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General Discussion  » Too much change

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47 posts found
  ReallyNow10

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1471

If the reality ain't shared, it ain't an MMORPG.

 
OP  7/22/13 9:06:27 PM#1

The problem I have with WOW is its last four years of development seem to take on this concept that the game needs to have frequent changes and Continuous Quality Improvement (CQI).  The latter is a business concept in which processes need continuous monitoring and tweaks to improve quality; a never-ending process of change.

The problem with this is it steals away the fantasy theme of "always", in which there is this simple beautiful world which always is.  Also, the never-ending change is frustrating to many as it causes us to relearn how to play over and over and over.  Change, even positive change, causes churn (i.e., some in the player base will quit because of it).

So, over-simplification and CQI (continuous change), IMO, drives players away.  Certainly drove me away; I'm just sick of every time I sit down at the WOW table, the rules have changed.  Also, IMO, development management doesn't know what the h#$L they're doing; they're driving this game into the ground and fast.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

7/22/13 9:10:34 PM#2

5.3 and 5.4 are trying to move away from dailies, so that change is good.

 

WoW tinkers with classes *far* too much though.  Many classes play completely different than they used to, which is terrible design and has definitely contributed to the churn

  Epicent

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/16/10
Posts: 662

Die clickers Die!!!

7/22/13 9:12:19 PM#3
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

The problem I have with WOW is its last four years of development seem to take on this concept that the game needs to have frequent changes and Continuous Quality Improvement (CQI).  The latter is a business concept in which processes need continuous monitoring and tweaks to improve quality; a never-ending process of change.

The problem with this is it steals away the fantasy theme of "always", in which there is this simple beautiful world which always is.  Also, the never-ending change is frustrating to many as it causes us to relearn how to play over and over and over.  Change, even positive change, causes churn (i.e., some in the player base will quit because of it).

So, over-simplification and CQI (continuous change), IMO, drives players away.  Certainly drove me away; I'm just sick of every time I sit down at the WOW table, the rules have changed.  Also, IMO, development management doesn't know what the h#$L they're doing; they're driving this game into the ground and fast.

This is spot on. The main reason I quit was because I didn't feel like relearning my character for the zillionth time.

  versulas

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 204

7/22/13 9:33:13 PM#4

meh... I think people would rather have too much change than not enough in a story-driven themepark. Once you've done something once, unless you have change, your only option is to do it over and over again which causes the game to get stale.

For one, content locusts are always moving on to the next thing, and change is a way to keep them interested in a dated game. While progression is often referred to as a hamster wheel, it DOES allow max-level players something to do, and a lack of endgame content has always been the number one complaint in most new mmo's (at least on this site).

For another, the instant gratification crowd has come into mainstream mmo titles and to please them devs are starting to change the classic archetypes to have less downtime, be more mobile, accomplish more with less, and be more self-sufficient. This causes players to adapt to those changes. Classes are simply one more area where Blizzard draws people in and says, "We're doing something." It might not be particularly new or innovative, but if they're not going to raise the level cap every month or so and add new skills or missions or tie them into the story in any way, shape, or form, they can at least rethink the old stuff.

 

Finally, it's not all that hard to keep track of these changes. Classes and encounters in WoW are laughably easy to master. It's just all the people who have left WoW and come back months or years later and are overwhelmed by all these changes at once that have issues.

  Datastar

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/07/13
Posts: 131

7/22/13 9:38:38 PM#5
honestly with the move vivindi is making to bleed blizzard/activision prolly a good time to just move on folks.
  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 611

7/22/13 9:48:16 PM#6
Originally posted by Datastar
honestly with the move vivindi is making to bleed blizzard/activision prolly a good time to just move on folks.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/07/22/vivendi-to-force-3-billion-special-dividend-on-activision-blizzard/

Vivendi , which owns a controlling 61% stake in Activision-Blizzard, is set to discuss forcing a $3 billion special dividend on the American video game publisher at its board meeting Monday.

 

  page975

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/02/13
Posts: 317

7/23/13 3:44:28 AM#7

Back in the 60s Ford had the Mustang, very popular car. I think it was the mid 70s they decided to completely overhaul the design. Like WoW.  No one asked for this drastic change.  Ford did it anyway.

They made it much smaller, cheaper with the same engine as the Ford Pinto.  All their engines got only forty thousand miles before they began to burn oil.  It was a major flop and AND NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS CHANGE !

 

 

Exactly like what Blizzard did with WoW.  Contrary to popular belief no one asked for easy, they made this up.  Blizzard did this to market their expansions and sell them faster.....Show me Prof of this you say ?...I say screw you ! 

Have you ever played World of Warcraft with 10 year olds back in 2005 ?....They played just as good as adults...They would need everything and loot your stuff, complain, and be selfish, but they played the game just as good if not better...No one asked for easy !

 

Blizzard could have gone in several directions, instead they could have made a new 1-60 Continent.  This is just one example . But to butcher a working project was a bad move.  Bad move for the players, but good move for marketing.

People here would say " but 9 million players ". First, without going into detail this is another marketing trick by Blizzard, the numbers are fabricated by the team.  No one knows the alternative directions history could have taken, but I'm sure it could have been better.  I could only guess, but my opinion would be that the NEW marketing team stepped in after the BC expansion and overpowered the passion !

 

  sportsfan

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 342

7/24/13 9:31:56 AM#8
Originally posted by page975

Back in the 60s Ford had the Mustang, very popular car. I think it was the mid 70s they decided to completely overhaul the design. Like WoW.  No one asked for this drastic change.  Ford did it anyway.

They made it much smaller, cheaper with the same engine as the Ford Pinto.  All their engines got only forty thousand miles before they began to burn oil.  It was a major flop and AND NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS CHANGE !

 

 

Exactly like what Blizzard did with WoW.  Contrary to popular belief no one asked for easy, they made this up.  Blizzard did this to market their expansions and sell them faster.....Show me Prof of this you say ?...I say screw you ! 

Have you ever played World of Warcraft with 10 year olds back in 2005 ?....They played just as good as adults...They would need everything and loot your stuff, complain, and be selfish, but they played the game just as good if not better...No one asked for easy !

 

Blizzard could have gone in several directions, instead they could have made a new 1-60 Continent.  This is just one example . But to butcher a working project was a bad move.  Bad move for the players, but good move for marketing.

People here would say " but 9 million players ". First, without going into detail this is another marketing trick by Blizzard, the numbers are fabricated by the team.  No one knows the alternative directions history could have taken, but I'm sure it could have been better.  I could only guess, but my opinion would be that the NEW marketing team stepped in after the BC expansion and overpowered the passion !

 

WOW is MUCH too difficult for a new player.

No Multi million game can afford to go the hardcore way.

It is rather simple: you can't expect someone to play a game for 3000 hours and then listen to his desires to include MORE that would challenge him.

 

Uplayable mess would be the result.

Lesson 1: log in: try to FORGET EVERYTHING by playing the thing in the past 3000 hours ... and then come back and say WOW is too dumbed down.

 

it really isn't , if anything it is too bewildering for ANY player coming back after 3 years, let alone a newbee...

 

  Thane

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1667

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

7/24/13 9:39:00 AM#9

gotta love how you guys wont stop calling a game with more than 8 million subs a fail.

lemme do such a fail plz!

 

 

 

you sound like grumpy grandpas who could never get assed to learn how to drive with a gearshift after buying that cool automatic car.

 

ps: i am 37 years old, so don't start to think i concider you guys old. it's just your behaviour :)

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  ReallyNow10

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1471

If the reality ain't shared, it ain't an MMORPG.

 
OP  7/24/13 9:56:58 AM#10
Originally posted by Thane

gotta love how you guys wont stop calling a game with more than 8 million subs a fail.

lemme do such a fail plz!

 

 

 

you sound like grumpy grandpas who could never get assed to learn how to drive with a gearshift after buying that cool automatic car.

 

ps: i am 37 years old, so don't start to think i concider you guys old. it's just your behaviour :)

Revenue less Expenses.  Repeat.  Revenue less Expenses.

And no one called WOW a "fail".  WOW appears to be losing subs, however, and while some of this is the age of the game, I do feel that some of it is the dev team rewriting the rules every few months, and I'm not talking about content, I'm talking about character skills and gameplay.  

  slickbizzle

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/11
Posts: 430

7/24/13 8:41:54 PM#11

I like change.    Change does make a game feel fresh again for a while. 

 

 

 

  MikeJezZ

Elite Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 1170

Only in death, does duty end.

7/25/13 2:57:03 AM#12
Originally posted by strangiato2112

5.3 and 5.4 are trying to move away from dailies, so that change is good.

 

WoW tinkers with classes *far* too much though.  Many classes play completely different than they used to, which is terrible design and has definitely contributed to the churn

This is why I left my rogue after 8 years.

Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

  eccoton

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/05
Posts: 1335

7/25/13 10:50:47 AM#13
Originally posted by MikeJezZ
Originally posted by strangiato2112

5.3 and 5.4 are trying to move away from dailies, so that change is good.

 

WoW tinkers with classes *far* too much though.  Many classes play completely different than they used to, which is terrible design and has definitely contributed to the churn

This is why I left my rogue after 8 years.

I think it is funny that back 3 to 4 years into the game Blizzard changed and added very little and people complained about the lack of change. Now they complain about change. I go back to something I have said many times. Most people did not leave because of change. They blame change as the reason since they don't want to face the fact that after nearly eight years they were simply bored. If WOW released in the state it is now and evolved into vanilla WOW people would be pissed and claimed they killed the game. People, eight years is a longtime to play any mmo even EQ. Blizzard has done a good job at trying to keep WOW fresh. Somethings worked some did not but over all WOW is a better experience now then back 6 years ago. You just got bored.

  Chrisbox

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1160

7/25/13 10:54:50 AM#14
Originally posted by strangiato2112

5.3 and 5.4 are trying to move away from dailies, so that change is good.

 

WoW tinkers with classes *far* too much though.  Many classes play completely different than they used to, which is terrible design and has definitely contributed to the churn

It's because they can't balance this expansion with such high item levels, they've had the same problems since 5.0 and I can assure you they aren't going away in 5.4.  

Unless they crunch down ilvl's and stats next expansion balance will be even worse.  

Played-Everything
Playing-WoW
Want:Destiny, WoD

  doodphace

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 995

7/25/13 11:01:43 AM#15
Originally posted by strangiato2112

5.3 and 5.4 are trying to move away from dailies, so that change is good.

 

WoW tinkers with classes *far* too much though.  Many classes play completely different than they used to, which is terrible design and has definitely contributed to the churn

There was the one huge change for all classes that took place during 4.0.1, other than thats its been pretty stable for most classes. With that said, there were a few classes that despratly needed some changes (warlock, im looking at you). They pretty much have all 3 warlock specs feeling different now (only took them 8 years :P ), which is a good thing. Their next targets are rogues and hunters, where all 3 specs for each of them still feel very close. I def support that.

My biggest "change" gripe was making 10 mans and 25 mans the same diff/gear level and raid lockout. They are somewhat fixing that in 5.4 with flex raids, but in the end its not quite the same.

  doodphace

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 995

7/25/13 11:03:35 AM#16
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by strangiato2112

5.3 and 5.4 are trying to move away from dailies, so that change is good.

 

WoW tinkers with classes *far* too much though.  Many classes play completely different than they used to, which is terrible design and has definitely contributed to the churn

It's because they can't balance this expansion with such high item levels, they've had the same problems since 5.0 and I can assure you they aren't going away in 5.4.  

Unless they crunch down ilvl's and stats next expansion balance will be even worse.  

Well, conisdering the game is vastly more balanced now than it was in vanilla/BC, im not quite sure ilvl inflation is related...

  User Deleted
7/25/13 11:07:32 AM#17
Originally posted by page975

Back in the 60s Ford had the Mustang, very popular car. I think it was the mid 70s they decided to completely overhaul the design. Like WoW.  No one asked for this drastic change.  Ford did it anyway.

They made it much smaller, cheaper with the same engine as the Ford Pinto.  All their engines got only forty thousand miles before they began to burn oil.  It was a major flop and AND NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS CHANGE !

 

 

You seem to be referring to the Mustang II which was brought about due to Opec, gas prices and gas lines of the time...  Along with Federal MPG/smog requirements.

 

Which might be a great example if Blizzard is changing WoW as a reaction to losing players.. but I don't really know if we have data to show if their subs are dropping due to changes or not.

 

Because you've either made a great example of "unpopular" change brought on by outside uncontrollable factors or... you are comparing change brought on by entirely different reasons...  aka if people left wow because of change that blizzard decided to make due to no factor than their own decision making.

 

I used to like World of Warcraft "alright" but the decision process going back to before Cata's release just boggles the mind (my opinion).

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8121

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

7/25/13 11:13:08 AM#18
The game has been under my radar for to long... Any word on them implementing dynamic events, they allways took the good stuff from others and made it better...

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online

  Chrisbox

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1160

7/25/13 11:14:54 AM#19
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by strangiato2112

5.3 and 5.4 are trying to move away from dailies, so that change is good.

 

WoW tinkers with classes *far* too much though.  Many classes play completely different than they used to, which is terrible design and has definitely contributed to the churn

It's because they can't balance this expansion with such high item levels, they've had the same problems since 5.0 and I can assure you they aren't going away in 5.4.  

Unless they crunch down ilvl's and stats next expansion balance will be even worse.  

Well, conisdering the game is vastly more balanced now than it was in vanilla/BC, im not quite sure ilvl inflation is related...

It's a different kind of imbalance this time around though, vanilla/BC had a ton more of PVE imbalances.  MoP's problems lie mainly in PvP which is just CC someone then burst someone down or bursted.  Not to mention more than half the specs aren't 2200 viable.  

Not saying PVE in MoP is completely balanced either though, its clear what classes are topping meters and pally tanks...nuff said.  

Played-Everything
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  Lord.Bachus

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Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8121

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

7/25/13 11:17:03 AM#20
Originally posted by Antarious
Originally posted by page975

Back in the 60s Ford had the Mustang, very popular car. I think it was the mid 70s they decided to completely overhaul the design. Like WoW.  No one asked for this drastic change.  Ford did it anyway.

They made it much smaller, cheaper with the same engine as the Ford Pinto.  All their engines got only forty thousand miles before they began to burn oil.  It was a major flop and AND NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS CHANGE !

 

 

You seem to be referring to the Mustang II which was brought about due to Opec, gas prices and gas lines of the time...  Along with Federal MPG/smog requirements.

 

Which might be a great example if Blizzard is changing WoW as a reaction to losing players.. but I don't really know if we have data to show if their subs are dropping due to changes or not.

 

Because you've either made a great example of "unpopular" change brought on by outside uncontrollable factors or... you are comparing change brought on by entirely different reasons...  aka if people left wow because of change that blizzard decided to make due to no factor than their own decision making.

 

I used to like World of Warcraft "alright" but the decision process going back to before Cata's release just boggles the mind (my opinion).

it was a bad example anyway..

 

When talking about cars WoW is best compared to the porsche 911, it been around more then 60 years now, and has in that time slowly evolved untill what it is now, but allways taking the right steps to keep up with time... some models worked better then others, but the product is still one of the most wanted cars in the world.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online

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