMT community that will run the game.

 

Sorry. That's the facts.

  Stromm

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 250

7/27/13 5:57:51 PM#94
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

My thoughts exactly.

  uplink4242

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 238

7/27/13 5:58:37 PM#95
Originally posted by free2play

So, precisely what Myths did you dispel, OP?

 

We all know what FFA PvP entails. We all understand what the design is about.

 

We don't like it.

It sucks.

 

The glorious beacon of FFA PvP.

 

EVE Online

 

Wipe out Sec, make it all null. Watch CCP bankrupt in a year. You know it, I know it, they know it.

 

FFA does not work. It allows RMT to control the game world and yes, it will be the full time MMO community, the RMT community that will run the game.

 

Sorry. That's the facts.

No, those aren't facts. That is only the oppinion of someone that doesen't even know how the game he/she uses in his/her own example works, and what the term "ffa pvp" game actually means, despite saying he does. It also offers nothing substantial to the debate. You are right, though, no myths were dispelled because your head is apparently full of them still :/

All the people that can only quote a one liner with no real evidence and expect to be taken seriously are close to cringe worthy as well :/

  Ramanadjinn

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1316

7/27/13 6:08:09 PM#96
Originally posted by free2play

So, precisely what Myths did you dispel, OP?

 

We all know what FFA PvP entails. We all understand what the design is about.

 

We don't like it.

It sucks.

 

The glorious beacon of FFA PvP.

 

EVE Online

 

Wipe out Sec, make it all null. Watch CCP bankrupt in a year. You know it, I know it, they know it.

 

You kind of back up one of his central points, do you realize you did that?

Wipe out high security in Eve, make it all null and Eve will no longer work right?

I assume you are correct, and I think there is a good chance this is a fair assessment.

But what would also happen if we got rid of NULL and all pvp in high sec?

I feel the same thing would happen, the game wouldn't really work any longer.

Whether this is all true about Eve though or not is irrelevant for the most part.

If you can understand this, or more broadly, the concept of systems integration, you will be a lot closer to understanding why he doesn't want to play the same type of game you want to play.  And perhaps from there you can understand, many of us aren't asking you to agree our favored game type is better than yours.

 

 

 

  CactusJack

Novice Member

Joined: 9/11/10
Posts: 400

Facta, non verba.

7/27/13 6:10:50 PM#97

I always thought that if a game offered me what I enjoyed more than I didn't enjoy...it was worth my time. If I sub to a game, I do some research prior. I work for my money, and I like to spend it on things I want. All of this fighting back and forth about how PvP games are for psychopaths, there's no room on the market...blah, blah. 

If you don't like a game, stop giving them money and leave. It's as if we are arguing about whether eggrolls or pizza rolls are better. Who cares, eat what you want. I don't hold to the tenet that I'm better or worse of a player or I have some delusional, psychotic mindset because I enjoy a certain type of game.

Why do we attribute real mental illness issues to gamers that like there to be risk vs actions in a virtual world? Don't play games you don't like. Why is this not clear to people? 

 

Playing: Rust and Battlefield 4
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: The Repopulation

  uplink4242

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 238

7/27/13 6:18:28 PM#98

Eve wouldn't close down if there was no highsec. Whoever thinks Hisec is the carebear EvE is sadly mistaken. The only thing it means is that there's more consequence for engaging (as there are in any other system). It also does not affect alliance/corp wars or faction warfare meaning any of those can stil engage at any time with nothing to fear.

There are thousands of daily kills in highsec around trade hubs and peripheric zones. Most suicide gank corps have close to 99% ISK efficiency (ship value destroyed or looted / value of their ship). Hisec means is that there is a consequence for engaging, it does not disallow PVP of any means, and in fact only encourages it because less people expect it and bring more shiny ships and cargo with them.

And that falls very nicely into the "FFA PVP" system. For some reason people awe in despair thinking a game with free pvp is nothing but a gank fest. Another myth.

For some reason lots of people like to complain about games other people want.  you don't like it... how about not playing?

  Stromm

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 250

7/27/13 6:23:13 PM#99
Originally posted by CactusJack

I always thought that if a game offered me what I enjoyed more than I didn't enjoy...it was worth my time. If I sub to a game, I do some research prior. I work for my money, and I like to spend it on things I want. All of this fighting back and forth about how PvP games are for psychopaths, there's no room on the market...blah, blah. 

If you don't like a game, stop giving them money and leave. It's as if we are arguing about whether eggrolls or pizza rolls are better. Who cares, eat what you want. I don't hold to the tenet that I'm better or worse of a player or I have some delusional, psychotic mindset because I enjoy a certain type of game.

Why do we attribute real mental illness issues to gamers that like there to be risk vs actions in a virtual world? Don't play games you don't like. Why is this not clear to people? 

 

Pffft! Pizza is obviously better are you some kind of crazy!? :-)

  killahh

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 455

As famous as the unknown soldier

7/27/13 6:26:09 PM#100

after watching the WOW  vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to  do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.

no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like  gamers were even 5 years ago.

no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays  cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?

/face in hands

 

 

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

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