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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dispelling the myths about full PVP

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  Bidwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  7/27/13 11:51:38 AM#1

Dispelling the myths about full PVP

There are inevitable debates that pop up during the development of high-profile, triple-A MMOs.

This purpose of this thread is to dispel the myths about full PVP that grow back like weeds every time you cut them down. Hopefully this thread helps some folks see the point of view of those who are waiting patiently for a triple-A game with full PVP.

 

So what is “full” PVP? Here are some of the defining characteristics:

  • PVP is “on” throughout the entire world. (No place is 100 per cent safe, although there can be some areas with strong protection like hi-sec in EVE.)
  • It's integrated with the other mature game systems in a meaningful way -- like the economy -- where everything from crafting to territory control are designed with PVP in mind. (Integration with other well-developed systems is where a lot of the indies fall short and why we need a triple-A title.)
  • It involves risk v.s. reward in a big way. Getting the best resources means venturing into unsafe/contested territories.

I may need to expand on the defining characteristics after other folks weigh in.

 

The myths

1. You just want to grief me.

  • This is the self-centered argument of someone who was scarred for life in Ultima Online a decade ago and can’t move on. We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play
 
2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”
  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.
 
3. It’s PVP v.s. PVE and people who enjoy PVP are a niche.
  • This creates sort of a false dichotomy where you’re looking at a niche of gamers – those who only want to PVP – and ignoring the huge market of folks who want to PVP AND PVE. So the most passionate arguments are usually between those who want ONLY full PVP and those who want ONLY PVE. Both of these are arguably niche, but then again League of Legends is the most played game in the world with only PVP.
 
4. Okay - but the majority of people want PVP on their terms.
  • How many triple-A MMOs with full PVP have they even been able to try in the last 15 years? Who's to say they would find a triple-A game with full PVP distasteful? Games like Darkfall don't count, because they don't have mature systems to integrate with the PVP.
 
5. The answer is simple: Just let people flag themselves for PVP when they want to engage in it.
  • Things go wrong when you take a game designed for full PVP and let people opt in/out whenever they want. Take, for example, the risk v.s. reward characteristic. Human nature compels us to get rewards using the path that involves as little risk as possible. Even people who love risk would be stupid not to turn PVP off because it puts them at a distinct tactical disadvantage. This is like Game Geenie or any number of other hacks and it would break any game designed with full PVP.
 
6. The answer is simple: Just implement PVP and non-PVP servers.
  • You might as well have two different games, because full PVP requires a dedicated dev team to succeed. Remember, it’s not just the ability to attack people. It’s the integration of PVP with other game systems and risk v.s. reward. While a game with dedicated full-service dev teams for each server type would be great for players, it could also hurt publishers’ return on investment.
 
7. Look around at the limited number of PVP servers on popular games. This is proof that the market for open-world PVP games is niche.
  • The only thing this proves is that gamers don’t like a server where a core game mechanic has been merely “turned on” as an afterthought to the game’s design. The PVP is often meaningless in these games because it isn’t “full” PVP and is essentially in its own vaccuum.

 

Okay, so that’s what I was able to come up with so far. I’ll probably refine this and come up with a “v 2.0” after all of the arguments are made.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2804

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

7/27/13 11:57:10 AM#2

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Bidwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  7/27/13 11:58:23 AM#3
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

"TL; DR"? Admit it...

  Myria

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 547

7/27/13 12:01:44 PM#4
Originally posted by Bidwood

"TL; DR"? Admit it...

Seriously, that's the best you can do?

 

Your forum PvP is weak, grasshopper...

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2835

There... are... four... lights!

7/27/13 12:01:59 PM#5
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

I have to agree. I commend the OP for the effort and well written post, but I can only agree with Azzamasin.

This thread is another good example of how "FFA PvP" proponents do not want any compromise, but want to force their play style on everyone else.

And my answer, coming from someone who's been playing those games for like forever, is this:

"Talk to the Hand!"

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  killahh

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 455

As famous as the unknown soldier

7/27/13 12:03:44 PM#6

an excellent post, something similar to a post i made a looong time ago on ten ton.

/golfclaps

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  Bidwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  7/27/13 12:06:23 PM#7
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

I have to agree. I commend the OP for the effort and well written post, but I can only agree with Azzamasin.

This thread is another good example of how "FFA PvP" proponents do not want any compromise, but want to force their play style on everyone else.

And my answer, coming from someone who's been playing those games for like forever, is this:

Myth # 2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”

  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.
Wow, I didn't think anyone would walk into on the first page...  just wow.
  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2804

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

7/27/13 12:06:42 PM#8
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

I have to agree. I commend the OP for the effort and well written post, but I can only agree with Azzamasin.

This thread is another good example of how "FFA PvP" proponents do not want any compromise, but want to force their play style on everyone else.

Exactly!!!  110% of the PvP crowd, and I hate to use this term because it makes it sound like there are camps.  But the PvP crowd, namely the FFA PvP crowd will never settle, will never compromise and I do not understand how anyone can be so blinded and obtuse to an argument with opinionated fallacy. 

 

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Gaeluian

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/23/09
Posts: 72

To be or not to be, I don't really care!

7/27/13 12:10:28 PM#9
Simply put FFA PVP = gank fest = only fun for the gankers. Keep it on a separate server, away from PVE and, I'm ok with it.
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2835

There... are... four... lights!

7/27/13 12:12:07 PM#10
Originally posted by Bidwood
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

I have to agree. I commend the OP for the effort and well written post, but I can only agree with Azzamasin.

This thread is another good example of how "FFA PvP" proponents do not want any compromise, but want to force their play style on everyone else.

And my answer, coming from someone who's been playing those games for like forever, is this:

Myth # 2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”

  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.
Wow, I didn't think anyone would walk into on the first page...  just wow.

Nobody walked into anything. You tried to close any possible discussion in your OP so you "win", but you failed. If you truly believe that, why are you here posting lengthy crap instead of playing games like Darkfall:UW? Those games applied that "Myth #2", and see where they are... niche games, barely surviving with a niche player base.

What you guys don't realize is that full PvP games without any restrictions will ALWAYS be niche games. You will never get an AAA game with completely free for all PvP, ever. Why? Because an AAA company won't cater to the 5% of people who would play such a game longer than a month.

Nice tactic in your OP, almost worthy of a politician, but it doesn't work with me.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Darwa

Elite Member

Joined: 7/04/04
Posts: 2178

7/27/13 12:13:58 PM#11
Instead of dispelling myths, all the OP seems to be doing is perpetuating the myth that people that like FFA PvP believe they have more 'rights' than any other type of gamer :/
  Ramanadjinn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1312

7/27/13 12:14:53 PM#12
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

 

We've gone over most of this in this thread as well: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5859170/PvP-vs-PvE-Compromise.html#5859170 on the EQN forums.

You don't need to go into any sort of long argument or talk about your years of experience.  Your stance is provably illogical as your entire basis for why he is "wrong" is that he is trying to "pass [his] preferred and biased playstyle off on someone" which is not the case.

Anyone who is agreeing with azzamasin on this topic is simply agreeing with someone who did not take the time to understand the points made as he countered an argument that was never made.

I can't say I agree with everything said in the OP fully, but this knee jerk anti-PvP player reaction some seem to have without actually having listened to the OP is saddening to me.  

edit: This thread is either being trolled into oblivion, or a lot of people here have quick fingers and slow eyes.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

7/27/13 12:17:28 PM#13
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
(...)

Nobody walked into anything. You tried to close any possible discussion in your OP so you "win", (...)

What is there to win? Why would anyone think there is anything to win in a forum?

 

Furthermore, a post, even a thread opening post, does not need to promote or seek discussion, it can just be informative like the one in this thread. 

  Grym

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/04
Posts: 228

In total darkness, I look just like Brad Pitt.

7/27/13 12:17:52 PM#14
Originally posted by Bidwood

Dispelling the myths about full PVP

There are inevitable debates that pop up during the development of high-profile, triple-A MMOs.

This purpose of this thread is to dispel the myths about full PVP that grow back like weeds every time you cut them down. Hopefully this thread helps some folks see the point of view of those who are waiting patiently for a triple-A game with full PVP.

 

So what is “full” PVP? Here are some of the defining characteristics:

  • PVP is “on” throughout the entire world. (No place is 100 per cent safe, although there can be some areas with strong protection like hi-sec in EVE.)
  • It's integrated with the other mature game systems in a meaningful way -- like the economy -- where everything from crafting to territory control are designed with PVP in mind. (Integration with other well-developed systems is where a lot of the indies fall short and why we need a triple-A title.)
  • It involves risk v.s. reward in a big way. Getting the best resources means venturing into unsafe/contested territories.

I may need to expand on the defining characteristics after other folks weigh in.

 

The myths

1. You just want to grief me.

  • This is the self-centered argument of someone who was scarred for life in Ultima Online a decade ago and can’t move on. We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play
 
2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”
  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.
 
3. It’s PVP v.s. PVE and people who enjoy PVP are a niche.
  • This creates sort of a false dichotomy where you’re looking at a niche of gamers – those who only want to PVP – and ignoring the huge market of folks who want to PVP AND PVE. So the most passionate arguments are usually between those who want ONLY full PVP and those who want ONLY PVE. Both of these are arguably niche, but then again League of Legends is the most played game in the world with only PVP.
 
4. Okay - but the majority of people want PVP on their terms.
  • How many triple-A MMOs with full PVP have they even been able to try in the last 15 years? Who's to say they would find a triple-A game with full PVP distasteful? Games like Darkfall don't count, because they don't have mature systems to integrate with the PVP.
 
5. The answer is simple: Just let people flag themselves for PVP when they want to engage in it.
  • Things go wrong when you take a game designed for full PVP and let people opt in/out whenever they want. Take, for example, the risk v.s. reward characteristic. Human nature compels us to get rewards using the path that involves as little risk as possible. Even people who love risk would be stupid not to turn PVP off because it puts them at a distinct tactical disadvantage. This is like Game Geenie or any number of other hacks and it would break any game designed with full PVP.
 
6. The answer is simple: Just implement PVP and non-PVP servers.
  • You might as well have two different games, because full PVP requires a dedicated dev team to succeed. Remember, it’s not just the ability to attack people. It’s the integration of PVP with other game systems and risk v.s. reward. While a game with dedicated full-service dev teams for each server type would be great for players, it could also hurt publishers’ return on investment.
 
7. Look around at the limited number of PVP servers on popular games. This is proof that the market for open-world PVP games is niche.
  • The only thing this proves is that gamers don’t like a server where a core game mechanic has been merely “turned on” as an afterthought to the game’s design. The PVP is often meaningless in these games because it isn’t “full” PVP and is essentially in its own vaccuum.

 

Okay, so that’s what I was able to come up with so far. I’ll probably refine this and come up with a “v 2.0” after all of the arguments are made.

Ok, we all get it.  You're "Pro" PvP.  However, your constant attempts to persuade non-PvP players to your point of view are becoming annoying.  You, more than any other poster I've seen on these boards of late, have incited more "troll" threads about how wonderful pvp can be and anyone that doesn't agree with your opinion is completely uninformed.  Give it a rest will you?  I can't wait for the SOE expo to put all this speculation to rest so those who are interested can move forward and those who don't like what they hear can move on.  Have a nice day.

(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."

  Aeander

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/11
Posts: 315

7/27/13 12:18:56 PM#15

Open world "PvP" is not PvP. It's not balanced. It's not skill-based. It's not meaningful, and it's rarely even between two consenting parties. It's for the crowd that wants to kill other players but is not skilled enough to do so against players who are able, ready, and willing to fight back. 

 

If you want your own "PvP" servers, that's well enough - everyone who is on them has made the conscious decision to play in these conditions. If you want an entire FFA "PvP" game, well.... you're at the mercy of the market and game developers, and I can't be inclined to care. One doesn't "consent" to be ganked just because they decide to play a game that only offers "PvP" servers - there's more to a game than its central game type, and being forced to give up mechanics, classes, or an environment that one would enjoy without constantly being ganked by xxNarutoxx the Assassin would leave a bitter taste in a lot of mouths. 

  killahh

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 455

As famous as the unknown soldier

7/27/13 12:19:35 PM#16
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

sorry i had to come back, but if your playing the age game, i have 20+ years or mmorpg experience, have worked on a successful mmorpg,  have friends that are both  former and current indie devs, beta tested  more than  most people and have in my very  small way helped define the genre. I dont have  thousands of posts on this site, but i have been here from the beginning prettymuch, and have read the going ons of this website since  the first day of mmorpg.com.

the OP  is right in his opinions, as are you, this is a forum for discussion, and  when you break it down, PLAYER VS PLAYER is exactly that. no holds barred competition. It is always highly ironic to me that in the course of the games i have played over the years i see people bragging their pvp prowess, but only on their terms. this is not real pvp, this is called playground pvp.

this  is a total nich market, and thats why there is not many games that offer this, UO did,  and Jean Luc, i  am a UO vet as well, I  was there in the crowd when Rainz killed Lord British to boot..  and in the origional UO,  people did not accept the ffa PVP model, thus the game was changed.

EVE , and to some extent darkfall(2) have successfully  done this model , but few others.

 

IMHO, PVP and PVE are both sides of a coin, and somewhere in between is the game we all want to play.

 

cheers.

 

 

 

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4782

7/27/13 12:20:59 PM#17
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Bidwood

Myth # 2. “Why should I be forced to play your way? No one is forcing you to PVE.”

  • This makes it sound like you’re already a paying customer for a game and we’re pulling the rug out from under you. If a game is in development and you find out it has full PVP, you aren’t forced to do anything. You can simply play a different game. If you do play and get ganked, then you still made a conscious decision with regard to risk v.s. reward. And you lost. No one forced anything on you.
Wow, I didn't think anyone would walk into on the first page...  just wow.

Nobody walked into anything. You tried to close any possible discussion in your OP so you "win", but you failed. If you truly believe that, why are you here posting lengthy crap instead of playing games like Darkfall:UW? Those games applied that "Myth #2", and see where they are... niche games, barely surviving with a niche player base.

What you guys don't realize is that full PvP games without any restrictions will ALWAYS be niche games. You will never get an AAA game with completely free for all PvP, ever. Why? Because an AAA company won't cater to the 5% of people who would play such a game longer than a month.

Nice tactic in your OP, almost worthy of a politician, but it doesn't work with me.

Not to mention his entire 'Myth #2' argument is blatantly flawed. It amounts to saying 'unrestricted PvP games don't force PvP on you, because you might not be paying money yet, and you can always play a different game'. What he doesn't realize is that just re-confirms the Myth he's trying to disprove. Most of us are, in fact, not playing those games because we don't want it forced on us.

It doesn't make any sense, whatsoever.

  whisperwynd

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1426

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

7/27/13 12:21:05 PM#18

 Most of those points are for a FFA PvP game, but the 'myths' you bring up are usually associated with threads/comments/notions etc. to have a game balanced for PvP and PvE.

 LoL isn't an Mmo, no breathing world to play in. It's definitely an e-sport with competition as the driving force behind it. 

 Still a personal opinion though and not quite debunks the whole 'myth' thing. 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2835

There... are... four... lights!

7/27/13 12:21:28 PM#19
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
(...)

Nobody walked into anything. You tried to close any possible discussion in your OP so you "win", (...)

What is there to win? Why would anyone think there is anything to win in a forum?

 

Furthermore, a post, even a thread opening post, does not need to promote or seek discussion, it can just be informative like the one in this thread. 

I guess you're one of those confusing "discussion forum" with "blog".

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  lafaiel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/07/05
Posts: 96

7/27/13 12:21:51 PM#20
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by azzamasin

I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise.  So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.

I have to agree. I commend the OP for the effort and well written post, but I can only agree with Azzamasin.

This thread is another good example of how "FFA PvP" proponents do not want any compromise, but want to force their play style on everyone else.

Exactly!!!  110% of the PvP crowd, and I hate to use this term because it makes it sound like there are camps.  But the PvP crowd, namely the FFA PvP crowd will never settle, will never compromise and I do not understand how anyone can be so blinded and obtuse to an argument with opinionated fallacy. 

  They're like Locusts, they go into a game and destroy everything then move on to the next game, there is a reason most companies hardly ever make FFA pvp games, its because they know these people will destroy it.

 

 

 

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