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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » POLL: Do you want an aggro managment in EQN?

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154 posts found
  Gholos

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/13
Posts: 209

 
OP  7/17/13 6:50:36 AM#21

I have see some people here that dont want an aggro managment, trinity or a taunt skill in EQN, but no one of them have explain how an alternative system should works and allow a challenging PvE.

In my game expirience i have seen only 2 possible system:

1) CLASSIC SYSTEM (trinity with aggro managment) = that allow you to build up parties with classes that have a specific role and are all important for the group due their peculiar skills. A system that promote the collaboration and the coordination between players and need tatics in order to end a PvE  event.

2) GW2 SYSTEM = that dont need specific roles, where all the classes are supposed to do pratically the same things (healing self and do dps) and where every class can be replaced by another. You have only to think about your char. and to not being killed.

In my opinion with the GW2 system is nearly impossible to create PvE contet for more than 5 players party because there are no classes's roles...for more than 5 people party i intend real raids not the ridicolous world events of GW2 that are so simple that you can do it semi afk and in auto attack mode (you could do afk if the game have a decent targeting system).

So, if anyone know an alternative system for PvE, could explain how it can work?


"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.

  Ramanadjinn

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1286

7/17/13 7:19:00 AM#22
Originally posted by Gholos

I have see some people here that dont want an aggro managment, trinity or a taunt skill in EQN, but no one of them have explain how an alternative system should works and allow a challenging PvE.

In my game expirience i have seen only 2 possible system:

1) CLASSIC SYSTEM (trinity with aggro managment) = that allow you to build up parties with classes that have a specific role and are all important for the group due their peculiar skills. A system that promote the collaboration and the coordination between players and need tatics in order to end a PvE  event.

2) GW2 SYSTEM = that dont need specific roles, where all the classes are supposed to do pratically the same things (healing self and do dps) and where every class can be replaced by another. You have only to think about your char. and to not being killed.

In my opinion with the GW2 system is nearly imposible to create PvE contet for more than 5 players party because there are no classes's roles...for more than 5 people party i intend real raids not the ridicolous world events of GW2 that are so simple that you can do it semi afk and in auto attack mode (you could do afk if the game have a decent targeting system).

So, if anyone know an alternative system for PvE, could explain how it can work?

 

I am one who did not offer an alternative with notes on how to create challenging PVE.

There are several reasons I did not and will not.  

For one though, I do not feel the root of why PVE is not challening in most games lies in the aggro mechanic.  I found GW2's PVE extremely easy as I found it in SWTOR, Rift, and WOW.  I could argue PVE is more challenging without the aggro mechanics you enjoy but I will not make the claim as I would imagine the argument will go circular fast.  I feel the root cause of why it is often so easy is predictable, patterned, non-varianced artificial intelligence.

To elaborate on why I cannot offer an alternative, Artificial Intelligence is a very complex topic which spans horizons far beyond my education and more importantly, the education of many game designers and developers.  The task of creating an artificially intelligent opponent that is at an appropriate challenge level across a spectrum of varied human skill levels, that can stay challenging -- is an old challenge and it is a monumental one.  It is for that reason we don't see it done often, if ever.

 

  SethiusX

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 162

7/17/13 7:31:47 AM#23

The trinity setup of classes is a well established mmo convention at this point (not all games use it, but many do), and I think it works extremely well. A lot of people enjoy the roles or a specific role, so why remove it? The only thing that needs to be fixed is to implement some change to ensure that there are enough tanks and healers around, so that people are not waiting on them.

Also, I think personally the trinity should be modified to add a fourth, being the Crowd Control role which has much of its original heritage founded in EQ with the Enchanter and Bard. I think that role is unique enough that it could be re-added, with care and caution, and really add to the robust nature of group combat and enable the dev's to make even more interesting mechanics.

As others have said, GW2's role-less group play was a bit boring... you did not have to rely on your team very much, it was mostly every man for himself. It takes the strategy out of it in many ways, and I did not like that.

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2823

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

7/17/13 7:36:40 AM#24
Most likely yes, though if they manage to find ways to impliment it well i'd not mind having a no aggro system. Its a little odd but it would be interesting if it somehow had a DnD/Pathfinder system which rather then aggro it introduces risks, kind of providing Attacks of Opportunity which are free hits on an enemy given they try to pass by a player, promoting more strategic placement of players and allowing for close range fighter, tanky or just damage dealer to kind of block away enemies from attacking due to that threat. Still, not very likely I'd say since it involves programming AI in a smart manor and it might be to difficult to really put in play due to just how things might work, needing some sort of aggro system in place to really help to ensure the back squishies aren't focused anyways despite the risk.
  User Deleted
7/17/13 7:37:30 AM#25
Originally posted by Gholos

I have see some people here that dont want an aggro managment, trinity or a taunt skill in EQN, but no one of them have explain how an alternative system should works and allow a challenging PvE.

In my game expirience i have seen only 2 possible system:

1) CLASSIC SYSTEM (trinity with aggro managment) = that allow you to build up parties with classes that have a specific role and are all important for the group due their peculiar skills. A system that promote the collaboration and the coordination between players and need tatics in order to end a PvE  event.

2) GW2 SYSTEM = that dont need specific roles, where all the classes are supposed to do pratically the same things (healing self and do dps) and where every class can be replaced by another. You have only to think about your char. and to not being killed.

In my opinion with the GW2 system is nearly impossible to create PvE contet for more than 5 players party because there are no classes's roles...for more than 5 people party i intend real raids not the ridicolous world events of GW2 that are so simple that you can do it semi afk and in auto attack mode (you could do afk if the game have a decent targeting system).

So, if anyone know an alternative system for PvE, could explain how it can work?

Wouldn't Guild wars 1 count as a possible system?

Having a front/middle/back part setup, and having front line fighters/bunker builds phsyically block or intercept mobs from getting to their squishier team mates?

I guess the trinity is still loosely there, but it's a slight alternative to the traditional taunting mechanics/tank n' spank.

 

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4660

7/17/13 7:44:29 AM#26

I hope EQN comes up with a new system.

The old tank keeping aggro system is old and proven, but IMO its far too familiar and just "been there done that" since 1999. I don't find anything exciting in the old trinity setup, that would be playing it safe for EQN.

I also was not a big fan of GW2s combat which was even worse IMO (and a lot easier, my group did all the dungeon content in the first 2 weeks of launch with ease), the fact that we all hit max level that fast is another story, but I am not here to bash GW2.

I just want to see a new revolutionary system that is better than what we have on the market today.

 

 

 

  Chieftan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/05
Posts: 1416

7/17/13 8:06:30 AM#27
Definitely needed.

5 hours of ESO videos...and counting

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOxuLTBCUXiJYdTTHCv4xpbOWKZKaZ17-

  Gholos

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/13
Posts: 209

 
OP  7/17/13 8:18:10 AM#28
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Gholos

I have see some people here that dont want an aggro managment, trinity or a taunt skill in EQN, but no one of them have explain how an alternative system should works and allow a challenging PvE.

In my game expirience i have seen only 2 possible system:

1) CLASSIC SYSTEM (trinity with aggro managment) = that allow you to build up parties with classes that have a specific role and are all important for the group due their peculiar skills. A system that promote the collaboration and the coordination between players and need tatics in order to end a PvE  event.

2) GW2 SYSTEM = that dont need specific roles, where all the classes are supposed to do pratically the same things (healing self and do dps) and where every class can be replaced by another. You have only to think about your char. and to not being killed.

In my opinion with the GW2 system is nearly imposible to create PvE contet for more than 5 players party because there are no classes's roles...for more than 5 people party i intend real raids not the ridicolous world events of GW2 that are so simple that you can do it semi afk and in auto attack mode (you could do afk if the game have a decent targeting system).

So, if anyone know an alternative system for PvE, could explain how it can work?

 

I am one who did not offer an alternative with notes on how to create challenging PVE.

There are several reasons I did not and will not.  

For one though, I do not feel the root of why PVE is not challening in most games lies in the aggro mechanic.  I found GW2's PVE extremely easy as I found it in SWTOR, Rift, and WOW.  I could argue PVE is more challenging without the aggro mechanics you enjoy but I will not make the claim as I would imagine the argument will go circular fast.  I feel the root cause of why it is often so easy is predictable, patterned, non-varianced artificial intelligence.

To elaborate on why I cannot offer an alternative, Artificial Intelligence is a very complex topic which spans horizons far beyond my education and more importantly, the education of many game designers and developers.  The task of creating an artificially intelligent opponent that is at an appropriate challenge level across a spectrum of varied human skill levels, that can stay challenging -- is an old challenge and it is a monumental one.  It is for that reason we don't see it done often, if ever.

 

About aggro mechanic, i think that is the only one atm that allow challenging pvp cause if you have a tank with aggro control you can allow the other classes to do their jobs ad use their abilities,without a tank, a pure healer couldnt heal efficently cause he could be attacked by many mobs and being killed (the same for a pure dps that will not be ale to do dps on the boss) and if you introduce healers and dps that can survive alone you will have a GW2 system where collaboration between players is not very important. Obviously this is valid for tha tank too that have to rely on the healer to stay alive.

Furthermore if you dont have specific roles for the classes, boss fights cannot be very complex because you will not have classes suitable to their role, the tank will not enough resilent to resist to boss attacks and take aggro on him, the healer will not able to heals the tank efficently etc. so all will need to become simpler.

About the second part of your post, i think that it is  interesting, but we are talking about a game that will be released soon so we cannot pretend that it will introduce mobs with artificial intelligence so sofisticated to be similar to a human players, so for a challenging PvE we have to look at a system that works and that is tested in many MMORPG.


"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.

  Gholos

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/13
Posts: 209

 
OP  7/17/13 8:23:42 AM#29
Originally posted by Wolfenpride
Originally posted by Gholos

I have see some people here that dont want an aggro managment, trinity or a taunt skill in EQN, but no one of them have explain how an alternative system should works and allow a challenging PvE.

In my game expirience i have seen only 2 possible system:

1) CLASSIC SYSTEM (trinity with aggro managment) = that allow you to build up parties with classes that have a specific role and are all important for the group due their peculiar skills. A system that promote the collaboration and the coordination between players and need tatics in order to end a PvE  event.

2) GW2 SYSTEM = that dont need specific roles, where all the classes are supposed to do pratically the same things (healing self and do dps) and where every class can be replaced by another. You have only to think about your char. and to not being killed.

In my opinion with the GW2 system is nearly impossible to create PvE contet for more than 5 players party because there are no classes's roles...for more than 5 people party i intend real raids not the ridicolous world events of GW2 that are so simple that you can do it semi afk and in auto attack mode (you could do afk if the game have a decent targeting system).

So, if anyone know an alternative system for PvE, could explain how it can work?

Wouldn't Guild wars 1 count as a possible system?

Having a front/middle/back part setup, and having front line fighters/bunker builds phsyically block or intercept mobs from getting to their squishier team mates?

I guess the trinity is still loosely there, but it's a slight alternative to the traditional taunting mechanics/tank n' spank.

 

I dont know, i havent play GW1


"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 964

7/17/13 10:28:31 AM#30
Originally posted by Gholos

I have see some people here that dont want an aggro managment, trinity or a taunt skill in EQN, but no one of them have explain how an alternative system should works and allow a challenging PvE.

In my game expirience i have seen only 2 possible system:

1) CLASSIC SYSTEM (trinity with aggro managment) = that allow you to build up parties with classes that have a specific role and are all important for the group due their peculiar skills. A system that promote the collaboration and the coordination between players and need tatics in order to end a PvE  event.

2) GW2 SYSTEM = that dont need specific roles, where all the classes are supposed to do pratically the same things (healing self and do dps) and where every class can be replaced by another. You have only to think about your char. and to not being killed.

In my opinion with the GW2 system is nearly impossible to create PvE contet for more than 5 players party because there are no classes's roles...for more than 5 people party i intend real raids not the ridicolous world events of GW2 that are so simple that you can do it semi afk and in auto attack mode (you could do afk if the game have a decent targeting system).

So, if anyone know an alternative system for PvE, could explain how it can work?

Let me start by saying I like GW2's system, and I like trinity games, but I'm going to defend GW2 system against the nay sayers because I see a few glaring comments that pretty much prove that they didn't actually understand GW2's PVE system. (Probably through the fault of the game not spelling it out or hand holding players through the process, which is good imo, but with such a different and new system, it wasn't a good idea)

Here's the thing, the GW2 system is new, hasn't really been done before, and a lot of people didn't understand it.

There are still roles, and a lot of team coordination going on in GW2.  In fact, many people complained about the dungeons being "too hard", and most of the complaints were due to a lack of understanding of how GW2 handles roles and team coordination.

The biggest thing that I saw people not understanding was the Field/Finisher mechanic (There are 9 fields and 4 finisher, which makes 36 different combos) .  First thing with group coordination is that you can't activate more than one field at a time with a finisher.  If you drop a water field so that your group can get some heal finishers, and some guy in your group drops a darkness field on top of it.... those heals aren't coming.  Dropping the right fields at the right time, and using the right attacks in those fields at the right time play a huge part in PVE success.

Now GW2 doesn't have a "Tank" because you can't really manage agro.  You can help give your character a higher chance of being attacked, but between AOEs and other factors, others are going to take damage.  So the roles of the group come down to Support and DPS, but each class/build can "Support" in different ways.

My guardian for example is really good at providing lots of blast finishers, while other class's support roles might included dropping water fields and casting regens for the group.

Building a solid group takes a bit of work, and just like holy trinity games, you can't just throw any person in a group and expect to have an easy run at a dungeon.  Not coordinating who's going to drop what fields, who's going to be putting out might/protection, who's going to be doing what finishers, etc, is no different than going into a dungeon in EQ with only wizards and rogues.  It just has a different skin on it.

Also, the "You have to range a lot of encounters", is a statement that makes clear that the person wasn't taking advantage of different builds / team coordination in GW2.  I have done every single dungeon run in the game, and my team can blow through them extremely fast with no deaths, and my whole team is melee except for my wife, who is a ranger, but she often uses shortbow/axe/warhorn at close range to get +might and other buffs from finishers and to quickly drop a water field when the team needs heals.

Bottom line is GW2 system works great, for those who understand it.  It's action combat that doesn't allow "Safe" classes.  Everyone fights, pays attention to attacks, and works together.  There is nothing* wrong with holy trinity games.  I enjoy those too, but lets not knock every game that isn't a carbon copy of game mechanics from 15 years ago.

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  Sabas

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/26/05
Posts: 203

This is the sound of me

7/17/13 10:39:01 AM#31

If that means I can once again play a character who snares, roots and messes the mobs,

yes please. 

 

I don't think its needed to include GW2 into the discussion.

The lack of an aggro system or trinity isn't the reason GW2 didn't pan out as a lot of us hoped.

 

Well....maybe a little.

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 964

7/17/13 10:46:51 AM#32
Originally posted by Pandamin

If that means I can once again play a character who snares, roots and messes the mobs,

yes please. 

 

I don't think its needed to include GW2 into the discussion.

The lack of an aggro system or trinity isn't the reason GW2 didn't pan out as a lot of us hoped.

 

Well....maybe a little.

GW2 is one of the most successful MMORPGs to date and the dev team releases additional content (holiday themed and story expansion content) just about every month lol.

3 million copies sold?  Sold.  Not even F2P 3 million users.  3 million boxes sold at $59.99 to 39.99 a piece.  Not including cash shop sales either.

Any game company would be lucky to see those kinds of numbers

Or if you mean't "Didn't pan out" as in some people here didn't like it.  Ok cool.  Gotcha.  Different people like different things.

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  Sabas

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/26/05
Posts: 203

This is the sound of me

7/17/13 10:53:13 AM#33
Originally posted by Gallus85
 

Or if you mean't "Didn't pan out" as in some people here didn't like it.  Ok cool.  Gotcha.  Different people like different things.

That is what I meant. 

 

Easy Gallus, no need to champion GW2 with every breath you have. :)

I have great respect for Anet and I enjoyed GW2 a lot. Hell! its the only MMO in 2 years where I felt I didn't waste my money on buying it. You can look at my post history to see how I feel/felt about GW2.

Though I have no problems pointing out the areas where I feel they did wrong. FoTM is only 1 example where they lost me as a customer.

But this thread isn't the place to discuss that. 

  mbd1968

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/21/07
Posts: 1907

7/17/13 10:54:32 AM#34
Originally posted by Gholos
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Gholos i've seen a lot of your posts and I think we are on the same page man. I hated GW2 group combat.

So you are saying that because you didn't like one none trinity based combat mechanics there can't possibly be any other fun way to handle MMO combat without the trinity?

Think outside the box, can't you imagine other ways to handle group dynamics than GW2 and EQ/WoW?

I havent say that you cant imagine a different system than trinity in a MMORPG, i have say that is the only system that work well in my game experience.

For this reason i dont understand why i have to change a system that works, you can innovate it, giving more possible specs to classes, but not erase it.

We keep the tired old trinity then you start complaining of a lack of innovation in MMOs. Ditch the Trinity, it's dated and makes finding groups difficult as 80%+ of the population either wants to be a damage dealer or are sick of being blamed for wipes so refuse to be a tank/healer anymore.

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 964

7/17/13 11:02:41 AM#35
Originally posted by Pandamin
Originally posted by Gallus85
 

Or if you mean't "Didn't pan out" as in some people here didn't like it.  Ok cool.  Gotcha.  Different people like different things.

That is what I meant. 

 

Easy Gallus, no need to champion GW2 with every breath you have. :)

I have great respect for Anet and I enjoyed GW2 a lot. Hell! its the only MMO in 2 years where I felt I didn't waste my money on buying it. You can look at my post history to see how I feel/felt about GW2.

Though I have no problems pointing out the areas where I feel they did wrong. FoTM is only 1 example where they lost me as a customer.

But this thread isn't the place to discuss that. 

That was me being easy.

You don't want to see me go hard.

I only brought it up because people on these forums think everything that didn't get 10+ million users "Didn't pan out".  Which is retarded, to say the least.  But I put in that last part on my post because your wording could have been either way.  I didn't automatically assume you were in the tard camp.

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  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 964

7/17/13 11:05:14 AM#36
Originally posted by mbd1968
Originally posted by Gholos
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Gholos i've seen a lot of your posts and I think we are on the same page man. I hated GW2 group combat.

So you are saying that because you didn't like one none trinity based combat mechanics there can't possibly be any other fun way to handle MMO combat without the trinity?

Think outside the box, can't you imagine other ways to handle group dynamics than GW2 and EQ/WoW?

I havent say that you cant imagine a different system than trinity in a MMORPG, i have say that is the only system that work well in my game experience.

For this reason i dont understand why i have to change a system that works, you can innovate it, giving more possible specs to classes, but not erase it.

We keep the tired old trinity then you start complaining of a lack of innovation in MMOs. Ditch the Trinity, it's dated and makes finding groups difficult as 80%+ of the population either wants to be a damage dealer or are sick of being blamed for wipes so refuse to be a tank/healer anymore.

Exactly, complain about a lack of game innovation, then when a game comes out that does innovate like GW2, with a new combat system, it gets flack because you can hang in back pushing 1 2 3 4, standing still semi afk eating a bowl a cereal.

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  Sabas

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/26/05
Posts: 203

This is the sound of me

7/17/13 11:15:21 AM#37
Originally posted by Gallus85
 

That was me being easy.

You don't want to see me go hard.

Oh but we can tango if you want!....

 

Though in the spirit of good manners it would be better suited to take it into PM.

 

Thank you for not automatically putting me in the "tard" camp? 

Do me a favour and look up my post history, you would see I'm actually one of the few sensible people on the interwebs.

That includes avoiding words like tard.

I always try to use as few words as possible with enough nuance to convey my thoughts. 

 

And who knows maybe we get to dance in the not so distant future. :)

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 964

7/17/13 11:23:49 AM#38
Originally posted by Pandamin
Originally posted by Gallus85
 

That was me being easy.

You don't want to see me go hard.

Oh but we can tango if you want!....

 

Though in the spirit of good manners it would be better suited to take it into PM.

 

Thank you for not automatically putting me in the "tard" camp? 

Do me a favour and look up my post history, you would see I'm actually one of the few sensible people on the interwebs.

That includes avoiding words like tard.

I always try to use as few words as possible with enough nuance to convey my thoughts. 

 

And who knows maybe we get to dance in the not so distant future. :)

I don't know if you want to be my dancing queen.  There are few that could handle this.

If you want, you can start by addressing my post above about how people didn't understand group make ups, roles and field combos in GW2.  But as you said, you're not a GW2 hater, so you don't have to if you don't want to, bubba.

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  SethiusX

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 162

7/17/13 11:24:31 AM#39
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Gholos

I have see some people here that dont want an aggro managment, trinity or a taunt skill in EQN, but no one of them have explain how an alternative system should works and allow a challenging PvE.

In my game expirience i have seen only 2 possible system:

1) CLASSIC SYSTEM (trinity with aggro managment) = that allow you to build up parties with classes that have a specific role and are all important for the group due their peculiar skills. A system that promote the collaboration and the coordination between players and need tatics in order to end a PvE  event.

2) GW2 SYSTEM = that dont need specific roles, where all the classes are supposed to do pratically the same things (healing self and do dps) and where every class can be replaced by another. You have only to think about your char. and to not being killed.

In my opinion with the GW2 system is nearly impossible to create PvE contet for more than 5 players party because there are no classes's roles...for more than 5 people party i intend real raids not the ridicolous world events of GW2 that are so simple that you can do it semi afk and in auto attack mode (you could do afk if the game have a decent targeting system).

So, if anyone know an alternative system for PvE, could explain how it can work?

Let me start by saying I like GW2's system, and I like trinity games, but I'm going to defend GW2 system against the nay sayers because I see a few glaring comments that pretty much prove that they didn't actually understand GW2's PVE system. (Probably through the fault of the game not spelling it out or hand holding players through the process, which is good imo, but with such a different and new system, it wasn't a good idea)

Here's the thing, the GW2 system is new, hasn't really been done before, and a lot of people didn't understand it.

There are still roles, and a lot of team coordination going on in GW2.  In fact, many people complained about the dungeons being "too hard", and most of the complaints were due to a lack of understanding of how GW2 handles roles and team coordination.

The biggest thing that I saw people not understanding was the Field/Finisher mechanic (There are 9 fields and 4 finisher, which makes 36 different combos) .  First thing with group coordination is that you can't activate more than one field at a time with a finisher.  If you drop a water field so that your group can get some heal finishers, and some guy in your group drops a darkness field on top of it.... those heals aren't coming.  Dropping the right fields at the right time, and using the right attacks in those fields at the right time play a huge part in PVE success.

Now GW2 doesn't have a "Tank" because you can't really manage agro.  You can help give your character a higher chance of being attacked, but between AOEs and other factors, others are going to take damage.  So the roles of the group come down to Support and DPS, but each class/build can "Support" in different ways.

My guardian for example is really good at providing lots of blast finishers, while other class's support roles might included dropping water fields and casting regens for the group.

Building a solid group takes a bit of work, and just like holy trinity games, you can't just throw any person in a group and expect to have an easy run at a dungeon.  Not coordinating who's going to drop what fields, who's going to be putting out might/protection, who's going to be doing what finishers, etc, is no different than going into a dungeon in EQ with only wizards and rogues.  It just has a different skin on it.

Also, the "You have to range a lot of encounters", is a statement that makes clear that the person wasn't taking advantage of different builds / team coordination in GW2.  I have done every single dungeon run in the game, and my team can blow through them extremely fast with no deaths, and my whole team is melee except for my wife, who is a ranger, but she often uses shortbow/axe/warhorn at close range to get +might and other buffs from finishers and to quickly drop a water field when the team needs heals.

Bottom line is GW2 system works great, for those who understand it.  It's action combat that doesn't allow "Safe" classes.  Everyone fights, pays attention to attacks, and works together.  There is nothing* wrong with holy trinity games.  I enjoy those too, but lets not knock every game that isn't a carbon copy of game mechanics from 15 years ago.

Your point about combos being the replacement for the group interaction that normally takes place with the trinity setup is fair I think. And, in theory it should be reasonable. I didn't personally think it worked out that way.

One problem is that in most cases randomly just doing random stuff in the fields will create a pretty decent result, decent enough for most dungeon encounters. I've done most of the dungeons with a 4 player team (we have a small group of friends that played together and we didn't really like bringing others hence no fifth member), and we got through mostly everything without even thinking about combos, just letting them happen organically. 

The second problem is that, and this is personal, the combo effects were generally kinda boring in execution, so you didn't really notice them much and so it didn't really feel like you were working together to achieve anything. It felt like more of "Hey there is a random fire field, let me jump into it... did they mean to put it there, who knows?". Give me a big phoenix rising animation that instantly resses someone and has to be planned out when to use it, or a fire elemental spawning that buffs players in an instantly recognizable display that shows that, hey, we created that! I dunno, just something to make them more noticeable than... "he jumped into that field and we all gained a buff that we didn't really notice on us that lasted 12 seconds" effect.

It basically comes down to even an inexperienced group will have combos occur by chance, and not even notice them or know they created them. So when you do work to make a certain one happen, it still feels a little lackluster, and really downplays the group effort thing. Particularly given that otherwise, you don't need to interact with anyone really in combat.

This is all my experience and just my opinion, and I do realize that some of the more hardcore players have used combos to a far greater effect. 

  Redemp

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1055

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

7/17/13 11:26:25 AM#40

Holy Run-On sentence's Batman...

Voted yes,  this is Everquest.

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