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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » POLL: Do you want an aggro managment in EQN?

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154 posts found
  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/18/13 10:53:05 PM#141
Originally posted by Pneuma001
Originally posted by Gallus85

You gave the definition of playing.  Not a game.

A game is not a game unless: It has rules that other players must follow.  A goal.  And has an unpredictable winner.

If any of these are not present, it is not a game.  It is playing, killing time, a pastime, etc.  Which are fine, but it's not a game.

Having fun does not make something a game.  I might have fun programming code.  That does not make it a game.

Your idea of a good combat system.  Your "If Dps goes to hard...." example.  Is predictable.  You can gauge your actions and know what the AI enemy is going to do.  That's why no one hardly wipes in MMORPGs any more.  You just find a skill rotation, a taunt/agro rotation, a heal rotation, that works, and it works 99.9999% of the time, wash rinse and repeat.

Dungeons become predictable.  They're not a matter of "Oh no, this is a dangerous dungeon, I wonder if we'll survive this time". Instead, MMORPG dungeons have become "How long is this going to take before I win?" 

Same with raids, in agro-based games they are simply a series of trials and error.  The harder "raids" just require learning more steps.  But once you learn the steps, and have the gear to withstand the gear-check, the trinity/agro systems of old in a raid scenario become nothing more than a glorified game of Simon-Says.

You repeat the same pattern and win.  After a few successful raids, it's not even a game any more.  It becomes "Farm status".  Everyone repeats the same, predictable, pattern of steps and opens their loot pinata.

Then you see something break from that mold a little bit (GW2), and people lose their minds.  The caster who decided to not pay attention, who is wearing a dress and slotted zero defensive skills/traits gets wiped the moment a monster lays eyes on him.  And then the system gets criticized.

Bottom line.

Expect to be out of your comfort zone on August 2nd.

I gave the first definition of a game, as listed on thefreedictionary.com. I can't find any definition of the word game where it says that it has to be unpredictable, so now I feel like you're just making stuff up.

Facebook is full of games.  All of them are VERY predictable.  There's literally no randomness in some of them.  And yet they are still games, with millions of players who would disagree with your definition of "Game".  You can also "Play a game of catch" which doesn't even have a winner.

"That's why no one hardly wipes in MMORPGs any more" - NO. Its because there's no CHALLENGE.

If the dungeon is just a question of how long till you win, then its because there's no CHALLENGE.  Drop to two characters in the group and do it again on heroic and you'll start to question if you're going to win because suddenly there's challenge.  Its like you're ignoring me.  How many times do I need to repeat that?

Something doesn't stop being a game just because it becomes easy to you.  Its still a game, its just not a fun game.

"Bottom Line"  What's the bottom line?  This is an incomplete sentence and not really attached to any other statement.  You totally won this arguement with that illogical mess; might as well follow up with your victory gloating.

"Expect to be out of your comfort zone on August 2nd."  AND THERE IT IS.  You're acting like  you already know how EQN combat will be.  If you're working for SOE then you should be fired.  If you're anyone else then you're a liar.

The real question STILL remains as to how removing the threat system from an MMO actually improves the gameplay. 

Imagine a fight with no threat system. Someone pulls. It doesn't matter who, because it won't keep hitting them anyway.  You can DPS as hard as you want; it doesn't matter because you can't affect what the monster is going to do.  The monster randomly switches targets.  The party might survive only because the damage was spread around so evenly.  Or maybe some of the squishier party members die.  Or maybe nobody dies because they've all equipped appropriate defensive gear which basically means that every single member of the party is THE SAME despite any attempts to be different and special.  That sounds horrible to me.

Why don't you describe to me what an ideal combat would be like for you?

-I'm not making anything up.  Take any class on game theory, video game design, video game development or anything similar and you will learn the nuances of what it means to create a game*, and what aspects are needed for Game Play.

Written language always has multiple meanings for words.  For example, if I say "Our theory for the cause of death is homicide" it is completely different in meaning than a scientist who says "This is the theory of gravity".  One is a declaration of a presupposition. One is a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena.

Games*, as they pertain to our conversation, is not the same as "playing".  You play catch.  It has no goal, no rules.  Baseball has rules and goals that players abide by and strive to achieve, respectfully.  It also can not have a predictable winner.  Lets play a game... it's called "The person on these forums named Gallus85 wins"...  Oh I win! That's not a game either.

-There's no challenge in MMORPGs because they're predictable.  Even EQ's dungeons were predictable and non-challenging.  They had a gear/level check, and followed the same predictable patterns, in accordance with agro based game play.  Once you learned how to pull mobs, or had a monk pull so he can FD bad pulls,  It was predictable and was generally not challenging by any means.  It was a time sink. A grind.  The only difficult part was staying awake at the keyboard.

-You can add challenge by creating a combat system like GW2, where everyone has to be on their toes.  The mobs are more realistic, they attack different players and you have to dodge their big attacks at the right time.  Taking away the threat system made players react to unpredictable AI and forced team work and cooperation.  

-You can also have a Combat system much like GW2, but with my rigid roles.  Instead of tanks simply AOE taunting or forcing agro from single mob on himself, you can make it so the tank is a protector.  He can bash, stun, and knock back mobs that are on the soft characters. He can use an emergency skill that forces the monster to engage him for a short timed duration.  

-CC classes can help controlling mobs in these situations.  DPS characters can focus on big damage and healers have to be on their toes to heal the correct people who need it.  You can have an unpredictable, challenging and rewarding combat system, with no agro, and still keep class roles as an important and viable part of group formations.

I'm sorry, why should I be fired if I worked at SOE?  Because I feel that old systems of unrealistic combat that have been rehashed a million times since 1999 should be reworked and improved?  Give me a break.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/18/13 11:08:36 PM#142
Originally posted by Dullahan

Spoiler, there are no solutions without breaking down and rebuilding the role system from the ground up. i

GW2 system of no true agro management, unpredictable, realistic fighting AI and combined with a more rigid role system.

Tanks in combat

Does some damage, On par or slightly more than healers, less than DPS classes

The ability to take mitigated damage from mobs striking them. (Block, Parry)

Abilities to take heat off other party members.  /Knockback Kick.  /Stunning Shield Bad.  /Paladin Protection Bubble on Ally.  /Shadowknight Fear.  /Temp Forced Snap Agro (After timer AI of mob returns to normal). etc

Healer 

Some damage, on par or less than tanks, less than DPS classes

Heals players

Can cast protection skills on self/allies (temp invul, short duration increased mit bubble, etc)

DPS Melee

Does lots of damage.

Has some forms of evasion or ways to avoid damage (Bard stun, Ranger sword parry, Rogue smoke bomb/stealth, Monk defense stance)

DPS Caster

Lots of damage

Some defensive abilities (Blink away from the enemy, Levitate CC, Fear CC, Push Mob away, Magic Barrier, Mez, etc)

+

I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn! 

Look at that, game has GW2 style no agro system + roles that make sense.  People get rigid class roles they want and more realistic, less predictable, skill based combat to add Challenge.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Pneuma001

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 40

Don't try. Trying is the first step to failing.

7/19/13 1:54:30 PM#143
Originally posted by Gallus85

-I'm not making anything up. Take any class on game theory, video game design, video game development or anything similar and you will learn the nuances of what it means to create a game*, and what aspects are needed for Game Play.

Written language always has multiple meanings for words. For example, if I say "Our theory for the cause of death is homicide" it is completely different in meaning than a scientist who says "This is the theory of gravity". One is a declaration of a presupposition. One is a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena.

Games*, as they pertain to our conversation, is not the same as "playing". You play catch. It has no goal, no rules. Baseball has rules and goals that players abide by and strive to achieve, respectfully. It also can not have a predictable winner. Lets play a game... it's called "The person on these forums named Gallus85 wins"... Oh I win! That's not a game either.

-There's no challenge in MMORPGs because they're predictable. Even EQ's dungeons were predictable and non-challenging. They had a gear/level check, and followed the same predictable patterns, in accordance with agro based game play. Once you learned how to pull mobs, or had a monk pull so he can FD bad pulls, It was predictable and was generally not challenging by any means. It was a time sink. A grind. The only difficult part was staying awake at the keyboard.

-You can add challenge by creating a combat system like GW2, where everyone has to be on their toes. The mobs are more realistic, they attack different players and you have to dodge their big attacks at the right time. Taking away the threat system made players react to unpredictable AI and forced team work and cooperation.

-You can also have a Combat system much like GW2, but with my rigid roles. Instead of tanks simply AOE taunting or forcing agro from single mob on himself, you can make it so the tank is a protector. He can bash, stun, and knock back mobs that are on the soft characters. He can use an emergency skill that forces the monster to engage him for a short timed duration.

-CC classes can help controlling mobs in these situations. DPS characters can focus on big damage and healers have to be on their toes to heal the correct people who need it. You can have an unpredictable, challenging and rewarding combat system, with no agro, and still keep class roles as an important and viable part of group formations.

I'm sorry, why should I be fired if I worked at SOE? Because I feel that old systems of unrealistic combat that have been rehashed a million times since 1999 should be reworked and improved? Give me a break.

I've defined a game, as you referred to the definition of a "game" and said that it wasn't a game anymore when it was too easy. I think you're trying to define a "Good Game", which is a much more specific subsection of a game. The game design classes will try to help you figure out how to make a good game, but you're too quickly dismissing things as not being a game at all and I think that's where we're disagreeing.

"There's no challenge in MMORPGs because they're predictable." that's a generalization. MMORPGs can be challenging while also completely predictable.

The description of a game where you have to be on your toes doesn't sound like much fun. I played Neverwinter, where that was the case, and I didn't enjoy it. I can see where some people might enjoy it.

I think this whole conversation comes down to this: There are multiple play styles. That is, some people enjoy certain things that other people hate and vice-versa. I pretty much hate everything you describe and you hate everything I describe? (or you hate that I hate what you describe.) Agreed?

You're acting like you know exactly how EQN will be, not just on this forum post but on other forum posts as well. I can come to the conclusion that either you're making unfounded assumptions, or you actually know these things because you work at SOE. If you worked at SOE then you should be fired for breaching contract and talking about the game. This has nothing to do with how valid your arguements are, just that they are unfounded assumptions. You really know how to read things out of context, I'll give you that.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/19/13 2:00:18 PM#144
Originally posted by Pneuma001

I've defined a game, as you referred to the definition of a "game" and said that it wasn't a game anymore when it was too easy.

Incorrect.  There's a difference between a pre-determined outcome and "easy".  I already gave you examples and explained why you're using an incorrect term for game.  You're equating "playing" with "game", they are two different things.

SimCity is not a game.  It has no goal.  It's a tool set, a sandbox, that you play with.  You can make your own game with it (I want to have a city with 1 million population and no traffic jams) or (I want to make a small coal mining town that looks like where my grandfather grew up)

Just as you can take a ball and some bats and make a game out of them (baseball), but a ball or a bat by itself is not a game.  Throwing a ball back and forth with no rules or goals is not a game.  It's playing, just as twirling a pencil in your hand is not a game.  It's playing.

I don't make assumptions.  I'm telling you about reality.  

Also, you can* have an agro system, and make it unpredictable.  Tera touches on this a little bit.  A tank is in charge of holding a boss mob and "tanking" it, but the mob will randomly spin around and damage/knock people down.  Or shoot fireballs to the side and damage the ranged players, etc.  All players are still expected to pay attention to combat, dodge attacks/spells and avoid death, even with a tank using a traditional agro system.

I would say it's a bare minimum system, but it works well enough to bring a little* realism to big fights while still having an agro system.

Bottom line, EQN is being made with the PS4 in mind, you can count on that.  If you think you're going to get some tab target number/agro game on August 2nd, you might just want to bring a box of tissues.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5827

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

7/19/13 2:08:17 PM#145
i love the system used in GW2, it just needs to have more work put into it to be a better system. I prefer that over the aggro system, but EQN is a traditional mmo and  i dont see why would they change their traditional roots for newer systems stuff (which is sad) but yeah. Id love to see more companies move away from all (or most) of the traditional mechanics. Specially the aggro mechanic.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/19/13 2:10:10 PM#146
Originally posted by rojo6934
i love the system used in GW2, it just needs to have more work put into it to be a better system. I prefer that over the aggro system, but EQN is a traditional mmo and  i dont see why would they change their traditional roots for newer systems stuff (which is sad) but yeah. Id love to see more companies stepping aside from all (or most) of the traditional mechanics. Specially the aggro mechanic.

EQN is being designed with next gen combat and the PS4 in mind.

Expect something similar to Neverwinter, GW2, Tera, Skyrim, come August 2nd.

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  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5827

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

7/19/13 2:11:59 PM#147
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by rojo6934
i love the system used in GW2, it just needs to have more work put into it to be a better system. I prefer that over the aggro system, but EQN is a traditional mmo and  i dont see why would they change their traditional roots for newer systems stuff (which is sad) but yeah. Id love to see more companies stepping aside from all (or most) of the traditional mechanics. Specially the aggro mechanic.

EQN is being designed with next gen combat and the PS4 in mind.

Expect something similar to Neverwinter, GW2, Tera, Skyrim, come August 2nd.

its not a deal breaker to me, but its an old system that really needs to take a break, and allow better and fresher mechanics to flourish. Lets see whats up on august 2nd. Maybe you are right, who knows.

  Masterfuzzfuzz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/13
Posts: 176

7/19/13 2:19:12 PM#148
GW2 combat is garbage. You can do 99% of the stuff by just mashing your skills on cooldown (and yes I have done it). MMOs need roles but they could stand to change the aggro system a little.
  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/19/13 2:19:53 PM#149
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
GW2 combat is garbage. You can do 99% of the stuff by just mashing your skills on cooldown (and yes I have done it). MMOs need roles but they could stand to change the aggro system a little.

Name one combat system as good or better than GW2.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/19/13 5:21:35 PM#150
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
GW2 combat is garbage. You can do 99% of the stuff by just mashing your skills on cooldown (and yes I have done it). MMOs need roles but they could stand to change the aggro system a little.

Name one combat system as good or better than GW2.

[mod edit]

Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by rojo6934
i love the system used in GW2, it just needs to have more work put into it to be a better system. I prefer that over the aggro system, but EQN is a traditional mmo and  i dont see why would they change their traditional roots for newer systems stuff (which is sad) but yeah. Id love to see more companies stepping aside from all (or most) of the traditional mechanics. Specially the aggro mechanic.

EQN is being designed with next gen combat and the PS4 in mind.

Expect something similar to Neverwinter, GW2, Tera, Skyrim, come August 2nd.

[mod edit]

 

GW2 is a great game and one of the few MMORPGs to make a combat system that was difficult past staying awake at the keyboard.

I was just comparing combat systems.  Expect something similar to Neverwinter, Skyrim, GW2, Tera, etc.... for EQN.

The game itself will be quite different in many aspects though outside of that.

Remember your words when August 2nd comes around :P

I think you'll see that most/all of what I have said will not have been "assumptions".  And for good reason. :)

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Pneuma001

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 40

Don't try. Trying is the first step to failing.

7/19/13 5:38:49 PM#151
Originally posted by Gallus85

I don't make assumptions.  I'm telling you about reality.  

I'd really like to know where you got your information, since I'm pretty sure that I've read, watched and listened to everything that has been released about EQN.

I'm still assuming all of your assumptions are unfounded until you can provide some evidence that didn't originate inside your own head.  Can you even differentiate any more between something that you've assumed and something that you've actually heard?  I'm doubting it.

I will log into EQN, set my target with tab and laugh to myself about how you were so wrong. (You see what I'm doing here? I'm making an unfounded assumption, just like you do all the time.  Stating fact like this is pretty hard to disprove if you don't cite a source, isn't it?)

  Roguewiz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/01/02
Posts: 569

When a Kender says "oops!"; its already too late.

7/19/13 5:40:11 PM#152
The only good aggro management is rez'ing the dead DPS.

Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Hearthstone, League of Legends, World of Warcraft, Destiny (XBOX ONE)
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next, Everquest Next Landmark, Warhammer 40K

The secret to making a great game: Don't cater to the masses!

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/19/13 6:07:05 PM#153
Originally posted by Roguewiz
The only good aggro management is rez'ing the dead DPS.

I like the way you think.

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  Lokero

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 341

7/19/13 6:12:36 PM#154

Originally posted by Gallus85

Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
GW2 combat is garbage. You can do 99% of the stuff by just mashing your skills on cooldown (and yes I have done it). MMOs need roles but they could stand to change the aggro system a little.

Name one combat system as good or better than GW2.

[mod edit]

Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by rojo6934
i love the system used in GW2, it just needs to have more work put into it to be a better system. I prefer that over the aggro system, but EQN is a traditional mmo and  i dont see why would they change their traditional roots for newer systems stuff (which is sad) but yeah. Id love to see more companies stepping aside from all (or most) of the traditional mechanics. Specially the aggro mechanic.

EQN is being designed with next gen combat and the PS4 in mind.

Expect something similar to Neverwinter, GW2, Tera, Skyrim, come August 2nd.

[mod edit]

 

GW2 is a great game and one of the few MMORPGs to make a combat system that was difficult past staying awake at the keyboard.

I was just comparing combat systems.  Expect something similar to Neverwinter, Skyrim, GW2, Tera, etc.... for EQN.

The game itself will be quite different in many aspects though outside of that.

Remember your words when August 2nd comes around :P

I think you'll see that most/all of what I have said will not have been "assumptions".  And for good reason. :)

GW2 combat was one of the better systems, it was an advancement from WoW, at least.  I didn't care for the weapon switching system much, that was kind of cheesy and pointless.  But, the direction they were heading, was a nice hybrid adaptation from the button mash to an action system.

I can't speak for the entire GW2 game, I know the combat was largely boring and lifeless(and don't get me started no those 3 dragon bosses that only attacked in one direction), but there were certain systems that were really fun.  

I played a sword/dagger Ranger alot in GW2, and the evade attacks and manual dodging kept it pretty fun and active.  Of course, the AI in the game was bloody terrible, and alot of the game was just button spam, all the same.

So, GW2 was a nice effort, that could easily be improved upon.  I never bothered to play TERA or Neverwinter, personally.  But, the point is, we can clearly see the direction developers are trying to take combat.  ESO, GW2, TERA, etc.  All of these games are leading us(slowly, but surely) in the direction of skill based, manual combat, and away from the auto-attack, stand-in-one-spot while fighting mentality.

WoW was largely successful because of the amazingly fluid and fast-paced combat and the very well-done animations to go along with them(animations play a huge role in combat, let's be honest).

GW2 was largely a success and hyped so much because of its active combat and them trying something new with the progression system.  GW2 had some decent animations too, if you could deal with all the acrobatics(sometimes they did get a little silly, watching a giant in plate armor with a tower shield rolling all over the ground like a carnival performer, for instance).

TERA wasn't successful, but it got alot of hype and followers just through them trying to go with action combat, as well.

 ESO is going to try and capitalize on the action combat with manual blocking, etc. because that's what everyone raged about and asked for.

I know jack about Neverwinter because it just reminded me too much of what DDO did/tried to do already. Speaking of which, DDO even tried to implement dodging and rolling into their combat(it was more of a dice roll, but still, you had to manually roll/dodge, etc.) way back then.

I have no idea what EQN is going to be like, but it only makes sense that they'd take these recent MMOs and their improvements and hybridization, and evolve it into something beautiful and enjoyable.  They have so many MMOs and experiences before them, that they should be able to take the best of all these systems and do something entirely new and more advanced.

That's my dream, at least.   I'd love to see EQN be the next evolution in skill-play with their combat system.

Originally posted by Pneuma001

Originally posted by Gallus85

I don't make assumptions.  I'm telling you about reality.  

I will log into EQN, set my target with tab and laugh to myself about how you were so wrong. (You see what I'm doing here? I'm making an unfounded assumption, just like you do all the time.  Stating fact like this is pretty hard to disprove if you don't cite a source, isn't it?)


Tab-targetting can be used in conjuction with more skill-based, action-packed combat, just wanted to throw that in there ;)

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