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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » POLL: Do you want an aggro managment in EQN?

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154 posts found
  Dullahan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 796

Death to Themepark.

7/18/13 12:36:47 AM#121
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Dullahan

Also, while we're comparing PvE to PvP to trash agro, lets look at how it really goes down in PvP.

In PvP, if you see a caster you attack them.  In PvE, if you engage a mob and a caster immediately nukes the mob, it attacks them.  Their damage will over- what class? Overagro.  In PvE casters don't nuke immediately.  In PvP, they generally do, thus you attack them first.  Thats actually one of the things I avoided doing the most as a caster in PvP.  I'd wait until the fighting was hot and heavy and people were distracted, then I'd come out discreetly and let the bodies hit the floor.  Theres nothing I love more in pvp as melee dps than seeing casters jump out in the beginning of pvp like suprise, muthaf*ka, and I just down them immediately.  Quite similar to how it works in PvE...

Frankly, if it was up to me, I'd have agro abilities play a role in PvP as well.  That would be a more intelligent system.  When that rogue is running at your cleric, you taunt and spin him around and shift his target to you.  Even if its only for a second.

Actually, in most games I just look for the guy wearing a dress or looks like a healer.  If the game has tab target HUD indicators for class I look at that.  If it doesn't I look at clothing, race, etc, to determine who dies first.  I generally don't need to wait for them to cast a spell before I know who to kill.  In fact, I prefer it when they use your method of "hanging back" and not fighting.  It means my group takes less damage before I kill the caster.

 

Hanging back is usually not done out in the open... derp.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO, ArcheAge and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, Camelot Unchained & Shroud of the Avatar.
-
Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  killahh

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 455

As famous as the unknown soldier

7/18/13 1:16:36 AM#122
Aggro management, is a great aspect of any group encounter. Having specialized classes that can effectively deal with said aggro are awsome as well. Mmm.... Specialized classes, nothing but love there. B-) Interesting thing as well is that it's easy to tell if a person knows their class if you have differentiated classes. Cheers

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/18/13 1:38:59 AM#123
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Dullahan

Also, while we're comparing PvE to PvP to trash agro, lets look at how it really goes down in PvP.

In PvP, if you see a caster you attack them.  In PvE, if you engage a mob and a caster immediately nukes the mob, it attacks them.  Their damage will over- what class? Overagro.  In PvE casters don't nuke immediately.  In PvP, they generally do, thus you attack them first.  Thats actually one of the things I avoided doing the most as a caster in PvP.  I'd wait until the fighting was hot and heavy and people were distracted, then I'd come out discreetly and let the bodies hit the floor.  Theres nothing I love more in pvp as melee dps than seeing casters jump out in the beginning of pvp like suprise, muthaf*ka, and I just down them immediately.  Quite similar to how it works in PvE...

Frankly, if it was up to me, I'd have agro abilities play a role in PvP as well.  That would be a more intelligent system.  When that rogue is running at your cleric, you taunt and spin him around and shift his target to you.  Even if its only for a second.

Actually, in most games I just look for the guy wearing a dress or looks like a healer.  If the game has tab target HUD indicators for class I look at that.  If it doesn't I look at clothing, race, etc, to determine who dies first.  I generally don't need to wait for them to cast a spell before I know who to kill.  In fact, I prefer it when they use your method of "hanging back" and not fighting.  It means my group takes less damage before I kill the caster.

 

Hanging back is usually not done out in the open... derp.

Notice no one agreed with your theory.

The status-quo for trinity games is down right unrealistic and illogical.  Not saying that Unrealistic/illogical is bad.  A game doesn't have to be a simulation.

For example, Battlefield 3 is not even close to what military combat is like.  But it's a game.  You learn the mechanics, discover strategies, learn the game and play to win/have fun.  Same with trinity MMORPGs.  The combat is no where near cinematic or even realistic or logical by any means.  

You can see in the same games what more logical, realistic combat would look like when you see the PVP in those trinity games, which never looks anything like PVE.  In PVP you got people running around, everyone is taking damage, everyone has to pay attention to dangers and engage in active combat or lose.  In PVE, it always looks different, neater, more controlled and less frantic because you're playing against scripted AI that does not follow the same combat logic that humans follow.  They sit there and bash on a guy wearing full plate and ignore healers and DPS simply because he pushed a taunt button.  It's not logical at all.

This is not an objectively bad thing.  Games don't have to be realistic to be fun.  Most games aren't even close to realistic when compared to similar real life events they try to portray in their look/theme.  I just wanted to refute your logic argument, because it's so far off from correct.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Dullahan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 796

Death to Themepark.

7/18/13 2:05:36 AM#124
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Dullahan

Also, while we're comparing PvE to PvP to trash agro, lets look at how it really goes down in PvP.

In PvP, if you see a caster you attack them.  In PvE, if you engage a mob and a caster immediately nukes the mob, it attacks them.  Their damage will over- what class? Overagro.  In PvE casters don't nuke immediately.  In PvP, they generally do, thus you attack them first.  Thats actually one of the things I avoided doing the most as a caster in PvP.  I'd wait until the fighting was hot and heavy and people were distracted, then I'd come out discreetly and let the bodies hit the floor.  Theres nothing I love more in pvp as melee dps than seeing casters jump out in the beginning of pvp like suprise, muthaf*ka, and I just down them immediately.  Quite similar to how it works in PvE...

Frankly, if it was up to me, I'd have agro abilities play a role in PvP as well.  That would be a more intelligent system.  When that rogue is running at your cleric, you taunt and spin him around and shift his target to you.  Even if its only for a second.

Actually, in most games I just look for the guy wearing a dress or looks like a healer.  If the game has tab target HUD indicators for class I look at that.  If it doesn't I look at clothing, race, etc, to determine who dies first.  I generally don't need to wait for them to cast a spell before I know who to kill.  In fact, I prefer it when they use your method of "hanging back" and not fighting.  It means my group takes less damage before I kill the caster.

 

Hanging back is usually not done out in the open... derp.

Notice no one agreed with your theory.

The status-quo for trinity games is down right unrealistic and illogical.  Not saying that Unrealistic/illogical is bad.  A game doesn't have to be a simulation.

For example, Battlefield 3 is not even close to what military combat is like.  But it's a game.  You learn the mechanics, discover strategies, learn the game and play to win/have fun.  Same with trinity MMORPGs.  The combat is no where near cinematic or even realistic or logical by any means.  

You can see in the same games what more logical, realistic combat would look like when you see the PVP in those trinity games, which never looks anything like PVE.  In PVP you got people running around, everyone is taking damage, everyone has to pay attention to dangers and engage in active combat or lose.  In PVE, it always looks different, neater, more controlled and less frantic because you're playing against scripted AI that does not follow the same combat logic that humans follow.  They sit there and bash on a guy wearing full plate and ignore healers and DPS simply because he pushed a taunt button.  It's not logical at all.

This is not an objectively bad thing.  Games don't have to be realistic to be fun.  Most games aren't even close to realistic when compared to similar real life events they try to portray in their look/theme.  I just wanted to refute your logic argument, because it's so far off from correct.

I don't need anyone to agree with me on the internet.  Upwards of 20 years of online games, I don't need anyones endorsement.

Thankfully for me, "my theory" is logic, not a theory.  As a programmer, I'm intimately acquainted with it.

My rebuttal showed conclusively how laughable your suggestion was, and how similar agro is to common sense response in a combat scenario.  Even the similarities to PvP are undenyable.  Sorry reality took a dump on "your theory."  Unfortunately, all of your suggestions of a better alternative are even more unrealistic or simplistic and easy to circumvent than agro.  Tanks relying solely on collision to block a mob from damaging a group or raid of players standing behind you?  Imagine how much we'd be laughing at that mechanic 15 years later if it was adopted in MMOs instead of traditioinal agro, rofl.  In reality, the attacker would just run around you and dirt nap your pals.  A bigger, stronger mob would just step over you or push you out of the way.  LOLing right now picturing a dwarf tank somehow blocking a dragon or a giant from moving by.  You shall not pass!

Agro is unfortunately the only logical solution to mob AI (because it is logic, and AI).  Agro also isn't some new thing, its just the modern vernacular for the logic or combat AI of an NPC (like i said earlier).  Its existed since the dawn of video games in nearly all AI in one form or another.  By all means, think of a better system, but the chaos mechanic or focusing a caster or healer simply for being physically weaker, like a player would in PvP, introduces more problems than solutions.  The solutions being suggested must work with the agro system (logic), not replace it.

You can create hundreds of random scenarios where mobs could alter their tactics (agro system), but every time you will come to the same conclusion no matter how you change it, the AI's decisions will still boil down to some variation of an agro system.  Maybe it will be to attack casters first, maybe it will be to attack short players.  Perhaps evil monsters attack good aligned players and vice versa.  Whatever the decision is, its still an agro system, and players will learn and overcome it all the same.   For instance, even the "shield wall" or tank(s) utilizing collision and blocking mob pathing is a form of "agro".  Its forcing the mob to focus the player(s) as one would with taunt, by impeding their progress towards squishier targets.  It does not replace agro (logic) system, it enhances it adding a new dynamic.  Adding dynamics to it is great, but chaos makes for some unhappy campers.

The other alternative, which is even worse, is to accept random or chaotic npc agro systems, and change all classes or their mechanics to allow them the ability to mitigate or avoid damage, thus breaking down the typical role system found not only in MMORPGs, but even old pen an paper rpgs (which also used a system of agro).  It leaves you with the only logical alternative being a bunch of armored classes, or everyone dodging around until their robe wearing asses get splattered for zigging when they should have zagged.  The conclusion of this path is a more realistic one for sure, likely more action combat oriented as well, but ultimately results in the breakdown of roles (as you suggested) and the classic fantasy genre as we know it.  Not an option to me.

Conclusion:

One does not simply do away with the agro system, one enhances it.  Make it more dynamic.  Add more variability. But remove it?  Your suggestion is literally removing the intelligence from artificial intelligence.

Also, sorry you missed out on Everquest.  It had no less than 6 roles, unlike this holey trinity you found out about in WoW or one of its subsequent clones.  Oh, and not only did it have more roles, agro shifted based on things like the health of the mob, the health of players, how close they were, and whether they were sitting or standing.  MMOs are devolving pals.

edit: school is in session, additions necessary

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO, ArcheAge and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, Camelot Unchained & Shroud of the Avatar.
-
Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  Slyther_Zero

Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/12
Posts: 127

7/18/13 2:30:01 AM#125


Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
I don't enjoy the gimmicky taunt gameplay so I voted no.

not opposed to aggro management altogether, but that "attack me" button is not fun for me.  i don't like knowing what the AI is going to do and I don't like the overly scripted fights developers end up creating to make the game challenging to compensate for it.

 


Totally agree.

They better not make it like your typical WoW dungeoneering. It was too easy to keep aggro in that game. Made it just a matter of sitting back with a box of popcorn and running through the usual set of skills and taunts to tank mobs.

  Masterfuzzfuzz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/13
Posts: 176

7/18/13 5:46:38 AM#126
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Pandamin

If that means I can once again play a character who snares, roots and messes the mobs,

yes please. 

 

I don't think its needed to include GW2 into the discussion.

The lack of an aggro system or trinity isn't the reason GW2 didn't pan out as a lot of us hoped.

 

Well....maybe a little.

GW2 is one of the most successful MMORPGs to date and the dev team releases additional content (holiday themed and story expansion content) just about every month lol.

3 million copies sold?  Sold.  Not even F2P 3 million users.  3 million boxes sold at $59.99 to 39.99 a piece.  Not including cash shop sales either.

Any game company would be lucky to see those kinds of numbers

Or if you mean't "Didn't pan out" as in some people here didn't like it.  Ok cool.  Gotcha.  Different people like different things.

That's called Hype. A lot of the community left very early on once they realized it was boring. That's why they started doing these free content updates and spamming my email with COME BACK messages.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/18/13 12:47:03 PM#127
Originally posted by Dullahan

Conclusion:

One does not simply do away with the agro system, one enhances it.  Make it more dynamic.  Add more variability. But remove it?  Your suggestion is literally removing the intelligence from artificial intelligence.

Also, sorry you missed out on Everquest.  It had no less than 6 roles, unlike this holey trinity you found out about in WoW or one of its subsequent clones.  Oh, and not only did it have more roles, agro shifted based on things like the health of the mob, the health of players, how close they were, and whether they were sitting or standing.  MMOs are devolving pals.

edit: school is in session, additions necessary

Conclusion.

Your idea of logical is wrong.

I played EQ from launch, starting March 16, 1999, and for about 4 years after that.

If you want to see logic in combat, look no further than PVP, which looks nothing like PVE in agro based games. (For a reason)

I wonder how the Lord of the Rings movies would look if all the mobs attacked Aragorn because of a taunt while Legolas, Gimli, Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, Boromir, Merry and Pippin sat in the back, shooting arrows, throwing rocks, throwing daggers and shooting pewpew.  While all the orcs, trolls and goblins just attacked Aragorn.

The only problem here is your lack of willingness to move on and learn new mechanics.  

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  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/18/13 12:58:31 PM#128
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Pandamin

If that means I can once again play a character who snares, roots and messes the mobs,

yes please. 

 

I don't think its needed to include GW2 into the discussion.

The lack of an aggro system or trinity isn't the reason GW2 didn't pan out as a lot of us hoped.

 

Well....maybe a little.

GW2 is one of the most successful MMORPGs to date and the dev team releases additional content (holiday themed and story expansion content) just about every month lol.

3 million copies sold?  Sold.  Not even F2P 3 million users.  3 million boxes sold at $59.99 to 39.99 a piece.  Not including cash shop sales either.

Any game company would be lucky to see those kinds of numbers

Or if you mean't "Didn't pan out" as in some people here didn't like it.  Ok cool.  Gotcha.  Different people like different things.

That's called Hype. A lot of the community left very early on once they realized it was boring. That's why they started doing these free content updates and spamming my email with COME BACK messages.

The community didn't leave.  The standard amount of drop off happened as people went to try other games.  The holiday content and the story line continuation content that they add in was promoted as a planned part of the game before the game even launched.  It does work to bring some people back, but the point of the content is to keep the players there happy with new stuff to work on and experience.  The steady player base that reaches close to a million active players.  Hardly anything to gawk at.

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  Sabas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/05
Posts: 204

This is the sound of me

7/18/13 1:16:56 PM#129
Originally posted by Gallus85

The community didn't leave. 

Thats not completly true.

 

A big part of the community left once Anet started to pull their FoTM shenanigans.

I and obviously many other posters on this forum left for a myriad of reasons.

Perhaps we weren't part of the community? :shock:

I've been keeping up with the thread and I often see you say things like: Old systems, learn to adapt etc.

Wich is fine, but what do you propose then?

I already asked you but you decided to ignore that in favour of keeping the talk focused on defending GW2.

 

We already established that collision blocking is a no go.

A hate system could work but that will lead us to spamville. You can not deny that group combat in GW2 is an AoE spam fest. Where only the very few actually try to set up combo fields. And I don't care that the majority was to dumb to understand their class/role as you claim. 

 

So what kind of system could replace aggro?

 

 

  User Deleted
7/18/13 1:25:01 PM#130
Originally posted by Pandamin
You can not deny that group combat in GW2 is an AoE spam fest. Where only the very few actually try to set up combo fields. And I don't care that the majority was to dumb to understand their class/role as you claim.
 

Of course he can deny it.  He's been denying everything relating to that game.  The game is good and has a lot of great things, but dungeons/hate system/storyline are not one of those things. 

I mean I stopped listening when I heard him trying to defend the level 30 dungeon at launch as being a case where players needed to L2P.  Seriously how crazed fanboy can you get?  lol  just wow.

 

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/18/13 2:21:22 PM#131
Originally posted by Pandamin
Originally posted by Gallus85

The community didn't leave. 

Thats not completly true.

 

A big part of the community left once Anet started to pull their FoTM shenanigans.

I and obviously many other posters on this forum left for a myriad of reasons.

Perhaps we weren't part of the community? :shock:

I've been keeping up with the thread and I often see you say things like: Old systems, learn to adapt etc.

Wich is fine, but what do you propose then?

I already asked you but you decided to ignore that in favour of keeping the talk focused on defending GW2.

 

We already established that collision blocking is a no go.

A hate system could work but that will lead us to spamville. You can not deny that group combat in GW2 is an AoE spam fest. Where only the very few actually try to set up combo fields. And I don't care that the majority was to dumb to understand their class/role as you claim. 

 

So what kind of system could replace aggro?

 

 

Ya the collusion thing wasn't my idea nor did anyone establish that it was a no go.  It is certainly more reasonable than the taunt button / agro management system of trinity based games so far.

GW2 was not a spam fest.  There were clear benefits from understanding the mechanics of the game, and using the right abilities at the right time and having different specced people in the group, just as there are clear benefits from having a healer, tank, dps,support and CC people in your group in EQ, EQ2, Aion, etc...  

The fact that people were able to fumble through some* dungeons, downing and dying and zerg rushing and running around kiting mobs in the most unorganized and sloppy way possible does not mean there was an issue with GW2's system.  Just means people didn't take the time to learn the mechanics and make life easier on them and learn how to do the harder dungeons (Good luck doing high lvl FoTM or Arah with just a buncha kiting / fumbling around / no role coordination.  I bet it would not even be close to fun.  It's no different than a group in EQ saying "Hey, we don't need CC and a tank going into this dungeon, we'll just work with what we got...."  There are many times in EQ where you didn't have all the classes needed for something and you just fumbled through the dungeon.  The difference is that GW2 doesn't make roles so apparent and clear cut.  But it happened in both games.

My personal suggestion? It would be a system where tanks are defenders of the group.  All Mobs don't just walk up and stick to them the whole fight just because he pushed an AOE taunt button.  Tanks would shield bash, kick, knock back, stun and tackle mobs that are attacking the group's softer classes.  Maybe these attacks get the monster's attention for a temporary moment, Maybe there is a system where the tank can choose to engage and hold a single mob's attention for a prolonged period of time, but encounters would not be 1 mob VS 6 players.  It would be hoards of monsters attacking players of the group.

This kind of system would simulate more realistic battles. Encounters in the game would be frantic, action packed and no class would be safe.

To combat this, each class would need defensive and reactive abilities.

Archers would need to switch quickly to melee weapons and focus on timing parries and dodging attacks.  

Rogues would have to parry, blind and stun mobs to avoid taking damage.  Stealthing away from combat and then jumping back into the battle when the mob's attention turns to another companion.

Mages would make use of magical barriers, blinking away from enemies, blocking with their staff, using magic spells to push, CC, stun, etc.

In this system combat would be more realistic.  It wouldn't devolve into illogical battles where 1 monster attacks the least vulnerable person over and over again while 5 other people spam damage and heal the "tank" like in older games.

There's a reason why PVP and PVE are completely different games.  Because the taunt system is unrealistic.  Any attacker with common sense is not going to keep spamming attacks onto a player who is taking extremely mitigated damage and getting spam healed, when there are much more vulnerable enemies around.

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  Pneuma001

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 40

Don't try. Trying is the first step to failing.

7/18/13 3:02:45 PM#132
Originally posted by craftseeker

...I believe that we should see an end to the tank in MMORPGs and move to a different model of combat...

I really think mobs should attack based on different algorithims ones that never allow any player to be 100% certain to be subject the next target for an attack and no player in range would have a 0% chance of being the next target for an attack.

That sounds like the worst thing I've ever heard of.  Just awful.  If you can't predict how the game will probably behave and attempt to exercise some amount of control over it then you aren't really playing a game, you're just watching a movie.

Monster AI should be factored into threat algorithms so that certain monsters will gain more hatred from healing whereas others will go after the highest DPS or whomever appears to be the lightest armored.  Some monsters may be able to detect stealth and especially hate people sneaking around or stabbing them in the back.

These things would make a fight more interesting, but it should always be learnable and repeatable the next time.  If I go into a fight and all the rogues quickly die because the tank can't taunt off them then I should be able to learn that this monster does that.  Next time I go to fight that monster someone will say: "Hey guys, don't get behind him - he hates that." or "don't shoot fireballs; stick to ice" or some such thing.

It should never be random.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/18/13 3:12:09 PM#133
Originally posted by Pneuma001
Originally posted by craftseeker

...I believe that we should see an end to the tank in MMORPGs and move to a different model of combat...

I really think mobs should attack based on different algorithims ones that never allow any player to be 100% certain to be subject the next target for an attack and no player in range would have a 0% chance of being the next target for an attack.

That sounds like the worst thing I've ever heard of.  Just awful.  If you can't predict how the game will probably behave and attempt to exercise some amount of control over it then you aren't really playing a game, you're just watching a movie.

It should never be random.

Not accurate in accordance to what a game is by definition.  It doesn't have to be predictable.  In fact, the best games are unpredictable.

Think more to PVP.  It's random, with logic.  You can never know for sure what another player is going to do, but you can have some idea.  Reacting quickly to the unpredictable is a trademark of a good gamer.

If a game becomes predictable, it becomes boring.  That's a fact.

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  Pneuma001

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 40

Don't try. Trying is the first step to failing.

7/18/13 4:56:42 PM#134
Originally posted by Gallus85

Think more to PVP.  It's random, with logic.  You can never know for sure what another player is going to do, but you can have some idea.  Reacting quickly to the unpredictable is a trademark of a good gamer.

If a game becomes predictable, it becomes boring.  That's a fact.

I hate PVP.  If PVE was like PVP then I wouldn't play it. A lot of people wouldn't play it.  And game companies would come out with games with PVE what was not like PVP and they would have a lot of paying customers for these games.

Not everyone is a good gamer.  Making a game totally unpredictable is going to make the game not much fun for those people who aren't gamers, who will then cease playing the game.

Needing to be able to react quickly to everything will also alienate all of the otherwise good gamers without a top of the line internet connection.

I don't believe predictability makes a game boring all by itself.  Its when a game is predictable and easy that it becomes boring.  A game that is predictable and challenging remains fun.

Strawberry ice cream is green.  That's a fact... supported by no evidence at all.

"That's a fact." - One of the most illogical arguements or support statements that can be made. Try making a reference to actual supporting facts.  I shouldn't have to teach people how to debate on a forum, but to argue against them I do have to point out how illogical your arguements are if you insist on using them.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/18/13 5:05:05 PM#135
Originally posted by Pneuma001
Originally posted by Gallus85

Think more to PVP.  It's random, with logic.  You can never know for sure what another player is going to do, but you can have some idea.  Reacting quickly to the unpredictable is a trademark of a good gamer.

If a game becomes predictable, it becomes boring.  That's a fact.

I hate PVP.  If PVE was like PVP then I wouldn't play it. A lot of people wouldn't play it.  And game companies would come out with games with PVE what was not like PVP and they would have a lot of paying customers for these games.

Not everyone is a good gamer.  Making a game totally unpredictable is going to make the game not much fun for those people who aren't gamers, who will then cease playing the game.

Needing to be able to react quickly to everything will also alienate all of the otherwise good gamers without a top of the line internet connection.

I don't believe predictability makes a game boring all by itself.  Its when a game is predictable and easy that it becomes boring.  A game that is predictable and challenging remains fun.

Strawberry ice cream is green.  That's a fact... supported by no evidence at all.

"That's a fact." - One of the most illogical arguements or support statements that can be made. Try making a reference to actual supporting facts.  I shouldn't have to teach people how to debate on a forum, but to argue against them I do have to point out how illogical your arguements are if you insist on using them.

My point is that if PVE was realistic, it would look like PVP.  

No good game is predictable.  If it does become predictable, it becomes boring / useless to play.  Let me give you an example.

Chess.  There are huge amounts of possible moves a player can make each game.  It's unpredictable.  There are things you can expect, but you never know exactly what you're opponent is going to throw at you.  However, if I played 100 games of chess with you, and did the same exact moves every single game, would you want to play chess with me?

What if I gave you a piece of paper that laid out every single move I was going to make before we even started.  Eventually you learn how to "beat me", and then I never change, and never do anything different.  I do the same moves and do the same actions every single time we play.  Eventually you get to the point where you know* that victory is yours before we even start.

And by definition this is not even a game at this point.

That is exactly what agro-based trinity games turn into.  It's exactly why it needs to change.

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  Pneuma001

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 40

Don't try. Trying is the first step to failing.

7/18/13 5:51:12 PM#136
Originally posted by Gallus85

My point is that if PVE was realistic, it would look like PVP.  

No good game is predictable.  If it does become predictable, it becomes boring / useless to play.  Let me give you an example.

Chess.  There are huge amounts of possible moves a player can make each game.  It's unpredictable.  There are things you can expect, but you never know exactly what you're opponent is going to throw at you.  However, if I played 100 games of chess with you, and did the same exact moves every single game, would you want to play chess with me?

What if I gave you a piece of paper that laid out every single move I was going to make before we even started.  Eventually you learn how to "beat me", and then I never change, and never do anything different.  I do the same moves and do the same actions every single time we play.  Eventually you get to the point where you know* that victory is yours before we even start.

And by definition this is not even a game at this point.

That is exactly what agro-based trinity games turn into.  It's exactly why it needs to change.

If PVE were realistic then it would NOT look like PVP.  The whole reason that the player can win 100 times in a row is because that player is a hero.  He's the guy that everyone asks to do stuff because they can't do it themselves because they are not heroic.

If PVP were realistic it would look a lot more like PVE.  There would be a hundred guys running around that you could one-shot for every hero that was an actual challenge.  Or you'd be one of the bottom 99% and you'd just be one-shotted by the hero as he ran past you... though most PVP already feels that way to me anyway.

I wouldn't want to play chess with you no matter what moves you did. Its boring.  And its PVP.  Already stated I hated PVP.

No challenging fight in any MMO is 100% predictable.  If the DPS goes too hard or the tank isn't taunting or healing isn't sufficient then things become very unpredictable.  When they do people die and groups wipe.  If your fight isn't challenging anymore then it may not be fun anymore.  But that isn't because of the predictability factor; its because it isn't challenging.

If you could PVP and one-shot everyone all the time and never died then it wouldn't be fun, not because the other people were any less predictable, but because they were no challenge.

"Game" has ten definitions.  The first one I found was: " An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime."  Different people are amused by different things.  I was very much amused by taking a high level character and kicking the snot out of every monster in a dungeon at the same time even though the process and results were very predictable.

I'll agree that anything that is 100% predictable isn't fun all the time.  The game does need to venture somewhere into the gray area of unpredictablilty.  I do NOT think that removing the threat system is the way to do that. 

Maybe you're looking for a game where the entire game is completely unpredictable. Maybe you're looking for a PVP-only game.  They're out there for you; please don't think that ruining PVE is the way to make your game fun.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/18/13 6:23:29 PM#137
Originally posted by Pneuma001
Originally posted by Gallus85

My point is that if PVE was realistic, it would look like PVP.  

No good game is predictable.  If it does become predictable, it becomes boring / useless to play.  Let me give you an example.

Chess.  There are huge amounts of possible moves a player can make each game.  It's unpredictable.  There are things you can expect, but you never know exactly what you're opponent is going to throw at you.  However, if I played 100 games of chess with you, and did the same exact moves every single game, would you want to play chess with me?

What if I gave you a piece of paper that laid out every single move I was going to make before we even started.  Eventually you learn how to "beat me", and then I never change, and never do anything different.  I do the same moves and do the same actions every single time we play.  Eventually you get to the point where you know* that victory is yours before we even start.

And by definition this is not even a game at this point.

That is exactly what agro-based trinity games turn into.  It's exactly why it needs to change.

If PVE were realistic then it would NOT look like PVP.  The whole reason that the player can win 100 times in a row is because that player is a hero.  He's the guy that everyone asks to do stuff because they can't do it themselves because they are not heroic.

If PVP were realistic it would look a lot more like PVE.  There would be a hundred guys running around that you could one-shot for every hero that was an actual challenge.  Or you'd be one of the bottom 99% and you'd just be one-shotted by the hero as he ran past you... though most PVP already feels that way to me anyway.

I wouldn't want to play chess with you no matter what moves you did. Its boring.  And its PVP.  Already stated I hated PVP.

No challenging fight in any MMO is 100% predictable.  If the DPS goes too hard or the tank isn't taunting or healing isn't sufficient then things become very unpredictable.  When they do people die and groups wipe.  If your fight isn't challenging anymore then it may not be fun anymore.  But that isn't because of the predictability factor; its because it isn't challenging.

If you could PVP and one-shot everyone all the time and never died then it wouldn't be fun, not because the other people were any less predictable, but because they were no challenge.

"Game" has ten definitions.  The first one I found was: " An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime."  Different people are amused by different things.  I was very much amused by taking a high level character and kicking the snot out of every monster in a dungeon at the same time even though the process and results were very predictable.

I'll agree that anything that is 100% predictable isn't fun all the time.  The game does need to venture somewhere into the gray area of unpredictablilty.  I do NOT think that removing the threat system is the way to do that. 

Maybe you're looking for a game where the entire game is completely unpredictable. Maybe you're looking for a PVP-only game.  They're out there for you; please don't think that ruining PVE is the way to make your game fun.

You gave the definition of playing.  Not a game.

A game is not a game unless: It has rules that other players must follow.  A goal.  And has an unpredictable winner.

If any of these are not present, it is not a game.  It is playing, killing time, a pastime, etc.  Which are fine, but it's not a game.

Having fun does not make something a game.  I might have fun programming code.  That does not make it a game.

Your idea of a good combat system.  Your "If Dps goes to hard...." example.  Is predictable.  You can gauge your actions and know what the AI enemy is going to do.  That's why no one hardly wipes in MMORPGs any more.  You just find a skill rotation, a taunt/agro rotation, a heal rotation, that works, and it works 99.9999% of the time, wash rinse and repeat.

Dungeons become predictable.  They're not a matter of "Oh no, this is a dangerous dungeon, I wonder if we'll survive this time". Instead, MMORPG dungeons have become "How long is this going to take before I win?" 

Same with raids, in agro-based games they are simply a series of trials and error.  The harder "raids" just require learning more steps.  But once you learn the steps, and have the gear to withstand the gear-check, the trinity/agro systems of old in a raid scenario become nothing more than a glorified game of Simon-Says.

You repeat the same pattern and win.  After a few successful raids, it's not even a game any more.  It becomes "Farm status".  Everyone repeats the same, predictable, pattern of steps and opens their loot pinata.

Then you see something break from that mold a little bit (GW2), and people lose their minds.  The caster who decided to not pay attention, who is wearing a dress and slotted zero defensive skills/traits gets wiped the moment a monster lays eyes on him.  And then the system gets criticized.

Bottom line.

Expect to be out of your comfort zone on August 2nd.

 

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  Pneuma001

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 40

Don't try. Trying is the first step to failing.

7/18/13 7:31:12 PM#138
Originally posted by Gallus85

You gave the definition of playing.  Not a game.

A game is not a game unless: It has rules that other players must follow.  A goal.  And has an unpredictable winner.

If any of these are not present, it is not a game.  It is playing, killing time, a pastime, etc.  Which are fine, but it's not a game.

Having fun does not make something a game.  I might have fun programming code.  That does not make it a game.

Your idea of a good combat system.  Your "If Dps goes to hard...." example.  Is predictable.  You can gauge your actions and know what the AI enemy is going to do.  That's why no one hardly wipes in MMORPGs any more.  You just find a skill rotation, a taunt/agro rotation, a heal rotation, that works, and it works 99.9999% of the time, wash rinse and repeat.

Dungeons become predictable.  They're not a matter of "Oh no, this is a dangerous dungeon, I wonder if we'll survive this time". Instead, MMORPG dungeons have become "How long is this going to take before I win?" 

Same with raids, in agro-based games they are simply a series of trials and error.  The harder "raids" just require learning more steps.  But once you learn the steps, and have the gear to withstand the gear-check, the trinity/agro systems of old in a raid scenario become nothing more than a glorified game of Simon-Says.

You repeat the same pattern and win.  After a few successful raids, it's not even a game any more.  It becomes "Farm status".  Everyone repeats the same, predictable, pattern of steps and opens their loot pinata.

Then you see something break from that mold a little bit (GW2), and people lose their minds.  The caster who decided to not pay attention, who is wearing a dress and slotted zero defensive skills/traits gets wiped the moment a monster lays eyes on him.  And then the system gets criticized.

Bottom line.

Expect to be out of your comfort zone on August 2nd.

I gave the first definition of a game, as listed on thefreedictionary.com. I can't find any definition of the word game where it says that it has to be unpredictable, so now I feel like you're just making stuff up.

Facebook is full of games.  All of them are VERY predictable.  There's literally no randomness in some of them.  And yet they are still games, with millions of players who would disagree with your definition of "Game".  You can also "Play a game of catch" which doesn't even have a winner.

"That's why no one hardly wipes in MMORPGs any more" - NO. Its because there's no CHALLENGE.

If the dungeon is just a question of how long till you win, then its because there's no CHALLENGE.  Drop to two characters in the group and do it again on heroic and you'll start to question if you're going to win because suddenly there's challenge.  Its like you're ignoring me.  How many times do I need to repeat that?

Something doesn't stop being a game just because it becomes easy to you.  Its still a game, its just not a fun game.

"Bottom Line"  What's the bottom line?  This is an incomplete sentence and not really attached to any other statement.  You totally won this arguement with that illogical mess; might as well follow up with your victory gloating.

"Expect to be out of your comfort zone on August 2nd."  AND THERE IT IS.  You're acting like  you already know how EQN combat will be.  If you're working for SOE then you should be fired.  If you're anyone else then you're a liar.

The real question STILL remains as to how removing the threat system from an MMO actually improves the gameplay. 

Imagine a fight with no threat system. Someone pulls. It doesn't matter who, because it won't keep hitting them anyway.  You can DPS as hard as you want; it doesn't matter because you can't affect what the monster is going to do.  The monster randomly switches targets.  The party might survive only because the damage was spread around so evenly.  Or maybe some of the squishier party members die.  Or maybe nobody dies because they've all equipped appropriate defensive gear which basically means that every single member of the party is THE SAME despite any attempts to be different and special.  That sounds horrible to me.

Why don't you describe to me what an ideal combat would be like for you?

  Dullahan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 796

Death to Themepark.

7/18/13 8:27:14 PM#139

These debates on a better solution for mob AI and the aggro system are older than the genre itself.

Aggro is simply a rule that allows a mob to select a target that players and enemies can change during combat.  When you force mobs to circumvent that aggro generating mechanic, you essentially remove the tank role from the RPG, and break down the role system as a whole.

What many of you don't seem to understand, is that RPG AI is always (and should always be) limited to a system thats conducive to the role system that the RPG is founded on.  Aggro is a concept that goes back to pen and paper rpgs, and was created to be a system of logic to allow each player class to play their part or role in the game.  The system is contingent upon an aggressive tank role that blocks, distracts or overpowers enemies in order for the other roles to perform their duties.

Using the chaos of PvP to undermine the established logic found in PvE simply breaks the laws or principles the fantasy RPG was founded on.  The simple fact of the matter is, tanks should be able to aggro players or at least shift their target and focus in PvP as they do in PvE.  Thats not to say there aren't more intelligent forms of AI that would work in another system, but not the classic role based RPG.

When you talk about replacing agro, the next conclusion you will come to will always be that you need to fundamentally change the way each role works, along with many changes in the way gameplay works as well.  If you haven't figured that out yet, keep thinking it through.

Here are some blogs I found when searching for solutions to agro in the fantasy rpg (which I knew didn't exist).  Spoiler, there are no solutions without breaking down and rebuilding the role system from the ground up.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/BartStewart/20090902/2908/An_Alternative_to_Aggro.php

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DaveMark/20090906/2942/AI_and_MMOs%20__The_Controver#comment29512

The best part of these blogs are the comments at the bottom.  According to their own admissions the authors of the blogs did not find a way to "replace agro", though they did think of some interesting ways to enhance it.  Comments of Lee Cummings and Bart Stewart are especially informative.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO, ArcheAge and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
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Awaiting The Repopulation, Camelot Unchained & Shroud of the Avatar.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  mjr727

Novice Member

Joined: 4/01/04
Posts: 22

7/18/13 9:19:14 PM#140
These games where almost any class can handle 2 and 3 roles just isn't fun in my opinion.  Having to put together a group and actually play your role, not one of any 3 needed, makes the game challenging and builds a better community of groups.  Too many PUGs around when anyone can tank or swap to DPS with the click of a button.
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