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MMORPG Game Concepts  » AAA title developers, let me give you some advice.

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74 posts found
  Spector88

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 100

Into the fray...

 
OP  7/22/13 3:40:36 PM#1

I consider myself an MMORPG purist. If there is such a thing.

I've written blogs in the past yadda yadda, basically I started playing MMO's in the mid 90s before I was old enough to have a license. I crushed through english, writing, vocabulary etc, because I was interacting online daily with adults who had no idea who I was other than who I portrayed myself to be. I played in unique, different games, with creative ideas, immersive communities, and fun content.

I understand years go into development of a AAA title, I just don't understand how entire companies can't figure the hell out, what is pretty easily seen.

tldr; AAA titles are being made for a quick buck, and by people trying to be cute, instead of trying to listen to what people want, fill avoid, and make difficult decisions to make a successful long standing game, where people spend their money because they're happy, not because they feel forced to.

First, quit being cute.

Similar to GM's for sports teams, quit trying to pull something out of right field (drafted some nobody with your first pick) and then try to look smart. It's pretty plain to see what the majority of players like and wish for in a game, then make it happen. The most successful companies make it happen, they dont make excuses. What are some of the biggest things players want? They want things like PLAYER HOUSING, yet, only a few games ever have it. They want things like immersive wide open worlds, yet we get this streamlined follow A to B to C to D, kill a few rats, go to C then to B, A. What is this crap? Do you really think anyone is going to feel immersed in a cage and invisible walls?

There is so many innovative ideas out there from games you could use or re-invent. Have any of these idiots played MMORPG's?

Asheron's Call:

Comprehensive allegiance system. Guild housing, mentor/following system involving your mentor getting a % of bonus XP for your allegiance to him and the "guild". This gave benenfits to not only recruit and grow your guild, but to keep people sworn TO YOU, so you get rewards by being good and mentoring THEM.

The Realm Online:

The Realm was one of the first MMORPG's it got 'rare' items right. By creating ultra cool glowing effect, and super rare cosmetic find only items, most games today 15 years later can't even grasp the concept that people want to look and feel badass. Why can't I find a glowing sword, or flaming shield at level 4? We have games coming out in 2013, where you wear the same armor models for 20 levels that look like peasant rags from the 1500's.

These are just two examples, we all have them, there dozens of cool things we would have liked to see picked up.

Open Worlds:

EQ, Asherons Call, Darkfall Online. Why are we not making MMO's more MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER, why are we making them RPG with online elements? Why are we not fighting to control dungeons or resources, why are we not interacting with other people other than click on a PC to teleport to a place to teleport to another place? I'm all for speedy traveling, but you're not making worlds anymore, you're making fantasy call of duty maps.

Secondly, quit rushing games to sell boxes, and then hanging your hat

Every game wants to be the 'WoW' killer, every game wants to be known as a success yadda yadda. The fact is most of these games know they're going to make a majority of their profit within the first 3 months of release. They pump out some disappointing game way too soon, sell a bajillion boxes and then say hey look we're so awesome we sold this many boxes. When really they just pissed off thousands of people with some crap piss poor product. WE KNOW GOOD GAMES WITH STAYING POWER MAKE MONEY. League of Legends is free to play, you know how much of my money I've given them? You know why they're the most played PC game in the world? BECAUSE THEY GET IT. They make a game to be FUN. Then they know the cash will come.

Quit making F2P games Pay2Win, if I LOVED a game, it was balanced, fun, immersive, why wouldn't I spend money on cosmetic items, upgrades, etc. If you could just see past making a quick buck for the love of god.

One of the biggest examples of this comes to mind is Diablo III (not quite an MMO). The game was not ready, it got rushed out, a ton of promises broken, to this day has very little end game, had ANYONE on that mother *#!( staff actually played Inferno at max level, they would have realized you couldnt PAY ME to play it. Furthest thing from fun, immersive, or worth while. But what do I get, all these articles about how many boxes they've sold etc. They should be ashamed, theirproject leader should be fired... Oh wait...

Lastly, and more importantly. Please start making games FOR gamers.

There is way too much 'ACTIVISION' and 'TIME WARNER' in todays MMO world. Way too many people making big development decisions that know nothing about the staying power of a game. I read an article last year when I was sitting in my apocalyptic MMO state, 'games aren't being made for gamers anymore, they're being made for the casual fan'. It is true, games are streamlined, instanced, dumbed down, easier. Look, I'm all for including everyone, but who is going to spread the word? Who is going to wait in line, wear t-shirts, get their friends to buy the game, keep forums, internet reviews positive, and push your game... GAMERS. The dude who buys the game for 40$ and gets to level 5, yeah you made money off him, but making a game stupid enough that someone like that is the only one who enjoys it.. Is just wrong.

Make good games. For gamers. Games you would want to play. WIth ideas you know we want. In ways, we couldn't see coming. Casuals will come, money will come, success will come.

......

Or buy the rights to more asian games and move them to P2W.

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20699

7/22/13 3:44:39 PM#2

My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.

 

  Spector88

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 100

Into the fray...

 
OP  7/22/13 3:47:27 PM#3
Originally posted by nariusseldon

My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.

 

See that's the problem. They may be making money SELLING games, but they aren't building a legacy, or maximizing profit.

You can rush a game out, dumb it down for any idiot off the street, make 5 million off box sales in the first 48 hours, or you can take the right amount of time, make a better game, maybe only sell 2.5million in the first 6 months, but then get a crapload of mouth referals, good reviews, and eventually make 3 times as much and be respected.

 

P.S. if people were that successful right now, please find any sector of the MMO industry that is booming or has a bunch of optimistic people?

 

The genre is dying down. You try to make thar argument when the shelf life of almost every overhyped game on this list is about 4-6 months in the past 5 years. They build up hype, they sell a bunch of boxes, within 6 months the population is less than 20% of launch week. You're telling me thats the way it HAS to be? Please.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2565

7/22/13 3:51:05 PM#4
Originally posted by Spector88

I consider myself an MMORPG purist. If there is such a thing.

I've written blogs in the past yadda yadda, basically I started playing MMO's in the mid 90s before I was old enough to have a license. I crushed through english, writing, vocabulary etc, because I was interacting online daily with adults who had no idea who I was other than who I portrayed myself to be. I played in unique, different games, with creative ideas, immersive communities, and fun content.

I understand years go into development of a AAA title, I just don't understand how entire companies can't figure the hell out, what is pretty easily seen.

tldr; AAA titles are being made for a quick buck, and by people trying to be cute, instead of trying to listen to what people want, fill avoid, and make difficult decisions to make a successful long standing game, where people spend their money because they're happy, not because they feel forced to.

First, quit being cute.

Similar to GM's for sports teams, quit trying to pull something out of right field (drafted some nobody with your first pick) and then try to look smart. It's pretty plain to see what the majority of players like and wish for in a game, then make it happen. The most successful companies make it happen, they dont make excuses. What are some of the biggest things players want? They want things like PLAYER HOUSING, yet, only a few games ever have it. They want things like immersive wide open worlds, yet we get this streamlined follow A to B to C to D, kill a few rats, go to C then to B, A. What is this crap? Do you really think anyone is going to feel immersed in a cage and invisible walls?

There is so many innovative ideas out there from games you could use or re-invent. Have any of these idiots played MMORPG's?

Asheron's Call:

Comprehensive allegiance system. Guild housing, mentor/following system involving your mentor getting a % of bonus XP for your allegiance to him and the "guild". This gave benenfits to not only recruit and grow your guild, but to keep people sworn TO YOU, so you get rewards by being good and mentoring THEM.

The Realm Online:

The Realm was one of the first MMORPG's it got 'rare' items right. By creating ultra cool glowing effect, and super rare cosmetic find only items, most games today 15 years later can't even grasp the concept that people want to look and feel badass. Why can't I find a glowing sword, or flaming shield at level 4? We have games coming out in 2013, where you wear the same armor models for 20 levels that look like peasant rags from the 1500's.

Open Worlds:

EQ, Asherons Call, Darkfall Online. Why are we not making MMO's more MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER, why are we making them RPG with online elements? Why are we not fighting to control dungeons or resources, why are we not interacting with other people other than click on a PC to teleport to a place to teleport to another place? I'm all for speedy traveling, but you're not making worlds anymore, you're making fantasy call of duty maps.

Secondly, quit rushing games to sell boxes, and then hanging your hat

Every game wants to be the 'WoW' killer, every game wants to be known as a success yadda yadda. The fact is most of these games know they're going to make a majority of their profit within the first 3 months of release. They pump out some disappointing game way too soon, sell a bajillion boxes and then say hey look we're so awesome we sold this many boxes. When really they just pissed off thousands of people with some crap piss poor product. WE KNOW GOOD GAMES WITH STAYING POWER MAKE MONEY. League of Legends is free to play, you know how much of my money I've given them? You know why they're the most played PC game in the world? BECAUSE THEY GET IT. They make a game to be FUN. Then they know the cash will come.

Quit making F2P games Pay2Win, if I LOVED a game, it was balanced, fun, immersive, why wouldn't I spend money on cosmetic items, upgrades, etc. If you could just see past making a quick buck for the love of god.

One of the biggest examples of this comes to mind is Diablo III. The game was not ready, it got rushed out, a ton of promises broken, to this day has very little end game, had ANYONE on that mother *#!( staff actually played Inferno at max level, they would have realized you couldnt PAY ME to play it. Furthest thing from fun, immersive, or worth while. But what do I get, all these articles about how many boxes they've sold etc. They should be ashamed, they're project leader should be fired... Oh wait...

Lastly, and more importantly. Please start making games FOR gamers.

There is way too much 'ACTIVISION' and 'TIME WARNER' in todays MMO world. Way too many people making big development decisions that know nothing about the staying power of a game. I read an article last year when I was sitting in my apocalyptic MMO state, 'games aren't being made for gamers anymore, they're being made for the casual fan'. It is true, games are streamlined, instanced, dumbed down, easier. Look, I'm all for including everyone, but who is going to spread the word? Who is going to wait in line, wear t-shirts, get their friends to buy the game, keep forums, internet reviews positive, and push your game... GAMERS. The dude who buys the game for 40$ and gets to level 5, yeah you made money off him, but making a game stupid enough that someone like that is the only one who enjoys it.. Is just wrong.

Make good games. For gamers. Games you would want to play. WIth ideas you know we want. In ways, we couldn't see coming. Casuals will come, money will come, success will come.

......

Or buy the rights to more asian games and move them to P2W.

 

 

Can I laugh here? An MMO purist? Snob yes. Your post is more of a rant and why would a company even listen to a rant.

 

I will use GW2 as an example. I am still wanting Guild Halls and GvG in the game and they said, they were going to put it in. Well, they hit a deadline and if you can't do something right, leave it out, so they did. The same can be said for D3 - it was exactly what I expected it to be. I didn't play it long and felt I got my monies worth. I am hoping for GW2 guild halls soon.

 

Companies will not put out games that don't make money - PERIOD. If you make games for the majority of people, on this site, there will not be enough money made to support the game. That is plain as plain as the nose on your face (I count myself as one also, so don't get your panties in a bunch). 

 

The reason games have be come easier, is the computers are more powerful and you can make programs more complex, up to a point. There is nothing wrong with easy, if it is fun. Fun makes the game for me.

 

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  ElderRat

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/10
Posts: 909

7/22/13 3:52:19 PM#5

Seems MMO's are no longer the cash cow - moba's are the thing now. So, hopefully, the developers who want to make quick money will go there, and the one or 2 that want to make a game for gamers can get down to it.  

 

Currently bored with MMO's.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/22/13 3:53:18 PM#6
Originally posted by Spector88
Lastly, and more importantly. Please start making games FOR gamers.

There is way too much 'ACTIVISION' and 'TIME WARNER' in todays MMO world. Way too many people making big development decisions that know nothing about the staying power of a game. I read an article last year when I was sitting in my apocalyptic MMO state, 'games aren't being made for gamers anymore, they're being made for the casual fan'. It is true, games are streamlined, instanced, dumbed down, easier. Look, I'm all for including everyone, but who is going to spread the word? Who is going to wait in line, wear t-shirts, get their friends to buy the game, keep forums, internet reviews positive, and push your game... GAMERS. The dude who buys the game for 40$ and gets to level 5, yeah you made money off him, but making a game stupid enough that someone like that is the only one who enjoys it.. Is just wrong.

Make good games. For gamers. Games you would want to play. WIth ideas you know we want. In ways, we couldn't see coming. Casuals will come, money will come, success will come.

......

Or buy the rights to more asian games and move them to P2W.

 

 

I always get a kick out of people who say this. I have a good buddy who dislikes the direction of SF4 and says that it's being made for casuals and not for gamers... as he still plays SF4.

There really is a sort of superiority complex from people who claim that they are true gamers, and that games that aren't obliging to some of the original obsurdities are not being made for gamers anymore. Some people absolutely swear that Castlevania 1 was the hardest game ever and that games should be made like it, while being completely unwilling to admit that the majority of the difficulty was because of ass poor controls. Some people liked how in debth the first zelda was while completely forgetting that most of the public had to buy a guide because the game was incredibly cryptic. Some people think that MMO's should go back to the grind while not being willing to admit that spending 6-8 hours to kill one guy is pretty ridiculous.

Gamers hold on to this idea that because they managed, that the horrible design should stay the same. They then go on to parade this attitude that their way is the true way all in spite of the fact that when games DID cater to them, companies flopped.

  syntax42

Elite Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1228

7/22/13 3:57:34 PM#7
If you don't have verifiable credentials, your advice will be ignored.  Since you're posting this on a forum and not a major news web site, it is obvious you are not someone your intended audience will pay attention to.  You might as well be giving a doctor advice on how to perform a surgery, or be telling the NASA people how to launch a shuttle.  It doesn't matter if you're right--you will be promptly ignored for using the wrong communication medium and for not being a person with a significant status.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20699

7/22/13 3:58:10 PM#8
Originally posted by Spector88
Originally posted by nariusseldon

My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.

 

See that's the problem. They may be making money SELLING games, but they aren't building a legacy, or maximizing profit.

How are they not maximizing profits? They should learn to fail to sell games instead?

 

  Xthos

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

7/22/13 4:02:57 PM#9
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Spector88
Originally posted by nariusseldon

My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.

 

See that's the problem. They may be making money SELLING games, but they aren't building a legacy, or maximizing profit.

How are they not maximizing profits? They should learn to fail to sell games instead?

 

If you built a shallow mmo that cannot keep a healthy population, and people jump out of in 2-4 weeks,  then you are not maximizing profit.  The more people you can get to stay and play in a game, the more money you will make.  A lot of the recent mmos have not had a lot of staying power.

  Spector88

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 100

Into the fray...

 
OP  7/22/13 4:09:40 PM#10
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Spector88
Originally posted by nariusseldon

My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.

 

See that's the problem. They may be making money SELLING games, but they aren't building a legacy, or maximizing profit.

How are they not maximizing profits? They should learn to fail to sell games instead?

 

If you built a shallow mmo that cannot keep a healthy population, and people jump out of in 2-4 weeks,  then you are not maximizing profit.  The more people you can get to stay and play in a game, the more money you will make.  A lot of the recent mmos have not had a lot of staying power.

Elegantly put.

 

P.S. i'm not trying to sound like a snob, if I do, I don't care. I'm so sick of the only people I see saying Diablo 3 was great, or SWTOR was great are people who have never played an online game before and never stepped within 100 yards of end game.

They simply make games to sell boxes and make $ and flop out now,

Please direct me to a game/company who's gotten it right in the past 5 years? Maybe a couple.

TERA? NO

D3? NO

WAR? NO

RIFT - just went f2p

LOTRO - had to go f2p

some games get it over time, but it takes them a long time

  Spector88

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 100

Into the fray...

 
OP  7/22/13 4:11:26 PM#11

"If you don't have verifiable credentials, your advice will be ignored.  "

 

I'm not expecting anyone to actually take this post to heart. I don't need credentials, I know I've played more MMORPG's and ORP's than 95% of the game developers. Doesn't mean i'm 100% right and they're 100% wrong, Im just frustrated at the stupid tendencies they all seem to share.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

7/22/13 4:33:40 PM#12

First rule of being an armchair developer: nobody owes you a game.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

7/22/13 4:42:25 PM#13
Originally posted by Spector88

Doesn't mean i'm 100% right and they're 100% wrong, Im just frustrated at the stupid tendencies they all seem to share.

Over my long and winding life, I've come to the conclusion that when I think a professional is being stupid, it's usually because I don't fully understand the situation.

 

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

7/22/13 5:13:26 PM#14
I have to agree with the OP. I think the issue is that the gaming market got overtaken by people who are not involved in the process (ergo, not designers and not developers), so they have a very poor understanding of what makes a game. They also don't like taking risks since that is unstable. Well, it just means they'll never reach WoW. If you only play it safe you are bound to stay mediocre, so quick cash is what you are going to get.

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

7/22/13 6:18:05 PM#15


Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Spector88 Doesn't mean i'm 100% right and they're 100% wrong, Im just frustrated at the stupid tendencies they all seem to share.
Over my long and winding life, I've come to the conclusion that when I think a professional is being stupid, it's usually because I don't fully understand the situation.

 



Maple there is wisdom in your words. But, go ask how smart the team of SWTOR (who got laid off) feel. In many cases, stupid professionals are just that.

OP, I like your post.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20699

7/22/13 7:15:55 PM#16
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Spector88
Originally posted by nariusseldon

My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.

 

See that's the problem. They may be making money SELLING games, but they aren't building a legacy, or maximizing profit.

How are they not maximizing profits? They should learn to fail to sell games instead?

 

If you built a shallow mmo that cannot keep a healthy population, and people jump out of in 2-4 weeks,  then you are not maximizing profit.  The more people you can get to stay and play in a game, the more money you will make.  A lot of the recent mmos have not had a lot of staying power.

Clearly not true.

D3 sold 12M boxes, and made like $720M without requiring a sub, or even be a MMO. I doubt many MMOs can reach that kind of profit levels.

There are plenty of examples of non-sub games making much more money than long terms games.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20699

7/22/13 7:17:18 PM#17
Originally posted by maplestone

First rule of being an armchair developer: nobody owes you a game.

That is right. They talked as if they know anything. May be they should attend one or two GDC talk instead of just dreaming in their bedroom.

 

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/22/13 7:43:05 PM#18
Originally posted by ElderRat

Seems MMO's are no longer the cash cow - moba's are the thing now. So, hopefully, the developers who want to make quick money will go there, and the one or 2 that want to make a game for gamers can get down to it.  

Jumping on the MOBA train is so last year. Developing an online TCG is all the rage now.

Keep up! 

 

:)

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4922

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/22/13 8:25:53 PM#19
So choices are either:

A. Listen to op and get a game that takes 3-10 years togrow a base of players od 50-500k that will stay for years.

Or

B. Don't listen to op,sell 2 million boxes right away and end up with... a base of 50-500K that will stay around for years.

Gotcha.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  thegreatestagain

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/13
Posts: 37

7/22/13 8:27:59 PM#20
i want devs from MIT and harvard and yale to make these games
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