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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Who wants camping back?

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448 posts found
  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2588

7/16/13 1:42:46 PM#121
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by BizkitNL
Originally posted by Rydeson
  Now as for your response that instancing takes off the population pressure of having hundreds if not thousands of characters in the same zone...... OMFGGGGGGGGGG What game are you playing that ever came close to that?  I have never seen Rift, TOR and GW2 end zones or any zone have hundreds to thousands of people IN that zone fighting.. And don't even dare to tell me it's because they are all busy instancing..

9 years ago (and before that), instancing was indeed a good way to let players enjoy content without lagging their socks off. I'm surprised it's hard to comprehend.....

Except thats not true... There was zero lag in noninstanced dungeons in DAoC.

You can't be serious.

I am totally serious. DAoC didn't start to lag until you got about 200 people on creen at once.

Instancing has never, EVER been about technical limitations. Especially not now. PS2 and Darkfall prove instancing is not needed for performance.


And Darkfall... please don't make me laugh. The performance of that game is abyssal as soon as you have more than 20 people on screen.

And you conveniently fail to mention Planetside.

 

Also, you must have never ever played Darkfall.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15639

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

7/16/13 1:47:46 PM#122
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by StonesDK
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by StonesDK
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Um. Whats stopping you from doing that now?

I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.

Nobody want to gimp their progress just to bring back old memories. I'm sure what's being discussed is a game where it's the best viable way to progress for everyone.

I wasn't gimping my progress.  I was actually doing it for better gear, which is what someone in this thread asked for.

We'll use WoW because it is one most people feel it is useless to mob camp on.  Xp was decent, not as good as quests but still good, coin was decent, and they were named boss mobs that have higher chances of a rare loot which is why I was camping them.

 

You are if doing quests is a faster way to progress regardless if you liked what you were doing better

 

To the OP: I'm not sure I could handle being stationary again but I sure do miss spending a lot of time in one dungeon running into other people not in my group

So unless I am doing the fastest most efficient method of leveling I am gimping my progress?

By definition, yes

Truly gimping yourself, would be rushing through the content that is there.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Cephus404

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

7/16/13 1:52:42 PM#123
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Fendel84M

EQ and FFXI are still there actually. You can camp all you want, for the record :-p.

Ah, the dumbest argument in the book...

No, the games as we knew and loved them have long ago been patched away.

They've been patched away because the majority of players didn't like them like that.  Why is that so hard for you people to understand?

Oh we understand it all right, we just do not like it and are still disappointed by the shortsightedness of the developers. I could make a personal attack here but I will leave that to you.

It wasn't shortsighted, catering to the majority of players is what allowed MMOs to go from a tiny niche genre to a massive mainstream one.  It made developers billions.  What they did was by no means wrong and if you feel you have to resort to personal insults, that means you've got nothing.

No surprise there.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

7/16/13 2:05:55 PM#124
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Jairoe03

I think this thread does a good job pointing out how MMO's focal point is in the social aspect of the game. The somewhat casualness of camping is something I somewhat miss, despite the disadvantages, it was still fun hanging out with people you enjoy socializing with and I think this is something that is terribly missed today.

But this is something you can still do today without camping.  You could always do it.  You don't have to have mandated down-time to talk to people you enjoy being around.  I fail to see why so many people think that this bad mechanic is the only way to get a favorable social result.

Aside from the few people that "camp" general chat most people want to be doing something while they socialize.  MMOs do a great job of this, too good a job.  Now the doing something involves just me, myself and I because I can progress just as easily without the hassle.  No one said it was the only way, just the only one so far to get results.

Yet back when I used to play, I could solo and chat at the same time and I often did.  Today, people can multitask in games and be social somewhere outside of the game, nobody ever considers that.

Many players are too focused on their own progress and generally won't do anything for the sake of actually doing it. Every second spent has to have some reward and I sadly think previous MMO's has trivialized the whole experience down to that.

Yet isn't that the choice of the individual?  If that's what other people want to do, what business is it of yours?  You can stop and shoot the breeze any time you want to, it's your choice.  You have no right to force your choices on anyone else.

Again, socializing within playing the game.  Sure, no one should force another to participate but the common gameplay mechanics actually discourage interaction.  This just doesn't make sense in an MMO setting.

No it doesn't.  The only reason anyone ever socialized before was because it was a niche genre that drew in a specific type of person and when people have something in common, they tend to talk about it.  That's not the case today, MMOs are mainstream and draw in many different kinds of people.  Most of the time, the people sitting next to you have nothing whatsoever in common, therefore they don't talk.  The only way to go back to the old way is to actively discriminate against the majority of people playing MMOs, which is a non-starter.

Now I don't mean to be grim but my favorite MMO's of all time to this day is still Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies because of how well you can casually play the game and socialize with others. Not many other MMO's since then allowed you to organize and build your own towns and cities or provide that degree of freedom within the environment.

You can casually play the game and socialize with anyone you want to in any game out there, what are you talking about?

He's talking about actually building a community with structures and player organization, not just hanging out at the auction house.

He can talk about anything he wants, there's still no evidence that  you'd get any better community with the kind of player base that we have in MMOs today.  That's the problem that you people don't seem to understand, these are not the old school MMOs, they have fundamentally changed, not because of the developers, but because they are mainstream and appeal to an entirely different audience.  You simply cannot put the genie back in the bottle and the sooner you people realize that, the better.  Deal with the reality of what is, not the fantasy of what you want to be.

Now its all about combat and combat mechanics and everything else is just lost or trivialized. What I believe separates great MMO's from the good ones today is which ones provides the best social tools and group activities IMO.

It just appears that too many MMO's are trying to cater to as many people as possible rather than trying to focus their game onto a target audience.

That's always been the way it's worked, sorry.  Businesses are in business to make money and they do that by appealing to the largest audience possible.  It's just that there is a larger audience available since MMOs went mainstream.

True, there are more players and if you consider the tenure of the online populace in general you can see why MMOs can suffer social wise.  Companies are in it to make money but they have tried by copying the MMO with the largest audiance possible, which itself lost 12% of it's paying base this year.  I have no seeing eye but I have a feeling that things are shifting.  Making money for an MMO means keeping people playing it.  When players feel more invested in an MMO they stay and the best way to accomplish that, minus good gameplay of course, is other people.

Sure, WoW eventually lost players after having more players for nearly 10 years than every other MMO on the planet combined.  The fact that development on any MMO that came out this year started 5 years ago when they were still an unstoppable force seems to be lost on you.  Things are not shifting, people are still going to be people and when WoW finally falls, there just will be no big dog, there will be hundreds of smaller MMOs.  You might get more variation then, but the overwhelming majority will still be making WoW-like games because they demonstrably work and make money.  Most developers don't care if their game folds after 6 months, they've already made back all of their money and a healthy profit and they're using it as seed money for their next project.  If the game lasts a year, that's a bonus, but it's not necessary, none of these developers are going hungry, they're making a boatload of money while the game is open and are working on the next one.  If they didn't like the profits, they'd stop making games, wouldn't they?

 

 

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/16/13 3:44:14 PM#125
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by KBishop

What, in your opinion, would be a good design for a rare spawn?

- Not always spawning at the same place, but rather a rare occurrence of a type of mob that can spawn anywhere in the world where such mobs are present.

- The mob wanders randomly, and not following a specific path, and also not restricted to a specific area.

- A "tracking" skill which would warn you when such a mob is near, and then allow you to track it and find it, a bit like archeology works in WoW.

- Unique abilities that makes it challenging and fun to fight.

Basically, a challenging and rare mob you find while you're playing outdoors, rather than a mob you camp waiting for it to magically appear at a predefined place. A mob you hunt instead of camping it.

Well, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't really know if that would address a ton of the issues.

Not always spawning in the same place is nice and all, but I can see how a lot of people would find this annoying if they are heavily camping it (imagine you are camping a mob every day and it spawns randomly. That can get very annoying quickly)

I think the wandering randomly is pretty cool, but again the same issues persist as the last point.

Of course, the tracking would realistically make those previous points a non-issue, so I could definitely get behind this concept and the previous two.

Unique abilities should be in every boss fight, so I'm in complete agreement.

The real question is more in terms of like; what should the spawn time be, what should the drops be like, what are the respawns rate be like etc.

Most of your ideas though are pretty good when added in all together

  Kaledren

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/11
Posts: 154

7/16/13 4:06:03 PM#126

I see no reason camping cannot work. Nothing saying it has to be the only means of advancement.

Could still have the soloability and fast paced features for those that crave it.......and just as easily have campable points throughout the world that perhaps have mobs that give better than average experience, various difficulties within the same camp point, and'/or rare spawns that could possibly spawn with their own varying timers so they aren't so predictable.

 

And please don't try to bring the argument of "Well if players can do things faster and easier, no one will do the camps because it would hinder their progression". There are players who enjoy a bit of a slow down and prefer to not always be in the rat race to get to cap to grind end game for gear that has no purpose beyond waiting for it to be obsolete the next expansion or simply to be "look at me" pieces.

Believe it or not...some people enjoy camping. And believe it or not...if you don't like camping, that is fine, just don't do it and do what you enjoy instead. Simple solution isn't it.

 

Don't deny others options they find enjoyable just because you don't enjoy them. And dev's CAN have multiple options like this that are viable and pull in other crowds ...in the same game. They just need to grow a pair and do it and stop being lazy and making the same game over and over with different titles to turn a quick buck off of the lemmings (Meaning game jumpers that lunge for the newest title on the market with little research or thought...then complain about it). There are many I see on this site and others clamoring for such things...so not like it wouldn't be used.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

7/16/13 4:37:21 PM#127
Originally posted by Kaledren

 

Don't deny others options they find enjoyable just because you don't enjoy them.

Sure. You can camp in WOW now. No one is stopping you. The option is there.

  Chieftan

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/16/05
Posts: 1420

 
OP  7/16/13 4:39:10 PM#128
Originally posted by Kaledren

I see no reason camping cannot work. Nothing saying it has to be the only means of advancement.

Could still have the soloability and fast paced features for those that crave it.......and just as easily have campable points throughout the world that perhaps have mobs that give better than average experience, various difficulties within the same camp point, and'/or rare spawns that could possibly spawn with their own varying timers so they aren't so predictable.

 

And please don't try to bring the argument of "Well if players can do things faster and easier, no one will do the camps because it would hinder their progression". There are players who enjoy a bit of a slow down and prefer to not always be in the rat race to get to cap to grind end game for gear that has no purpose beyond waiting for it to be obsolete the next expansion or simply to be "look at me" pieces.

Believe it or not...some people enjoy camping. And believe it or not...if you don't like camping, that is fine, just don't do it and do what you enjoy instead. Simple solution isn't it.

 

Don't deny others options they find enjoyable just because you don't enjoy them. And dev's CAN have multiple options like this that are viable and pull in other crowds ...in the same game. They just need to grow a pair and do it and stop being lazy and making the same game over and over with different titles to turn a quick buck off of the lemmings (Meaning game jumpers that lunge for the newest title on the market with little research or thought...then complain about it). There are many I see on this site and others clamoring for such things...so not like it wouldn't be used.

5 stars for your post.  Couldn't have said better myself.  Camping would be a nice OPTION, I never once said it should be the ONLY way to progress in a MMO. 

5 hours of ESO videos...and counting

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOxuLTBCUXiJYdTTHCv4xpbOWKZKaZ17-

  Kiyoris

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/13
Posts: 356

7/16/13 4:59:54 PM#129

Spawn camping is multibox paradise.

Nice idea, but many flaws.

  Kaledren

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/11
Posts: 154

7/16/13 5:04:07 PM#130
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kaledren

 

Don't deny others options they find enjoyable just because you don't enjoy them.

Sure. You can camp in WOW now. No one is stopping you. The option is there.

True. But the difference is...

 

1. I Played WoW 4 years ago and won't go back...as it's even more solo friendly then it was before.

2. Due to the solo friendliness...I wouldn't call it camping when you can pull an entire camp in WoW and massacre them in most cases without dying.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/16/13 5:33:20 PM#131

The Endless Mob Grind was the absolute worst part of early MMORPGs.  I didn't play EQ1 specifically, but in the ~10 other MMORPGs I did play it was some of the most rudimentary and dull gameplay I'd ever experienced in gaming.

  versulas

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 284

7/16/13 5:38:31 PM#132

I like how back when we cleared camps pulling was an art. The designated "puller" trained the mobs and never actually stayed to kill them, but ran back to pull more, feign deathing if the rest of us weren't ready yet.

It also allowed us to talk and shoot the shit while waiting for the next batch. Now though, with voice chat being so prevalent, that benefit is no longer really a factor.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3380

7/16/13 6:01:28 PM#133
Originally posted by versulas

I like how back when we cleared camps pulling was an art. The designated "puller" trained the mobs and never actually stayed to kill them, but ran back to pull more, feign deathing if the rest of us weren't ready yet.

It also allowed us to talk and shoot the shit while waiting for the next batch. Now though, with voice chat being so prevalent, that benefit is no longer really a factor.

     No kidding.. Camps were fun and always exciting, especially when an ADD pops or a wondering mob jump in..   There were times I was healing and down to 20% mana, Then an ADD pops and the puller already tagged one.  If we had CC, we were OK, but sometimes we just had the puller kite the mob around until we take care of the ADD..  I loved it when you're in a zone with multiple camp locations and a BOSS spawns..  Immediately someone yells it out and we all leave our camps to join up in raid form and go after the boss... It's impossible to do that if all the groups are in their own private instances..  From where I sit, the past benefits that came from instancing wasn't worth the trade off.. 

     Instancing + Quest hubs = good bye social community..

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/16/13 6:51:25 PM#134
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by versulas

I like how back when we cleared camps pulling was an art. The designated "puller" trained the mobs and never actually stayed to kill them, but ran back to pull more, feign deathing if the rest of us weren't ready yet.

It also allowed us to talk and shoot the shit while waiting for the next batch. Now though, with voice chat being so prevalent, that benefit is no longer really a factor.

     No kidding.. Camps were fun and always exciting, especially when an ADD pops or a wondering mob jump in..   There were times I was healing and down to 20% mana, Then an ADD pops and the puller already tagged one.  If we had CC, we were OK, but sometimes we just had the puller kite the mob around until we take care of the ADD..  I loved it when you're in a zone with multiple camp locations and a BOSS spawns..  Immediately someone yells it out and we all leave our camps to join up in raid form and go after the boss... It's impossible to do that if all the groups are in their own private instances..  From where I sit, the past benefits that came from instancing wasn't worth the trade off.. 

     Instancing + Quest hubs = good bye social community..

I really question the validity of people who claim that a boss popping in the middle of their leveling or whatever to be any sort of fun. Its almost always JUST an inconvenience.

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2213

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

7/16/13 6:54:18 PM#135
Originally posted by Chieftan

I thought about the mechanics of spawn camping vs dungeoning on my feet for the past oh, about 10 years now, I'm kinda ready to just chill at a camp again.

 

Think about it: you go to an area, group up, pick a campsite and just chill there pulling mobs to your spot. 

 

Maybe change things up a little from the early days of EQ such as:

 

1) Kill X mobs in X amount of time quests or "scalp" style turn-in quests

2)Random boss/named spawns

3)Random multi-mob spawns...think you've got the spawn broken?  Put in a random chance for 4 mobs to spawn where 1 normally does.

4)Remember the cool places you used to camp in EQ?  It could be a kitchen, a throne room, a campfire, etc.  Developers could really liven it up with some visually interesting camp spots.

5)"Hold the line" camps where you rain fire on a sea of orcs trying to cross the moat

Honestly none of this would require a massive re-coding of any current MMO.  Pump up the spawns in a given area and let people have at it.  Unlike the days of EQ you could still have the normal quest-quest-quest for exp path of current MMOs; this would just give players another alternate way of gaining levels.

Do you remember not being able to get your epic because your mob was camped 24/7 by guilds on  rotation with a calender set up?

Fix that and I might be on board.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

7/16/13 6:54:56 PM#136
Originally posted by Kaledren
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kaledren

 

Don't deny others options they find enjoyable just because you don't enjoy them.

Sure. You can camp in WOW now. No one is stopping you. The option is there.

True. But the difference is...

 

1. I Played WoW 4 years ago and won't go back...as it's even more solo friendly then it was before.

2. Due to the solo friendliness...I wouldn't call it camping when you can pull an entire camp in WoW and massacre them in most cases without dying.

1) Then go to another MMO that has spawns. There is nothing preventing you to sit around, and just kill.

2) uh? That is the definitely of camping. And i doubt you can do what you claim. I would love to see that. WOW is designed to have small number of pull. I doubt (unless you are a pally), you can pull 10 mobs and survive.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/16/13 6:57:33 PM#137
Originally posted by nariusseldon

2) uh? That is the definitely of camping. And i doubt you can do what you claim. I would love to see that. WOW is designed to have small number of pull. I doubt (unless you are a pally), you can pull 10 mobs and survive.

you actually physically cant pull an entire zone. At a certain distance mobs automatically reset.

  twrule

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 1260

7/16/13 6:59:36 PM#138

After reading this thread, I'm starting to think people who like exploration and a sense of adventure in their games like me are a rare or dying breed.

A developer handcrafts an entire huge virtual world for us, where no matter where you go, there will be new things to see and find...and people want to sit tucked away in 1 little corner (maybe a specific 4-5 corners through the entire leveling process as the case may be - always the same 4-5 because the community has designated those the most efficient xp camps).

'Hunting' named mobs is one thing, if done in a certain way that actually makes it a 'hunt', not a 'camp' - but as a major or the main source of xp by design?

This one of the things that irked me about FFXI, which is a game I otherwise appreciated. Never before had I played a game where the entire world was actually hand-crafted, detail by detail, rather than a generic plane with randomly generated features. There was real exploration to be had and guaranteed interesting things to discover (and a world of one of my favorite franchises no less). But through my entire 2-3 year career in that game, I got to see maybe a quarter of the entire game world, because I was basically forced to either go to the same few camps to xp, or wait in town for hours to get a group to go to said camps. I tried my best to explore solo, but there were limits to what I could do, and it was frustrating to say the least.

No, I do not want camping back. Camps should be temporary stopping points or resting places in the midst of a greater journey - not a place adventurers intentionally go straight to from town to shoot the breeze for 8 hours before heading back again (the latter is more like modern real world 'camping', not done by adventurers in a fantasy world...).

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2213

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

7/16/13 7:01:55 PM#139
Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by versulas

I like how back when we cleared camps pulling was an art. The designated "puller" trained the mobs and never actually stayed to kill them, but ran back to pull more, feign deathing if the rest of us weren't ready yet.

It also allowed us to talk and shoot the shit while waiting for the next batch. Now though, with voice chat being so prevalent, that benefit is no longer really a factor.

     No kidding.. Camps were fun and always exciting, especially when an ADD pops or a wondering mob jump in..   There were times I was healing and down to 20% mana, Then an ADD pops and the puller already tagged one.  If we had CC, we were OK, but sometimes we just had the puller kite the mob around until we take care of the ADD..  I loved it when you're in a zone with multiple camp locations and a BOSS spawns..  Immediately someone yells it out and we all leave our camps to join up in raid form and go after the boss... It's impossible to do that if all the groups are in their own private instances..  From where I sit, the past benefits that came from instancing wasn't worth the trade off.. 

     Instancing + Quest hubs = good bye social community..

I really question the validity of people who claim that a boss popping in the middle of their leveling or whatever to be any sort of fun. Its almost always JUST an inconvenience.

In EQ, because CC was as necessary a component as the rest of the trinity, I concur that Boss's popping or wandering mobs was in fact part of the fun. 

I personally question the validity of anyone who says that in EQ people became 'inconvenienced' when the boss finally popped in the room they were camping. Mostly because if they were camping a boss room, the whole point was to be there for the pop.

 If they were leveling - they wouldn't have been in LGuk in the first place - they would have been in the Overthere or something. If you camp a room in EQ the entire point was to be there when the boss spawned - and juggling the adds was as much a part of the  fun as healing, keeping aggro or having high dps while avoiding aggro. 

 

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2213

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

7/16/13 7:03:45 PM#140
Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by nariusseldon

2) uh? That is the definitely of camping. And i doubt you can do what you claim. I would love to see that. WOW is designed to have small number of pull. I doubt (unless you are a pally), you can pull 10 mobs and survive.

you actually physically cant pull an entire zone. At a certain distance mobs automatically reset.

You didn't play EQ from 99 to 2004 - can't speak for today - but Mobs did not reset unless you zoned.

edit: my bad you were talking about wow.

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