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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » POLL: should all races be allowed to play every classes?

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140 posts found
  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3728

RIP City of Heroes!

7/13/13 3:05:21 PM#41
Originally posted by Yamota
No, unless a gnome warrior get heavy penalties to damage compared to a troll warrior but the opposite for dexterity.

But someone who wants every race to be every class doesn't want any penalties.  They want it all now.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2887

7/13/13 3:06:22 PM#42
Originally posted by waynejr2

Opening everything up to everyone because the customer should get whatever he wants is part of what is wrong with games these days. It's the spoiled little brats who kick and scream until they get their way.  It's entitlement.

No, I want the devs to show them who the boss is and not cave into their demands.  Because if the devs cave in on one thing, they will cave in over and over again.  It teaches the children they can be rewarded with their tactics.

-reveals his inquisitorial seal- I find your lack of faith in His Majesty's subjects disturbing. You are hereby place under inquisitorial custody until such a time as I find your person devoid of taint or the touch of the Warp.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Dihoru
Yes, to be more readily empathized with they should have some human traits (jealousy, greed, avarice, kindness, caring, etc), all fantasy fiction does this unless it is the sub standard type which wants to dehumanize its villains.


For you perhaps.

 

I know of lots good fantasy worlds where villains have no redeeming humanistic qualities whatsoever that are not sub-standard. I also know of many that have your coveted gray areas. I enjoy both. I guess I like "sub standard" fantasy :)

Sometimes, especially in an entertainment area, it is nice to not have to worry about gray areas. It is relaxing to have clear cut lines drawn and adhered to. Sometimes, people actually yearn for clear cut black and white.

I understand you like gray areas. I do too, in some games. Do you understand not everyone does? EQ was not about gray areas. It was about clear cut definitions, Humans being the exception. Will EQN be this? Who knows...

Name an example of good fantasy where the villain did not have human characteristics? (Sauron was prideful, that led to his downfall both in the past and in the LotR books present timeline).

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12095

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

7/13/13 3:11:11 PM#43
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by Yamota
No, unless a gnome warrior get heavy penalties to damage compared to a troll warrior but the opposite for dexterity.

But someone who wants every race to be every class doesn't want any penalties.  They want it all now.

"They want it all now"

C'mon, wayne, you're better than that. Playing the instant gratification card. Shame on you, man. ;)

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3028

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/13/13 3:11:30 PM#44


Originally posted by Antiquated

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
For you perhaps.

I know of lots good fantasy worlds where villains have no redeeming humanistic qualities whatsoever that are not sub-standard. I also know of many that have your coveted gray areas. I enjoy both. I guess I like "sub standard" fantasy :)



Cruella de Vil?

I can't think of any non-Disney villains who are quite so cardboard, right offhand. Elucidate?



LOL Good ol' Cruella :)

Sauron, the Orcs, and Trolls from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.
The Enemy and The Valheru from Feist's Midkemia series of books.
Lord Meron and Kylara from McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern books.
The Piper, Amalgamated Mining, and the Kleevi from McCaffrey's Acorna the Unicorn Girl books.
Queen Achren, Arawn - Death Lord, and The Horned King in Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain books.
Voldemort in Rowlings Harry Potter books.

Shall I continue?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3028

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/13/13 3:17:05 PM#45


Originally posted by Dihoru
Name an example of good fantasy where the villain did not have human characteristics? (Sauron was prideful, that led to his downfall both in the past and in the LotR books present timeline).

Melkor/Morgath in Tolkein's Middle Earth.
"Melkor was the most powerful of the Ainur, but turned to darkness and became Morgoth, the definitive antagonist of Arda from whom all evil in the world of Middle-earth ultimately stems. Sauron, one of the Maiar of Aulë, betrayed his kind and became Morgoth's principal lieutenant."

[EDIT]
Nevermind. This has gotten so far off topic and Good vs Evil is, in itelsf, human characteristics.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

7/13/13 3:20:31 PM#46
Originally posted by Dihoru

Name an example of good fantasy where the villain did not have human characteristics? (Sauron was prideful, that led to his downfall both in the past and in the LotR books present timeline).

The Joker (who despite being a fairly interesting character, is not terribly deep motivationally).

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2887

7/13/13 3:21:00 PM#47
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Antiquated

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
For you perhaps.

 

I know of lots good fantasy worlds where villains have no redeeming humanistic qualities whatsoever that are not sub-standard. I also know of many that have your coveted gray areas. I enjoy both. I guess I like "sub standard" fantasy :)



Cruella de Vil?

 

I can't think of any non-Disney villains who are quite so cardboard, right offhand. Elucidate?



LOL Good ol' Cruella :)

 

Sauron, the Orcs, and Trolls from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.
The Enemy and The Valheru from Feist's Midkemia series of books.
Lord Meron and Kylara from McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern books.
The Piper, Amalgamated Mining, and the Kleevi from McCaffrey's Acorna the Unicorn Girl books.
Queen Achren, Arawn - Death Lord, and The Horned King in Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain books.
Voldemort in Rowlings Harry Potter books.

Shall I continue?

LOL... voldemort lacking human characteristics... dude... you need to learn how to analyse books better... Voldemort is the textbook example of a non-powerless smeagol, he is the individual who thirsted for power and who's thirst only grew from (if I remember correctly) the abuse of the people who raised him as a child... not to mention being shun by his own father.

Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Dihoru

Name an example of good fantasy where the villain did not have human characteristics? (Sauron was prideful, that led to his downfall both in the past and in the LotR books present timeline).

The Joker (who despite being a fairly interesting character, is not terribly deep motivationally).

1. Depending on which timeline you take (the comic books or the recent Heath Ledger movie) he is either:

a) a former criminal driven insane by chemical exposure (which while not easy to understand still is human, who wouldn't lose their marbles after being dunked completely in corrosive chemicals).

b) driven insane by his sociopath father's abuse ( "lets put a smile on that face", remember that quote?).

In either of those cases you're still dealing with a human which while warped and evil is still understandable. You need to give me an example of something which can only be hated and not understood at all.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

7/13/13 3:22:27 PM#48
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Sauron

Never read the Silmarillion?

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

7/13/13 3:29:00 PM#49
Originally posted by Dihoru
You need to give me an example of something which can only be hated and not understood at all.

Well, I'm not really into theology...urp, even Satan has a partially sympathetic side, don't he?

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2887

7/13/13 3:32:31 PM#50
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Dihoru
You need to give me an example of something which can only be hated and not understood at all.

Well, I'm not really into theology...urp, even Satan has a partially sympathetic side, don't he?

Which son does not want to surpass his father? Think in the Bible (or some versions of it) it is called the sin of Pride and Satan's actual name is Lucifer, first of the Archangels (now that you point it out I kinda see what game's workshop did with Horus's betrayal of the God-Emperor in the Warhammer 40.000 mythos).

  Dullahan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 744

Death to Themepark.

7/13/13 3:33:10 PM#51

I voted no because it defies logic and lore.  

I do think it would be cool for certain races to gain both racial faction and alignment with other class guilds thru quests and so forth to eventually be able to become say a necro if they were a high elf.  I think the process should be grueling though, and not something you could choose at character creation.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
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Intrigued by Star Citizen and Archeage.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  Gallus85

Elite Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1080

7/13/13 3:40:27 PM#52
Originally posted by waynejr2

Opening everything up to everyone because the customer should get whatever he wants is part of what is wrong with games these days. It's the spoiled little brats who kick and scream until they get their way.  It's entitlement.

No, I want the devs to show them who the boss is and not cave into their demands.  Because if the devs cave in on one thing, they will cave in over and over again.  It teaches the children they can be rewarded with their tactics.

How does more freedom on class / race combinations have anything to do with entitlement?

You could easily reverse this statement back around on you.  "People who think classes should not have any race restrictions are just being brats trying to take what they like about other games and force their preferences on other people.  The devs should not cave to these people who think their entitled to getting what they want".

See how that works?

This rant to me sounds more like you enjoy talking about "entitlement" even in subjects that have nothing to do with it.  We're not talking about loot hand outs and free houses.  We're talking about character customization.  Get a grip.

Also, I think more freedom is better, but EQ and EQ2 had class/race restrictions.  I expect them to be following suite with this game, and I don't think either choice is detrimental to the enjoyment of the game.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2355

World > Quest Progression

7/13/13 3:41:08 PM#53
Anyone who likes LotR should read the Silmarillion, it's great :)

Is this the time to pop in and say that the usual lore of EQ may be skewed from the original due to the Discord's involvement in the timeline? People were freaking out that Firiona was a Ranger type, it was the most abrupt example that though familiar EQN will be different.
  User Deleted
7/13/13 3:42:27 PM#54
It will be EverQuest NEXT, voted for yes.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2355

World > Quest Progression

7/13/13 3:43:59 PM#55
EQ2 does have creation restrictions but if you roll a Troll SK and level high enough to betray you can be a Paladin. I hope for the same system in EQN except more indepth and tied to deities.
  Gallus85

Elite Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1080

7/13/13 3:50:16 PM#56
Originally posted by Dullahan

I voted no because it defies logic and lore.  

I do think it would be cool for certain races to gain both racial faction and alignment with other class guilds thru quests and so forth to eventually be able to become say a necro if they were a high elf.  I think the process should be grueling though, and not something you could choose at character creation.

How does it defy lore?  Like an Ogre using magic?  Gee where have I seen that before? (Shadowknights)

EQ already allows for really strange class/race combinations.  Gnome Warrior anyone?

I think any race should be able to be any class, but there must be tangible pros and cons to go with it.  Maybe an Ogre Necro isn't that smart, so his magic is weaker, but is physically more powerful (resistance to knock downs, more HPs, etc).

It would fit the lore and help make players stand out.

Also, if you're just speaking of good/evil, the lore is filled with "Fallen goodguys" and "Repenting badguys".  You could roleplay a Darkelf that has turned his back on Inny and has chosen to protect the world as a druid or a ranger of Tunare.

Or a disgruntled High Elf that was mad that the wasn't given enough respect by his peers so he turned to necromancy.

The possibilities are limitless, in both a roleplaying sense and a character creation sense.  I'm not saying there should be a cost (Statistical, factional, etc) but I think there's no harm in having more freedom.  Even though no one can ever agree on what makes a good sandbox, isn't the core ideal that everyone agrees makes a good sandbox "More Freedom"?

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  Trudge34

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

7/13/13 3:59:33 PM#57

I don't think at character selection every race / class combination should be available. To me it represents racial differences in philosophy, teachings and the gods that that particular race worships that need to be separated at start.

What I would love to see is a way to change it later on. Using the Dark Elf example, there should be deity quests to change what god you worship and then allow you to switch to a class under that deity. This would allow that pariah mechanic for those who want to do it, as well as some notoriety among the server for someone who's put in the time to do that. Something that would be fairly unique and rare and a real accomplishment to do. Maybe even seeing some physical appearance change as you gain favor with the other god.

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
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  cheyane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2337

7/13/13 4:03:46 PM#58
I really hope not . I want it to be strict in its adherence to good and evil.

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  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2887

7/13/13 4:06:38 PM#59
Originally posted by cheyane
I really hope not . I want it to be strict in its adherence to good and evil.

Define "an evil individual" . Answer well or face the following statement "Well you have EQ 1 for that."

  wizardanim

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/07
Posts: 279

7/13/13 4:33:04 PM#60
Originally posted by Gholos

I have make a similar post before, but i think i was misunderstand (probably for my bad english), so i try to explain more clearly:

do you think that all races can do all classes or you prefer some restrictions as EQ1? 

I think that some races should have limitations due their ability scores or alligment, so for example i think that an ogre or troll, that are supposed to be stupid and clumsy shouldnt be allowed to do a wizard , monk or thief, an high elf that is supposed to be a good race shouldnt be allowed to play a necromancer or a shadow knight (i know that we dont know what classes will be in EQN so these are only example).

I personaly like the restrictions of EQ1, the only thing that i disapprove of EQ was that a troll can join a group with an high elf or a shadow knight play together with a paladin and so on.

I voted no, but I do think it will depend on how they put the emphasis on classes, skills, and itemization.  

If items are restricted to classes, like in EQ, we will probably see more restrictions on class abilities and less customization of character abilities (more itemization and things like 'hero's forge').  

If the system was more like AO, for instance, where each class/race was able to scale up skill points at a different rate, we would see more restrictions on skill usage and not as much on class abilities or items.

In a way, I like AO system.  You could pick a flimzy race, and be a tank if you sunk enough time into figuring out how to make them durable (items/skills/etc).

To your comment, a Troll would not be a wizard, but with this example, a Troll would just not be as smart as an Erudite, but much more durable.  They would rely much more on items and skills to augment their mental abilities, but have a very easy time taking a hit.  Erudites would need to invest more into taking a hit - might even out later on.  I realize this is very distant from the EQ idea, but I don't think we are going to see much familiarity in these systems come Aug 2nd.

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