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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Poll: Should classes be armor/weapon limited?

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110 posts found
  steelheartx

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/08/06
Posts: 380

7/13/13 7:52:22 AM#61
Most definitely yes.

Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at www.grievanceguild.com !

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

7/13/13 7:57:43 AM#62
Originally posted by Whesky

To me it's more important the game has a sense of self, it's own "realism" defined within the game world.

Very good point, because in the end that is where the focus of one's comparison usually is - here and now. If the physics and rules of the game world seem to fit the game world, it becomes an immersive environment, regardless of the physics or rules of any other world or universe.

  xAPOCx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 749

7/13/13 8:04:45 AM#63
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Whesky

To me it's more important the game has a sense of self, it's own "realism" defined within the game world.

Very good point, because in the end that is where the focus of one's comparison usually is - here and now. If the physics and rules of the game world seem to fit the game world, it becomes an immersive environment, regardless of the physics or rules of any other world or universe.

I would side on this aspect too. I don't want to be predefined by some conception of what is and what isn't "realism" in a MMO.

 

"Variety is the spice of life" my MMO life. =)

  killahh

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 449

As famous as the unknown soldier

7/13/13 8:07:37 AM#64
Definitely yes Sorry it's been done already, and is IMHO the number one reason there is no community anymore. Everyone wants to be able to do anything. I pray EQN does not do this, have classes with unique abilities, promote grouping, and say no to the destructive influence of the greatest threat to this genre : Lazy, antisocial people.

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  Scorchien

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 1010

7/13/13 8:10:25 AM#65
Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.
  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2330

7/13/13 8:21:15 AM#66
Originally posted by Scorchien
Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.

I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life :). And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.

  Scorchien

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 1010

7/13/13 8:28:30 AM#67
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien
Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.

I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life :). And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.

Which completly explains this first Hompage art that is ripped right from EQ Lore and History , that also shows class and weapom /armor restrictions... but i know that dont mean jack either ..aint that rich 

 

https://www.everquestnext.com/

  Reznechek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/13
Posts: 11

7/13/13 8:35:27 AM#68
Chose 'no' because it's ridiculous that a wizard cannot physically put on a suit of chain mail, however I also think it's ridiculous that a wizard with 30 strength can wield a 2hs, wear heavy plate armor and run and swing just as effectively as an ogre warrior with 100 strength with the same amount of skill. That's why a character's attributes should tie in with their skill on how effective they are i.e. Ogre minimum starting strength is 70 and max starting intelligence is 30 or gnome minimum intelligence is 70 and max starting strength is 30.
  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2330

7/13/13 8:41:22 AM#69
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien
Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.

I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life :). And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.

Which completly explains this first Hompage art that is ripped right from EQ Lore and History , that also shows class and weapom /armor restrictions... but i know that dont mean jack either ..aint that rich 

 

https://www.everquestnext.com/

Yeah... classes... what looks like a rogue in plate mail, a warrior in leather armor and a ranger with a greatweapon. People see what they want to see, a good example is this:

  DamianoV

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/04
Posts: 12

7/13/13 8:44:39 AM#70
Just wanted to hit on some of the high (low?) points from the thread so far... My apologies to any who read the following and are not familiar with all the background, debate counterpoints, and references... but it would be a five page post to try to explain it all in depth.  I suspect most here are quite familiar with the arguments on all of this, both pro and con.
 
RPG tradition
I can't speak definitively to all the possible variants of D&D, obviously, but all the core rulebooks I have on the shelf (I've been playing pen-and-paper RPGs since 1978), ranging from Basic D&D blue box, through AD&D, 3e, 3.5/OGL, and 4e, apply strong weapon and armor restrictions to certain classes, in particular Wizards/Magic-Users.  Better examples of games which do not include such limits are RuneQuest and Rolemaster, although they do have other subsystems which in particular discourage armor use by magicians (encumbrance penalties to spell casting, high development point costs for armor/weapon skills, etc.)
 
Balance
The tank-mage and dex-monkey eras in UO have obviously had a lasting impact on MMO design for many years, and I think most who actually endured it would agree it is for a good reason.  I do personally think, however, that there are a variety of methods to allow more exotic combinations while maintaining effective limits on overall power and avoiding any overpowered "Flavor of the Month"/all-characters-are-the-same-because-they-all-have-the-"best"-build syndrome. 
 
I should mention that I have heard multiple devs offer presentations/blog posts/forum posts over the years warning that more options=less distinctiveness, as everyone migrates to the "best" option over time... to the point that I think it has become a truism in the industry, whether necessarily true or not.
 
My opinion
Based on what I've seen/read re EQN so far, I suspect it will retain strong class-based armor/weapon restrictions, but offer some relief thru multi-classing, much like D&D.  I'd like to see some more experimentation with alternative systems based on other RPG systems/traditions, but I strongly doubt EQN will be the title to do so... it's focus for innovation is elsewhere, I suspect.

Blogging semi-regularly at http://damianov.wordpress.com

  Scorchien

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 1010

7/13/13 8:49:18 AM#71
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien
Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.

I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life :). And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.

Which completly explains this first Hompage art that is ripped right from EQ Lore and History , that also shows class and weapom /armor restrictions... but i know that dont mean jack either ..aint that rich 

 

https://www.everquestnext.com/

Yeah... classes... what looks like a rogue in plate mail, a warrior in leather armor and a ranger with a greatweapon. People see what they want to see, a good example is this:

and in some cases , People dont see what they dont want to see.. like now

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2330

7/13/13 8:53:56 AM#72
Originally posted by DamianoV
Just wanted to hit on some of the high (low?) points from the thread so far... My apologies to any who read the following and are not familiar with all the background, debate counterpoints, and references... but it would be a five page post to try to explain it all in depth.  I suspect most here are quite familiar with the arguments on all of this, both pro and con.
 
RPG tradition
I can't speak definitively to all the possible variants of D&D, obviously, but all the core rulebooks I have on the shelf (I've been playing pen-and-paper RPGs since 1978), ranging from Basic D&D blue box, through AD&D, 3e, 3.5/OGL, and 4e, apply strong weapon and armor restrictions to certain classes, in particular Wizards/Magic-Users.  Better examples of games which do not include such limits are RuneQuest and Rolemaster, although they do have other subsystems which in particular discourage armor use by magicians (encumbrance penalties to spell casting, high development point costs for armor/weapon skills, etc.)
 
Balance
The tank-mage and dex-monkey eras in UO have obviously had a lasting impact on MMO design for many years, and I think most who actually endured it would agree it is for a good reason.  I do personally think, however, that there are a variety of methods to allow more exotic combinations while maintaining effective limits on overall power and avoiding any overpowered "Flavor of the Month"/all-characters-are-the-same-because-they-all-have-the-"best"-build syndrome. 
 
I should mention that I have heard multiple devs offer presentations/blog posts/forum posts over the years warning that more options=less distinctiveness, as everyone migrates to the "best" option over time... to the point that I think it has become a truism in the industry, whether necessarily true or not.
 
My opinion
Based on what I've seen/read re EQN so far, I suspect it will retain strong class-based armor/weapon restrictions, but offer some relief thru multi-classing, much like D&D.  I'd like to see some more experimentation with alternative systems based on other RPG systems/traditions, but I strongly doubt EQN will be the title to do so... it's focus for innovation is elsewhere, I suspect.

First off I was never suggesting using magic and heavy plates (for example) would be the best build, it would have higher defense but have penalties to spell power and possibly mana regeneration to offset the brick like nature of its defense... basically you could have any build you want but it would not lend itself to the flavor of the month builds which if I may point out still exist in games even with a fixed class system ( the paladin at one point in WoW was impossible to beat in PVP for example ).

The system I'd want is one where nothing is better and options are given for the user, be it in a multi-class system or in a freeform profession system with a cap on how many points you can invest where. The min/max builds will always exist but in a organic system you have the tools to try and counter it and not just wait for the devs to fix it.

Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien
Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.

I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life :). And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.

Which completly explains this first Hompage art that is ripped right from EQ Lore and History , that also shows class and weapom /armor restrictions... but i know that dont mean jack either ..aint that rich 

 

https://www.everquestnext.com/

Yeah... classes... what looks like a rogue in plate mail, a warrior in leather armor and a ranger with a greatweapon. People see what they want to see, a good example is this:

and in some cases , People dont see what they dont want to see.. like now

All sandbox or sandbox-like games have a degree of class flexibility beyond that found in themepark games, enjoy your illusions I will be waiting for you in-game when the time comes in a plated ranger with a maul.

  Scorchien

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 1010

7/13/13 9:00:57 AM#73
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by DamianoV
Just wanted to hit on some of the high (low?) points from the thread so far... My apologies to any who read the following and are not familiar with all the background, debate counterpoints, and references... but it would be a five page post to try to explain it all in depth.  I suspect most here are quite familiar with the arguments on all of this, both pro and con.
 
RPG tradition
I can't speak definitively to all the possible variants of D&D, obviously, but all the core rulebooks I have on the shelf (I've been playing pen-and-paper RPGs since 1978), ranging from Basic D&D blue box, through AD&D, 3e, 3.5/OGL, and 4e, apply strong weapon and armor restrictions to certain classes, in particular Wizards/Magic-Users.  Better examples of games which do not include such limits are RuneQuest and Rolemaster, although they do have other subsystems which in particular discourage armor use by magicians (encumbrance penalties to spell casting, high development point costs for armor/weapon skills, etc.)
 
Balance
The tank-mage and dex-monkey eras in UO have obviously had a lasting impact on MMO design for many years, and I think most who actually endured it would agree it is for a good reason.  I do personally think, however, that there are a variety of methods to allow more exotic combinations while maintaining effective limits on overall power and avoiding any overpowered "Flavor of the Month"/all-characters-are-the-same-because-they-all-have-the-"best"-build syndrome. 
 
I should mention that I have heard multiple devs offer presentations/blog posts/forum posts over the years warning that more options=less distinctiveness, as everyone migrates to the "best" option over time... to the point that I think it has become a truism in the industry, whether necessarily true or not.
 
My opinion
Based on what I've seen/read re EQN so far, I suspect it will retain strong class-based armor/weapon restrictions, but offer some relief thru multi-classing, much like D&D.  I'd like to see some more experimentation with alternative systems based on other RPG systems/traditions, but I strongly doubt EQN will be the title to do so... it's focus for innovation is elsewhere, I suspect.

First off I was never suggesting using magic and heavy plates (for example) would be the best build, it would have higher defense but have penalties to spell power and possibly mana regeneration to offset the brick like nature of its defense... basically you could have any build you want but it would not lend itself to the flavor of the month builds which if I may point out still exist in games even with a fixed class system ( the paladin at one point in WoW was impossible to beat in PVP for example ).

The system I'd want is one where nothing is better and options are given for the user, be it in a multi-class system or in a freeform profession system with a cap on how many points you can invest where. The min/max builds will always exist but in a organic system you have the tools to try and counter it and not just wait for the devs to fix it.

Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien
Absolutley yes, And Norraths Lore and History dictate that , there is no way they have an open system ,people who want that sort if mess will have to look elsewhere.

I am rather doubtful the lore dictates that people be fixed in a role for life :). And even if were last I checked EQN is supposed to be a reboot of sorts so Lore and History count for jack :P.

Which completly explains this first Hompage art that is ripped right from EQ Lore and History , that also shows class and weapom /armor restrictions... but i know that dont mean jack either ..aint that rich 

 

https://www.everquestnext.com/

Yeah... classes... what looks like a rogue in plate mail, a warrior in leather armor and a ranger with a greatweapon. People see what they want to see, a good example is this:

and in some cases , People dont see what they dont want to see.. like now

All sandbox or sandbox-like games have a degree of class flexibility beyond that found in themepark games, enjoy your illusions I will be waiting for you in-game when the time comes in a plated ranger with a maul.

Nahh you will be restricted to chain ..lmao

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2330

7/13/13 9:07:15 AM#74
Originally posted by Scorchien

Nahh you will be restricted to chain ..lmao

Except your image betrays plate-like armor on the ranger-like character ;) (leather is bulkier than that and chain has...well chains).

  Scorchien

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 1010

7/13/13 9:15:29 AM#75
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien

Nahh you will be restricted to chain ..lmao

Except your image betrays plate-like armor on the ranger-like character ;) (leather is bulkier than that and chain has...well chains).

well obviously you know less about EQ classes than i thought , maybe stick to a subject you know more about like folding paper.. or go research EQ rangers a bit

  drowelf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/25/04
Posts: 100

7/13/13 9:16:27 AM#76
you know if you like a fantasy game then live by the fantasy rules, after all if you cant then there is Champions or DC universe online to play.. All I am saying you have to live by the game's rules  you don't have to like them or agree to them all.
  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2330

7/13/13 9:24:47 AM#77
Originally posted by Scorchien
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scorchien

Nahh you will be restricted to chain ..lmao

Except your image betrays plate-like armor on the ranger-like character ;) (leather is bulkier than that and chain has...well chains).

well obviously you know less about EQ classes than i thought , maybe stick to a subject you know more about like folding paper.. or go research EQ rangers a bit

Except reboot :). Now kindly stop acting like you're superior in some way, I've seen better arguments from someone half your age.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3449

7/13/13 9:28:49 AM#78

You can have a skillbased system (no classes) and still have armour/weapon restrictions. Just make the restrictions skill based.

So for example, wearing plate will give you a penalty for using magic related skills. Or as another example, wearing cloth or leather armour, gives you a bonus in movement skills. Use your imagination. 

This way you don't need classes and anyone can mix skills the way they like, but still have EQ style feeling. This is just to show that you dont need classes. Then you could still consider having skills to alleviate certain penalties, but that simply costs skillpoints which you won't be able to put somewhere else.

For a sandbox game, this would be a lot better then themeparky classes imo. But this is also more difficult to balance for the devs I guess.

 

  g0m0rrah

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/23/13
Posts: 179

7/13/13 9:34:31 AM#79
Originally posted by Aelious

Unless a gotcha moment is coming at SoE Live there will indeed be classes per the updated lineup

https://www.soe.com/soelive/lineup.vm

 

My question is should classes be locked in to what weapons and armor they can use?

 

Personally I like the idea of making my character my own.  I can live with being tied to a specific class (until I switch via multi-classing, ahem) but I would like some flexibility.  Bards did get to wear plate in EQ after all.  If I want to play a "Battle Mage" should I be able to roll a Wizard, wear plate and wield a 2h?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

  In my opinion anarchy online did it correctly by allowing you to skill into any weapon or armor.  There should always be hard choices, should I spend precious stats or skill points to wear this armor and neglect my class abilities?  Should a mage be able to skill into plate as easily as a knight, maybe, maybe not, but what I do know is it should be a hard choice and not simply " platemail is the best so im skilling for it at no hindrance ".

  With a limited number of skill points comes finite choices and I see no reason to stop people from creating a mage tank thats a lot more melee than mage.  The problem usually arises when armor has no real effect on game play and sadly it usually doesnt.  Normally platemail and cloth have very little difference in PvP or PvE as far as damage mitigation is concerned.

 Buffs are also a huge problem. If I go mage and spec for chainmail and melee damage, I am doing it for a reason.  If mage buffs are easily cast and scattered throughout every class, what becomes the reason I chose melee mage.  Each class has to have abilities that are viable depending on the build you choose.  If I have strength buff can only be cast on a single target then with this limitation in mind choices can be made.  Maybe I go pure mage and do not take the strength buff, or I take it to buff a single friend, or I take it to buff myself and spec melee.

 I believe that every class should have abilities designed for a multitude of player design choices. If I want to be an arcane archer and go mage and use a bow, there should be benefits and drawbacks.  There should exist spells and abilities that will benefit me and will not.

 I would like to see this game become a game of not only advantages but limitations as well. I want to see a limited number of skill options active at one time.  I hate games where you have so many abilities that you must set up macros or have 5 bars full of them.  I would love to see passives being chose by the player and placed on the skill bar so that you sacrifice for this always active ability. 

 Player design options should be the focal point of any role playing game. Sadly its almost always neglected and  linear progression being the easier option, is the way developers choose to go.

 

  Lokero

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 324

7/13/13 9:42:27 AM#80
Originally posted by Gholos

Should classes be armor/weapon limited?

Absolutely yes, i m totaly for rpg tradition.

 

I dont want to see in EQN wizards that wear plate armor, rogues that wield 2h swords and similar stupid things.

 

 

I'm okay with seeing those things.  I think people should be able to equip anything.  I just don't think they should be particularly effective with said out-of-category stuff.

I think a rogue should be able to wield a 2h if they want to.  They just shouldn't be allowed to backstab or get any benefits from the weapon.

Now, if it were a skill-based system, where the rogue could focus on skilling up a 2h instead of a dagger, and they wanted to do that for some reason, then they could be effective with that weapon... but again, nothing stupid like being able to backstab and stealth properly with one.

In the case of wizards in plate armor, there was a reason this wasn't allowed typically in RPGs/D&D.  The reason being that a wizard/mage couldn't perform the appropriate physical motions and gestures of weaving a spell with their hands/arms if they were in stiff armor that limited their range of motion, etc.

So, let a wiz wear plate armor and wield a big, bad flaming 2h axe... just don't let them be able to cast their main spells while doing so.  Let them cast a few things like weapon buffs and damage shields while doing it, but not be able to cast a fireball or super nuke, etc.

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