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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?

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352 posts found
  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

7/19/13 8:12:03 AM#181
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Beanpuie

Religious and LGBT guilds?    If they respect whatever game they are on and their rules, then i dont see a problem.

i see them as no more different than a  All  Roleplay guild,  or a All Military Veteran Guild,  or a All Girl Gamers guild, just a conglomerate of folks  with like minded goals/beliefs having fun.

if people can tolerate  Brony guilds and Bieber Guilds, then this shouldnt be a issue.

 

+1.  Freedom of association and all that.  If you want to put together a guild of snow-worshipping siberian goat farmers, more power to you.  

 

From a personal standpoint, I think it's this type of thing that contributes to continuing tensions in the world.  The sooner we stop labelling ourselves as something, the sooner the boundaries and stigmas disappear.    The world has gone from fighting to abolish segregation to segregating themselves by choice and I don't see it as a good thing.  That being said, there are other ways of looking at it and if you feel more comfortable with really really really likeminded people, go for it.

 

The religious thing always amuses me, nothing like a group of "devout " playing an online game that (usually) encourages the worship of pagan religions (most Fantasy type games do).

 

Yes people should be able to associate and form whatever groups they want too, snow worshipping goat herders would be awesome!

BUT, I disagree with your premise that this is what makes people hate each other. This kind of thinking has to go!

What we need is more respect for our individual choices. Our media and our govt needs to push this idea, instead of criminalizing people who don't conform to the mantra "we are all the same". Because we are not all the same!

Its all about respect, and it has to go for everyone, or it wont work.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10578

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  7/19/13 8:28:03 AM#182


Originally posted by Adalwulff

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Adalwulff If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.   Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.
The odds of any guild being created not being mostly white, heterosexual and probably male is pretty close to zero. Creating a 'white, hetero' guild would be pointless. That already exists. There's no need to try and create a separate space. I don't think guilds based on race would be allowed in any game. Race is a different can of worms, one that I don't think any developer wants to open. I'm not sure about an all female and all male guild. Again though, all male guilds already exist, there's no need to try and create a separate space for them. One of the social aspects of guilds is finding people who may share common interests or who may have had the same experiences as the other people in the guild outside of the game. The guild I was in was composed of people who all worked for one company. We shared a common interest. From what I can see, this is the main point of a religious or LBGT guilds. Finding people who share a common interest or experiences when doing so otherwise would be nearly impossible in game.  
 

Wrong, and its exactly the problem!!

How can you say any guild right now is ALL WHITE OR ALL HETERO? How can you say that for sure, because the odds are that there is a mix of races and genders, and also some gays Im sure.

So you are wrong, the problem is people like you assuming everything is white and hetero.

Look, its real simple, you either give everyone the same respect and allow them to congregate by whatever group they want too, or you don't allow anyone to congregate.

Anything less is racism, sexism or phobia. Period!




I didn't say all hetero. I said 'mostly'. The odds that a guild will be composed mostly of hetero males by chance is very high. The odds that a guild will be composed of non-hetero mix of males and females is very low. I would say, "Zero", but there's always a chance it could happen. Well, at least in the U.S. Can't really speak for even Western Europe.

So no, I'm not wrong. Do a little research on your own instead of whatever you used in place of research.

Also, leave race out of the discussion. Gamers for the most part are non-racial, unless the race includes some sort of stat bonus.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2738

There... are... four... lights!

7/19/13 8:32:03 AM#183
Originally posted by Adalwulff
 

BUT, I disagree with your premise that this is what makes people hate each other. This kind of thinking has to go!

Communitarianism is definitely a source of problems and misunderstanding between people, like it or not.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Four0Six

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1096

7/19/13 8:33:31 AM#184
Originally posted by lizardbones

 





 

 






Also, leave race out of the discussion. Gamers for the most part are non-racial, unless the race includes some sort of stat bonus.

 

Not me, total racist. I HATE Elves beyond any stat bonus. End of story. With their "high and mighty", "we are better than the humans", "we could fix the dying world, but wont".....stupid pointy ears.......

 

 

 

hehe,

 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2738

There... are... four... lights!

7/19/13 8:34:54 AM#185
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by lizardbones

 





 

 






Also, leave race out of the discussion. Gamers for the most part are non-racial, unless the race includes some sort of stat bonus.

 

Not me, total racist. I HATE Elves beyond any stat bonus. End of story. With their "high and mighty", "we are better than the humans", "we could fix the dying world, but wont".....stupid pointy ears.......

 

 

 

hehe,

 

Sounds like Vulcans... =P

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Heafstagg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/02/06
Posts: 166

7/19/13 8:38:05 AM#186

As long as religious groups are not spreading around crazy religious dogma, I could care less. There is zero valid, logical reason that is not associated with bigotry or religion that would pertain to having an issue with an LBGT guild, so don't see why not either.

Pretty much, I don't see a problem with either. If they mind their business, I don't see why other people can't mind theirs.

  User Deleted
7/19/13 8:40:46 AM#187

They exist because there are guilds out there that will kick you from their gaming community if you are gay.  There are guilds that use homophobic slurs or racial ones or religious ones.  Some people don't want to deal with that crap or associate with others that are like that.  It's really not that hard to understand.  I guess maybe it might be hard for someone that has never had to deal with being a minority in a community.  Lack of empathy is the major problem for people having an objection.

For the record most LGBTQ communities are also + ally.  Meaning they are about inclusion, not exclusion.  Many of the religious ones are the same way.  People just don't want to deal with bigots.  Imagine that.

  Four0Six

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1096

7/19/13 8:40:51 AM#188
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by lizardbones

 





 

 






Also, leave race out of the discussion. Gamers for the most part are non-racial, unless the race includes some sort of stat bonus.

 

Not me, total racist. I HATE Elves beyond any stat bonus. End of story. With their "high and mighty", "we are better than the humans", "we could fix the dying world, but wont".....stupid pointy ears.......

 

 

 

hehe,

 

Sounds like Vulcans... =P

Yup them too, all those Vulcans are "space elves"     off topic: I find it rather a let down when one realizes there is very little that could actually be considered new an unique IP, when it comes to media. maybe it speaks to the masses and how they generally stand against what they don't know or understand. May favorite example is to break down the Star Wars IP, as not Science Fiction, but as fantasy. Just because the sword glows and the blaster doesn't shoot arrows.....

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2738

There... are... four... lights!

7/19/13 8:46:25 AM#189
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by lizardbones

 





 

 






Also, leave race out of the discussion. Gamers for the most part are non-racial, unless the race includes some sort of stat bonus.

 

Not me, total racist. I HATE Elves beyond any stat bonus. End of story. With their "high and mighty", "we are better than the humans", "we could fix the dying world, but wont".....stupid pointy ears.......

 

 

 

hehe,

 

Sounds like Vulcans... =P

Yup them too, all those Vulcans are "space elves"     off topic: I find it rather a let down when one realizes there is very little that could actually be considered new an unique IP, when it comes to media. maybe it speaks to the masses and how they generally stand against what they don't know or understand. May favorite example is to break down the Star Wars IP, as not Science Fiction, but as fantasy. Just because the sword glows and the blaster doesn't shoot arrows.....

Well, you have to put the limit somewhere, otherwise you may as well call "Die Hard" or "Apocalypse Now" fantasy, just because the guns don't shoot arrows either...

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17129

7/19/13 8:47:20 AM#190
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Sovrath

 

gay/lesbian/religious guilds DO allow others in. They just want people to know that certain belief systems are accepted and celebrated.

What does celebreating beliefs have to do with MMO. Should we have christian and muslim guilds too?

The best way for gay people to be accepted like everyone is to act like everyone else, that means joining a regular guild..and if certain people are intolerant towards you then tell an officer or a GM.

What is not going to help you get accepted is deliberately distancing yourself from the community into guilds based on sexual orientation, that only leaves you more vulnerable to ridicule, and frankly that's what some are looking for, some people look for drama on purpose.

I wouldn't disagree that there are people looking for drama. You find those people in all walks of life. Sometimes they are the people who at one point indulged in a certain thing and then they suddenly "found religion" and then they go on their witchhunts.

Juding a whole group by the few bad people in that group isn't really the way to go.

As far as "celebrating beliefs" don't take that too literally. More like "hey guys, I won't be in the guild events for the next few weeks because I'm getting married" and it's a same sex marriage. Or

"hey guys, I won't be in guild events for the next few weeks because I"m taking a religous retreat";

"where";

"At xyz religious camp"; oh I know that place, spent a week there a few years ago"

Though I don't know everything about my guild members (in any guild I've been in) I can say that eventually, over the years, you get to know who is married, who used to be married, who doesn't drink, who likes sky diving, etc. This stuff comes up in conversation all the time. Being able to have this stuff come up and not be judged or ridiculed is kind of important don't you think?

Your statment about people not calling attention to themselves is more about you. You assume that these guilds are distnacing themselves from the community but that's not true at all. they group with and interact with the rest of the community just fine. They just are more accpeting of their members should things come up in conversation.

How many times have you mentioned, just briefly in passing a significant other in guild chat "oh, wife's home got to go" or "oh, my husband just made dinner" and probably thought nothing of it. Now imagine you letting that drop and suddenly you are a pariah.

  Four0Six

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1096

7/19/13 8:50:55 AM#191
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by lizardbones

 





 

 






Also, leave race out of the discussion. Gamers for the most part are non-racial, unless the race includes some sort of stat bonus.

 

Not me, total racist. I HATE Elves beyond any stat bonus. End of story. With their "high and mighty", "we are better than the humans", "we could fix the dying world, but wont".....stupid pointy ears.......

 

 

 

hehe,

 

Sounds like Vulcans... =P

Yup them too, all those Vulcans are "space elves"     off topic: I find it rather a let down when one realizes there is very little that could actually be considered new an unique IP, when it comes to media. maybe it speaks to the masses and how they generally stand against what they don't know or understand. May favorite example is to break down the Star Wars IP, as not Science Fiction, but as fantasy. Just because the sword glows and the blaster doesn't shoot arrows.....

Well, you have to put the limit somewhere, otherwise you may as well call "Die Hard" or "Apocalypse Now" fantasy, just because the guns don't shoot arrows either...

Except Bruce Willis doesn't cast any magic spells. Brando just thinks he can. Rambo walks the line, but again no casting of spells.

Enough of the thread-jack though

  Four0Six

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1096

7/19/13 8:55:50 AM#192
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Sovrath

 

gay/lesbian/religious guilds DO allow others in. They just want people to know that certain belief systems are accepted and celebrated.

What does celebreating beliefs have to do with MMO. Should we have christian and muslim guilds too?

The best way for gay people to be accepted like everyone is to act like everyone else, that means joining a regular guild..and if certain people are intolerant towards you then tell an officer or a GM.

What is not going to help you get accepted is deliberately distancing yourself from the community into guilds based on sexual orientation, that only leaves you more vulnerable to ridicule, and frankly that's what some are looking for, some people look for drama on purpose.

I wouldn't disagree that there are people looking for drama. You find those people in all walks of life. Sometimes they are the people who at one point indulged in a certain thing and then they suddenly "found religion" and then they go on their witchhunts.

Juding a whole group by the few bad people in that group isn't really the way to go.

As far as "celebrating beliefs" don't take that too literally. More like "hey guys, I won't be in the guild events for the next few weeks because I'm getting married" and it's a same sex marriage. Or

"hey guys, I won't be in guild events for the next few weeks because I"m taking a religous retreat";

"where";

"At xyz religious camp"; oh I know that place, spent a week there a few years ago"

Though I don't know everything about my guild members (in any guild I've been in) I can say that eventually, over the years, you get to know who is married, who used to be married, who doesn't drink, who likes sky diving, etc. This stuff comes up in conversation all the time. Being able to have this stuff come up and not be judged or ridiculed is kind of important don't you think?

Your statment about people not calling attention to themselves is more about you. You assume that these guilds are distnacing themselves from the community but that's not true at all. they group with and interact with the rest of the community just fine. They just are more accpeting of their members should things come up in conversation.

How many times have you mentioned, just briefly in passing a significant other in guild chat "oh, wife's home got to go" or "oh, my husband just made dinner" and probably thought nothing of it. Now imagine you letting that drop and suddenly you are a pariah.

I think it is more of "I have to deal with X bigot bastard all day busting my belief of orientation". I want to play a game to get away form that, and by joining a guild with "like-minds", I keep that to a minimum.

 

Mostly though the question should be, "Is that LGBT, Jesus Freak, Meatatarian, FSM worshiping, guild hurting me?" I suspect the answer is, "Hell NO!". If they are, then Block/Ignore/Report.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2738

There... are... four... lights!

7/19/13 8:56:54 AM#193
Originally posted by Four0Six

Except Bruce Willis doesn't cast any magic spells.

That remains to be proven... he survives impossible things, I'm sure he has a self rez spell, maybe a soulstone... and come on, killing an helicopter with a car, that's pure magic! ;-)

Enough of the thread-jack though

Ditto - but I think the thread badly needed a more light hearted interlude ;-)

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Four0Six

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1096

7/19/13 8:59:45 AM#194
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Four0Six

Except Bruce Willis doesn't cast any magic spells.

That remains to be proven... he survives impossible things, I'm sure he has a self rez spell, maybe a soulstone... and come on, killing an helicopter with a car, that's pure magic! ;-)

Enough of the thread-jack though

Ditto - but I think the thread badly needed a more light hearted interlude ;-)

Agree.

My jaw hit the floor today when I saw it was still up. There is a warning I think no later than page 2, yet here we are on like 20. I don't know weather to be amazed or let down.

 

Hehe

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17129

7/19/13 9:00:36 AM#195
Originally posted by Four0Six
 

I think it is more of "I have to deal with X bigot bastard all day busting my belief of orientation". I want to play a game to get away form that, and by joining a guild with "like-minds", I keep that to a minimum.

 

Mostly though the question should be, "Is that LGBT, Jesus Freak, Meatatarian, FSM worshiping, guild hurting me?" I suspect the answer is, "Hell NO!". If they are, then Block/Ignore/Report.

I can't tell you how many times, in Lineage 2, I would hear people bashing people of other religions, racial groups, or sexual orientation. Not in my guild but in party chat, and at the end in one alliance.

And it didn't always manifest itself as a tirade of an attack. Sometimes just calling some one a "faggot" or making innapropriate jokes using one group as a scape goat.

At some point that just got tiring. And I wasn't even a part of slandered group.

 

  Roguewiz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/01/02
Posts: 502

When a Kender says "oops!"; its already too late.

7/19/13 9:06:10 AM#196

If people would act like adults and not children that feel that can says or do whatever they want in an MMO, themed guilds wouldn't be necessary.  I mean seriously, do you really have to talk like a sailor in order to relax in a game?  Is it really necessary to talk about your junk or some other potentially offending part of your anatomy, or some other potentially offending topic?

This is an MMO.  We don't need to know about who you slept with last night, what your poo smells like, or your opinions of whatever topic you decide to speak about.  If it's important, take it to tells or make a chat channel.  We don't want to hear about Chuck Norris or your stupid Murlock.

To that end, I understand why like-minded individuals would choose to avoid the general MMO populace.  Personally, I wouldn't join a themed guild (unless it was roleplaying, then I might consider it), however I'm also not the type of person they would avoid.  I would like to avoid most of the gamers now-a-days, but I really hate soloing, so I deal with it

I blame Blizzard.  They made a game that is so accessible, that people who you'd rather smack their mother for giving birth to them are playing this game.

Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Everquest, Hearthstone, League of Legends
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next, Everquest Next Landmark, Archeage

The secret to making a great game: Don't cater to the masses!

  Four0Six

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1096

7/19/13 9:12:23 AM#197
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Four0Six
 

I think it is more of "I have to deal with X bigot bastard all day busting my belief of orientation". I want to play a game to get away form that, and by joining a guild with "like-minds", I keep that to a minimum.

 

Mostly though the question should be, "Is that LGBT, Jesus Freak, Meatatarian, FSM worshiping, guild hurting me?" I suspect the answer is, "Hell NO!". If they are, then Block/Ignore/Report.

I can't tell you how many times, in Lineage 2, I would hear people bashing people of other religions, racial groups, or sexual orientation. Not in my guild but in party chat, and at the end in one alliance.

And it didn't always manifest itself as a tirade of an attack. Sometimes just calling some one a "faggot" or making innapropriate jokes using one group as a scape goat.

At some point that just got tiring. And I wasn't even a part of slandered group.

 

Exactly why people gravitate to these "defined groups". The LGBT community hates the terms, "gay" and "faggot" (in my experience). This is the primary difference between the LGBT guilds, and say a HC Raiding guild. In one's VOIP you will hear these terms in one you wont. The same goes with the "Churchies". Except they have different terms. Let alone the open attacks you find.

 

We live in a society that is VERY unaccepting. It is something we struggle with as humans. The problem is too often the "tolerance" that is taught is one sided. Since to be truly tolerant, one would have to "turn the other cheek", to turn a phrase. Yet all these groups, almost always "hate" the opposing group.

 

Me, I am a Libertarian. As long as you don't harm me or my family, feel free to do what ya like.

 

I actually like having groups label themselves. It saves me from having to "find out the hard way", we have irreconcilable differences. Kind of like how I like racist jokes, since the let me know who is racist, so I can avoid them.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17129

7/19/13 9:12:40 AM#198
Originally posted by Roguewiz

If people would act like adults and not children that feel that can says or do whatever they want in an MMO, themed guilds wouldn't be necessary.  I mean seriously, do you really have to talk like a sailor in order to relax in a game?  Is it really necessary to talk about your junk or some other potentially offending part of your anatomy, or some other potentially offending topic?

+1 exactly.

  noturpal

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/09
Posts: 131

7/19/13 9:20:11 AM#199

 

It's inncredibly saddening and maddening to see topics like this in a place like this. What amazes me most about every generation after generation X is the total lack of human experience you are either robbed of or just don't get while your young.

 

A guild is a totally abstract human idea. A guild has no contraints, it can be w/e it wants to be an you can't say a fucking thing because it's just an idea. A guild can be as elitiest as it wants and the only real thing that matters is if the idea exists or it doesn't.

 

A guild could be nurders only and your opinion still wouldn't matter.

 

Why don't all you kiddies get your skill up so we can play some good games again, instead of making idiotic posts like this.

 

Your entire generation is bad for gaming GO AWAY!

 

p.s. that includes the tools at massively

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2738

There... are... four... lights!

7/19/13 9:22:54 AM#200
Originally posted by Four0Six

The LGBT community hates the terms, "gay" and "faggot" (in my experience).

I agree on the second word (obvious), but I have doubts about the first... if they hate the word, why are they calling a "major" event "gay pride"?

Something I don't understand is the over-abuse of those words among English speakers... are Americans and UK people really that insecure about their own sexuality that they have to use those words in every other sentence to prove their "manhood"? (exaggerating of course, but you got the point).

I'm not a native English speaker myself, and I don't think I've ever used any of those words.

 

Originally posted by noturpal 

Your entire generation is bad for gaming GO AWAY!

According to your profile, you're one of the youngest to post in this thread... whose generation are you talking about?

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

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