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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dispelling the myths about full PVP

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525 posts found
  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4663

7/27/13 12:21:52 PM#21
Originally posted by darwa
Instead of dispelling myths, all the OP seems to be doing is perpetuating the myth that people that like FFA PvP believe they have more 'rights' than any other type of gamer :/

This ^.

Oh, sweet irony.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

7/27/13 12:23:09 PM#22
Originally posted by killahh
(...)

IMHO, PVP and PVE are both sides of a coin, and somewhere in between is the game we all want to play.

 

cheers.

 

 (...)

 

Nope, there are some (maybe many?) people who do not want PvP in any form. 

  cheyane

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2291

7/27/13 12:23:44 PM#23
Game developers are who you need to pitch this to. We are players mainly here and  people like me like choice. I PvP when I choose like in some games I have played.  Support the PvP games out there so that other developers choose to make more. If developers find it more profitable to make PvP servers and separate players they are the ones you need to convince. 

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  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2427

7/27/13 12:34:45 PM#24
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by killahh
(...)

IMHO, PVP and PVE are both sides of a coin, and somewhere in between is the game we all want to play.

 

cheers.

 

 (...)

 

Nope, there are some (maybe many?) people who do not want PvP in any form. 

Well then go play all the failing games that have no PVP.

 

Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it. They complain about how "eeevil" and "sociopathic" PvPers are, but I've never seen more self centered uneducated posts than from the "We don't want no stinkin PvP!" crowd.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

7/27/13 12:37:06 PM#25
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
(...)

Nobody walked into anything. You tried to close any possible discussion in your OP so you "win", (...)

What is there to win? Why would anyone think there is anything to win in a forum?

 

Furthermore, a post, even a thread opening post, does not need to promote or seek discussion, it can just be informative like the one in this thread. 

I guess you're one of those confusing "discussion forum" with "blog".

Yeah, you are right, it is called "General Discussion " XD.

  whisperwynd

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1359

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

7/27/13 12:41:02 PM#26
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Well then go play all the failing games that have no PVP.

 

Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it. They complain about how "eeevil" and "sociopathic" PvPers are, but I've never seen more self centered uneducated posts than from the "We don't want no stinkin PvP!" crowd.

 Umm, you say PvE'rs complain and namecall PvP'ers yet in the same statement call PvEr's "Self-centered and uneducated".

Does hypocrisy mean anything to you?

  cheyane

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2291

7/27/13 12:42:10 PM#27

 

Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it. 

Why do you need PvE players to read it ?  You do not want PvE players because they are the ones who ask for separate servers and flags in games. So why would you want them ? 

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  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  7/27/13 12:43:50 PM#28
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by killahh
(...)

IMHO, PVP and PVE are both sides of a coin, and somewhere in between is the game we all want to play.

 

cheers.

 

 (...)

 

Nope, there are some (maybe many?) people who do not want PvP in any form. 

Well then go play all the failing games that have no PVP.

 

Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it. They complain about how "eeevil" and "sociopathic" PvPers are, but I've never seen more self centered uneducated posts than from the "We don't want no stinkin PvP!" crowd.

Thanks. The funny part is I'm not asking them to play this game with me or for any of the games they're playing to be transformed into this..  I'm just trying to explain my perspective (and the perspective of others here) and what we want in a future game and it's somehow being perceived as threatening to a lot of people. As if they're going to lose something precious if we finally get a game that satisfies us.

 

Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Bidwood

Myth # 2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”

  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.

Wow, I didn't think anyone would walk into on the first page...  just wow.

Nobody walked into anything. You tried to close any possible discussion in your OP so you "win", but you failed. If you truly believe that, why are you here posting lengthy crap instead of playing games like Darkfall:UW? Those games applied that "Myth #2", and see where they are... niche games, barely surviving with a niche player base.

What you guys don't realize is that full PvP games without any restrictions will ALWAYS be niche games. You will never get an AAA game with completely free for all PvP, ever. Why? Because an AAA company won't cater to the 5% of people who would play such a game longer than a month.

Nice tactic in your OP, almost worthy of a politician, but it doesn't work with me.

Not to mention his entire 'Myth #2' argument is blatantly flawed. It amounts to saying 'unrestricted PvP games don't force PvP on you, because you might not be paying money yet, and you can always play a different game'. What he doesn't realize is that just re-confirms the Myth he's trying to disprove. Most of us are, in fact, not playing those games because we don't want it forced on us.

It doesn't make any sense, whatsoever.

What? No. In this myth I'm talking about games you haven't even played yet that are in development. If it turns out to be full PVP, nobody's forcing you to play it when it comes out. Are you really against there being a triple-A game that isn't your cup of tea?

 

Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

 

We've gone over most of this in this thread as well: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5859170/PvP-vs-PvE-Compromise.html#5859170 on the EQN forums.

You don't need to go into any sort of long argument or talk about your years of experience.  Your stance is provably illogical as your entire basis for why he is "wrong" is that he is trying to "pass [his] preferred and biased playstyle off on someone" which is not the case.

Anyone who is agreeing with azzamasin on this topic is simply agreeing with someone who did not take the time to understand the points made as he countered an argument that was never made.

I can't say I agree with everything said in the OP fully, but this knee jerk anti-PvP player reaction some seem to have without actually having listened to the OP is saddening to me.  

edit: This thread is either being trolled into oblivion, or a lot of people here have quick fingers and slow eyes.

Thanks - starting to wonder about the "trolled into oblivion" people as many responses have totally missed the point.

 

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Bidwood
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

I have to agree. I commend the OP for the effort and well written post, but I can only agree with Azzamasin.

This thread is another good example of how "FFA PvP" proponents do not want any compromise, but want to force their play style on everyone else.

And my answer, coming from someone who's been playing those games for like forever, is this:

Myth # 2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”

  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.

Wow, I didn't think anyone would walk into on the first page...  just wow.

Nobody walked into anything. You tried to close any possible discussion in your OP so you "win", but you failed. If you truly believe that, why are you here posting lengthy crap instead of playing games like Darkfall:UW? Those games applied that "Myth #2", and see where they are... niche games, barely surviving with a niche player base.

What you guys don't realize is that full PvP games without any restrictions will ALWAYS be niche games. You will never get an AAA game with completely free for all PvP, ever. Why? Because an AAA company won't cater to the 5% of people who would play such a game longer than a month.

Nice tactic in your OP, almost worthy of a politician, but it doesn't work with me.

Again!?! Did you even read my post???

 

4. Okay - but the majority of people want PVP on their terms.

  • How many triple-A MMOs with full PVP have they even been able to try in the last 15 years? Who's to say they would find a triple-A game with full PVP distasteful? Games like Darkfall don't count, because they don't have mature systems to integrate with the PVP.
  Ramanadjinn

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1296

7/27/13 12:44:25 PM#29
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by killahh
(...)

IMHO, PVP and PVE are both sides of a coin, and somewhere in between is the game we all want to play.

 

cheers.

 

 (...)

 

Nope, there are some (maybe many?) people who do not want PvP in any form. 

Well then go play all the failing games that have no PVP.

 

Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it. They complain about how "eeevil" and "sociopathic" PvPers are, but I've never seen more self centered uneducated posts than from the "We don't want no stinkin PvP!" crowd.

 

While there are a few posts here obviously lacking in insight.  I do feel that dimly witted people, people who are aggressively ignorant, and generally mean folks are on all parts of the spectrum.  This thread thus far, even though it does seem to indicate your point, should not be taken as any proof that us PVP loving people are of a more enlightened breed.   

I do understand where you are coming from, I just feel I should at least try to sway you.

 

  lafaiel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/07/05
Posts: 96

7/27/13 12:45:27 PM#30
Originally posted by cheyane

 

Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it. 

Why do you need PvE players to read it ?  You do not want PvE players because they are the ones who ask for separate servers and flags in games. So why would you want them ? 

 Its simple Cheyane, they don't want competitive pvp, they want easy kills, they are the definition of carebear that they love to call the pve'ers.

  Ramanadjinn

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1296

7/27/13 12:48:08 PM#31
Originally posted by lafaiel
Originally posted by cheyane

 

Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it. 

Why do you need PvE players to read it ?  You do not want PvE players because they are the ones who ask for separate servers and flags in games. So why would you want them ? 

 Its simple Cheyane, they don't want competitive pvp, they want easy kills, they are the definition of carebear that they love to call the pve'ers.

 

Why are you insulting people that have been respectful towards you?

I am one of these PVP enthusiasts and I have never called you a carebear, I take offense that you think i just want "easy kills."  As if I am just out to ruin people's good time.  That is not the case and please stop trying to paint a picture of me that is innacurate.

  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 584

7/27/13 12:50:33 PM#32

Op was interesting read and did make some good points, and I do appreciate the effort in putting all that together, but the bottom line is owpvp takes away from the pve experience for those that play the game for pve. Yes, it adds a sense of excitement and risk, bit goes too far in hampering the desired gameplay for no gain for the pver. Better mob AI with things like sneak attacks, ambushes could do the same without compromising gameplay (and yes I know AI is never as adaptable as other PC, but mob won't camp your corpse or respawn site just to screw with you).

The arguments I always see from ow ffa pvp proponents is to change how the pver plays to compensate for pvp-where is the added reward for the risk? If i get ganked by group or higher lev at place i want to camp, harvest, etc.-i have to get more people to join me to fight back, then higher lev group comes to help opponents that r in guild, then we have to get more, on and on. Yes that could make a fun pvp fight, but no reward for pver because they didn't get to do what they set out to do. Not to mention getting the armor I worked for taken or having to go out in the wild to harvest wearing the worst armor possible and getting beat up by rats and bats just to avoid losing it. Thats why even the most well-intended, reasonable argument for mixing pve/ow ffa pvp won't convince anyone any different, even many that like combining pvp/pve wont go for ffa pvp because there is no reward to go with risk.

I do agree that games need systems built with pvp in mind for it to work even if not ow ffa. I played on AoC pvp server but was boring and annoying because no reason to pvp. They released game without the promised pvp goals or any consequences. I like a certain amount of pvp, but not if I can't even go to any interesting spots because camped by griefers.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2672

There... are... four... lights!

7/27/13 12:51:44 PM#33
Originally posted by Bidwood

Again!?! Did you even read my post???

 

4. Okay - but the majority of people want PVP on their terms.

  • How many triple-A MMOs with full PVP have they even been able to try in the last 15 years? Who's to say they would find a triple-A game with full PVP distasteful? Games like Darkfall don't count, because they don't have mature systems to integrate with the PVP.

Oh yes, I've read that. As I said previously (did YOU even read my posts?):

"You tried to close any possible discussion in your OP so you "win", but you failed."

"Nice tactic in your OP, almost worthy of a politician, but it doesn't work with me."

What you did is a bit like saying "I want to take a plane instead of a bus". You have a Boeing fitting your needs available ready for take up, but then you just say "I don't want to fly a Boeing". Without any valid reason. Mature systems? Darkfall UW is FFA PvP without any restriction past the safe zones, it seems to fit your requirements perfectly.

If you try to convince people who want compromises in future AAA games to change their minds and become FFA PvP preachers, you couldn't have done it worse. Those people want to be able to enjoy those games just as much as you do, but since your OP closes any possibility of compromise to force full PvP in those games, don't expect those people to ever agree with you.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  cheyane

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2291

7/27/13 12:54:29 PM#34
I do feel sorry that no AAA game exist for full PvP but I doubt trying to convince those of us who want choice in our game will ever work. I love choice so much in my life is without it. I will never agree to PvP without choice. I am sorry because convincing more PvE players can help developers make more of those games and perhaps one that you can be happy with but many of us are entrenched in our views already and you have not convinced me.

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  lafaiel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/07/05
Posts: 96

7/27/13 12:55:17 PM#35
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by lafaiel
Originally posted by cheyane

 

Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it. 

Why do you need PvE players to read it ?  You do not want PvE players because they are the ones who ask for separate servers and flags in games. So why would you want them ? 

 Its simple Cheyane, they don't want competitive pvp, they want easy kills, they are the definition of carebear that they love to call the pve'ers.

 

Why are you insulting people that have been respectful towards you?

I am one of these PVP enthusiasts and I have never called you a carebear, I take offense that you think i just want "easy kills."  As if I am just out to ruin people's good time.  That is not the case and please stop trying to paint a picture of me that is innacurate.

  Not saying you, but I've seen a lot of people do it, as for carebear, I played EVE off and on since 05, I haven't been afraid of pvp in any game since then.  

 

  There are people that do actually like competitive pvp, but you will find a lot of people that ask for FFA don't, if they came out and said "I want it because I'm a griefer, I like easy kills, its my playstyle" people would respect them more, they would still hate them, but they would respect them for that at least.    Its why I liked pvp in EVE, the pirates never tried to act like anything else.

 

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4418

7/27/13 12:57:57 PM#36
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
 

Well then go play all the failing games that have no PVP.

 

Good post OP, but I doubt the closed minded PvE folks will read it. They complain about how "eeevil" and "sociopathic" PvPers are, but I've never seen more self centered uneducated posts than from the "We don't want no stinkin PvP!" crowd.

Thanks for the laugh, DavisFlight. You're ignorance never ceases to amaze and amuse.

Oh, and that last paragraph is a strawman.

That name does seem to be attached to many of the posts that make me laugh on this forum.

Anyway...another "dispelling the myths" thread that contains more myth than facts.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  whisperwynd

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1359

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

7/27/13 12:58:12 PM#37
Originally posted by Bidwood

 

Originally posted by whisperwynd

 Umm, you say PvE'rs complain and namecall PvP'ers yet in the same statement call PvEr's "Self-centered and uneducated".

Does hypocrisy mean anything to you?

Does reading comprehension mean anything to you? He was referring to "the close-minded PVErs". Not all PVErs, obviously.

 

 

Umm that's the same thing, labeling a group then name calling them is still hypocritical if you attempt to say they call you names first. 

 Throwing insults even at those that insult first is still the same, no matter how justified one believes it to be.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

7/27/13 12:59:30 PM#38

I have no problem with MMOS being made from the ground up with open world FFA PvP as it's centerpiece,but any such game needs to be forthright with it's intentions from Day One and not be cryptic or evasive about it .Diversity in any marketplace is a good thing.

However I do have a problem with the segment of the community who think every game should be built this way ,that a sandbox FFA PVP MMO is the only good kind of MMO and bombard every game's forum demanding that this be the case.Again because such an attitude denies diversity.I would have a problem with the PvE only crowd doing similar but that seems to be  a rarity unless they are trying to counter the former crowd.

  Ramanadjinn

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1296

7/27/13 12:59:53 PM#39
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Bidwood.

If you try to convince people who want compromises in future AAA games to change their minds and become FFA PvP preachers, you couldn't have don't it worse. Those people want to be able to enjoy those games just as much as you do, but since your OP closes any possibility of compromise to force full PvP in those games, don't expect those people to ever agree with you.

 

Was his goal to convince people to become "FFA PvP preachers?"  If it was I can't support his post.  But I was possibly mistaken that he never intended to do such a thing.

Regardless, compromise is something neither side of the fence truly wants.

People who want a well integraded PVE/PVP game (notice i did not say FFA PVP game) that relies on the PVE and PVP systems within the game and the interactions between them to function well are not willing to compromise what they consider key game design aspects just so people who do not enjoy PVP will come play the game with them.

People who will not play a game with FFA PVP are unwilling to compromise as well and just play the game as it was made.  They instead want flags,  a different sort of game design that leaves the PVP unnecessary for the game's functionality, and lots of other thigns that are very reasonable for the type of game they wish to play.

The only true compromise I see is separate games for people who want different things.

Most of us want you to have great games to play and we want to have great games to play, but in the end it is just games.  There is no reason we all have to play the same game.

  TribeofOne

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/05
Posts: 973

7/27/13 1:02:55 PM#40
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Bidwood.

If you try to convince people who want compromises in future AAA games to change their minds and become FFA PvP preachers, you couldn't have don't it worse. Those people want to be able to enjoy those games just as much as you do, but since your OP closes any possibility of compromise to force full PvP in those games, don't expect those people to ever agree with you.

 

Was his goal to convince people to become "FFA PvP preachers?"  If it was I can't support his post.  But I was possibly mistaken that he never intended to do such a thing.

Regardless, compromise is something neither side of the fence truly wants.

People who want a well integraded PVE/PVP game that relies on the PVE and PVP systems within the game and the interactions between them to function well are not willing to compromise what they consider key game design aspects just so people who do not enjoy PVP will come play the game with them.

People who will not play a game with FFA PVP are unwilling to compromise as well and just play the game as it was made.  They instead want flags,  a different sort of game design that leaves the PVP unnecessary for the game's functionality, and lots of other thigns that are very reasonable for the type of game they wish to play.

The only true compromise I see is separate games for people who want different things.

Most of us want you to have great games to play and we want to have great games to play, but in the end it is just games.  There is no reason we all have to play the same game.

 

except as has been pointed out before the PVP crowd can not support itself. they eat their own and when no one else shows up to BE CONTENT for you you then leave and blame the game instead of the nature of the pvp genre.
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