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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dispelling the myths about full PVP

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525 posts found

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/13
Posts: 160

9/06/13 1:56:44 PM#521
Why is this thread still going on? Its ran its course many times over.

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/09
Posts: 33

9/06/13 2:06:34 PM#522

"This is the self-centered argument of someone who was scarred for life in Ultima Online a decade ago and can’t move on. We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play"


When you start with insults I can't even take anything else serious...





Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/22/06
Posts: 1016

Greatest threat to society is letting casualties of puberty reproduce.

9/06/13 4:20:39 PM#523
Originally posted by Morrok


Originally posted by karat76
Another thing I find is a joke is FFA PvPers acting like they are hardcore and bad ass. You want to be a bad ass go to work in a maximum security prison or join the military and do a couple tours then come tell me how hardcore it is in a game. It shouldn't bother me but after being in law enforcement and the military these pixel warriors just annoy me to no end.

Well, being a "hardcore gamer" sure as hell isn't the same as being a "hardcore RL anything".
Personally, i prefer a "hardcore pixel warrior" over any "RL warrior", hardcore or not.
(I was in the military and yes, i also worked for the police though not in a law-eforcement capacity)
And if you're indeed a law-enforcement officer, i bet you do too.
Or would you really have Rambo1 taking place in your district?


You are correct I much prefer the pixel warriors over the RL wannabes. Does not mean they are not annoying. I just  find many of the pvp crowd a bit moronic bragging about being billy bad ass while you and I both know 99.9% of them would crap their pants if they had to deal with even half the crap we on our good days.


Originally posted by karat76
People are right full pvp turns many people in pyschopaths.
Pvp is ok in settings like DAoC frontier you have to keep those people gated away from rest of your community or it turns into a prison yard.
FFA PvP just leads to roving bands of griefers teabagging newbies then whining on the forums because their game is dead.

This has been my observation too, and is why i am against "full PvP" myself.


I like to PvP occassionally, but if i do i usually log into Multiplayer games (CS,BF...) because there i know that i find people wanting the same as me at the same time.
In an MMO i usually want to reach some in-game goal and PvP is just an interruption to that in most cases.



Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 226

9/06/13 4:26:16 PM#524
Originally posted by Bidwood

Dispelling the myths about full PVP

There are inevitable debates that pop up during the development of high-profile, triple-A MMOs.

This purpose of this thread is to dispel the myths about full PVP that grow back like weeds every time you cut them down. Hopefully this thread helps some folks see the point of view of those who are waiting patiently for a triple-A game with full PVP.


So what is “full” PVP? Here are some of the defining characteristics:

  • PVP is “on” throughout the entire world. (No place is 100 per cent safe, although there can be some areas with strong protection like hi-sec in EVE.)
  • It's integrated with the other mature game systems in a meaningful way -- like the economy -- where everything from crafting to territory control are designed with PVP in mind. (Integration with other well-developed systems is where a lot of the indies fall short and why we need a triple-A title.)
  • It involves risk v.s. reward in a big way. Getting the best resources means venturing into unsafe/contested territories.

I may need to expand on the defining characteristics after other folks weigh in.


The myths

1. You just want to grief me.

  • This is the self-centered argument of someone who was scarred for life in Ultima Online a decade ago and can’t move on. We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play
2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”
  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.
3. It’s PVP v.s. PVE and people who enjoy PVP are a niche.
  • This creates sort of a false dichotomy where you’re looking at a niche of gamers – those who only want to PVP – and ignoring the huge market of folks who want to PVP AND PVE. So the most passionate arguments are usually between those who want ONLY full PVP and those who want ONLY PVE. Both of these are arguably niche, but then again League of Legends is the most played game in the world with only PVP.
4. Okay - but the majority of people want PVP on their terms.
  • How many triple-A MMOs with full PVP have they even been able to try in the last 15 years? Who's to say they would find a triple-A game with full PVP distasteful? Games like Darkfall don't count, because they don't have mature systems to integrate with the PVP.
5. The answer is simple: Just let people flag themselves for PVP when they want to engage in it.
  • Things go wrong when you take a game designed for full PVP and let people opt in/out whenever they want. Take, for example, the risk v.s. reward characteristic. Human nature compels us to get rewards using the path that involves as little risk as possible. Even people who love risk would be stupid not to turn PVP off because it puts them at a distinct tactical disadvantage. This is like Game Geenie or any number of other hacks and it would break any game designed with full PVP.
6. The answer is simple: Just implement PVP and non-PVP servers.
  • You might as well have two different games, because full PVP requires a dedicated dev team to succeed. Remember, it’s not just the ability to attack people. It’s the integration of PVP with other game systems and risk v.s. reward. While a game with dedicated full-service dev teams for each server type would be great for players, it could also hurt publishers’ return on investment.
7. Look around at the limited number of PVP servers on popular games. This is proof that the market for open-world PVP games is niche.
  • The only thing this proves is that gamers don’t like a server where a core game mechanic has been merely “turned on” as an afterthought to the game’s design. The PVP is often meaningless in these games because it isn’t “full” PVP and is essentially in its own vaccuum.


Okay, so that’s what I was able to come up with so far. I’ll probably refine this and come up with a “v 2.0” after all of the arguments are made.

Here's a deal... I'll let you openly gank, PK, corpse camp and any of the other nasty crap that most "I love PVP!" gamers do (check Eve for best example) IF, and only IF you guys post/play/log on with visible real names and addresses! Deal? Thought not! :(

No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!

...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!


Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2161

9/06/13 11:37:53 PM#525
Originally posted by Morrok


Originally posted by Holophonist
If people can criticize OW pvp and ow pvper's then ow pvper's can criticize themeparks and "carebears."

Sure, but either put forth something tangible instead of merely an opinion, or open a different thread for rants.
This thread, from how i read it, isn't about themeparks, it's not even pro-or-contra PvP in general.
Neither has it anything to do with "carebears" but with valid reasons of players to reject "full PvP".
The difference between the "Pro full PvP" and "contra full PvP" crowds in this thread has been so far that the contra side has stated reasons why full PvP, despite the OP's attemt to "dispell myths", doesn't work.
Much less in a major title.


While at the same time, the "pro full PvP" advocates have either left it at "open PvP is great and can do so much for a game" without responding to concerns OR are - like you - trying to turn this into a discussion about PvP in general.
Themeparks even doesn't have anything to do with this thread, that topic is completely unrelated.

This isn't about "to PvP or not to PvP", it is about "full PvP or no/consentual/restricted PvP".
You are doing yourself a huge disfavor by tring to turn it into a anti-players/posters rant.

I thought I made it very clear that I was responding to something specific somebody said. I'm not trying to turn the discussion into anything... and I'm certainly not turning it into a discussion about pvp in general. Where are you getting that? There were 2 guys talking about pvp'ers kind of "exposing themselves" by insulting people who don't play ow pvp games. And I interjected with my own personal experience where I feel totally justified calling people carebears or whatever else if they first assuming things about me like I'm a sociopath or a griefer or whatever else just because I like ow pvp.


Originally posted by Holophonist
Well now you're just getting into the discussion itself which doesn't really have anything to do with the post you're responding to.

Oh, but it does:
that was a direct response to

Originally posted by Holophonist
I don't see why it's ok for you guys to criticize OW PvP and people who enjoy it, but the reverse isn't ok.

And just because people point out that the "pro full PvP'ers" so far haven't addressed the "contra's" concerns but instead tried to turn this into a "pro PvP / anti-PvP" (which it isn't), doesn't mean that it's ok to sink to calling people names or addressing them as "soziopaths" and similar.


I at least would much appreciate if people would stay on topic and actually either come up with innovative ways to AVOID the bullying possibility WHILE AT THE SAME TIME retaining the "full PvP" aspect.
Something i have come to think of being impossible.
And those of the "pro crowd" that did, have so far only managed to bring up stuff that would mean "restriced" or "consentual" PvP at best, which is exactly my point.
But if one's trying to "dispell myths" (which have turned out to be less myth and more truth after all, if only just not in a general way) i'd expect him to suggest something better or simply accept that "full PvP" simply isn't "for the masses" and thus unlikely to be done by any major title.

The post of mine that you were responding to has nothing to do with how viable ow pvp is or whatever point you're trying to make. As I said, I'm happy to have a conversation about that, but it's unrelated to the discussion you're coming into.

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