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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » POLL: Do you want an aggro managment in EQN?

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154 posts found
  kellian1

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 232

7/17/13 6:36:22 PM#101
Yes I do, and I don't mean an agro system that revolves around my healer wife not paying attention and agroing an entire bunch of badies either! 
  Dullahan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 790

Death to Themepark.

7/17/13 6:46:05 PM#102
Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by craftseeker

This is a difficult one for me to answer.

I loved the aggro management in EQ2 however as I believe that we should see an end to the tank in MMORPGs and move to a different model of combat I cannot vote in this poll. 

I really think mobs should attack based on different algorithims ones that never allow any player to be 100% certain to be subject the next target for an attack and no player in range would have a 0% chance of being the next target for an attack.

this.

 

why? because only an idiot throws all the forces at his disposal towards one guy with a shield while ignoring everyone else healing guy-with-shield, OR ignoring them as they beat relentlessly on said idiot.

 

to me aggro control screams fake like almost nothing else in an mmo. its a complete immersion breaker and creates the single most boring combat scenarios ever dreamed up.

To me, nothing screams fake and immersion breaker louder than illogical and completely unpredictable mobs.

Agro = logic

You can have mobs switch targets, attack other players or multiple players, or even everyone at once, but that doesn't mean you remove agro from the equation.  A system without agro is chaos.  Chaos is bad and stupid.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO, ArcheAge and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, Camelot Unchained & Shroud of the Avatar.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/17/13 7:24:48 PM#103
Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by craftseeker

This is a difficult one for me to answer.

I loved the aggro management in EQ2 however as I believe that we should see an end to the tank in MMORPGs and move to a different model of combat I cannot vote in this poll. 

I really think mobs should attack based on different algorithims ones that never allow any player to be 100% certain to be subject the next target for an attack and no player in range would have a 0% chance of being the next target for an attack.

this.

 

why? because only an idiot throws all the forces at his disposal towards one guy with a shield while ignoring everyone else healing guy-with-shield, OR ignoring them as they beat relentlessly on said idiot.

 

to me aggro control screams fake like almost nothing else in an mmo. its a complete immersion breaker and creates the single most boring combat scenarios ever dreamed up.

^This^

As I mentioned before, trinity agro systems are cute and novel, but they are extremely fake, predictable, and unrealistic immersion breakers.

This may be one reason why I actually enjoyed GW2.  I never felt "safe" in the game, regardless of what role I was playing.  Sitting back 25 meters and shooting fireballs at a mob and the next moment that mob could be on top of me trying to kick my ass.  This is real* combat.  Where everyone is in the fray and everyone needs to be on guard.

You can nit pick the mechanics of GW2 all you want, but it's mechanics set out to create this type of more-realistic combat and it achieved that goal.  Yes it has some flaws, but show me a game that doesn't have flaws.  The point was that it was a step in the right direction to making more exciting and dynamic combat.

The trinity combat systems are fun in their own way, but we've been there done that in so many games.

Another player pointed out another good system that would be interesting (positioning for agro).  I think it would bring a lot of skill and control into the tank role, and it could obviously be designed where the tank can only do so much and the other classes still have to defend themselves.  It would be a much more interesting combat system.

Whatever direction EQN goes in, I hope the combat is fresh and exciting.  I don't want to push 1 2 3 4 and have all monsters ignore me just because some other class wearing plate armor pushed a button labeled "Taunt".

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/17/13 7:32:04 PM#104
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by craftseeker

This is a difficult one for me to answer.

I loved the aggro management in EQ2 however as I believe that we should see an end to the tank in MMORPGs and move to a different model of combat I cannot vote in this poll. 

I really think mobs should attack based on different algorithims ones that never allow any player to be 100% certain to be subject the next target for an attack and no player in range would have a 0% chance of being the next target for an attack.

this.

 

why? because only an idiot throws all the forces at his disposal towards one guy with a shield while ignoring everyone else healing guy-with-shield, OR ignoring them as they beat relentlessly on said idiot.

 

to me aggro control screams fake like almost nothing else in an mmo. its a complete immersion breaker and creates the single most boring combat scenarios ever dreamed up.

To me, nothing screams fake and immersion breaker louder than illogical and completely unpredictable mobs.

Agro = logic

You can have mobs switch targets, attack other players or multiple players, or even everyone at once, but that doesn't mean you remove agro from the equation.  A system without agro is chaos.  Chaos is bad and stupid.

Ya, Logic.

Like attacking some guy holding a shield, wearing thick armor with shoulder pads up over his head taking near no damage from your blows, and ignoring the elf wearing a dress shooting fireballs at you because the guy wearing plate said something insulting about your mother.

Perfectly logical?  I think not.

You want to see logic in action, play PVP.  The tank is almost always the last guy to get attacked.  Clothies and healers die first, generally followed by scouts, and tanks are left to die last, almost every time in every game.

Tanks in PVP generally perform realistic protection roles.  Like they shield bash an enemy that's hitting the healer/dps class to stun him and take the heat off the weaker class.  He charges at the enemy knocks him back.  He casts protection spells on the team to help mitigate damage his allies would have taken.  He positions himself between a foe and monster to take the hit that the caster/dps/healer would have taken. 

THAT is logical.

A system where tanks are protectors of other classes, but are almost never the primary target of an enemy's attack, and mobs aim for the most vulnerable and weakest looking player.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6176

7/17/13 7:58:27 PM#105
Originally posted by mos0811
Originally posted by someforumguy
Well the poll shows it. Holy trinity class system with tank-spank aggro management, Yeah, that will be a sandbox alright :/

There in lies some of the problem in discussing this; aggro management is a pure PvE mechanic.  You don't need the holy trinity in PvP games, you need good teamwork.  As I've said before, I believe that PvP needs to be the primary element around which a sandbox is built; with PvE as the add on. 

So if the game is sandbox with good PvP, how is that managed in respects to PvE.  I just hope I won't ever have to use aggro mechanics in EQN because I will be enjoying the PvP side of the game too much.

The trini exist in PvP as well. The strong Melee warrior that is hard to kill, runs into a pack of enemy players and CCing them taunting them as the warrior bashes away at the groups HP. They turn their attention to pushing off this warrior, who is getting support heals and buffs from the high aggro healer/support who is hiding behind a wall of these warriors. The range fighters stay back and guard the healer while dishing out the large damage on the warrior's targets and applying cc to prevent the run offs from killing healers and group members.

 

sounds very much like the trinity to me. I played games like Rift's PvP back in the day and experienced this first hand. Being Melee and hard to kill and insulting, was very close role to PvE tanks. Fuctioned the same way. Run in , enemy players get annoyed at what you are doing, as well as the fact that they are having trouble killing you. That makes them want to destroy you more as you sit there mocking them with "lols" .

 

in trinity PvE the healer is usually the second top hate list next to tanks. Again just like PvP.

  aspekx

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

7/17/13 8:08:38 PM#106
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Karble
everyone can revive? Everyone can self heal? everyone can tank? Everyone can DPS? Sounds more like a zerging game to me. I played many of the dungeons and, while there were some encounters that were interesting, many were just a cluster....
Agro control oldschool style needs to come back and be in full effect. I would totally enjoy also some oldschool EQ1 team vs team server mechanics so that guilds form in different ways based on the various team mechanics and PvP is exciting and adds another level of tension to an already fun game. Maybe there will be separate servers or maybe there will be starting safe areas and as you branch out further you go to partial pvp and then total pvp.

Everyone can't do everything at the same time.  You have to build your character to your play style/preferences or to what the group needs.

You can't have a character that tops DPS, tanks mobs and heals everyone at the same time.  The more you specialize in one role, the more other roles you could have been suffer.

Yes, many people did think GW2 was a frustrating cluster.  You can go on youtube and watch people wiping over and over again on lvl 30 content.

But that wasn't the fault of the game.  That was a fault of the players encountering a new type of system and not knowing wtf to do, along with the devs who thought it would be cool to give players what they always beg for. "More challenge.

Well, be careful what you wish for! lol.  You might just get it.

 

thank you. this is exactly what i wanted to say.

 

it doesn't matter whether you want oldschool or not, the fact that GW2 players were given a completely different style of play and could or could not adapt was not the fault of the game. it was an inability to adapt to a completely different experience and set of mechanics.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1844

7/17/13 8:16:24 PM#107
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by mos0811
Originally posted by someforumguy
Well the poll shows it. Holy trinity class system with tank-spank aggro management, Yeah, that will be a sandbox alright :/

There in lies some of the problem in discussing this; aggro management is a pure PvE mechanic.  You don't need the holy trinity in PvP games, you need good teamwork.  As I've said before, I believe that PvP needs to be the primary element around which a sandbox is built; with PvE as the add on. 

So if the game is sandbox with good PvP, how is that managed in respects to PvE.  I just hope I won't ever have to use aggro mechanics in EQN because I will be enjoying the PvP side of the game too much.

The trini exist in PvP as well. The strong Melee warrior that is hard to kill, runs into a pack of enemy players and CCing them taunting them as the warrior bashes away at the groups HP. They turn their attention to pushing off this warrior, who is getting support heals and buffs from the high aggro healer/support who is hiding behind a wall of these warriors. The range fighters stay back and guard the healer while dishing out the large damage on the warrior's targets and applying cc to prevent the run offs from killing healers and group members.

 

sounds very much like the trinity to me. I played games like Rift's PvP back in the day and experienced this first hand. Being Melee and hard to kill and insulting, was very close role to PvE tanks. Fuctioned the same way. Run in , enemy players get annoyed at what you are doing, as well as the fact that they are having trouble killing you. That makes them want to destroy you more as you sit there mocking them with "lols" .

 

in trinity PvE the healer is usually the second top hate list next to tanks. Again just like PvP.

Sounds more like a PVE'er trying to describe how to PVP.  Only bads or PVE'ers who occasionally queue in a theme park BG will try to focus a tanking warrior that runs into their group.  Better PVP'ers will just ignore the tank and save him for last.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  aspekx

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

7/17/13 8:22:26 PM#108
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by mos0811
Originally posted by someforumguy
Well the poll shows it. Holy trinity class system with tank-spank aggro management, Yeah, that will be a sandbox alright :/

There in lies some of the problem in discussing this; aggro management is a pure PvE mechanic.  You don't need the holy trinity in PvP games, you need good teamwork.  As I've said before, I believe that PvP needs to be the primary element around which a sandbox is built; with PvE as the add on. 

So if the game is sandbox with good PvP, how is that managed in respects to PvE.  I just hope I won't ever have to use aggro mechanics in EQN because I will be enjoying the PvP side of the game too much.

The trini exist in PvP as well. The strong Melee warrior that is hard to kill, runs into a pack of enemy players and CCing them taunting them as the warrior bashes away at the groups HP. They turn their attention to pushing off this warrior, who is getting support heals and buffs from the high aggro healer/support who is hiding behind a wall of these warriors. The range fighters stay back and guard the healer while dishing out the large damage on the warrior's targets and applying cc to prevent the run offs from killing healers and group members.

 

sounds very much like the trinity to me. I played games like Rift's PvP back in the day and experienced this first hand. Being Melee and hard to kill and insulting, was very close role to PvE tanks. Fuctioned the same way. Run in , enemy players get annoyed at what you are doing, as well as the fact that they are having trouble killing you. That makes them want to destroy you more as you sit there mocking them with "lols" .

 

in trinity PvE the healer is usually the second top hate list next to tanks. Again just like PvP.

then i certainly would not want to count on those players in any game with a set of mechanics more complex than they can clearly handle.

 

if you pvp for any length of time or with any real seriousness you are going to quickly learn not to get distracted. (admittedly its easy to do so when you first start out.) but anyone who is still chasing the pally bubble across warsong gulch isn't someone who is paying attention and it is doubtful they are someone you would want on a difficult raid, even just a more complex tank'n'spank raid.

 

i would add the same for trying to chase a renewal druid between the towers of eye of the storm. you cannot win that way.

 

and i say all this from personal experience, i have been that idiot. but just a momentary reflection after one encounter like that should be enough to make you aware of what's happening.

 

so here's my argument: if an ancient elder dragon is not smart enough to have figured all this out in the millenia before you meet him, then i'd ask him for some kind of ID to check his real age. having idiot AI is not fun. and i will agree with part of a post above, neither is pure chaos (unless its part of the plan :). but no one is suggesting pure chaos. there may be some, as there is in any severe combat scenario, but it should not be a given that if player X has tankiness therefore all evilness focuses on him.

 

honestly, if you called a real ancient dragon a name to distract her, chances are she's going to flick you aside with her tail and eat your mage.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Dullahan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 790

Death to Themepark.

7/17/13 8:23:41 PM#109
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by craftseeker

This is a difficult one for me to answer.

I loved the aggro management in EQ2 however as I believe that we should see an end to the tank in MMORPGs and move to a different model of combat I cannot vote in this poll. 

I really think mobs should attack based on different algorithims ones that never allow any player to be 100% certain to be subject the next target for an attack and no player in range would have a 0% chance of being the next target for an attack.

this.

 

why? because only an idiot throws all the forces at his disposal towards one guy with a shield while ignoring everyone else healing guy-with-shield, OR ignoring them as they beat relentlessly on said idiot.

 

to me aggro control screams fake like almost nothing else in an mmo. its a complete immersion breaker and creates the single most boring combat scenarios ever dreamed up.

To me, nothing screams fake and immersion breaker louder than illogical and completely unpredictable mobs.

Agro = logic

You can have mobs switch targets, attack other players or multiple players, or even everyone at once, but that doesn't mean you remove agro from the equation.  A system without agro is chaos.  Chaos is bad and stupid.

Ya, Logic.

Like attacking some guy holding a shield, wearing thick armor with shoulder pads up over his head taking near no damage from your blows, and ignoring the elf wearing a dress shooting fireballs at you because the guy wearing plate said something insulting about your mother.

Perfectly logical?  I think not.

You want to see logic in action, play PVP.  The tank is almost always the last guy to get attacked.  Clothies and healers die first, generally followed by scouts, and tanks are left to die last, almost every time in every game.

Tanks in PVP generally perform realistic protection roles.  Like they shield bash an enemy that's hitting the healer/dps class to stun him and take the heat off the weaker class.  He charges at the enemy knocks him back.  He casts protection spells on the team to help mitigate damage his allies would have taken.  He positions himself between a foe and monster to take the hit that the caster/dps/healer would have taken. 

THAT is logical.

A system where tanks are protectors of other classes, but are almost never the primary target of an enemy's attack, and mobs aim for the most vulnerable and weakest looking player.

You can't have AI attack players simply based on potential damage.  Like I said, think it through, it boils down to nothing but chaos.

Suggesting tanks should somehow possess super blocking powers that prevent a mob from reaching their target is the same thing as suggesting a tanks have agro to prevent mobs from attacking others... only stupider.

No one player, not even a tank can stop more powerful mob.  Even with collision, a tank can't logically prevent a powerful mob or monster from attacking a caster or healer.  Thats ridiculous.  Just scale it up.. think big.  Giants, dragons, gods?  Ya, this measily little tank is going to block the monster from getting at his potential victims.

The tank being able to keep the monster distracted, angry, and from focusing on those incapable of withstanding his beating is far more logical.  Thats agro.

Thats not to say I don't agree, tank placement should be imperative.  Having action combat where tanks stand in front of the rest of a party or raid should be integrated in, but the idea that a more powerful monster couldn't just throw the tank out of the way if he really wanted to is just silly.  He needs a reason to not throw him out of the way - agro.

In fact, EQ had this mechanic as far back as Velious with mobs that flurried.  You had to keep 3 tanks on top of the agro so when other players came up to nuke, they didn't get destroyed.  Every time the mob flurried, the 3 tanks would take the damage.  Agro is still imperative for that system, because the mobs would just go past the tanks and attack the rest of the party. /facepalm

Or go on trying to reinvent the wheel.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO, ArcheAge and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, Camelot Unchained & Shroud of the Avatar.
-
Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

7/17/13 8:27:23 PM#110
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by craftseeker

This is a difficult one for me to answer.

I loved the aggro management in EQ2 however as I believe that we should see an end to the tank in MMORPGs and move to a different model of combat I cannot vote in this poll. 

I really think mobs should attack based on different algorithims ones that never allow any player to be 100% certain to be subject the next target for an attack and no player in range would have a 0% chance of being the next target for an attack.

this.

 

why? because only an idiot throws all the forces at his disposal towards one guy with a shield while ignoring everyone else healing guy-with-shield, OR ignoring them as they beat relentlessly on said idiot.

 

to me aggro control screams fake like almost nothing else in an mmo. its a complete immersion breaker and creates the single most boring combat scenarios ever dreamed up.

To me, nothing screams fake and immersion breaker louder than illogical and completely unpredictable mobs.

Agro = logic

You can have mobs switch targets, attack other players or multiple players, or even everyone at once, but that doesn't mean you remove agro from the equation.  A system without agro is chaos.  Chaos is bad and stupid.

Ya, Logic.

Like attacking some guy holding a shield, wearing thick armor with shoulder pads up over his head taking near no damage from your blows, and ignoring the elf wearing a dress shooting fireballs at you because the guy wearing plate said something insulting about your mother.

Perfectly logical?  I think not.

You want to see logic in action, play PVP.  The tank is almost always the last guy to get attacked.  Clothies and healers die first, generally followed by scouts, and tanks are left to die last, almost every time in every game.

Tanks in PVP generally perform realistic protection roles.  Like they shield bash an enemy that's hitting the healer/dps class to stun him and take the heat off the weaker class.  He charges at the enemy knocks him back.  He casts protection spells on the team to help mitigate damage his allies would have taken.  He positions himself between a foe and monster to take the hit that the caster/dps/healer would have taken. 

THAT is logical.

A system where tanks are protectors of other classes, but are almost never the primary target of an enemy's attack, and mobs aim for the most vulnerable and weakest looking player.

 This times a thousand.

 

Agro (god I hate that term) threat should not be something a player can predict and as such the roles should come from interaction within that environment.  Like you said the Boss should almost always try to kill healers and squishies first but it is the tanks role to intercede on their behalf, deflect blows, and protect their team mates.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  aspekx

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

7/17/13 8:29:17 PM#111
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by craftseeker

This is a difficult one for me to answer.

I loved the aggro management in EQ2 however as I believe that we should see an end to the tank in MMORPGs and move to a different model of combat I cannot vote in this poll. 

I really think mobs should attack based on different algorithims ones that never allow any player to be 100% certain to be subject the next target for an attack and no player in range would have a 0% chance of being the next target for an attack.

this.

 

why? because only an idiot throws all the forces at his disposal towards one guy with a shield while ignoring everyone else healing guy-with-shield, OR ignoring them as they beat relentlessly on said idiot.

 

to me aggro control screams fake like almost nothing else in an mmo. its a complete immersion breaker and creates the single most boring combat scenarios ever dreamed up.

To me, nothing screams fake and immersion breaker louder than illogical and completely unpredictable mobs.

Agro = logic

You can have mobs switch targets, attack other players or multiple players, or even everyone at once, but that doesn't mean you remove agro from the equation.  A system without agro is chaos.  Chaos is bad and stupid.

Ya, Logic.

Like attacking some guy holding a shield, wearing thick armor with shoulder pads up over his head taking near no damage from your blows, and ignoring the elf wearing a dress shooting fireballs at you because the guy wearing plate said something insulting about your mother.

Perfectly logical?  I think not.

You want to see logic in action, play PVP.  The tank is almost always the last guy to get attacked.  Clothies and healers die first, generally followed by scouts, and tanks are left to die last, almost every time in every game.

Tanks in PVP generally perform realistic protection roles.  Like they shield bash an enemy that's hitting the healer/dps class to stun him and take the heat off the weaker class.  He charges at the enemy knocks him back.  He casts protection spells on the team to help mitigate damage his allies would have taken.  He positions himself between a foe and monster to take the hit that the caster/dps/healer would have taken. 

THAT is logical.

A system where tanks are protectors of other classes, but are almost never the primary target of an enemy's attack, and mobs aim for the most vulnerable and weakest looking player.

You can't have AI attack players simply based on potential damage.  Like I said, think it through, it boils down to nothing but chaos.

Suggesting tanks should somehow possess super blocking powers that prevent a mob from reaching their target is the same thing as suggesting a tanks have agro to prevent mobs from attacking others... only stupider.

No one player, not even a tank can stop more powerful mob.  Even with collision, a tank can't logically prevent a powerful mob or monster from attacking a caster or healer.  Thats ridiculous.  Just scale it up.. think big.  Giants, dragons, gods?  Ya, this measily little tank is going to block the monster from getting at his potential victims.

The tank being able to keep the monster distracted, angry, and from focusing on those incapable of withstanding his beating is far more logical.  Thats agro.

Thats not to say I don't agree, tank placement should be imperative.  Having action combat where tanks stand in front of the rest of a party or raid should be integrated in, but the idea that a more powerful monster couldn't just throw the tank out of the way if he really wanted to is just silly.  He needs a reason to not throw him out of the way - agro.

Or go on trying to reinvent the wheel.

that smacks more of disappointment in a system you feel failed you, not someone who fundamentally thinks tank'n'spank is the only true path of enlightenment to mmo glory.

 

to be clear i dont want to appear to be attacking you. im not, but it just seems from what you have been saying that you have definitely tried other forms and found them lacking.

 

and i won't argue with you there completely. new forms are just that, new, therefore they don't always work well or even work as intended.

 

i dont think that means we just chuck the whole thing and go back. let's keep pushing forward and find a better way to do something new.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  aspekx

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

7/17/13 8:32:16 PM#112
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by craftseeker

This is a difficult one for me to answer.

I loved the aggro management in EQ2 however as I believe that we should see an end to the tank in MMORPGs and move to a different model of combat I cannot vote in this poll. 

I really think mobs should attack based on different algorithims ones that never allow any player to be 100% certain to be subject the next target for an attack and no player in range would have a 0% chance of being the next target for an attack.

this.

 

why? because only an idiot throws all the forces at his disposal towards one guy with a shield while ignoring everyone else healing guy-with-shield, OR ignoring them as they beat relentlessly on said idiot.

 

to me aggro control screams fake like almost nothing else in an mmo. its a complete immersion breaker and creates the single most boring combat scenarios ever dreamed up.

To me, nothing screams fake and immersion breaker louder than illogical and completely unpredictable mobs.

Agro = logic

You can have mobs switch targets, attack other players or multiple players, or even everyone at once, but that doesn't mean you remove agro from the equation.  A system without agro is chaos.  Chaos is bad and stupid.

Ya, Logic.

Like attacking some guy holding a shield, wearing thick armor with shoulder pads up over his head taking near no damage from your blows, and ignoring the elf wearing a dress shooting fireballs at you because the guy wearing plate said something insulting about your mother.

Perfectly logical?  I think not.

You want to see logic in action, play PVP.  The tank is almost always the last guy to get attacked.  Clothies and healers die first, generally followed by scouts, and tanks are left to die last, almost every time in every game.

Tanks in PVP generally perform realistic protection roles.  Like they shield bash an enemy that's hitting the healer/dps class to stun him and take the heat off the weaker class.  He charges at the enemy knocks him back.  He casts protection spells on the team to help mitigate damage his allies would have taken.  He positions himself between a foe and monster to take the hit that the caster/dps/healer would have taken. 

THAT is logical.

A system where tanks are protectors of other classes, but are almost never the primary target of an enemy's attack, and mobs aim for the most vulnerable and weakest looking player.

 

^exactly what's described there.

PvP'rs complain that PvE AI is no challenge. im arguing that we should make it a challenge.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Dullahan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 790

Death to Themepark.

7/17/13 8:35:46 PM#113

Also, while we're comparing PvE to PvP to trash agro, lets look at how it really goes down in PvP.

In PvP, if you see a caster you attack them.  In PvE, if you engage a mob and a caster immediately nukes the mob, it attacks them.  Their damage will over- what class? Overagro.  In PvE casters don't nuke immediately.  In PvP, they generally do, thus you attack them first.  Thats actually one of the things I avoided doing the most as a caster in PvP.  I'd wait until the fighting was hot and heavy and people were distracted, then I'd come out discreetly and let the bodies hit the floor.  Theres nothing I love more in pvp as melee dps than seeing casters jump out in the beginning of pvp like suprise, muthaf*ka, and I just down them immediately.  Quite similar to how it works in PvE...

Frankly, if it was up to me, I'd have agro abilities play a role in PvP as well.  That would be a more intelligent system.  When that rogue is running at your cleric, you taunt and spin him around and shift his target to you.  Even if its only for a second.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO, ArcheAge and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, Camelot Unchained & Shroud of the Avatar.
-
Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6176

7/17/13 8:38:26 PM#114
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by mos0811
Originally posted by someforumguy
Well the poll shows it. Holy trinity class system with tank-spank aggro management, Yeah, that will be a sandbox alright :/

There in lies some of the problem in discussing this; aggro management is a pure PvE mechanic.  You don't need the holy trinity in PvP games, you need good teamwork.  As I've said before, I believe that PvP needs to be the primary element around which a sandbox is built; with PvE as the add on. 

So if the game is sandbox with good PvP, how is that managed in respects to PvE.  I just hope I won't ever have to use aggro mechanics in EQN because I will be enjoying the PvP side of the game too much.

The trini exist in PvP as well. The strong Melee warrior that is hard to kill, runs into a pack of enemy players and CCing them taunting them as the warrior bashes away at the groups HP. They turn their attention to pushing off this warrior, who is getting support heals and buffs from the high aggro healer/support who is hiding behind a wall of these warriors. The range fighters stay back and guard the healer while dishing out the large damage on the warrior's targets and applying cc to prevent the run offs from killing healers and group members.

 

sounds very much like the trinity to me. I played games like Rift's PvP back in the day and experienced this first hand. Being Melee and hard to kill and insulting, was very close role to PvE tanks. Fuctioned the same way. Run in , enemy players get annoyed at what you are doing, as well as the fact that they are having trouble killing you. That makes them want to destroy you more as you sit there mocking them with "lols" .

 

in trinity PvE the healer is usually the second top hate list next to tanks. Again just like PvP.

Sounds more like a PVE'er trying to describe how to PVP.  Only bads or PVE'ers who occasionally queue in a theme park BG will try to focus a tanking warrior that runs into their group.  Better PVP'ers will just ignore the tank and save him for last.

That's seem like a lame counter argument. In Rift the warrior was very strong and tough. The warrior was like a PvE tank but with PvE damage. It had a weakness of lack of support. But to ignore the warrior would be foolish and would lead to your own downfall.

in group PvP, I use to lead my group with warriors leading the charge, or Melee clerics and other Melee fighters like Rogues.

the same tactic as the trinity expect in pvp;

Melee fighters ==Tank (same as the trinity here really when you think about it) tank == CC attention seekers.

Healers == healers.

range fighter == DPS / CC/ debuffers

 

melee warriors and Justicar/tank Melee build clerics lead the charge. The Justicar draw attention from being a Melee fighter that also a cleric. That is auto threat alone by being a cleric. 

You also build hate from your massive AoE heals, which also keeps you alive and makes you hard to kill like a tank in PvE. Ignore the cleric and it will simply beat on you and cc you while healing the team.

the warrior on the other hand is a more offensive PvP tank than the cleric. It lays down the cc and burst damage. So if your team attacks the warrior tank's target, just like in PvE, that makes the warrior seem even more of a threat because you seem to not be able to escape their blades.

 

healers draw aggro as well like in PvE. Healers have to be smart in how they choose who lives and who dies. They need to keep the tank alive and well while worrying about themselves as well. Long as tank is alive the attack can be pushed into enemy territory. Debuffers need to do their job of making the tank seem more of a threat. Also defending healers.

 

 

its lots of tactics. And it all comes down to trinity mechanics. I explained this before on the rift forum. It's easier to show than to type in words how people react in combat with real humans. It's very similar to the trinity concept, just without the artificial hate chart but real hate/threat charts.

i don't k ow anybody in rift vanilla PvP that didnt see the warrior as a huge threat/hate target. 

 

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1844

7/17/13 8:47:55 PM#115
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by mos0811
Originally posted by someforumguy
Well the poll shows it. Holy trinity class system with tank-spank aggro management, Yeah, that will be a sandbox alright :/

There in lies some of the problem in discussing this; aggro management is a pure PvE mechanic.  You don't need the holy trinity in PvP games, you need good teamwork.  As I've said before, I believe that PvP needs to be the primary element around which a sandbox is built; with PvE as the add on. 

So if the game is sandbox with good PvP, how is that managed in respects to PvE.  I just hope I won't ever have to use aggro mechanics in EQN because I will be enjoying the PvP side of the game too much.

The trini exist in PvP as well. The strong Melee warrior that is hard to kill, runs into a pack of enemy players and CCing them taunting them as the warrior bashes away at the groups HP. They turn their attention to pushing off this warrior, who is getting support heals and buffs from the high aggro healer/support who is hiding behind a wall of these warriors. The range fighters stay back and guard the healer while dishing out the large damage on the warrior's targets and applying cc to prevent the run offs from killing healers and group members.

 

sounds very much like the trinity to me. I played games like Rift's PvP back in the day and experienced this first hand. Being Melee and hard to kill and insulting, was very close role to PvE tanks. Fuctioned the same way. Run in , enemy players get annoyed at what you are doing, as well as the fact that they are having trouble killing you. That makes them want to destroy you more as you sit there mocking them with "lols" .

 

in trinity PvE the healer is usually the second top hate list next to tanks. Again just like PvP.

Sounds more like a PVE'er trying to describe how to PVP.  Only bads or PVE'ers who occasionally queue in a theme park BG will try to focus a tanking warrior that runs into their group.  Better PVP'ers will just ignore the tank and save him for last.

That's seem like a lame counter argument. In Rift the warrior was very strong and tough. The warrior was like a PvE tank but with PvE damage. It had a weakness of lack of support. But to ignore the warrior would be foolish and would lead to your own downfall.

in group PvP, I use to lead my group with warriors leading the charge, or Melee clerics and other Melee fighters like Rogues.

the same tactic as the trinity expect in pvp;

Melee fighters ==Tank (same as the trinity here really when you think about it) tank == CC attention seekers.

Healers == healers.

range fighter == DPS / CC/ debuffers

 

melee warriors and Justicar/tank Melee build clerics lead the charge. The Justicar draw attention from being a Melee fighter that also a cleric. That is auto threat alone by being a cleric. 

You also build hate from your massive AoE heals, which also keeps you alive and makes you hard to kill like a tank in PvE. Ignore the cleric and it will simply beat on you and cc you while healing the team.

the warrior on the other hand is a more offensive PvP tank than the cleric. It lays down the cc and burst damage. So if your team attacks the warrior tank's target, just like in PvE, that makes the warrior seem even more of a threat because you seem to not be able to escape their blades.

 

healers draw aggro as well like in PvE. Healers have to be smart in how they choose who lives and who dies. They need to keep the tank alive and well while worrying about themselves as well. Long as tank is alive the attack can be pushed into enemy territory. Debuffers need to do their job of making the tank seem more of a threat. Also defending healers.

 

 

its lots of tactics. And it all comes down to trinity mechanics. I explained this before on the rift forum. It's easier to show than to type in words how people react in combat with real humans. It's very similar to the trinity concept, just without the artificial hate chart but real hate/threat charts.

i don't k ow anybody in rift vanilla PvP that didnt see the warrior as a huge threat/hate target. 

 

So did you encourage your team to focus on the tanks who were getting the heals or to go around them to get the dps'ers and healers?   If you told your people to focus the tanks then you are exactly the type of player I love to come across in PVP,... just saying.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  issling

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/09/12
Posts: 129

I have my rose tinted glass's at a full shine!

7/17/13 8:51:21 PM#116
Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by craftseeker

This is a difficult one for me to answer.

I loved the aggro management in EQ2 however as I believe that we should see an end to the tank in MMORPGs and move to a different model of combat I cannot vote in this poll. 

I really think mobs should attack based on different algorithims ones that never allow any player to be 100% certain to be subject the next target for an attack and no player in range would have a 0% chance of being the next target for an attack.

this.

 

why? because only an idiot throws all the forces at his disposal towards one guy with a shield while ignoring everyone else healing guy-with-shield, OR ignoring them as they beat relentlessly on said idiot.

 

to me aggro control screams fake like almost nothing else in an mmo. its a complete immersion breaker and creates the single most boring combat scenarios ever dreamed up.

And if you heal to much the mobs attacks you,  if you dps to much the mob attacks you. It takes a team and knowing your team mates. The problem is you guys want it all to easy so you can do your dungeon finders and cross realms and everybody can just instantly do all content. Whats the diffrence between a Warrior and a Necro in EQ1? Whats the diffrence between a Warrior and a Necro in GW2?

Unless you have Addon's and If they EQnext has Addon's like gearscore and aggro ones, then I will just give up:(

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/17/13 10:24:10 PM#117
Originally posted by Dullahan

Also, while we're comparing PvE to PvP to trash agro, lets look at how it really goes down in PvP.

In PvP, if you see a caster you attack them.  In PvE, if you engage a mob and a caster immediately nukes the mob, it attacks them.  Their damage will over- what class? Overagro.  In PvE casters don't nuke immediately.  In PvP, they generally do, thus you attack them first.  Thats actually one of the things I avoided doing the most as a caster in PvP.  I'd wait until the fighting was hot and heavy and people were distracted, then I'd come out discreetly and let the bodies hit the floor.  Theres nothing I love more in pvp as melee dps than seeing casters jump out in the beginning of pvp like suprise, muthaf*ka, and I just down them immediately.  Quite similar to how it works in PvE...

Frankly, if it was up to me, I'd have agro abilities play a role in PvP as well.  That would be a more intelligent system.  When that rogue is running at your cleric, you taunt and spin him around and shift his target to you.  Even if its only for a second.

Actually, in most games I just look for the guy wearing a dress or looks like a healer.  If the game has tab target HUD indicators for class I look at that.  If it doesn't I look at clothing, race, etc, to determine who dies first.  I generally don't need to wait for them to cast a spell before I know who to kill.  In fact, I prefer it when they use your method of "hanging back" and not fighting.  It means my group takes less damage before I kill the caster.

 

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Grailer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 849

7/17/13 10:40:26 PM#118

I want tanks to beable to taunt and hold threat against other players in PvP .

 

So the players would have to kill the tank first before finishing off the rest of the group .  AoE should still damage everyone tho .

 

This would bring a great dynamic to PvP .

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6176

7/17/13 11:41:28 PM#119
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by mos0811
Originally posted by someforumguy
Well the poll shows it. Holy trinity class system with tank-spank aggro management, Yeah, that will be a sandbox alright :/

There in lies some of the problem in discussing this; aggro management is a pure PvE mechanic.  You don't need the holy trinity in PvP games, you need good teamwork.  As I've said before, I believe that PvP needs to be the primary element around which a sandbox is built; with PvE as the add on. 

So if the game is sandbox with good PvP, how is that managed in respects to PvE.  I just hope I won't ever have to use aggro mechanics in EQN because I will be enjoying the PvP side of the game too much.

The trini exist in PvP as well. The strong Melee warrior that is hard to kill, runs into a pack of enemy players and CCing them taunting them as the warrior bashes away at the groups HP. They turn their attention to pushing off this warrior, who is getting support heals and buffs from the high aggro healer/support who is hiding behind a wall of these warriors. The range fighters stay back and guard the healer while dishing out the large damage on the warrior's targets and applying cc to prevent the run offs from killing healers and group members.

 

sounds very much like the trinity to me. I played games like Rift's PvP back in the day and experienced this first hand. Being Melee and hard to kill and insulting, was very close role to PvE tanks. Fuctioned the same way. Run in , enemy players get annoyed at what you are doing, as well as the fact that they are having trouble killing you. That makes them want to destroy you more as you sit there mocking them with "lols" .

 

in trinity PvE the healer is usually the second top hate list next to tanks. Again just like PvP.

Sounds more like a PVE'er trying to describe how to PVP.  Only bads or PVE'ers who occasionally queue in a theme park BG will try to focus a tanking warrior that runs into their group.  Better PVP'ers will just ignore the tank and save him for last.

That's seem like a lame counter argument. In Rift the warrior was very strong and tough. The warrior was like a PvE tank but with PvE damage. It had a weakness of lack of support. But to ignore the warrior would be foolish and would lead to your own downfall.

in group PvP, I use to lead my group with warriors leading the charge, or Melee clerics and other Melee fighters like Rogues.

the same tactic as the trinity expect in pvp;

Melee fighters ==Tank (same as the trinity here really when you think about it) tank == CC attention seekers.

Healers == healers.

range fighter == DPS / CC/ debuffers

 

melee warriors and Justicar/tank Melee build clerics lead the charge. The Justicar draw attention from being a Melee fighter that also a cleric. That is auto threat alone by being a cleric. 

You also build hate from your massive AoE heals, which also keeps you alive and makes you hard to kill like a tank in PvE. Ignore the cleric and it will simply beat on you and cc you while healing the team.

the warrior on the other hand is a more offensive PvP tank than the cleric. It lays down the cc and burst damage. So if your team attacks the warrior tank's target, just like in PvE, that makes the warrior seem even more of a threat because you seem to not be able to escape their blades.

 

healers draw aggro as well like in PvE. Healers have to be smart in how they choose who lives and who dies. They need to keep the tank alive and well while worrying about themselves as well. Long as tank is alive the attack can be pushed into enemy territory. Debuffers need to do their job of making the tank seem more of a threat. Also defending healers.

 

 

its lots of tactics. And it all comes down to trinity mechanics. I explained this before on the rift forum. It's easier to show than to type in words how people react in combat with real humans. It's very similar to the trinity concept, just without the artificial hate chart but real hate/threat charts.

i don't k ow anybody in rift vanilla PvP that didnt see the warrior as a huge threat/hate target. 

 

So did you encourage your team to focus on the tanks who were getting the heals or to go around them to get the dps'ers and healers?   If you told your people to focus the tanks then you are exactly the type of player I love to come across in PVP,... just saying.

Cc focus on enemy tank. Our tank focus on grabbing aggro of group. Debuffers debuff tank's target. As well as CC tank's target if possible. Support make sure debuffs are removed from team's tanks, while also healing the DPS. Healers focus on keeping themselves and the tank alive.

Wi this trinity in place we pushed the enemy focus back and kept control of the field. We had better tanks. Tanks == field controllers. Both for PvP as well as PvE. Which is why they are so important. 

  User Deleted
7/17/13 11:53:03 PM#120
Yes and no. I would like to see the tanks be shook up a bit. Slam your shield in the face of a mob to draw its attention for a short duration, act as a human shield by blocking the part to your party, hamstring mobs so they slow down and attack you instead of trying to run for help. I don't want threat metres, I want realistic AI and skills to counter it. Tanking needs to be more than second rate DPS with inflated hate buffs and temp defence buffs.
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