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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?

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352 posts found
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16606

7/19/13 7:06:47 AM#161
Originally posted by Waterlily
 

Oh please, it has nothing to do with who you love, but everything to do with showing the rest of the world what you're attracted to.

Every single love parade and every single gay parade has people half-naked running in the streets shouting the most obscene stuff.

Don't tell me this is about "love", give me a break.

Your sexual orientation has NOTHING to do with MMO. NOTHING, keep that stuff out of my game.

ahh...

so you take what a few people do and then infer that everyone of the same orientation/belief system does the same thing?

So if a few hundred do it then everyone does it?

so, like, when the Klan has a rally then that's indicative of everyone who is white? When a portion of a relgious group decries some segment of society that means everyone of that same belief believes the same way?

I see what you are.

Next time you are in guild chat actually listen to what is being said and you'll see that your sexual orientation can have quite a lot to do with how that group relates. Maybe just not in a way you ever noticed before.

  User Deleted
7/19/13 7:07:46 AM#162
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by evilastro
 

As I said earlier, I am in a raid guild that really doesn't care about it and I happily chat to them about my RL, but threads like this only prove why there is a place for guilds like it.

Seems to me that threads like this prove games, and many game forums, are right to forbid discussion about religion, politics and sexual orientation in public chat.

I agree! They should form a guild where they can discuss it in private...

  Volgore

Tipster

Joined: 6/15/08
Posts: 1703

Posts deleted: 12589457

7/19/13 7:10:40 AM#163

Basicly, nowadays political correctness demands to tolerate a guild that says i.e. "gays only" - but if i'd create a guild saying "no gays", see how fast it would be banned.

Note that this is just an example. I don't have a problem with gay, lesbian or whatever people. I just don't need anyone to rub their orientation into my face when i'm playing a video game to escape just all that crap.

So no, i don't want lesbian/gay/jewish/muslim/whatever-only guilds in the games i play. Take your agenda to where it matters, if at all.

At least in a video game, we should all be the same...there i's enough separation in real life.

 

 

 

 

Back from the banned...again.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2393

There... are... four... lights!

7/19/13 7:14:09 AM#164
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by evilastro
 

As I said earlier, I am in a raid guild that really doesn't care about it and I happily chat to them about my RL, but threads like this only prove why there is a place for guilds like it.

Seems to me that threads like this prove games, and many game forums, are right to forbid discussion about religion, politics and sexual orientation in public chat.

I agree! They should form a guild where they can discuss it in private...

Pretty much what many people are saying here - including waterlily and myself. That includes not spamming public in game chat with "hey look at us, we are a gay guild, join us!".

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

7/19/13 7:14:50 AM#165
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Adalwulff
If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.

 

Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.




The odds of any guild being created not being mostly white, heterosexual and probably male is pretty close to zero. Creating a 'white, hetero' guild would be pointless. That already exists. There's no need to try and create a separate space.

I don't think guilds based on race would be allowed in any game. Race is a different can of worms, one that I don't think any developer wants to open. I'm not sure about an all female and all male guild. Again though, all male guilds already exist, there's no need to try and create a separate space for them.

One of the social aspects of guilds is finding people who may share common interests or who may have had the same experiences as the other people in the guild outside of the game. The guild I was in was composed of people who all worked for one company. We shared a common interest. From what I can see, this is the main point of a religious or LBGT guilds. Finding people who share a common interest or experiences when doing so otherwise would be nearly impossible in game.

 

 

Wrong, and its exactly the problem!!

How can you say any guild right now is ALL WHITE OR ALL HETERO? How can you say that for sure, because the odds are that there is a mix of races and genders, and also some gays Im sure.

So you are wrong, the problem is people like you assuming everything is white and hetero.

Look, its real simple, you either give everyone the same respect and allow them to congregate by whatever group they want too, or you don't allow anyone to congregate.

Anything less is racism, sexism or phobia. Period!

  User Deleted
7/19/13 7:15:13 AM#166
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Waterlily
Every single love parade and every single gay parade has people half-naked running in the streets shouting the most obscene stuff.

I don't want to get to deeply into this delicate debate, but all those events in no way represent the vast majority of homosexual people. Those are ridiculous clown parades which have nothing to do with being homosexual. Most homosexual people find those things just as ridiculous as we heterosexual people do.

I think you missed Waterlilly's point.. She didn't say or imply that those clowns are representative of the community.. What I heard is "keep it private" and don't cause attention drama......  Anyways

You both missed the point that they are keeping it private by creating a community that is accepting of how they were born, so they aren't creating drama in another guild by exposing themselves to those clowns who will create drama about it.

again.. the point is keep it private.. I don't want the KKK out having parades, or making guilds promoting their BS..  Using the excuse of creating "awareness" is just sugar coating it..  I don't care if there is a GL guild, but do you need to label yourself as "GAY PRIDE" guild tag?  Knowing damn well it's going to draw attention and from the wrong people.... See my point?

 

Uhh they don't? Most GLBT guilds have lore appropriate names. On Neverwinter it was Feyguard. On FFIV its Noctis Crystallum. How are those even close to 'Gay Pride'? And even if they were, so what? Noone should be ashamed of the way they were born.

Lots of people in my guild are husband / wife combos. Should I be telling them to keep it private?

If it draws attention from the wrong people then it further proves my point.  There are losers out there who are full of hatred towards the LGBT community, which is why they are justified in seeking a sanctum from those aholes while they play videogames in their downtime.

  Waterlily

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2875

7/19/13 7:23:08 AM#167
Originally posted by Sovrath

ahh...

so you take what a few people do and then infer that everyone of the same orientation/belief system does the same thing?

So if a few hundred do it then everyone does it?

so, like, when the Klan has a rally then that's indicative of everyone who is white? When a portion of a relgious group decries some segment of society that means everyone of that same belief believes the same way?

I see what you are.

Next time you are in guild chat actually listen to what is being said and you'll see that your sexual orientation can have quite a lot to do with how that group relates. Maybe just not in a way you ever noticed before.

A guilt trip isn't going to work on me.  I have nothing against gay people.

But what we don't allow is sexual discussions in our guild, this includes sexual orientation. If you want tell people you're gay that's fine, no one will judge you for it, but if you want to cry wolf about the fact you're gay and think you need any form of special treatment, or special group, then that's not ok, everyone is an equal.

What I do think should be possible, is that people with disabilities come together in a guild, there was a guild with deaf people once, I think that's awesome. They have a disability, they can relate, and they are not trying to cause drama, they are only grouped to support each other.

But if your goal is to be like everyone else, and to be treated like everyone else, then don't blame everyone else if you deliberately choose to distance yourself from everyone else. The only thing you're doing is knowingly causing drama, which is a good way to kill your guild and a great way for people to be less tolerant towards you instead of more.

 

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16606

7/19/13 7:29:32 AM#168
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Sovrath

ahh...

so you take what a few people do and then infer that everyone of the same orientation/belief system does the same thing?

So if a few hundred do it then everyone does it?

so, like, when the Klan has a rally then that's indicative of everyone who is white? When a portion of a relgious group decries some segment of society that means everyone of that same belief believes the same way?

I see what you are.

Next time you are in guild chat actually listen to what is being said and you'll see that your sexual orientation can have quite a lot to do with how that group relates. Maybe just not in a way you ever noticed before.

A guilt trip isn't going to work on me.  I have nothing against gay people.

But what we don't allow is sexual discussions in our guild, this includes sexual orientation. If you want tell people you're gay that's fine, but if you want to cry wolf about the fact you're gay and think you need any form of special treatment, or special group, then that's not ok, everyone is an equal.

What I do think should be possible, is that people with disabilities come together in a guild, there was a guild with deaf people once, I think that's awesome. They have a disability, they can relate, and they are not trying to cause drama, they are only grouped to support each other.

But if your goal is to be like everyone else, and to be treated like everyone, then don't blame everyone else if you deliberately choose to distance yourself from everyone else. The only thing you're doing is knowingly causing drama, which is a good way to kill your guild and a great way for people to be less tolerant towards you than more.

 

You are not getting it.

In many cases it has nothign to do with sexual discussion. We dont' have sexual discussions in the guilds I belong to and they are heterosexual for the most part.

It does have to do with people saying things like "going to meet my wife" when they are a woman or of someone says "my boyfriend and I..." when they are a man, and then receiving ridicule, derision, being excluded etc.

gay/lesbian/religious guilds DO allow others in. They just want people to know that certain belief systems are accepted and celebrated.

If I was religious and was going to a nieces communion and I say just as much I don't want to have some assh*les start grilling me on religion and why it's this and that.

Especially when, though not being a believer at all, I know so many amazing people of faith who do not represent some of the negative stereotypes that are out there.

  Waterlily

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2875

7/19/13 7:37:36 AM#169
Originally posted by Sovrath

 

gay/lesbian/religious guilds DO allow others in. They just want people to know that certain belief systems are accepted and celebrated.

What does celebreating beliefs have to do with MMO. Should we have christian and muslim guilds too?

The best way for gay people to be accepted like everyone is to act like everyone else, that means joining a regular guild..and if certain people are intolerant towards you then tell an officer or a GM.

What is not going to help you get accepted is deliberately distancing yourself from the community into guilds based on sexual orientation, that only leaves you more vulnerable to ridicule, and frankly that's what some are looking for, some people look for drama on purpose.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 4720

7/19/13 7:38:34 AM#170
In all the games i've played i havent really noticed an issue with LGBT's, but then its hardly the dark ages anymore, sexual preference should not ever be an issue anyway, if anything i am more concerned about 'religious' orientated guilds, those i definitely steer well clear of, i have to admit i really don't understand what motivates them, and i probably wouldnt like knowing if i did, religious types they always seem to be looking to 'save people' or something equally as ridiculous, that just causes trouble imo. Honestly, i look forward to a future that has left religion in the past.
  Giddian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/03/06
Posts: 430

7/19/13 7:42:32 AM#171
Originally posted by lizardbones

This article on Massively: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/07/18/ask-massively-taboo-topics/

talks about the subject of "themed" guilds, in particular, guilds with a religious focus or a LGBT focus. Really, the guild is focused on gaming, but you know what I mean.

It has never occurred to me to be offended or really even care about this type of thing. If people want a guild that's friendly towards a particular religion or orientation, as long as they aren't militant, exclusive based on that religion or orientation and as long as they have good taste in public chat, I don't feel like i need to spend a lot of time thinking about it. Until I read the article.

It seems awhile back that Blizzard was going to ban guilds based on a LBGT charter, but backlash from the world or the gaming community caused them to reverse the decision quickly. This honestly surprises me. Given the nature of WoW's chat channels, I'm kind of surprised they would even consider that stance.

So, what do you think? Do religious guilds ruin your immersion in a game? What about LBGT guilds? Are there even that many guilds that advertise themselves based on a given religion or orientation?

Also, I realize this is a topic that could go south quickly, but in the spirit of conversation, try to avoid talking about specific religions or people, and focus on guilds. If things do go pear shaped, my apologies.

 It doesn't bother me.

As far as the chat channels go, have you seen some of the racists Comments and Smut being said? A little god is maybe what it needs.    LOL

  User Deleted
7/19/13 7:42:50 AM#172
Originally posted by Waterlily

The best way for gay people to be accepted like everyone is to act like everyone else

 

This is why you are part of the problem.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18360

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/19/13 7:42:56 AM#173
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by lizardbones

This article on Massively: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/07/18/ask-massively-taboo-topics/
.

Same as my place of work, we do not discuss Religion or Politics. They fuel wars and only cause problems eventually. Also, in every EULA or TOS I have read those two items have no place in any of the games on the market.  They have political forums and religious places of worship for that kind of thing.

Interestingly enough, at my employer there are Employee Networking groups that cover a wide variety of special interests including:

Employees with disabilities

Latino/Hispanic

Asian/Pacific Islanders

African American

Early Career professionals

LGBT

Admin Professionals

Veterans

Women

Junior Women

Working Families

Public speaking

While we all strive to further the goals of the business, people definitely split off into groups which advocate certain positions and causes.  They are all inclusive and in fact we are encouraged to join and support groups we're not necessarily a target member for, but fact remains people enjoy associating based on perceived common interest.

So it is not surprising they want to do the same while gaming, it makes them feel comfortable and helps people understand the focus and motivations of the people who are part of them.

EVE is famous for having very specialized corporations that focus on things such as roleplaying, finance, piracy, scamming, drug running (yes, this is true) mission running, banking etc.  There are even a couple of religious based ones as well.

 

 

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  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

7/19/13 7:48:44 AM#174
Originally posted by Volgore

Basicly, nowadays political correctness demands to tolerate a guild that says i.e. "gays only" - but if i'd create a guild saying "no gays", see how fast it would be banned.

A guild that says "Gay only" is probably not allowed in Most MMOs, which is why you are highly unlikely to see such a restriction.

 

What you will see and what you currently do see is "gay friendly" guilds.

 

Facts. Use 'em. They help move discussion - and thinking - forward.

  hugtime4ever

Novice Member

Joined: 10/31/10
Posts: 41

7/19/13 7:54:34 AM#175

this.

 

 

Looking forward to ArcheAge, Dragon's Prophet and uhh.. Uhh....
playing: Civ 5, Torchlight 2, Tony Hawk Pro Skater HD, FTL.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

7/19/13 7:55:07 AM#176
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by lizardbones

Originally posted by Adalwulff
If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.

Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.




The odds of any guild being created not being mostly white, heterosexual and probably male is pretty close to zero. Creating a 'white, hetero' guild would be pointless. That already exists. There's no need to try and create a separate space.

I don't think guilds based on race would be allowed in any game. Race is a different can of worms, one that I don't think any developer wants to open. I'm not sure about an all female and all male guild. Again though, all male guilds already exist, there's no need to try and create a separate space for them.

One of the social aspects of guilds is finding people who may share common interests or who may have had the same experiences as the other people in the guild outside of the game. The guild I was in was composed of people who all worked for one company. We shared a common interest. From what I can see, this is the main point of a religious or LBGT guilds. Finding people who share a common interest or experiences when doing so otherwise would be nearly impossible in game.

 

Wrong, and its exactly the problem!!

How can you say any guild right now is ALL WHITE OR ALL HETERO? How can you say that for sure, because the odds are that there is a mix of races and genders, and also some gays Im sure.

So you are wrong, the problem is people like you assuming everything is white and hetero.

Look, its real simple, you either give everyone the same respect and allow them to congregate by whatever group they want too, or you don't allow anyone to congregate.

Anything less is racism, sexism or phobia. Period!

That was an amazing response. Not only did you show a complete inability to comprehend anything said in this thread so far, but you've even completely misinterpreted the very post that you quoted and have sitting right in front of you.

A gem of a post, Adalwulff! Looking forward to your next one.

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5143

7/19/13 7:55:51 AM#177
Freedom of association is a natural right. I don't need to know or understand  why people associate with the people they do and I don't care. So neither Yay nor Nay. Leave people be works for me.

"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law

  Kreedz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/11
Posts: 440

7/19/13 7:59:18 AM#178

I think its great that players can find these niche guilds to be a part of, but there comes a point where certain guilds take it a step too far, and start discriminating against non-gay/religious/ethnic groups of people.

I believe in the freedom of choice though, and wish people could just live their lives without trying to push an agenda or their ideals on other people.

 

We get it... Youre Gay/Religious/Black/White/Hispanic/etc.. Now move on with your life and get off that soapbox. No one cares about your lifestyle choices anymore.

"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

  arieste

Elite Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3300

7/19/13 8:03:29 AM#179
Originally posted by Beanpuie

Religious and LGBT guilds?    If they respect whatever game they are on and their rules, then i dont see a problem.

i see them as no more different than a  All  Roleplay guild,  or a All Military Veteran Guild,  or a All Girl Gamers guild, just a conglomerate of folks  with like minded goals/beliefs having fun.

if people can tolerate  Brony guilds and Bieber Guilds, then this shouldnt be a issue.

 

+1.  Freedom of association and all that.  If you want to put together a guild of snow-worshipping siberian goat farmers, more power to you.  

 

From a personal standpoint, I think it's this type of thing that contributes to continuing tensions in the world.  The sooner we stop labelling ourselves as something, the sooner the boundaries and stigmas disappear.    The world has gone from fighting to abolish segregation to segregating themselves by choice and I don't see it as a good thing.  That being said, there are other ways of looking at it and if you feel more comfortable with really really really likeminded people, go for it.

 

The religious thing always amuses me, nothing like a group of "devout <whatever>" playing an online game that (usually) encourages the worship of pagan religions (most Fantasy type games do).

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  Brabbit1987

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 613

7/19/13 8:11:33 AM#180

I never even realized this could ever come up as an issue to begin with. I never really introduce my sexual orientation to anyone in game as I never found a need to. Actually I can't really figure out any point in time I would, unless someone specifically asked for what ever reason. That is just me though. It's also the same way I am in real life too.

However, this does not mean I think there is anything wrong with LGBT guilds, majority I have seen allow anyone into the guild, as long as they are friendly and not looking to cause issue.

Also people need to realize, it is a social game. Why should people keep their lives out of a game that includes social elements? If you don't like to see these things, maybe you should be playing a single player game XD.

As for religion, same thing. As long as they are not going around trying to change people, I don't see any problem with it.

This is how things work in real life society, why would this not exist in a game that includes .... society. The people playing the game are the same people that exist in real life, so really, it should be expected.

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