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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dispelling the myths about full PVP

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525 posts found
  Ramanadjinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1304

7/27/13 1:05:56 PM#41
Originally posted by TribeofOne
 
except as has been pointed out before the PVP crowd can not support itself. they eat their own and when no one else shows up to BE CONTENT for you you then leave and blame the game instead of the nature of the pvp genre.

 

It has been pointed out but not proven.

Unless you misunderstand the sort of game I wish to play.  If you are talking about Darfkfall or Mortal Online that has nothing to do with my post.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3080

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/27/13 1:12:37 PM#42


Originally posted by Bidwood
We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play

You don't care so much, you posted this long propaganda post for your personal style of game play. Why did you do this?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  whisperwynd

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1365

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

7/27/13 1:13:35 PM#43
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Bidwood.

If you try to convince people who want compromises in future AAA games to change their minds and become FFA PvP preachers, you couldn't have don't it worse. Those people want to be able to enjoy those games just as much as you do, but since your OP closes any possibility of compromise to force full PvP in those games, don't expect those people to ever agree with you.

 

Was his goal to convince people to become "FFA PvP preachers?"  If it was I can't support his post.  But I was possibly mistaken that he never intended to do such a thing.

Regardless, compromise is something neither side of the fence truly wants.

People who want a well integraded PVE/PVP game (notice i did not say FFA PVP game) that relies on the PVE and PVP systems within the game and the interactions between them to function well are not willing to compromise what they consider key game design aspects just so people who do not enjoy PVP will come play the game with them.

People who will not play a game with FFA PVP are unwilling to compromise as well and just play the game as it was made.  They instead want flags,  a different sort of game design that leaves the PVP unnecessary for the game's functionality, and lots of other thigns that are very reasonable for the type of game they wish to play.

The only true compromise I see is separate games for people who want different things.

Most of us want you to have great games to play and we want to have great games to play, but in the end it is just games.  There is no reason we all have to play the same game.

I have to agree with this as it makes sense.

However, I believe most (if not all) of the "myths" proposed are those made for the red highlight. Whether or not a game of this type is even possible. Time will tell. 

The crazed monkey, feces throwing, ground-thumping antics that erupt in these forums between the two camps is sometimes funny but often quite sad, imo. 

 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2738

There... are... four... lights!

7/27/13 1:13:47 PM#44
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
 Regardless, compromise is something neither side of the fence truly wants.

If you are unbiased and follow this forum regularly, you know this isn't true.

PvE players have always, for the vast majority, been willing to share the game with PvP players through various means, including FFA PvP servers. And that specific models worked for AC1 for over 10 years, 8% (at the game's primes) of the player base was on Darktide, the remaining 92% on the PvE with optional PvP servers. Other options have also been proposed. And tot he opposite, the typical reaction of most FFA PvP proponents was "no compromise, a game has to be full PvP or not be at all".

So one side is ready to let some developer attention go to the PvP crowd, while the said crowd just wants to force everyone in its specific play style in any game they play. Who is offering compromise? Who is totalitarian? Pretty obvious.

Anyway, this discussion is pretty moot, since we won't see any FFA PvP AAA game offering only that type of gameplay anytime soon. And if some thing that EQN will be like that... well, I reserve the right to smile when comes August 2. ;-)

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Bidwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  7/27/13 1:14:57 PM#45

Hey everyone,

 

There have been some major misconceptions here.

 

This thread is not "Full PVP is right and anything less is crap." This is not me trying to convince you to participate in it or to take over and transform your existing games. This is me explaining why I want to see some games in development end up featuring full PVP. It's dispelling the myths about what people like me believe/want from future games. I'm really the only one who is an expert on what I want from a game. But I'm trying to share that with you, and am willing to revise the myths to reflect other opinions from people who are like-minded. The rest of you - your have an opportunity to read and better understand what we're asking for for ourselves - not to be mistaken for how we feel all games should be for everyone.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2524

7/27/13 1:16:16 PM#46
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Well then go play all the failing games that have no PVP.

 

Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it. They complain about how "eeevil" and "sociopathic" PvPers are, but I've never seen more self centered uneducated posts than from the "We don't want no stinkin PvP!" crowd.

 Umm, you say PvE'rs complain and namecall PvP'ers yet in the same statement call PvEr's "Self-centered and uneducated".

Does hypocrisy mean anything to you?

I am making an observation about a specific kind of PvE'er based on about 50 pages of posts from them. Whereas the people I am critiquing toss out blanket labels and pass judgements without any kind of basis. Hence the uneducated part.

 

Originally posted by cheyane

 

Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it. 

Why do you need PvE players to read it ?  You do not want PvE players because they are the ones who ask for separate servers and flags in games. So why would you want them ? 

I am an MMORPG gamer, I want people of all kinds in the games I play. And a PvP game is only good if it ties into multiple areas of the game, including PvE. DAoC had dungeons unlock and xp bonuses get handed out due to what happened in RvR. It makes for a better virtual world/simulated society.

And why should PvE players read it? So they stop parading around their flimsy uneducated blanket statements about PvE and cluttering up proper discussion on this board.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4749

7/27/13 1:16:17 PM#47
Originally posted by Bidwood

Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Bidwood

Myth # 2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”

  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.

Wow, I didn't think anyone would walk into on the first page...  just wow.

Nobody walked into anything. You tried to close any possible discussion in your OP so you "win", but you failed. If you truly believe that, why are you here posting lengthy crap instead of playing games like Darkfall:UW? Those games applied that "Myth #2", and see where they are... niche games, barely surviving with a niche player base.

What you guys don't realize is that full PvP games without any restrictions will ALWAYS be niche games. You will never get an AAA game with completely free for all PvP, ever. Why? Because an AAA company won't cater to the 5% of people who would play such a game longer than a month.

Nice tactic in your OP, almost worthy of a politician, but it doesn't work with me.

Not to mention his entire 'Myth #2' argument is blatantly flawed. It amounts to saying 'unrestricted PvP games don't force PvP on you, because you might not be paying money yet, and you can always play a different game'. What he doesn't realize is that just re-confirms the Myth he's trying to disprove. Most of us are, in fact, not playing those games because we don't want it forced on us.

It doesn't make any sense, whatsoever.

What? No. In this myth I'm talking about games you haven't even played yet that are in development. If it turns out to be full PVP, nobody's forcing you to play it when it comes out. Are you really against there being a triple-A game that isn't your cup of tea?

You're missing the point. I'm not against games that aren't my cup of tea. However, if I'm following a game I AM interested in, and they try and turn it into something it shouldn't be (i.e. if EQN turned out to be a FFA PVP game), then I wouldn't play it.

I like FFA PvP in certain games, I had fun w/ it in Wushu (if only that game wasn't so gear / cashshop based). I don't think it's a good addition to most of the MMOs we currently have.

That said, the reason we don't have many FFA PvP, is because people are doing exactly what you suggested in your 'Myth  #2' post, and not playing them. It's a niche market, until games with FFA do a better job with those mechanics.

A lot of people point to UO, which is ancient now, as the 'prime example' of FFA PVP. That game didn't even intend to have PvP when it was first conceived. FFA PvP can be a lot of fun, if it has enough systems in place to regulate itself. Otherwise they can (and do) turn into gank fests, griefer havens, which provide a safe environment for people who enjoy ruining other people's fun. Very, very few games have successfully implemented systems that punish such behavior, without hampering the ability to engage in meaningful PvP. DF:UW and Age of Wushu are two good examples of how such systems can become very flawed.

In DF:UW, while it is trying to improve, the safe zones are a subject of annoying to many of the PvPers, and there aren't many systems (last I checked) to regulate the killing of innocents.

Age of Wushu on the other hand, tries to regulate it, by adding a karma system & bounties. However, the bounties are often short, and used mostly as a method of exploiting people out of guild battles. Furthermore, the system is easily exploitable and has people glitching out of jail time to continue griefing. It also has no penalties for things such as town access to those who wish to go around murdering people.

- There's also a huge issue with most FFA PvP games when it comes to balance. Most of them aren't even close to balanced. Some people may like this, but I prefer it when games reward players for skill over how good their gear is, or whether or not they are playing the current OP class this month. If a FFA PvP game did come out with all of these things done right, I would definitely check it out. Until then I'm avoiding them like the plague.

  User Deleted
7/27/13 1:21:02 PM#48

now then.... where should i begin ? ...  what is so bad about PvP?  what is so good about PvE?? 

in MMORPGs today the AI is so bad that there is 0% fun in killing a boss monster when all they have is a large health pool

(good examples, Blade and Soul, Bless, Arche Age, Tera, Raiderz, Rift, skyrim) and the really mortifying part is that most of them are up coming MMORPGs

give me a MMORPG that has an AI that is worth killing and i will consider it

the endless debate of which is better PvP or PvE

PvP is not just Players killing other players it can be something else aswell but you PvEists refuse to see that and keep waving your "wont compete" Flags and PvPists keep waving their "let us PvP" flags

Sandbox demands some form of PvP the dull monsters cant keep the interest of players with the current AI no matter how refined the game mechanics are

and what comes to full looting in PvP i refuse to accept it either make everyone and everything equaly crappy and easy to obtain then maybe

or just treat other players as monsters when killed, and the loot system gives the rewards like from a normal monster

ITS PVP I WONT PLAY IIIIIIIT!! , ITS PVE I WONT PLAY IIIIT    the whining is endless

in the end it all comes down to ganking and griefing why PvE players are so pissy if thats not the reason, then What the Hell is?

Ganking and griefing is easily fixed with Innovative Respawning system where spawn killing is not possible(and corpse run is not required) and with a system that encourages PKKing (player killer killing)

Define griefing? Griefing is determined by the frequency of getting killed is it not? if you ressurect in the "safe zone" its the player stupidity that gets you killed right after spawning

Define Ganking? When player is ambushed by some douchebag(s) while PvEing is it not? well bohoo why are you soloing in the first place? are you saying that bullies shouldnt exsist? bullies add to the thrill of PvEing since the AI is so retarded 

the mentality of "i dont want to compete with other players"??? the fear of losing is scary indeed

GUESS WHAT? you people are already doing it in the form of Leveling Up no matter how PvE you claim to be in the end its just a race to reach the top level with top gear even though there is someone who reached that already before you

give me a game that has both and ill play it till my life ends NO DONT RECOMMEND ME SOME CRAPPY MODERN MMOs GO TO THE FUTURE AND BRING ME A MMO

im not saying im PvPer or PvEer because i think both is needed in order to have a good experience. what is good without bad? good would be just an empty word, bad gives good meaning and vice versa

and its the community of the game that should keep the gankers and griefers in check after all they have the power to do so since they are the majority

wow this turned into a rant well whatever

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  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4656

7/27/13 1:21:07 PM#49
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
 Regardless, compromise is something neither side of the fence truly wants.

If you are unbiased and follow this forum regularly, you know this isn't true.

PvE players have always, for the vast majority, been willing to share the game with PvP players through various means, including FFA PvP servers. And that specific models worked for AC1 for over 10 years, 8% (at the game's primes) of the player base was on Darktide, the remaining 92% on the PvE with optional PvP servers. Other options have also been proposed. And tot he opposite, the typical reaction of most FFA PvP proponents was "no compromise, a game has to be full PvP or not be at all".

So one side is ready to let some developer attention go to the PvP crowd, while the said crowd just wants to force everyone in its specific play style in any game they play. Who is offering compromise? Who is totalitarian? Pretty obvious.

Anyway, this discussion is pretty moot, since we won't see any FFA PvP AAA game offering only that type of gameplay anytime soon. And if some thing that EQN will be like that... well, I reserve the right to smile when comes August 2. ;-)

I'm not sure " as long as it has no effect on me " is a compromise. People are willing to let games do whatever they want on other server types but is anyone really ok with it when it does impact their play in a negative manor ?

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2738

There... are... four... lights!

7/27/13 1:21:30 PM#50
Originally posted by DavisFlight

I am making an observation about a specific kind of PvE'er based on about 50 pages of posts from them. Whereas the people I am critiquing toss out blanket labels and pass judgements without any kind of basis. Hence the uneducated part.

At the same time, when I was playing MUDs in the 80s, with FFA PvP, or even when I was in UO Beta (again with FFA PvP) 17 years ago, you were still a kid if the age listed in your profile is correct.

I'd be careful with the word "uneducated", since many here may know more than you concerning FFA PvP and use that knowledge in their answers.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Ramanadjinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1304

7/27/13 1:22:47 PM#51
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
 Regardless, compromise is something neither side of the fence truly wants.

If you are unbiased and follow this forum regularly, you know this isn't true.

 

 

It is only true with the sort of game I speak of, the integrated PVE/PVP game that does not work without both its PVE and PVP systems in place, due to either economic or other reasons.  The "magic bullet" argument being what Whisperwynd has pointed out -- Is such a game possible?

I believe it is, and if others do not that is fine, we will simply disagree on that matter.  I am not interested in attempting to prove that it is, but I would not be opposed to reading anyone's theories on why it is or is not.

I understand PVE players are willing to share games with PVP players, I play many of those games.  They will compromise on several issues.   I used to play WOW, I still play EQ2.  I would never lobby a game developer of a game like WOW to remove all the PVE servers and turn it into one big FFA PVP game.  I dont' even advocate that all games that are made from this point be FFA PVP games with no PVE servers.

What I will not stop doing, and unless I misunderstand the OP's intent, because I think what I gather he will not stop doing either, is wishing for a game in a setting I enjoy, with the type of gameplay I enjoy.  

It just so happens that this type of game that I want though, is not really compatible with what some others may want.

Where I speak of the compromise that will not happen is this and only this:

---

I will not stop wanting an integrated PVE/PVP game

Some players will not play a game with integrated PVP

 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3080

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/27/13 1:23:55 PM#52


Originally posted by Bidwood

Originally posted by lafaiel

Originally posted by cheyane


Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it.

Why do you need PvE players to read it ?  You do not want PvE players because they are the ones who ask for separate servers and flags in games. So why would you want them?


Its simple Cheyane, they don't want competitive pvp, they want easy kills, they are the definition of carebear that they love to call the pve'ers.



Sigh...  another myth in action:

1. You just want to grief me.

  • This is the self-centered argument of someone who was scarred for life in Ultima Online a decade ago and can’t move on. We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play


Why do you want us PvEers? Will you NOT attack without an upper hand? If I am 20 levels above you with much better gear, will you attack me then? What if we are evenly matched? What will you do in the game if I am not there?

Again, why post if you don't care? What is your point?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2738

There... are... four... lights!

7/27/13 1:25:14 PM#53
Originally posted by DamonVile

I'm not sure " as long as it has no effect on me " is a compromise. People are willing to let games do whatever they want on other server types but is anyone really ok with it when it does impact their play in a negative manor ?

When DAoC added Mordred (which utterly failed...), it didn't affect me even a little bit.

In the 5+ years I played AC1, whether I was on my Darktide or my PvE server characters, one never affected my ability to enjoy the other.

When I was in Felucca in UO, the players who stayed in Trammel never affected my ability to enjoy FFA PvP.

I don't see how FFA PvP servers would affect anyone's time on servers with more restrictions to players attacking each other, and vice versa.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2524

7/27/13 1:30:20 PM#54
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by DavisFlight

I am making an observation about a specific kind of PvE'er based on about 50 pages of posts from them. Whereas the people I am critiquing toss out blanket labels and pass judgements without any kind of basis. Hence the uneducated part.

At the same time, when I was playing MUDs in the 80s, with FFA PvP, or even when I was in UO Beta (again with FFA PvP) 17 years ago, you were still a kid if the age listed in your profile is correct.

I'd be careful with the word "uneducated", since many here may know more than you concerning FFA PvP and use that knowledge in their answers.

If that's the case then so far I haven't seen it from most of them. If the statement doesn't apply to you, there's no need to make a post saying "But not me!"

  Ramanadjinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1304

7/27/13 1:31:44 PM#55
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by DamonVile

I'm not sure " as long as it has no effect on me " is a compromise. People are willing to let games do whatever they want on other server types but is anyone really ok with it when it does impact their play in a negative manor ?

When DAoC added Mordred (which utterly failed...), it didn't affect me even a little bit.

In the 5+ years I played AC1, whether I was on my Darktide or my PvE server characters, one never affected my ability to enjoy the other.

When I was in Felucca in UO, the players who stayed in Trammel never affected my ability to enjoy FFA PvP.

I don't see how FFA PvP servers would affect anyone's time on servers with more restrictions to players attacking each other, and vice versa.

 

I think the biggest effect we see where a PVP server and a PVE server affect each other in those types of games is with game balancing issues.  Where PVP balance causes PVE changes.  But those issues have been largely mitigated in many games by separate skill balancing for PVE and PVP.

One could argue in some older games that started out like UO, when trammel released it did impact the PVP areas of the game.

But why bother arguing about what happened to the dinosaurs :)

 

edit: I'm not calling you wrong about anything here specifically, I do hear arguments of PVP affecting PVE balance in games like WOW along with Trammel arguments as I outlined here at times though.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17126

7/27/13 1:33:48 PM#56
Originally posted by Bidwood

Dispelling the myths about full PVP

1. You just want to grief me.

  • This is the self-centered argument of someone who was scarred for life in Ultima Online a decade ago and can’t move on. We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play

 Bad argument. Really. Scarred fro life in Ultima? Many people have never played Ultima. I agree with the idea that if there is an ffa pvp game, and you don't like ffa pvp, you shouldn't play. That game. But in truth there are people who just like to grief other players and they even say as much. It's just that the players who dont' mind ffa pvp don't care if they are griefed or have no problem griefing you back.

2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”

  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.

 I can agree with this but at the same time, if a game hasn't announced whether it has alternate rules servers then there is no reason why anti-pvp folks can't let their voice be heard.

3. It’s PVP v.s. PVE and people who enjoy PVP are a niche.

  • This creates sort of a false dichotomy where you’re looking at a niche of gamers – those who only want to PVP – and ignoring the huge market of folks who want to PVP AND PVE. So the most passionate arguments are usually between those who want ONLY full PVP and those who want ONLY PVE. Both of these are arguably niche, but then again League of Legends is the most played game in the world with only PVP.

 Ok, but maybe those who want to pvp and pve are different than those who only want pvp? Maybe people who only want pvp are a niche? What actual numbers are you making your arguments from other than "my friends and guildmates think..."  Using League of Legends? You can't make adecent argument with this. Because it's very possible that League of Legends speaks to only a certain type of gamer. Heck they might not even like mmo's. I know of only one League of legends player and he is tired of mmo's. So is this really an argument? You'd have to show that  League of Legends players are equally mmo players and I suspect that You can't. Just like me saying "well, I know of a LoL player who is tired of mmo's therefore all LoL players aren't necessarily taken with MMO's" Isn't really a valid argument. They are different things.

4. Okay - but the majority of people want PVP on their terms.

  • How many triple-A MMOs with full PVP have they even been able to try in the last 15 years? Who's to say they would find a triple-A game with full PVP distasteful? Games like Darkfall don't count, because they don't have mature systems to integrate with the PVP.

 If developers thought that making a AAA mmo with full pvp was viable they would have done it. You make it seem like these developers don't know a thing and that only players are wise enough to see the light. I seriously doubt that. Especially because many developers are players with their own preferences. Games  like Darkfall don't count? Well, then you are essentially saying that ffa pvp can work but only under specific circumstances. I personally don't see anything wrong with Darkfall's systems for the players who want that. You are essentially dissing ffa pvp for your own version of ffa pvp.

5. The answer is simple: Just let people flag themselves for PVP when they want to engage in it.

  • Things go wrong when you take a game designed for full PVP and let people opt in/out whenever they want. Take, for example, the risk v.s. reward characteristic. Human nature compels us to get rewards using the path that involves as little risk as possible. Even people who love risk would be stupid not to turn PVP off because it puts them at a distinct tactical disadvantage. This is like Game Geenie or any number of other hacks and it would break any game designed with full PVP.

 I think this part is true.

6. The answer is simple: Just implement PVP and non-PVP servers.

  • You might as well have two different games, because full PVP requires a dedicated dev team to succeed. Remember, it’s not just the ability to attack people. It’s the integration of PVP with other game systems and risk v.s. reward. While a game with dedicated full-service dev teams for each server type would be great for players, it could also hurt publishers’ return on investment.

 If it's beneficial to the game and to the company to have different servers then they will dedicated time and money to having different servers and a team to develop the game in two different directions. Bad argument. It's as bad as the argument where developers put in a system/fluff item, etc and someone says "they are wasting developer time and resources and money on this when they can be putting in something that I want" they wouldn't be doing it if they didn't have the developer resources, this stuff is planned and hopefully they have decent managment to plan well.

7. Look around at the limited number of PVP servers on popular games. This is proof that the market for open-world PVP games is niche.
  • The only thing this proves is that gamers don’t like a server where a core game mechanic has been merely “turned on” as an afterthought to the game’s design. The PVP is often meaningless in these games because it isn’t “full” PVP and is essentially in its own vaccuum.

 Possibly. But you have to still prove that all these players not playing are "not playing" because of this reason and that there is a whole slew of players out there looking for ffa pvp. But you haven't done that.

Okay, so that’s what I was able to come up with so far. I’ll probably refine this and come up with a “v 2.0” after all of the arguments are made.

Yes please come up wtih 2.0

  lafaiel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/05
Posts: 96

7/27/13 1:34:22 PM#57
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
 Regardless, compromise is something neither side of the fence truly wants.

If you are unbiased and follow this forum regularly, you know this isn't true.

 

 

It is only true with the sort of game I speak of, the integrated PVE/PVP game that does not work without both its PVE and PVP systems in place, due to either economic or other reasons.  The "magic bullet" argument being what Whisperwynd has pointed out -- Is such a game possible?

I believe it is, and if others do not that is fine, we will simply disagree on that matter.  I am not interested in attempting to prove that it is, but I would not be opposed to reading anyone's theories on why it is or is not.

I understand PVE players are willing to share games with PVP players, I play many of those games.  They will compromise on several issues.   I used to play WOW, I still play EQ2.  I would never lobby a game developer of a game like WOW to remove all the PVE servers and turn it into one big FFA PVP game.  I dont' even advocate that all games that are made from this point be FFA PVP games with no PVE servers.

What I will not stop doing, and unless I misunderstand the OP's intent, because I think what I gather he will not stop doing either, is wishing for a game in a setting I enjoy, with the type of gameplay I enjoy.  

It just so happens that this type of game that I want though, is not really compatible with what some others may want.

Where I speak of the compromise that will not happen is this and only this:

---

I will not stop wanting an integrated PVE/PVP game

Some players will not play a game with integrated PVP

 

 The problem with the integraged pvp/pve is that most "pvp'ers" like to stack the odds in thier favor, you would be surprised how many pve'ers wouldn't mind it if they had a decent chance at winning, but most games with FFA pvp like say aion for example put the pve'ers at a serious disadvantage, as long as people don't stand a chance in a fight they will not want it, its human nature.  As long as there are mechanics that can be abused to grief players there will be players that grief them with the intent to make players quit the game for the "lulz".

 

  Its one of the reasons why most big games stay away from that model completely.

  whisperwynd

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1365

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

7/27/13 1:35:10 PM#58
Originally posted by Bidwood

Hey everyone,

 

There have been some major misconceptions here.

 

This thread is not "Full PVP is right and anything less is crap." This is not me trying to convince you to participate in it or to take over and transform your existing games. This is me explaining why I want to see some games in development end up featuring full PVP. It's dispelling the myths about what people like me believe/want from future games. I'm really the only one who is an expert on what I want from a game. But I'm trying to share that with you, and am willing to revise the myths to reflect other opinions from people who are like-minded. The rest of you - your have an opportunity to read and better understand what we're asking for for ourselves - not to be mistaken for how we feel all games should be for everyone.

No offense but I don't see the logic. Are these myths not directed at PvE'rs? Why then do you say "You just want to grief me." Are you talking to other PvP'ers that feel this way? They wouldn't be very big PvP'ers then, no?

"Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.” Again, is this not a myth that is proposed BY PvE'rs? Why would a PvP'er even suggest this?

You don't really go into details of how you'd want PvP in your game, just trying to shut out those against it by attempting to debunk these arguments against FFA PvP games. 

If this wasn't your intention, then maybe you should have worded it differently. Then it wouldn't have become a PvP vs PvE thread. Reading comprehension is only half the work. Writing is the other...

  Vidir

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 966

7/27/13 1:38:14 PM#59
Only problem with pvp is that majority of players dont want it and avoid games with pvp focus.This is not going to change what ever stile of pvp you insert to the games people avoid it.
  Ramanadjinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1304

7/27/13 1:38:32 PM#60
Originally posted by lafaiel

 

 The problem with the integraged pvp/pve is that most "pvp'ers" like to stack the odds in thier favor, you would be surprised how many pve'ers wouldn't mind it if they had a decent chance at winning, but most games with FFA pvp like say aion for example put the pve'ers at a serious disadvantage, as long as people don't stand a chance in a fight they will not want it, its human nature.  As long as there are mechanics that can be abused to grief players there will be players that grief them with the intent to make players quit the game for the "lulz".

 

  Its one of the reasons why most big games stay away from that model completely.

 

It is true that some players will always try to game any system.  I would just say it is up to the developers to produce a game with solid design.  

Still, I can't say you're wrong about why the developers stay away from certain models.  It could be outside the realm of what they are capable of or what they would want to produce.

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