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MMORPG Game Concepts  » AAA title developers, let me give you some advice.

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74 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

7/23/13 11:31:12 AM#41
Originally posted by udon
 

The genre isn't dying down but it is changing from things people play for years to 30-60 day consumables that you play than move on much like SPG's are.   I guess your average person just isn't interested in spending several years playing the same game and wants new toys every couple months to play with.  Or put another way the draw of a new shinny new game is greater to your average player than the draw of long term community building.

 

Dying? It is just changing. And you are right, i am not interested in spending years in just one game. It is better to have new games and new experiences.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

7/23/13 11:32:10 AM#42
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon
My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.

 

 


 

I just love how you can nail the thread in first, single, accurate and spot on reply.

And better yet, it probably reflects the world already. I doubt any dev is listening to guys like OP ranting on the internet.

 

  Spector88

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 100

Into the fray...

 
OP  7/23/13 11:35:27 AM#43

Originally posted by DamonVile
The OPs post is the same ....pile of stuff... people throw into every post about where mmos are and everyone agrees....but apparently when you put it all together and make it a single rant suddenly it's cringe worthy.

I guess this is a case of "how you say it" not exactly what you say.  The OPs points are overly simplistic, unrealistic, and I think they're juvenile, but had he said them without insults and posturing maybe it would have come across better.

The problem with the OPs arguments is they lack substance and state the obvious.  Of course development shouldn't be rushed.  Yes, developers should consider the needs and wants of their target demographic.  The OP is projecting their personal agenda of what that means on the larger whole and it doesn't hold up.  If the world really wanted another 1st gen game just as it was then the developers would offer that.

I guess I didn't give atleast 4-5 specific examples of games, ideas, and specifically why they aren't succeeding.

Fact: Instead of adding things people continously ask for, aka Player Housing, aka More customization, aka less restriction aka more freedom, more PvP options, world PvP. They are doing the same thing over and over, while trying to be 'cute' and look original.

Then people like you, accept the garbage and make 100 excuses on why its okay, and how we can't possibly know more then them. I look at game developers on the same level as politicians. They're all full of bull $(*!# and they never want to take anyones advice, and want all the credit.

As many other threads indicate, they don't need original. They need to take pieces other games have done that people liked, re-do them for 2013, update them, combine good thoughts and ideas. Not go off into a completely different direction and suck up the room. If they do, then do it right. Unfortunately not many of them are.

There were games 10 years ago with way more sophisticated community interaction, guild, player development etc. We have stepped back in most ways other than convienance and graphically.

Yes, my post is negative. I don't expect any AAA person to read my post, let alone listen to anyone who isn't a part of their niche or genius mind state. They all assume that their innovative ideas are ground breaking instead of taking pieces of what we know works and just making it BETTER.

EQ was cool, make one better

AC was cool make one better

Ultima was cool make one better

Why are we making completely instanced linear no end game asian grinding mindless pay to win garbage?

Many of us are out 100$'s of dollars buying these new titles only to 2-3 months later realize how dooped we got. Threads pop up every single day on these subjects over and over. 10 years ago when the industry was smaller, yet unique and growing, it wasn't negative like this.

  Spector88

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 100

Into the fray...

 
OP  7/23/13 11:37:15 AM#44
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by udon
 

The genre isn't dying down but it is changing from things people play for years to 30-60 day consumables that you play than move on much like SPG's are.   I guess your average person just isn't interested in spending several years playing the same game and wants new toys every couple months to play with.  Or put another way the draw of a new shinny new game is greater to your average player than the draw of long term community building.

 

Dying? It is just changing. And you are right, i am not interested in spending years in just one game. It is better to have new games and new experiences.

 

Cool story bro, go play a console game then. Pretty sure MMO's have always been about continous progression, and the benefits of MMO's have traditionally been not having the cost of constantly buying new titles only to have it all go to waste.

To each their own. Nice post count though.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7481

7/23/13 11:40:25 AM#45


Originally posted by nariusseldon

And better yet, it probably reflects the world already. I doubt any dev is listening to guys like OP ranting on the internet.

Sadly, I would say thatt indie devs usually fall for this - "working with community" they call it and it cost them a business at the end of the day...

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1875

7/23/13 11:43:16 AM#46
Originally posted by Spector88

First, quit being cute.

Similar to GM's for sports teams, quit trying to pull something out of right field (drafted some nobody with your first pick) and then try to look smart. It's pretty plain to see what the majority of players like and wish for in a game, then make it happen. The most successful companies make it happen, they dont make excuses. What are some of the biggest things players want? They want things like PLAYER HOUSING, yet, only a few games ever have it. They want things like immersive wide open worlds, yet we get this streamlined follow A to B to C to D, kill a few rats, go to C then to B, A. What is this crap? Do you really think anyone is going to feel immersed in a cage and invisible walls?

So . . . are you sure you want developers to do what the majority want? You do realize that's precisely why games like WoW evolved into what they are, followed by the "clones."

What you should want is a return to small scale development with games targeting niche crowds with an aim at a lower (but still profitable) return on their game.

 

See, what you don't seem to get is that developers track what people do when they play their games. You say "most people want player housing!!!" But you're confused with what players want and what you feel most players want based on your own wants. The majority of players want player housing is the theory right? What kind of numbers do you have to back this up? I too like player housing, but me and you don't make a majority. Even if we had 2000 people say they want player housing, that still isn't a majority of MMO players. It's not even a drop in the bucket.

Same goes for immersive open worlds. Maybe players want that, or maybe again, it's a smaller subset that wants that.

So no, I don't want games made for the majority, I want games that target certain segments.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/23/13 11:48:06 AM#47
Originally posted by Spector88

I guess I didn't give atleast 4-5 specific examples of games, ideas, and specifically why they aren't succeeding.

Fact: Instead of adding things people continously ask for, aka Player Housing, aka More customization, aka less restriction aka more freedom, more PvP options, world PvP. They are doing the same thing over and over, while trying to be 'cute' and look original.

Then people like you, accept the garbage and make 100 excuses on why its okay, and how we can't possibly know more then them. I look at game developers on the same level as politicians. They're all full of bull $(*!# and they never want to take anyones advice, and want all the credit.

As many other threads indicate, they don't need original. They need to take pieces other games have done that people liked, re-do them for 2013, update them, combine good thoughts and ideas. Not go off into a completely different direction and suck up the room. If they do, then do it right. Unfortunately not many of them are.

There were games 10 years ago with way more sophisticated community interaction, guild, player development etc. We have stepped back in most ways other than convienance and graphically.

Yes, my post is negative. I don't expect any AAA person to read my post, let alone listen to anyone who isn't a part of their niche or genius mind state. They all assume that their innovative ideas are ground breaking instead of taking pieces of what we know works and just making it BETTER.

EQ was cool, make one better

AC was cool make one better

Ultima was cool make one better

Why are we making completely instanced linear no end game asian grinding mindless pay to win garbage?

Many of us are out 100$'s of dollars buying these new titles only to 2-3 months later realize how dooped we got. Threads pop up every single day on these subjects over and over. 10 years ago when the industry was smaller, yet unique and growing, it wasn't negative like this.

I would retort with everything you said by "Go be an indie developer and make a game then" but it quite honestly is showing more and more that you don't exactly know how the industry works, especially in regards to triple A games.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7481

7/23/13 11:56:36 AM#48


Originally posted by Rusque
[
What you should want is a return to small scale development with games targeting niche crowds with an aim at a lower (but still profitable) return on their game.

A business with low return is a business that is not going to last long... Why would any business minded person do that?

  Spector88

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 100

Into the fray...

 
OP  7/23/13 12:00:16 PM#49

Are you all really trying to argue, when game after game is a disapointment

That having more massive immersive, true MMO quality worlds. With things to make it seem more genuine and personal like player housing more guild options guild housing, etc. (These are just an example) than linear, stream lined, quest forced driven gameplay is 'NICHE'

I'm not talking niche. I'm talking making a game that is an MMO

not an ORPG.

 

  Spector88

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 100

Into the fray...

 
OP  7/23/13 12:02:12 PM#50
Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by Spector88

First, quit being cute.

Similar to GM's for sports teams, quit trying to pull something out of right field (drafted some nobody with your first pick) and then try to look smart. It's pretty plain to see what the majority of players like and wish for in a game, then make it happen. The most successful companies make it happen, they dont make excuses. What are some of the biggest things players want? They want things like PLAYER HOUSING, yet, only a few games ever have it. They want things like immersive wide open worlds, yet we get this streamlined follow A to B to C to D, kill a few rats, go to C then to B, A. What is this crap? Do you really think anyone is going to feel immersed in a cage and invisible walls?

So . . . are you sure you want developers to do what the majority want? You do realize that's precisely why games like WoW evolved into what they are, followed by the "clones."

What you should want is a return to small scale development with games targeting niche crowds with an aim at a lower (but still profitable) return on their game.

 

See, what you don't seem to get is that developers track what people do when they play their games. You say "most people want player housing!!!" But you're confused with what players want and what you feel most players want based on your own wants. The majority of players want player housing is the theory right? What kind of numbers do you have to back this up? I too like player housing, but me and you don't make a majority. Even if we had 2000 people say they want player housing, that still isn't a majority of MMO players. It's not even a drop in the bucket.

Same goes for immersive open worlds. Maybe players want that, or maybe again, it's a smaller subset that wants that.

So no, I don't want games made for the majority, I want games that target certain segments.

Topics pop up every day about linear gameplay aka less custom aka dumbed down aka less freedom every single day

And since I've encountered dozens, hundreds and even thousands of MMO players over the years via chat, ventrilo and skype, I feel like i have a fairly good idea what we're all complaining about.

Housing is just an example of many features todays games are lacking because they want to streamline it all and make a pretty box sale.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1875

7/23/13 12:07:36 PM#51
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rusque
[
What you should want is a return to small scale development with games targeting niche crowds with an aim at a lower (but still profitable) return on their game.


 

A business with low return is a business that is not going to last long... Why would any business minded person do that?

I said lower. Not low. It's comparative and it's done all the time.

Micro-breweries are an example of targeting a smaller crowd without expectations that they will earn ROI comparable to Bud or Miller.

Or how about Caterham Cars? Also a small outfit, but as long as they are making enough money to operate a successful business then it's worth doing.

You don't have to earn 500 million USD per year in order to succeed.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/23/13 12:09:11 PM#52
Originally posted by Spector88

Are you all really trying to argue, when game after game is a disapointment

That having more massive immersive, true MMO quality worlds. With things to make it seem more genuine and personal like player housing more guild options guild housing, etc. (These are just an example) than linear, stream lined, quest forced driven gameplay is 'NICHE'

I'm not talking niche. I'm talking making a game that is an MMO

not an ORPG.

 

It's a disappointment to you. Don't act like the rest of the world shares your same opinion, because there aren't even enough people in this thread who share yours.

You haven't added any substance as to what games have done wrong for that matter. All you've done in this thread was bash on games being 'cute' (which I find to be an absurd criticism), make a reasonable statement that games shouldn't be rushed, and then went off on some ridiculous thing about games needing to make a legacy and how new games aren't up to YOUR standard for reasons of which you haven't even so much as elaborated on.

You really don't even entertain the notion that YOU are the niche minority here, and you fail to even understand that businesses WILL NOT CATER TO YOU. We aren't in the age when you can make a successful game in your garage anymore. Most of these games cost 50-200 MILLION dollars. Are you willing to shell out $500 for a game so that developers can cater to the minority and still turn enough profit to survive?

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/23/13 12:11:15 PM#53
Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rusque
[
What you should want is a return to small scale development with games targeting niche crowds with an aim at a lower (but still profitable) return on their game.


 

A business with low return is a business that is not going to last long... Why would any business minded person do that?

I said lower. Not low. It's comparative and it's done all the time.

Micro-breweries are an example of targeting a smaller crowd without expectations that they will earn ROI comparable to Bud or Miller.

Or how about Caterham Cars? Also a small outfit, but as long as they are making enough money to operate a successful business then it's worth doing.

You don't have to earn 500 million USD per year in order to succeed.

It's not smart to try and aim for lower (but still profitable) returns. It's smart to aim for as high as possible returns. The slimmer your returns, the less likely you will survive as a business. You know why most small businesses fail? Because they are aiming for lower (but still profitable) returns all in the sake of building some legacy that ends up not holding them afloat.

  Alumicard

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/01/10
Posts: 167

7/23/13 12:13:25 PM#54
Originally posted by Spector88

.....

You have a point there but you fail to see why it is like it is today. 

*edit: I didnt find a better word for it so the "fail" isnt ment as an attack against you, just to make sure :D

The market has grown so much. Back in '99 there were only UO, EQ and AC. 2D vs 3D with skills vs 3D sandboxy. Today for each of these genres you have sub-sub-sub genres with 5 games each. So to get a costumer you need a game that is easy to learn and delivers some endgame content. But on the other hand you cant invest too much because people will probably leave and play other games.

So to make a "good" game you'd have to have top graphics, flawless combat and a skill system that needs to be better than what was there before. Or at least you need to have a "selling point". But because there were so many games you have to invest time/money to think of something new.

All that costs so much more money than in old games while having an increased risk to lose money.

 

Also check the subcriber numbers. Back in the day 100k was huge. A game with 1m players was massiv and only Asia based games could think of it. Today you get nowhere near AAA with these numbers. 

In addition, most of the MMO players today started with WoW. And as we all know and experienced ourselves: The first MMO is the best! Because so many people think of WoW as the best, it becomes the best and companys see the this mind set works and sells. The whole risk just got reduced significantly.

 Skill, easy quests ,and raids as endgame content. An expansion only raises level cap and gives you new content to reach said new lvl cap. No Bael Zharon (<- bad guy, in game char played by devs) invasion that takes the whole server to defend against. No real negativ consequenses. You dont lose stats, items or anything. Heck, if it takes longer than 30 sec to get back into the action most players a annoyed. That is what people like, that is what gives you money and that is what people will see more of until they stop spending money on games like this. If people like it this way. go for it, if not stop buying DLC and show you want more content in the game not in the shop.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/23/13 12:16:53 PM#55
Originally posted by Alumicard
Originally posted by Spector88

.....

You have a point there but you fail to see why it is like it is today. 

The market has grown so much. Back in '99 there were only UO, EQ and AC. 2D vs 3D with skills vs 3D sandboxy. Today for each of these genres you have sub-sub-sub genres with 5 games each. So to get a costumer you need a game that is easy to learn and delivers some endgame content. But on the other hand you cant invest too much because people will probably leave and play other games.

So to make a "good" game you'd have to have top graphics, flawless combat and a skill system that needs to be better than what was there before. Or at least you need to have a "selling point". But because there were so many games you have to invest time/money to think of something new.

All that costs so much more money than in old games while having an increased risk to lose money.

 

Also check the subcriber numbers. Back in the day 100k was huge. A game with 1m players was massiv and only Asia based games could think of it. Today you get nowhere near AAA with these numbers. 

In addition, most of the MMO players today started with WoW. And as we all know and experienced ourselves: The first MMO is the best! Because so many people think of WoW as the best, it becomes the best and companys see the this mind set works and sells. The whole risk just got reduced significantly.

 Skill, easy quests ,and raids as endgame content. An expansion only raises level cap and gives you new content to reach said new lvl cap. No Bael Zharon (<- bad guy, in game char played by devs) invasion that takes the whole server to defend against. No real negativ consequenses. You dont lose stats, items or anything. Heck, if it takes longer than 30 sec to get back into the action most players a annoyed. That is what people like, that is what gives you money and that is what people will see more of until they stop spending money on games like this. If people like it this way. go for it, if not stop buying DLC and show you want more content in the game not in the shop.

well said, couldn't have said it any better

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7481

7/23/13 12:19:09 PM#56


Originally posted by Rusque

I said lower. Not low. It's comparative and it's done all the time.


Same thing, you either want to maximize your earnings or you do it wrong.

There is no "niche" when it comes to MMOs, it is grossly misused term.

"Niche" does not imply that you target for low(er) earnings, low(er) earnings are a result of business performance. No more no less.

Smaller breweries are not targetting smaller crowd, they are targetting same crowd as anyone else and want to make as much as the big guys.


You don't have to make 500M per year, the point is tho, if you are, the chance you will stay in the business is much higher.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1875

7/23/13 12:27:12 PM#57
Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rusque
[
What you should want is a return to small scale development with games targeting niche crowds with an aim at a lower (but still profitable) return on their game.


 

A business with low return is a business that is not going to last long... Why would any business minded person do that?

I said lower. Not low. It's comparative and it's done all the time.

Micro-breweries are an example of targeting a smaller crowd without expectations that they will earn ROI comparable to Bud or Miller.

Or how about Caterham Cars? Also a small outfit, but as long as they are making enough money to operate a successful business then it's worth doing.

You don't have to earn 500 million USD per year in order to succeed.

It's not smart to try and aim for lower (but still profitable) returns. It's smart to aim for as high as possible returns. The slimmer your returns, the less likely you will survive as a business. You know why most small businesses fail? Because they are aiming for lower (but still profitable) returns all in the sake of building some legacy that ends up not holding them afloat.

Well, I don't know your background, but I can be fairly certain it's not in business. This thread, starting with the OP, is asking for developers to stray away from what they've been doing stating the majority want something else.

Developers have been doing what you've been stating. Aiming for the big bucks. The problem here is that they're attempting to competing in a highly saturated, mature market. It's a terrible business decision to keep trying to compete in a space where you have little chance at holding an advantage over the incumbents.

The correct tactic is to aim at smaller, neglected market segments that can offer a sustainable business model despite not having the capacity to rake in as much cash as the major players.

That's why I provided two very specific examples of smaller companies aiming at small segments being successful. If a microbrewery tried to dethrone Bud, they'd get leveled and would go bankrupt almost instantly. Same for Caterham Cars, they can't afford to compete against the Toyota Corolla, so they don't. They make a certain type of car for enthusiasts and it has served them well thus far. They've been going strong for a long time now.

Most small businesses fail because the people who start them have no concept of what running a business entails, not because they didn't shoot for the stars. People have fundamentally ignorant views on operating costs of businesses so they make rudimentary mistakes and fail because they aren't bringing enough in to cover the costs.

No small business will go under if they're turning a reasonable profit. You open a burger joint and you make 50k-100k profit. Guess what, you covered your costs and you now have a livable salary. Your small business succeeded. It's a very low profit compared to Five Guys, but it's one that means you're doing well and can improve.

 

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1875

7/23/13 12:30:41 PM#58
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rusque

 

I said lower. Not low. It's comparative and it's done all the time.


 

Same thing, you either want to maximize your earnings or you do it wrong.

There is no "niche" when it comes to MMOs, it is grossly misused term.

"Niche" does not imply that you target for low(er) earnings, low(er) earnings are a result of business performance. No more no less.

Smaller breweries are not targetting smaller crowd, they are targetting same crowd as anyone else and want to make as much as the big guys.


You don't have to make 500M per year, the point is tho, if you are, the chance you will stay in the business is much higher.

So you're saying that decades upon decades of marketing and demographics research have all been for naught?

Anyway, it's clear there is no point explaining anything in this thread. So, you win, I'm going to lunch.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3622

7/23/13 12:30:54 PM#59
I doubt many devs today have any free reign at all, at least not ones working for the larger companies.....They are told what to do and what to make and they do it so they get a paycheck.....The reason why we dont see much innovation in this genre is it is a copycat field and whatever makes money is what they will do......The days of making great games for the sake of gaming is gone...When companies invest 100 million plus in a game they want the best return they can get.....If that means stealing ideas from WOW or whomever then they are going to do it......You need look no further than RIft for a game that literally stole identical parts of other games to make their game appealing.
  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6214

7/23/13 12:40:53 PM#60
Great post OP.

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