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General Discussion  » PVP only games are guaranteed to fail

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60 posts found
  Romanjisan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/29/06
Posts: 52

 
OP  7/14/13 11:42:28 AM#1

Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

  zonjimasen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/24/12
Posts: 27

7/14/13 12:53:11 PM#2
Originally posted by Romanjisan

 

If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

I was taking you seriously right until this part. I smell trollbait.

  Torcip

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 631

7/14/13 12:59:58 PM#3
League of legends, the most played game of all time, is PvP, 99% of the gaming population would say it is PvP. You are a player fighting other players. Your argument of it being PvE because of it being co-op means nothing what so ever as every MMO that ever had PvP did not make it a solo affair only.  The most played MMO of all time, WoW, had a very heavy PvP element with it's open world pvp faction system.  People like PvP, people hate games that suck like  the previous Warhammer online.
  General-Zod

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 571

Kneel.

7/14/13 1:01:12 PM#4

I agree....

I hate losing, why would they even try to make a game that challenges you? Its not a smart business model... PvE is the best way to go because people like winning (its a little known fact guys).

For example, my church is really popular because everybody gets to go to Heaven no matter how much we lie, cheat and steal. Now I understand that there are some churches that would say it wrong to do these things but I would never attend these churches and certainly not put anything in the offering plate. Who would start a church like that when you could just start a church where nobody has to change and everybody gets their blessings??? Wouldnt that be that be the most profitable and obtain the most members???

LoL is the most popular game in the world and the reason why is the Player vs A.I mode. Who would want to fight another player thats going to pick an over-powered champ and harass and cheat you out of experience and CS? The A.I in League of leagends are SO FUN and they let you obtain all the CS you want. They shouldnt even have e-sports, they should put these so-called best players in the world against A.I opponents... that would be a great thing to watch.

/sarcasm

  ste2000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4735

7/14/13 1:09:37 PM#5

I agree with the OP.

I beleve PvP is popular in a Multiplayer environment, that's its natural habitat.

I am not saying that people hate playing PvP in MMORPGs, that's not true, but I believe most of us can live without as long as there is an engaging PVE content.

Personally I don't mind playing a game with PvP after all I played Darkfall for 2 years, but I prefer PvE content in MMOs.

I miss Everquest, it didn't have any PvP and it did quite well.................

  PsychoticHamster

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/01/12
Posts: 98

7/14/13 1:11:24 PM#6
What about Darkfall? The original came out in 2009 I think with subs, it kept going and the devs even revamped it and released DFUW earlier this year. No perfect game by far, but its a PvP only(excluding crafting) that has stayed with their original model, and if I had to guess will continue to do so. There's also Mortal Online, which has been around a while and has kept its sub price. What people consider failure in the MMO genre is warped. They look at WoW and assume that subs in the millions is success, when in reality an MMO is doing really well if it can retain 100,000+ recurring subs. And I say recurring because SWTOR had a few million subs at launch, but they very quickly lost a majority of their playerbase. For MMO devs, it better to create a game for a niche market that you know will stay and play your game, than trying to do it all and go after multiple playerbases that spreads resources to create a good game thin.

  xalvi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 343

7/14/13 1:13:46 PM#7

LOL sad man.

Warhammer did not die because is was a pvp oriented game, get your facts straight plz. Can someone remind the OP how many servers warhammer had when it first launched. What killed warhammer were many reasons, including WoW, but saying it died because it was pvp oriented is simply wrong and troll-like behavior. QQ

  Zulmaluka

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 17

7/14/13 1:22:14 PM#8
actually i dunno what ur talking about, war was immense fun for me and my friends, pvp was awesome, both open world and indoors, cant complain about that game execpt for buggy graphics ( people used to invest a lot of money for pc and still had lag spikes caused by really bad optimizations). Used to play it for a long time , and then after for few months in seperate bits, was fun times and memories in my opinion.
  OniFeeZ

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/13
Posts: 48

7/14/13 8:09:20 PM#9

To my knowledge, Dark Age of Camelot is mainly PVP (or as they prefer to call it; RvR) and that's still immensely popular. Also, define for me what you mean as 'popular'.

 

A game does not need to attract WoW numbers to be 'popular' or even 'profitable'. All it needs is a steady playerbase and enough cash income to exceed their expenses to be 'profitable.' It certainly doesn't hurt that this is Warhammer 40k, which has been a lot more popular for Games Workshop than fantasy for a long time.

And this game isn't PvP only anyway, there is dungeon type content planned. It's focus is on PvP true, but what else would you expect from the 40k license?

  Sive0n

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/05
Posts: 28

7/14/13 8:19:27 PM#10
Originally posted by Romanjisan

Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

 I honestly don't know how to say this without being too harsh, but you're making huge assumptions based on your lack of experience(because you clearly dislike PvP), faulty reasoning or both.

 First you are assuming that people only buy things if they are winners. Players buy things for several reasons and most of them have nothing to do with winner or losing(with the exception being the p2win games):

  • they make them look better. (aesthetics)
  • gives them access to content. (subscriptions and downloadable content)
  • gives them an edge versus their opponent. (P2W games)
  • saves them time. (boosters)
 Second you assume that just because its PvE you are going to win. If the content is that easy then that will put off most of players because there is no challenge, who will not only not waste money they'll just quit the game entirely.
 
 Third you assume that there are more losers than winners. There cant be winner without losers, ergo its a theoretical 50-50 split. For every new player that starts playing a loser becomes a winner and for every loser that quits the game a winner becomes a loser.
 
 Fourth you assume people don't like to PvP because its "unrelaxing entertainment". Humans are competitive by nature, that's what we did when we need to scavenge/hunt for food in the old days and that is what happens now a days in every part of your life from being graded at school to watching/playing sports. Competition is what PvP is all about and while in general most PvE players like to PvP the reverse isn't always true. Even in PvE content in MMOs there is a good amount of competition, like who's the best [insert your role here].

 To sum it up it just seems like YOU don't like to PvP because you keep loosing. That doesn't necessarily mean that you are bad at playing, but rather that you are not playing at your own level. You cant expect to play versus better players and not lose most of the times.

 

 PS: Why you give LoL as an example when you were clearly talking about MMOs in beyond me. LoL is a multiplayer game with a game/room lobby not a MMO, and to say it is PvE oriented is ridiculous because people who play versus bots are a minority and you still end up being ranked by the system making it a little competitive.

  gekido

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/04/04
Posts: 59

7/14/13 8:20:33 PM#11

Have to love those open ended statements like "PVP is not popular"

I knew I shouldn't have read this stupid thread.

  Saxx0n

PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd.

Joined: 10/15/10
Posts: 830

7/14/13 9:13:47 PM#12

whine much?

 

-edited for font size

  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 638

7/14/13 9:24:21 PM#13
Originally posted by Saxx0n

whine much?

 

-edited for font size

Yep, bit much for me too.  This IP (Warhammer 40k) is an obvious match for a PvP game it would stun me if someone tried to make a PvE game using this IP.  PvP does have a following and games made for a PvP audience are not guaranteed to fail.

I say this as a dedicated care bear who would never play a PvP game.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10920

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/14/13 10:19:21 PM#14

I can't even come up with a decent response. Nearly nothing in the OP is true. Either the OP is misinformed, or they have executed some excellent sarcastic satire.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Darkcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 786

7/14/13 10:26:33 PM#15
Originally posted by ste2000

I agree with the OP.

I beleve PvP is popular in a Multiplayer environment, that's its natural habitat.

I am not saying that people hate playing PvP in MMORPGs, that's not true, but I believe most of us can live without as long as there is an engaging PVE content.

Personally I don't mind playing a game with PvP after all I played Darkfall for 2 years, but I prefer PvE content in MMOs.

I miss Everquest, it didn't have any PvP and it did quite well.................

Speak for your self, just because some players are scared of ;losing pixels and get attached to them doesn't  mean we all do, PVE, AI , is lame  in 99% of most games.. No challenge...

  Darkcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 786

7/14/13 10:28:29 PM#16
Originally posted by Romanjisan

Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

ROFL PVP is not popular I hope your trolling  , what a joke, UO, EVE, Darkfall, MO, Xsyon, all still Online, Asheron call has been online since he late l90's and  and guess what server is the most popular you got it, THE PVP one!!

  Darkcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 786

7/14/13 10:30:34 PM#17
Originally posted by xalvi

LOL sad man.

Warhammer did not die because is was a pvp oriented game, get your facts straight plz. Can someone remind the OP how many servers warhammer had when it first launched. What killed warhammer were many reasons, including WoW, but saying it died because it was pvp oriented is simply wrong and troll-like behavior. QQ

The PVP was the only good thing about it........

  Serelisk

Novice Member

Joined: 8/02/11
Posts: 845

7/14/13 10:31:13 PM#18
If it means anything, I have at least 10 friends who have mentioned occasionally getting on LoL to fight the AI...  So it's entirely possible I think? That a surprisingly large percentage of the players are casual users who fight the AI every so often. Idk, this is based on partial ignorance, just my personal anecdote :o
  Serelisk

Novice Member

Joined: 8/02/11
Posts: 845

7/14/13 10:36:01 PM#19
Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Originally posted by Romanjisan

Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

ROFL PVP is not popular I hope your trolling  , what a joke, UO, EVE, Darkfall, MO, Xsyon, all still Online, Asheron call has been online since he late l90's and  and guess what server is the most popular you got it, THE PVP one!!

EVE is the only game in that list I believe that has a healthy sized player base by today's standards. Relative to other themepark/PvE oriented MMO's, the games that focus strictly on PvP tend to be extremely niche (save LoL). This doesn't mean that these games are failures like the OP is claiming, but if they're after a niche audience, it's inherently a relatively unpopular format.

  sado2020

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 112

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is my PVP

7/14/13 10:39:18 PM#20

If anything, to me anyways and what others have said, the PVP in WAR was the best part of the game and it was pretty much everything else that drove me away.

 

I know PVP isn't popular among many, I don't blame them for my PVE minded friends they use games like MMOs to escape any sort of stress, a lot don't even raid in games.  Even for myself with ever more being put on my plate I find myself wary of Open World PVP. 

But to many that thrill of danger does make the game.  And as some said in other threads that sort of danger makes dull tasks, like mat gathering or daily quests, more exciting to them.  Some of my fondest WoW moments was gathering leather and being set upon and having the tables turned on my would be attackers or jumping into a battle ground and turning a losing game into a solid victory. 

 

I would usually agree with someone when they say PVP isn't as popular as PVE in mmos but I would argue that the gap in the margins isn't as wide as some believe

Playing: TSW, D&D NW, Defiance (more the tv show than game >.> ) LotRO, DCUO

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